Cruise liner Queen Victoria forced to lower British Red Ensign flag on arrival in Argentina

Queen Victoria in the Faroe Isles

Queen Victoria in the Faroe Isles

First published in News Daily Echo: Photograph of the Author by , Crime Reporter

A SOUTHAMPTON cruise liner was forced to lower its UK flag as it docked in Argentina.

Luxury liner Queen Victoria was told that it would “face trouble” if it did not take down the Red Ensign while it was docked in Buenos Aires.

Argentina has been accused of insulting Britain by taking such action, which is thought was an attempt to stoke up tensions of sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.

Captain Inger Olsen was informed of a law banning the flying of the flag and she complied with it in order to protect the safety of the passengers, who are enjoying a voyage around South America.

A Cunard spokesperson said: “As requested by the port authorities whilst Queen Victoria was in Argentinian waters the Cunard flag was flown rather than the Red Ensign.”

Comments (42)

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9:29am Thu 13 Feb 14

smiler52 says...

they need to grow up
they need to grow up smiler52
  • Score: 37

9:36am Thu 13 Feb 14

huckit P says...

If there are so many problems when going into an Argentinian port why bother? Take the business away and go elsewhere.
If there are so many problems when going into an Argentinian port why bother? Take the business away and go elsewhere. huckit P
  • Score: 49

9:40am Thu 13 Feb 14

Brite Spark says...

This happened nearly 3 weeks ago. What the skipper should have done on departure is stuck his nose up to the locals and flown as many union jacks as possible from every mast and yard arm on the ship. Cunard should now take their wealthy passengers and trade elsewhere.
This happened nearly 3 weeks ago. What the skipper should have done on departure is stuck his nose up to the locals and flown as many union jacks as possible from every mast and yard arm on the ship. Cunard should now take their wealthy passengers and trade elsewhere. Brite Spark
  • Score: 46

9:47am Thu 13 Feb 14

BritBob says...

The Argentines have a make believe government statistics office called INDEC that shows annual inflation is running at 11 percent when the real figure is closer to 30 percent. The country is in a lowly 106th position in the Global Corruption Index while neighbouring a Chile and Uruguay have respectable scores around the 20 mark. Argentina has a fantasy claim on the Falklands which is contrary to international law. Just some of the reasons to give Argentina a miss.
The Argentines have a make believe government statistics office called INDEC that shows annual inflation is running at 11 percent when the real figure is closer to 30 percent. The country is in a lowly 106th position in the Global Corruption Index while neighbouring a Chile and Uruguay have respectable scores around the 20 mark. Argentina has a fantasy claim on the Falklands which is contrary to international law. Just some of the reasons to give Argentina a miss. BritBob
  • Score: 27

9:48am Thu 13 Feb 14

dockboy says...

I'm sure this will all be resolved once their islands are returned to them.
I'm sure this will all be resolved once their islands are returned to them. dockboy
  • Score: -64

9:48am Thu 13 Feb 14

Huey says...

I have some Argentine friends who visited in January, they say that the population is angry with the government about domestic issues and that no one gives a fig about these islands - their govt keeps bringing it up to distract attention away from the real issues.
I have some Argentine friends who visited in January, they say that the population is angry with the government about domestic issues and that no one gives a fig about these islands - their govt keeps bringing it up to distract attention away from the real issues. Huey
  • Score: 39

10:01am Thu 13 Feb 14

michaelwhite says...

Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.
Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo. michaelwhite
  • Score: 8

10:19am Thu 13 Feb 14

hulla baloo says...

and we still give money in the form of aid to them, and they still take it.
Dont know who are worse, our Government or theirs.
and we still give money in the form of aid to them, and they still take it. Dont know who are worse, our Government or theirs. hulla baloo
  • Score: 11

10:25am Thu 13 Feb 14

ToastyTea says...

um who cares
um who cares ToastyTea
  • Score: -17

10:26am Thu 13 Feb 14

mr_lee_white@hotmail.com says...

Mike is absolutely correct. MS Queen Victoria is flagged in Hamilton, Bermuda and has been since 2011... Does not fly a Red Ensign, it's similar but not actually ours.

So perhaps the story should read "Argentines fail flag recognition 101"

Perhaps Argentina are claiming sovereignty in Bermuda too? :o)

Not really a news story though is it?
Mike is absolutely correct. MS Queen Victoria is flagged in Hamilton, Bermuda and has been since 2011... Does not fly a Red Ensign, it's similar but not actually ours. So perhaps the story should read "Argentines fail flag recognition 101" Perhaps Argentina are claiming sovereignty in Bermuda too? :o) Not really a news story though is it? mr_lee_white@hotmail.com
  • Score: 12

10:29am Thu 13 Feb 14

Brite Spark says...

Huey wrote:
I have some Argentine friends who visited in January, they say that the population is angry with the government about domestic issues and that no one gives a fig about these islands - their govt keeps bringing it up to distract attention away from the real issues.
Sounds just like 1982 all over again.
[quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: I have some Argentine friends who visited in January, they say that the population is angry with the government about domestic issues and that no one gives a fig about these islands - their govt keeps bringing it up to distract attention away from the real issues.[/p][/quote]Sounds just like 1982 all over again. Brite Spark
  • Score: 4

10:37am Thu 13 Feb 14

crazyoldman says...

Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?
Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something? crazyoldman
  • Score: -5

11:01am Thu 13 Feb 14

Brite Spark says...

crazyoldman wrote:
Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?
Fair point, the ship was in South America so why show a photo of it in Egypt.
[quote][p][bold]crazyoldman[/bold] wrote: Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?[/p][/quote]Fair point, the ship was in South America so why show a photo of it in Egypt. Brite Spark
  • Score: 2

11:25am Thu 13 Feb 14

Tallship says...

Brite Spark wrote:
This happened nearly 3 weeks ago. What the skipper should have done on departure is stuck his nose up to the locals and flown as many union jacks as possible from every mast and yard arm on the ship. Cunard should now take their wealthy passengers and trade elsewhere.
When will people learn the flag the Argentinians are upset about is the 'Union' flag not the Union Jack.

The flag can only be called the Union Jack when it is flown on a flagpole on a military ship.
[quote][p][bold]Brite Spark[/bold] wrote: This happened nearly 3 weeks ago. What the skipper should have done on departure is stuck his nose up to the locals and flown as many union jacks as possible from every mast and yard arm on the ship. Cunard should now take their wealthy passengers and trade elsewhere.[/p][/quote]When will people learn the flag the Argentinians are upset about is the 'Union' flag not the Union Jack. The flag can only be called the Union Jack when it is flown on a flagpole on a military ship. Tallship
  • Score: -11

11:39am Thu 13 Feb 14

Brite Spark says...

It's called the 'Jack' when it is flown from a mast on any vessel or on a flagstaff ashore: - Good day.
It's called the 'Jack' when it is flown from a mast on any vessel or on a flagstaff ashore: - Good day. Brite Spark
  • Score: 13

11:47am Thu 13 Feb 14

Mr E says...

I hope the Captain 'accidentally' nudged the button that dumps the bilges and septic tanks as he left the port ....
I hope the Captain 'accidentally' nudged the button that dumps the bilges and septic tanks as he left the port .... Mr E
  • Score: 11

12:05pm Thu 13 Feb 14

Dan Kerins says...

michaelwhite wrote:
Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.
It is Cunard themselves who have described the flag as the Red Ensign, as you can see if the quote from their spokesperson in the article.

Obviously, we trust that Cunard know which flag is flying from their own ship, so report the information accordingly.
[quote][p][bold]michaelwhite[/bold] wrote: Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.[/p][/quote]It is Cunard themselves who have described the flag as the Red Ensign, as you can see if the quote from their spokesperson in the article. Obviously, we trust that Cunard know which flag is flying from their own ship, so report the information accordingly. Dan Kerins
  • Score: 9

12:14pm Thu 13 Feb 14

george h says...

michaelwhite wrote:
Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.
I'd have expected that even the lordly New Labour Blairite Admiral Lord West to know his flags from his elbow, however it seems he doesn't. Entirely typical of Blairite no-nothings.

The vessel has been registered in Hamilton, Bermuda since 2011 and could not lawfully fly the Red Duster in Buenos Aires.

I'd also expect a British officer to have given the Argentines a dusty answer too. However, with the Queen Victoria captained by a Faroese-born Danish national and a woman to boot, rolling over to unlawful demands is entirely to be expected.
[quote][p][bold]michaelwhite[/bold] wrote: Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.[/p][/quote]I'd have expected that even the lordly New Labour Blairite Admiral Lord West to know his flags from his elbow, however it seems he doesn't. Entirely typical of Blairite no-nothings. The vessel has been registered in Hamilton, Bermuda since 2011 and could not lawfully fly the Red Duster in Buenos Aires. I'd also expect a British officer to have given the Argentines a dusty answer too. However, with the Queen Victoria captained by a Faroese-born Danish national and a woman to boot, rolling over to unlawful demands is entirely to be expected. george h
  • Score: -4

12:19pm Thu 13 Feb 14

george h says...

george h wrote:
michaelwhite wrote:
Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.
I'd have expected that even the lordly New Labour Blairite Admiral Lord West to know his flags from his elbow, however it seems he doesn't. Entirely typical of Blairite no-nothings.

The vessel has been registered in Hamilton, Bermuda since 2011 and could not lawfully fly the Red Duster in Buenos Aires.

I'd also expect a British officer to have given the Argentines a dusty answer too. However, with the Queen Victoria captained by a Faroese-born Danish national and a woman to boot, rolling over to unlawful demands is entirely to be expected.
Furthermore, the Argentine demand was unlawful even by their own standards. Their local law on visiting vessels applies only to ships that have transited to an Argentine port from the Falkland Islands; and the Queen Vic had never called there.

Maybe the author of these reports, the noble Blairite Lord West needs to go back to nautical school and retake his exams.
[quote][p][bold]george h[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]michaelwhite[/bold] wrote: Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.[/p][/quote]I'd have expected that even the lordly New Labour Blairite Admiral Lord West to know his flags from his elbow, however it seems he doesn't. Entirely typical of Blairite no-nothings. The vessel has been registered in Hamilton, Bermuda since 2011 and could not lawfully fly the Red Duster in Buenos Aires. I'd also expect a British officer to have given the Argentines a dusty answer too. However, with the Queen Victoria captained by a Faroese-born Danish national and a woman to boot, rolling over to unlawful demands is entirely to be expected.[/p][/quote]Furthermore, the Argentine demand was unlawful even by their own standards. Their local law on visiting vessels applies only to ships that have transited to an Argentine port from the Falkland Islands; and the Queen Vic had never called there. Maybe the author of these reports, the noble Blairite Lord West needs to go back to nautical school and retake his exams. george h
  • Score: 0

12:23pm Thu 13 Feb 14

george h says...

crazyoldman wrote:
Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?
Try a better picture taken in Southampton, here: http://commons.wikim
edia.org/wiki/File:Q
ueen_Victoria-1.jpg
[quote][p][bold]crazyoldman[/bold] wrote: Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?[/p][/quote]Try a better picture taken in Southampton, here: http://commons.wikim edia.org/wiki/File:Q ueen_Victoria-1.jpg george h
  • Score: -1

12:47pm Thu 13 Feb 14

derek james says...

no doubt it's only a matter of time before they reclaim the islands by force or otherwise,we've got no navy to speak of, no carriers or even aircraft that can fly from carriers.the usa is more sympathetic to argentina than the uk.all the lives that were lost in 82 will have been in vain if that happens.
no doubt it's only a matter of time before they reclaim the islands by force or otherwise,we've got no navy to speak of, no carriers or even aircraft that can fly from carriers.the usa is more sympathetic to argentina than the uk.all the lives that were lost in 82 will have been in vain if that happens. derek james
  • Score: -3

1:24pm Thu 13 Feb 14

Mr E says...

derek james wrote:
no doubt it's only a matter of time before they reclaim the islands by force or otherwise,we've got no navy to speak of, no carriers or even aircraft that can fly from carriers.the usa is more sympathetic to argentina than the uk.all the lives that were lost in 82 will have been in vain if that happens.
have you seen the state of the Argentine Navy .... http://globaldefence
analysis.com/2013/01
/22/argentinedestroy
ersinking/
[quote][p][bold]derek james[/bold] wrote: no doubt it's only a matter of time before they reclaim the islands by force or otherwise,we've got no navy to speak of, no carriers or even aircraft that can fly from carriers.the usa is more sympathetic to argentina than the uk.all the lives that were lost in 82 will have been in vain if that happens.[/p][/quote]have you seen the state of the Argentine Navy .... http://globaldefence analysis.com/2013/01 /22/argentinedestroy ersinking/ Mr E
  • Score: 5

1:59pm Thu 13 Feb 14

Ellwood says...

Huey wrote:
I have some Argentine friends who visited in January, they say that the population is angry with the government about domestic issues and that no one gives a fig about these islands - their govt keeps bringing it up to distract attention away from the real issues.
.......... the trouble is, as history tells us, that it is usually the petty bickering and squabbles over trivial issues, that start the wars.
As others have said, better to take the business elsewhere.
[quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: I have some Argentine friends who visited in January, they say that the population is angry with the government about domestic issues and that no one gives a fig about these islands - their govt keeps bringing it up to distract attention away from the real issues.[/p][/quote].......... the trouble is, as history tells us, that it is usually the petty bickering and squabbles over trivial issues, that start the wars. As others have said, better to take the business elsewhere. Ellwood
  • Score: 7

2:43pm Thu 13 Feb 14

Inform Al says...

I've decided that my reaction will be to not eat any more corned beef, thank God.
I've decided that my reaction will be to not eat any more corned beef, thank God. Inform Al
  • Score: 1

3:33pm Thu 13 Feb 14

X Old Bill says...

Some people here are confused.
Bermuda is part of the 'Red Ensign Group' - Ships registered in Hamilton are permitted to fly either the plain Red Ensign or the defaced Bermudian Ensign.
P & O, Cunard and Princess ships are all permitted to fly an un-defaced Red Ensign while visiting foreign ports, including UK ports. - It is legal for them to do so.
Since the invocation of the Gaucho Rivero bill in Argentina it has been policy of these Companies to fly the defaced Bermudian Ensign while visiting any Argentine ports even though it only affects Ushuaia.
Failure to make this concession will be unlikely to result in a fine but more likely in the dockers refusing to tie the ship up resulting in the Port losing revenue.
Some people here are confused. Bermuda is part of the 'Red Ensign Group' - Ships registered in Hamilton are permitted to fly either the plain Red Ensign or the defaced Bermudian Ensign. P & O, Cunard and Princess ships are all permitted to fly an un-defaced Red Ensign while visiting foreign ports, including UK ports. - It is legal for them to do so. Since the invocation of the Gaucho Rivero bill in Argentina it has been policy of these Companies to fly the defaced Bermudian Ensign while visiting any Argentine ports even though it only affects Ushuaia. Failure to make this concession will be unlikely to result in a fine but more likely in the dockers refusing to tie the ship up resulting in the Port losing revenue. X Old Bill
  • Score: 3

3:44pm Thu 13 Feb 14

derek james says...

Mr E wrote:
derek james wrote:
no doubt it's only a matter of time before they reclaim the islands by force or otherwise,we've got no navy to speak of, no carriers or even aircraft that can fly from carriers.the usa is more sympathetic to argentina than the uk.all the lives that were lost in 82 will have been in vain if that happens.
have you seen the state of the Argentine Navy .... http://globaldefence

analysis.com/2013/01

/22/argentinedestroy

ersinking/
ours isn't that great they recently had to scrounge a bit from a turkish scrapyard,
[quote][p][bold]Mr E[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]derek james[/bold] wrote: no doubt it's only a matter of time before they reclaim the islands by force or otherwise,we've got no navy to speak of, no carriers or even aircraft that can fly from carriers.the usa is more sympathetic to argentina than the uk.all the lives that were lost in 82 will have been in vain if that happens.[/p][/quote]have you seen the state of the Argentine Navy .... http://globaldefence analysis.com/2013/01 /22/argentinedestroy ersinking/[/p][/quote]ours isn't that great they recently had to scrounge a bit from a turkish scrapyard, derek james
  • Score: 2

4:13pm Thu 13 Feb 14

St.Ray says...

michaelwhite wrote:
Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.
The flag of Bermuda is, in effect, the Red Ensign with the Bermuda crest added. The DE is only reporting what was reported in just about all the UK media. But, the real story is the gutless response by Cunard, which was once a renowned British Shipping Line & is now an American Cruise line masquerading as British. As ever with the Americans they will do what suits the Americans. Compare the latest snub by Obama in relation to the "so called" Special relationship! It is only special to the Yanks when they need a stooge & the UK politicians tow the line, think of Blair/Bush & Iraq & Afghanistan
[quote][p][bold]michaelwhite[/bold] wrote: Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.[/p][/quote]The flag of Bermuda is, in effect, the Red Ensign with the Bermuda crest added. The DE is only reporting what was reported in just about all the UK media. But, the real story is the gutless response by Cunard, which was once a renowned British Shipping Line & is now an American Cruise line masquerading as British. As ever with the Americans they will do what suits the Americans. Compare the latest snub by Obama in relation to the "so called" Special relationship! It is only special to the Yanks when they need a stooge & the UK politicians tow the line, think of Blair/Bush & Iraq & Afghanistan St.Ray
  • Score: 0

6:24pm Thu 13 Feb 14

From the sidelines says...

dockboy wrote:
I'm sure this will all be resolved once their islands are returned to them.
I would applaud your trolling, but you failed to get a single bite.
[quote][p][bold]dockboy[/bold] wrote: I'm sure this will all be resolved once their islands are returned to them.[/p][/quote]I would applaud your trolling, but you failed to get a single bite. From the sidelines
  • Score: 2

8:20pm Thu 13 Feb 14

Saintly Sam says...

derek james wrote:
no doubt it's only a matter of time before they reclaim the islands by force or otherwise,we've got no navy to speak of, no carriers or even aircraft that can fly from carriers.the usa is more sympathetic to argentina than the uk.all the lives that were lost in 82 will have been in vain if that happens.
What we do have is a nuclear powered submarine prowling around in the south Atlantic, they cannot even think of invading with her on patrol.
[quote][p][bold]derek james[/bold] wrote: no doubt it's only a matter of time before they reclaim the islands by force or otherwise,we've got no navy to speak of, no carriers or even aircraft that can fly from carriers.the usa is more sympathetic to argentina than the uk.all the lives that were lost in 82 will have been in vain if that happens.[/p][/quote]What we do have is a nuclear powered submarine prowling around in the south Atlantic, they cannot even think of invading with her on patrol. Saintly Sam
  • Score: 1

10:36pm Thu 13 Feb 14

Eric_Cartman says...

michaelwhite wrote:
Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.
Bermudan ships will fly a Red Ensign. It can have the Bermuda seal in the fly or not, it's up to the company. My shipping company has at least one ship registered there and it flies the Red Ensign and do IOM ships.
[quote][p][bold]michaelwhite[/bold] wrote: Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.[/p][/quote]Bermudan ships will fly a Red Ensign. It can have the Bermuda seal in the fly or not, it's up to the company. My shipping company has at least one ship registered there and it flies the Red Ensign and do IOM ships. Eric_Cartman
  • Score: 1

10:45pm Thu 13 Feb 14

Eric_Cartman says...

I went there on a cargo ship called 'British Innovator', registered in Douglas, last year. We kept our Red Ensign up throughout. I guess they didnt quibble as we carried 80,000 tonnes of LNG for them which would have been welcome in most other places too. It's all about image and that stupid bint of a premier they have trying to make headlines...
I went there on a cargo ship called 'British Innovator', registered in Douglas, last year. We kept our Red Ensign up throughout. I guess they didnt quibble as we carried 80,000 tonnes of LNG for them which would have been welcome in most other places too. It's all about image and that stupid bint of a premier they have trying to make headlines... Eric_Cartman
  • Score: 1

10:04am Fri 14 Feb 14

Grabul says...

OK lets get some fact right, if the QV was flying an Ensign she would be in breach of Maritime laws. The Cunard fleet are not registered in the UK, they have moved to a "Flag of Convenience" and as such have no business flying an Ensign. Maybe we should be looking at this rather than having a go at Argentina for upholding the law?
OK lets get some fact right, if the QV was flying an Ensign she would be in breach of Maritime laws. The Cunard fleet are not registered in the UK, they have moved to a "Flag of Convenience" and as such have no business flying an Ensign. Maybe we should be looking at this rather than having a go at Argentina for upholding the law? Grabul
  • Score: -2

10:31am Fri 14 Feb 14

Mr E says...

I Hope they like the new giant union flag P&O branding as seen on Britania
I Hope they like the new giant union flag P&O branding as seen on Britania Mr E
  • Score: 0

12:05pm Fri 14 Feb 14

X Old Bill says...

Grabul wrote:
OK lets get some fact right, if the QV was flying an Ensign she would be in breach of Maritime laws. The Cunard fleet are not registered in the UK, they have moved to a "Flag of Convenience" and as such have no business flying an Ensign. Maybe we should be looking at this rather than having a go at Argentina for upholding the law?
You say you wish to get some 'facts' right but start with a popular misconception which is not a fact and is, in fact, wholly inaccurate.

Cunard, along with P&O and Princess ships are all registered in Bermuda. Bermuda have an open registry which is part of the 'Red Ensign Group', it being a British Dependent Territory.
Any ship on the registry of a member of the Red Ensign Group may fly the Red Ensign quite legally. They may also fly, upon discretion, the Ensign of the Country of registry.
It is normal practice, to keep the peace, for all these ships to hoist the Bermudian Ensign when visiting Argentine ports. The Argentine government accept this and have stated that no threats of punitive fines have been made against ships flying any form of British Ensign in B.A.

You will also note, if you care to look, that when these ships visit Southampton they fly the undefaced Red Ensign on the stern, as is their right.
[quote][p][bold]Grabul[/bold] wrote: OK lets get some fact right, if the QV was flying an Ensign she would be in breach of Maritime laws. The Cunard fleet are not registered in the UK, they have moved to a "Flag of Convenience" and as such have no business flying an Ensign. Maybe we should be looking at this rather than having a go at Argentina for upholding the law?[/p][/quote]You say you wish to get some 'facts' right but start with a popular misconception which is not a fact and is, in fact, wholly inaccurate. Cunard, along with P&O and Princess ships are all registered in Bermuda. Bermuda have an open registry which is part of the 'Red Ensign Group', it being a British Dependent Territory. Any ship on the registry of a member of the Red Ensign Group may fly the Red Ensign quite legally. They may also fly, upon discretion, the Ensign of the Country of registry. It is normal practice, to keep the peace, for all these ships to hoist the Bermudian Ensign when visiting Argentine ports. The Argentine government accept this and have stated that no threats of punitive fines have been made against ships flying any form of British Ensign in B.A. You will also note, if you care to look, that when these ships visit Southampton they fly the undefaced Red Ensign on the stern, as is their right. X Old Bill
  • Score: 0

1:31pm Fri 14 Feb 14

WoolstonSean says...

Brite Spark wrote:
crazyoldman wrote:
Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?
Fair point, the ship was in South America so why show a photo of it in Egypt.
Not sure if you were joking but you are aware that the Faroe Islands are NOT in Egypt!
[quote][p][bold]Brite Spark[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]crazyoldman[/bold] wrote: Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?[/p][/quote]Fair point, the ship was in South America so why show a photo of it in Egypt.[/p][/quote]Not sure if you were joking but you are aware that the Faroe Islands are NOT in Egypt! WoolstonSean
  • Score: 1

1:54pm Fri 14 Feb 14

X Old Bill says...

WoolstonSean wrote:
Brite Spark wrote:
crazyoldman wrote:
Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?
Fair point, the ship was in South America so why show a photo of it in Egypt.
Not sure if you were joking but you are aware that the Faroe Islands are NOT in Egypt!
Matelot joke! - Faroe = Pharaoh
[quote][p][bold]WoolstonSean[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Brite Spark[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]crazyoldman[/bold] wrote: Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?[/p][/quote]Fair point, the ship was in South America so why show a photo of it in Egypt.[/p][/quote]Not sure if you were joking but you are aware that the Faroe Islands are NOT in Egypt![/p][/quote]Matelot joke! - Faroe = Pharaoh X Old Bill
  • Score: 2

10:42am Thu 20 Feb 14

drakey says...

michaelwhite wrote:
Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.
http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Red_Ensign

There are more than one Red Ensign Flags... including Bermuda's

Get it Right, Michael.
[quote][p][bold]michaelwhite[/bold] wrote: Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.[/p][/quote]http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Red_Ensign There are more than one Red Ensign Flags... including Bermuda's Get it Right, Michael. drakey
  • Score: 0

11:06am Thu 20 Feb 14

george h says...

drakey wrote:
michaelwhite wrote:
Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.
http://en.wikipedia.

org/wiki/Red_Ensign

There are more than one Red Ensign Flags... including Bermuda's

Get it Right, Michael.
If you want to get pedantic with us you are the one who needs to get it right drakey.

There is only one Red Ensign. There is only one Red Duster. As adopted in the Merchant Shipping Acts from 1854 and subsequent amendments.

All similar flags including the Bermuda flag are variations and are not the Red Ensign. Nor are they approved or even get a mention in the maritime laws of the UK.

The flag used by Bermuda has never been sanctioned by law, and it, like many others is an unofficial or de facto flag. As is the skull and crossbones.

Not that it matters much since Argentina has never been too bothered about the law.
[quote][p][bold]drakey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]michaelwhite[/bold] wrote: Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.[/p][/quote]http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Red_Ensign There are more than one Red Ensign Flags... including Bermuda's Get it Right, Michael.[/p][/quote]If you want to get pedantic with us you are the one who needs to get it right drakey. There is only one Red Ensign. There is only one Red Duster. As adopted in the Merchant Shipping Acts from 1854 and subsequent amendments. All similar flags including the Bermuda flag are variations and are not the Red Ensign. Nor are they approved or even get a mention in the maritime laws of the UK. The flag used by Bermuda has never been sanctioned by law, and it, like many others is an unofficial or de facto flag. As is the skull and crossbones. Not that it matters much since Argentina has never been too bothered about the law. george h
  • Score: 0

12:17pm Thu 20 Feb 14

X Old Bill says...

george h wrote:
drakey wrote:
michaelwhite wrote:
Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.
http://en.wikipedia.


org/wiki/Red_Ensign

There are more than one Red Ensign Flags... including Bermuda's

Get it Right, Michael.
If you want to get pedantic with us you are the one who needs to get it right drakey.

There is only one Red Ensign. There is only one Red Duster. As adopted in the Merchant Shipping Acts from 1854 and subsequent amendments.

All similar flags including the Bermuda flag are variations and are not the Red Ensign. Nor are they approved or even get a mention in the maritime laws of the UK.

The flag used by Bermuda has never been sanctioned by law, and it, like many others is an unofficial or de facto flag. As is the skull and crossbones.

Not that it matters much since Argentina has never been too bothered about the law.
You are also partially incorrect.
Yes, there is only one Red Ensign.
But, Internationally recognised Civil Ensigns of Bermuda, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Jersey, Isle of man and many other places are effectively red or blue ensigns defaced in the fly.
As I have stated above these places are part of the Red Ensign Group and while ships registered in those places would normally be permitted to legally wear the undefaced red ensign they may also wear, quite legally, their own recognised civil ensign.

I will accept the words of Reed's on this one.
[quote][p][bold]george h[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]drakey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]michaelwhite[/bold] wrote: Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.[/p][/quote]http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Red_Ensign There are more than one Red Ensign Flags... including Bermuda's Get it Right, Michael.[/p][/quote]If you want to get pedantic with us you are the one who needs to get it right drakey. There is only one Red Ensign. There is only one Red Duster. As adopted in the Merchant Shipping Acts from 1854 and subsequent amendments. All similar flags including the Bermuda flag are variations and are not the Red Ensign. Nor are they approved or even get a mention in the maritime laws of the UK. The flag used by Bermuda has never been sanctioned by law, and it, like many others is an unofficial or de facto flag. As is the skull and crossbones. Not that it matters much since Argentina has never been too bothered about the law.[/p][/quote]You are also partially incorrect. Yes, there is only one Red Ensign. But, Internationally recognised Civil Ensigns of Bermuda, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Jersey, Isle of man and many other places are effectively red or blue ensigns defaced in the fly. As I have stated above these places are part of the Red Ensign Group and while ships registered in those places would normally be permitted to legally wear the undefaced red ensign they may also wear, quite legally, their own recognised civil ensign. I will accept the words of Reed's on this one. X Old Bill
  • Score: 0

1:13pm Thu 20 Feb 14

george h says...

X Old Bill wrote:
george h wrote:
drakey wrote:
michaelwhite wrote:
Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.
http://en.wikipedia.



org/wiki/Red_Ensign

There are more than one Red Ensign Flags... including Bermuda's

Get it Right, Michael.
If you want to get pedantic with us you are the one who needs to get it right drakey.

There is only one Red Ensign. There is only one Red Duster. As adopted in the Merchant Shipping Acts from 1854 and subsequent amendments.

All similar flags including the Bermuda flag are variations and are not the Red Ensign. Nor are they approved or even get a mention in the maritime laws of the UK.

The flag used by Bermuda has never been sanctioned by law, and it, like many others is an unofficial or de facto flag. As is the skull and crossbones.

Not that it matters much since Argentina has never been too bothered about the law.
You are also partially incorrect.
Yes, there is only one Red Ensign.
But, Internationally recognised Civil Ensigns of Bermuda, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Jersey, Isle of man and many other places are effectively red or blue ensigns defaced in the fly.
As I have stated above these places are part of the Red Ensign Group and while ships registered in those places would normally be permitted to legally wear the undefaced red ensign they may also wear, quite legally, their own recognised civil ensign.

I will accept the words of Reed's on this one.
Then you'd be wrong!

Bermuda's flag may be recognized internationally, but it has no more status in UK or Bermuda law than the skull and crossbones. Your own word "effectively" gives the game away; "effectively being a euphemism for "common practice" and "unofficial".

A similar example is Canada. Almost everyone recollects the old Canadian national flag as a defaced Red Ensign. Yet the first and the only official Canadian flag recognized by Act of the Canadian Parliament is the maple leaf flag. All previous flags were unofficial and no more than custom and practice. As is the Bermuda flag.
[quote][p][bold]X Old Bill[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]george h[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]drakey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]michaelwhite[/bold] wrote: Interesting. Queen Victoria doesn't fly the Red Ensign as she's registered in Bermuda. The Bermudan flag looks similar to the Red Ensign, but it's not the same thing. Get it right, Echo.[/p][/quote]http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Red_Ensign There are more than one Red Ensign Flags... including Bermuda's Get it Right, Michael.[/p][/quote]If you want to get pedantic with us you are the one who needs to get it right drakey. There is only one Red Ensign. There is only one Red Duster. As adopted in the Merchant Shipping Acts from 1854 and subsequent amendments. All similar flags including the Bermuda flag are variations and are not the Red Ensign. Nor are they approved or even get a mention in the maritime laws of the UK. The flag used by Bermuda has never been sanctioned by law, and it, like many others is an unofficial or de facto flag. As is the skull and crossbones. Not that it matters much since Argentina has never been too bothered about the law.[/p][/quote]You are also partially incorrect. Yes, there is only one Red Ensign. But, Internationally recognised Civil Ensigns of Bermuda, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Jersey, Isle of man and many other places are effectively red or blue ensigns defaced in the fly. As I have stated above these places are part of the Red Ensign Group and while ships registered in those places would normally be permitted to legally wear the undefaced red ensign they may also wear, quite legally, their own recognised civil ensign. I will accept the words of Reed's on this one.[/p][/quote]Then you'd be wrong! Bermuda's flag may be recognized internationally, but it has no more status in UK or Bermuda law than the skull and crossbones. Your own word "effectively" gives the game away; "effectively being a euphemism for "common practice" and "unofficial". A similar example is Canada. Almost everyone recollects the old Canadian national flag as a defaced Red Ensign. Yet the first and the only official Canadian flag recognized by Act of the Canadian Parliament is the maple leaf flag. All previous flags were unofficial and no more than custom and practice. As is the Bermuda flag. george h
  • Score: 0

3:14pm Thu 20 Feb 14

X Old Bill says...

george h:
When I use the word 'effectively' I mean that the Civil Ensign of the British Overseas Territories appears, to the untrained eye, to be a defaced red ensign - It is not, it is the actual flag in its own right.

The Civil Ensign of Bermuda and the blue Government Ensign of Bermuda are both official ensigns. I will grant that I cannot immediately quote the authority for this but my understanding is that it given sometime in 1967 - Certainly the Foreign and Commonwealth Office accepted it as 'official' in 1969.

The Bermudan Flag authorities state quite categorically that either the Red Ensign or the Bermudian Ensign may be worn by vessels on their register. It it however standard and proper practice for large Merchant ships to use the Red Ensign. The Bermudian Ensign is the proper ensign to hoist as a courtesy flag (if one is available) when visiting Bermuda.

Carnival ships registered in Hamilton when visiting Argentina, as a matter of course, hoist the Bermudian Ensign and so it is true to some extent that the red Ensign was struck. The retired Admiral did not see this but was told part of the story over dinner.

To fly the House flag in lieu of the proper ensign would be tantamount to sailing under false colours and would be considered illegal so is unlikely to have happened.

The Canadian Ensign was the recognised and official ensign for use on ships when Canada was a Dominion, but only on ships. Its use on land was unofficial and the proper flag to be flown was the Union Flag.

The 'Jolly Roger' has no single recognised format, has no territorial status and is a complete red herring as far as flags are concerned.
george h: When I use the word 'effectively' I mean that the Civil Ensign of the British Overseas Territories appears, to the untrained eye, to be a defaced red ensign - It is not, it is the actual flag in its own right. The Civil Ensign of Bermuda and the blue Government Ensign of Bermuda are both official ensigns. I will grant that I cannot immediately quote the authority for this but my understanding is that it given sometime in 1967 - Certainly the Foreign and Commonwealth Office accepted it as 'official' in 1969. The Bermudan Flag authorities state quite categorically that either the Red Ensign or the Bermudian Ensign may be worn by vessels on their register. It it however standard and proper practice for large Merchant ships to use the Red Ensign. The Bermudian Ensign is the proper ensign to hoist as a courtesy flag (if one is available) when visiting Bermuda. Carnival ships registered in Hamilton when visiting Argentina, as a matter of course, hoist the Bermudian Ensign and so it is true to some extent that the red Ensign was struck. The retired Admiral did not see this but was told part of the story over dinner. To fly the House flag in lieu of the proper ensign would be tantamount to sailing under false colours and would be considered illegal so is unlikely to have happened. The Canadian Ensign was the recognised and official ensign for use on ships when Canada was a Dominion, but only on ships. Its use on land was unofficial and the proper flag to be flown was the Union Flag. The 'Jolly Roger' has no single recognised format, has no territorial status and is a complete red herring as far as flags are concerned. X Old Bill
  • Score: 0

7:46pm Fri 21 Feb 14

teslpl says...

Brite Spark wrote:
crazyoldman wrote:
Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?
Fair point, the ship was in South America so why show a photo of it in Egypt.
Thought it was in Somerset!
[quote][p][bold]Brite Spark[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]crazyoldman[/bold] wrote: Don't understand why there is a picture of the QV in the Faroe Isles. Am I missing something?[/p][/quote]Fair point, the ship was in South America so why show a photo of it in Egypt.[/p][/quote]Thought it was in Somerset! teslpl
  • Score: 0

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