Row breaks out in Southampton over who saved bus service

Election row over 'dishonest' leaflets

Election row over 'dishonest' leaflets

Election row over 'dishonest' leaflets

First published in News
Last updated
Daily Echo: Photograph of the Author by , Political reporter

A ROW has broken out between independent candidates and Labour chiefs in the run-up to the Southampton City Council elections.

Independent city councillor Keith Morrell claims Labour are using “subterfuge tactics” by distributing leaflets in Coxford claiming credit for a successful community campaign to reinstate a bus route.

But Labour chiefs have hit back, saying they are the only ones with a record in delivering and saving services for residents in the area.

As previously reported by the Daily Echo, First scrapped its S1 bus service last year but it was saved by Velvet following crunch talks with Labour council bosses.

But Velvet then decided to cut out part of the route, between Lordshill North and Lordshill District Centre, which lies in the Coxford ward.

Following a community campaign which was supported by Cllr Morrell and fellow ward councillor Don Thomas and gathered a 600-word petition, Velvet decided to save the route.

But now Labour leaflets saying the party’s Coxford candidate Brian Norgate “campaigned to get the S1 bus route restored” have been attacked by Coxford’s two anti-cuts councillors.

Cllr Morrell, who is standing for re-election against Mr Norgate, said: “I think Labour are being dishonest in their campaign in claiming credit for some of the things that the community and Don and I have achieved, like saving the route.

“They also claim they have saved the Zoe Braithwaite Play Centre, when in fact it’s going to be used for a completely different purpose.”

A pre-school run by the Oasis Lord’s Hill Community Hub is set to open there in September.

Cllr Thomas added: “Some of what they are putting out borders on being scandalous.

“By saying they restored the S1 service they are muddying the water about who carried out the campaign to save the bus route.

“They also say they are supporting keeping Oaklands Swimming Pool open, but it was the community that stopped Labour from demolishing it.”

Council leader Simon Letts, also standing for re-election in Bitterne, has hit back at the pair.

He said: “They are mixing up moaning about things and actual delivery. Everything that has been delivered in Coxford has been delivered by this administration. We delivered the pool.

“They did get signatures to save the route, but negotiations took place between Jacqui Rayment and Velvet to get that route restored.”

Comments (30)

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9:11am Sun 18 May 14

Zeo says...

Though not voting for either for my ward (nor did I last time) - the Independent parties did much more than Labour in the Coxford Ward.
Though not voting for either for my ward (nor did I last time) - the Independent parties did much more than Labour in the Coxford Ward. Zeo
  • Score: 10

10:11am Sun 18 May 14

issacchunt says...

Politicians being less than truthful to get a vote? Well that will surprise a lot of people I guess.
Politicians being less than truthful to get a vote? Well that will surprise a lot of people I guess. issacchunt
  • Score: 2

10:29am Sun 18 May 14

Jonny Maths says...

will the turkeys vote for christmas again and elect labour in Southampton ?
will the turkeys vote for christmas again and elect labour in Southampton ? Jonny Maths
  • Score: -1

10:35am Sun 18 May 14

Paramjit Bahia says...

Living in Coxford ward, I can only confirm that Councillors Don Thomas and Keith Morrell frequently contact residents and keep people informed about what they are doing while consulting them on various issues.

Apart from regular information from Don and Keith only other political person from whom I hear off and on is our MP Alan Whitehead.

NuLabour's councillor for the area Sally Spicer is only known for remaining elusive in the ward and silent in full Counci meetings (which I have often observed as member of the public).

Although elections (both local and European) are due within the next few days I haven't noticed even a single leaflet through my letter box from NuLabour and didn't even know who their candidate was, till I read in this news item that NuLabour has found a sacrificial lamb.

UKIP have delivered leaflets of their Euro candidates, but nothing about Council elections, may be they have better sense than pushing their luck in Coxford!!!

I have received two copies of supposed Manifesto for European Parliamentary elections from certain Socialist Party (which somebody tells me is not the same Socialist Party that dominates TUSC) But strangely apart from word Europe before Manifesto there is absolutely nothing about European Parliament or the EU, only socialist slogans about socialist world, yes WORLD.... But I want to know where they stand on the EU????

Under these circumstances, even if I did not support councillors Don Thomas and Keith Morrell ( In fact I have always supported Don and fully supported Keith ever since he left Thatcherised NuLabour) there is good reason why I should be voting to re-elect Keith Morrell and hope others will also do the same.
Living in Coxford ward, I can only confirm that Councillors Don Thomas and Keith Morrell frequently contact residents and keep people informed about what they are doing while consulting them on various issues. Apart from regular information from Don and Keith only other political person from whom I hear off and on is our MP Alan Whitehead. NuLabour's councillor for the area Sally Spicer is only known for remaining elusive in the ward and silent in full Counci meetings (which I have often observed as member of the public). Although elections (both local and European) are due within the next few days I haven't noticed even a single leaflet through my letter box from NuLabour and didn't even know who their candidate was, till I read in this news item that NuLabour has found a sacrificial lamb. UKIP have delivered leaflets of their Euro candidates, but nothing about Council elections, may be they have better sense than pushing their luck in Coxford!!! I have received two copies of supposed Manifesto for European Parliamentary elections from certain Socialist Party (which somebody tells me is not the same Socialist Party that dominates TUSC) But strangely apart from word Europe before Manifesto there is absolutely nothing about European Parliament or the EU, only socialist slogans about socialist world, yes WORLD.... But I want to know where they stand on the EU???? Under these circumstances, even if I did not support councillors Don Thomas and Keith Morrell ( In fact I have always supported Don and fully supported Keith ever since he left Thatcherised NuLabour) there is good reason why I should be voting to re-elect Keith Morrell and hope others will also do the same. Paramjit Bahia
  • Score: -2

11:02am Sun 18 May 14

Lone Ranger. says...

Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years.
.
The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that.
.
Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....
Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years. . The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that. . Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... ..... Lone Ranger.
  • Score: -10

11:02am Sun 18 May 14

southy says...

Don and Keith have done a lot for the Coxford ward, What started with Oaklands Swimming pool that was closed by the Tory Council in which the Labour party voted with the Tory's to close the pool and when Labour took control of the Swimming pool there intentions was to sell it off to private developers to be be built on in which a local supermarket chain Sainsbury had an interest to build there new supermarket on, lost interest when they see what the Socialist Party and the TUSC had generated the interest in the locals people to reopen it (must say Thank You to Sainsbury's for allowing to set up SP and TUSC stalls right out side there store) and the only reason why the pool is still there is because of public pressure to spend money to reopen it for public use to, Labour tired to take credit for that too, There,s a whole long list that both Labour and the Tory's have tired to claim credit for but in reality it was people and groups like Don, Keith, SP and TUSC plus other groups like the friends of the pool that manage to save other things like the Bus route S1 and others things and not just in the Coxford corner of the City
Don and Keith have done a lot for the Coxford ward, What started with Oaklands Swimming pool that was closed by the Tory Council in which the Labour party voted with the Tory's to close the pool and when Labour took control of the Swimming pool there intentions was to sell it off to private developers to be be built on in which a local supermarket chain Sainsbury had an interest to build there new supermarket on, lost interest when they see what the Socialist Party and the TUSC had generated the interest in the locals people to reopen it (must say Thank You to Sainsbury's for allowing to set up SP and TUSC stalls right out side there store) and the only reason why the pool is still there is because of public pressure to spend money to reopen it for public use to, Labour tired to take credit for that too, There,s a whole long list that both Labour and the Tory's have tired to claim credit for but in reality it was people and groups like Don, Keith, SP and TUSC plus other groups like the friends of the pool that manage to save other things like the Bus route S1 and others things and not just in the Coxford corner of the City southy
  • Score: -5

11:25am Sun 18 May 14

southy says...

Paramjit Bahia says

I have received two copies of supposed Manifesto for European Parliamentary elections from certain Socialist Party (which somebody tells me is not the same Socialist Party that dominates TUSC) But strangely apart from word Europe before Manifesto there is absolutely nothing about European Parliament or the EU, only socialist slogans about socialist world, yes WORLD.... But I want to know where they stand on the EU????

Paramjit they are

The Socialist Party of Great Britain | Companion Party of the World Socialist Movement.

They are not the Socialist Party, but they have the right to use Socialist Party name but not logo in elections rules, they registered the election name of the Socialist party, where as the Socialist party it self with other socialist groups used the election name of Socialist Alliance and now have joined the TUSC.

I had a leaflet also and it made me wonder to at first, interesting leaflet but what they are talking about would take a few hundred years to achieve and they are try to rush into it, it takes time to get to the state that they are on about.
Paramjit Bahia says I have received two copies of supposed Manifesto for European Parliamentary elections from certain Socialist Party (which somebody tells me is not the same Socialist Party that dominates TUSC) But strangely apart from word Europe before Manifesto there is absolutely nothing about European Parliament or the EU, only socialist slogans about socialist world, yes WORLD.... But I want to know where they stand on the EU???? Paramjit they are The Socialist Party of Great Britain | Companion Party of the World Socialist Movement. They are not the Socialist Party, but they have the right to use Socialist Party name but not logo in elections rules, they registered the election name of the Socialist party, where as the Socialist party it self with other socialist groups used the election name of Socialist Alliance and now have joined the TUSC. I had a leaflet also and it made me wonder to at first, interesting leaflet but what they are talking about would take a few hundred years to achieve and they are try to rush into it, it takes time to get to the state that they are on about. southy
  • Score: -8

11:34am Sun 18 May 14

southy says...

Lone Ranger. wrote:
Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years.
.
The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that.
.
Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....
Lone how can they be splitter,s when the Tory's, Lib/Dem, Labour, Greens and UKIP are all offering roughly the same, Don and Keith are offering an real alternative, Don and Keith like the TUSC will not be puppets to national government there is an alternative to government cuts and that is to fight the government every inch of the way.
I still not forgotten Letts at the TUSC meeting and what he told us what he and Labour party will do a promise that they have not full filled in sted the done the opposite and roll over for the government an implemented the cuts. and its only a case of who,s cuts and job loses are better.
[quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years. . The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that. . Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....[/p][/quote]Lone how can they be splitter,s when the Tory's, Lib/Dem, Labour, Greens and UKIP are all offering roughly the same, Don and Keith are offering an real alternative, Don and Keith like the TUSC will not be puppets to national government there is an alternative to government cuts and that is to fight the government every inch of the way. I still not forgotten Letts at the TUSC meeting and what he told us what he and Labour party will do a promise that they have not full filled in sted the done the opposite and roll over for the government an implemented the cuts. and its only a case of who,s cuts and job loses are better. southy
  • Score: -7

11:43am Sun 18 May 14

Inform Al says...

Jonny Maths wrote:
will the turkeys vote for christmas again and elect labour in Southampton ?
Could be worse, the turkeys may vote Tory in again.
[quote][p][bold]Jonny Maths[/bold] wrote: will the turkeys vote for christmas again and elect labour in Southampton ?[/p][/quote]Could be worse, the turkeys may vote Tory in again. Inform Al
  • Score: -2

11:56am Sun 18 May 14

Maine Lobster says...

Lone Ranger. wrote:
Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years.
.
The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that.
.
Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....
Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.
[quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years. . The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that. . Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....[/p][/quote]Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that. Maine Lobster
  • Score: 2

12:12pm Sun 18 May 14

southy says...

Maine Lobster wrote:
Lone Ranger. wrote:
Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years.
.
The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that.
.
Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....
Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.
They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.
[quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years. . The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that. . Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....[/p][/quote]Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.[/p][/quote]They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith. southy
  • Score: -11

12:30pm Sun 18 May 14

Linesman says...

Being Independents, they have no other responsibility outside of their area, so can devote more time there. No 'seat at the top table' where decisions are actually taken, and so they cannot bring any influence to bear.

Where once they were small fish in a big pond, they opted to be big fish in their own little pond.
Being Independents, they have no other responsibility outside of their area, so can devote more time there. No 'seat at the top table' where decisions are actually taken, and so they cannot bring any influence to bear. Where once they were small fish in a big pond, they opted to be big fish in their own little pond. Linesman
  • Score: -1

12:36pm Sun 18 May 14

southy says...

Linesman wrote:
Being Independents, they have no other responsibility outside of their area, so can devote more time there. No 'seat at the top table' where decisions are actually taken, and so they cannot bring any influence to bear.

Where once they were small fish in a big pond, they opted to be big fish in their own little pond.
But they are still not spitters now are they, for that to happen Labour as to offer some thing different but they don't, Labour is offering the same
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: Being Independents, they have no other responsibility outside of their area, so can devote more time there. No 'seat at the top table' where decisions are actually taken, and so they cannot bring any influence to bear. Where once they were small fish in a big pond, they opted to be big fish in their own little pond.[/p][/quote]But they are still not spitters now are they, for that to happen Labour as to offer some thing different but they don't, Labour is offering the same southy
  • Score: -8

12:53pm Sun 18 May 14

Paramjit Bahia says...

southy wrote:
Paramjit Bahia says

I have received two copies of supposed Manifesto for European Parliamentary elections from certain Socialist Party (which somebody tells me is not the same Socialist Party that dominates TUSC) But strangely apart from word Europe before Manifesto there is absolutely nothing about European Parliament or the EU, only socialist slogans about socialist world, yes WORLD.... But I want to know where they stand on the EU????

Paramjit they are

The Socialist Party of Great Britain | Companion Party of the World Socialist Movement.

They are not the Socialist Party, but they have the right to use Socialist Party name but not logo in elections rules, they registered the election name of the Socialist party, where as the Socialist party it self with other socialist groups used the election name of Socialist Alliance and now have joined the TUSC.

I had a leaflet also and it made me wonder to at first, interesting leaflet but what they are talking about would take a few hundred years to achieve and they are try to rush into it, it takes time to get to the state that they are on about.
Peter,

Yes I am aware. That's made clear in my comment that it's not the same Socialist Party, which dominates TUSC.

When I received the first copy through post, I emailed Nick my views on it that Manifesto on Eropeam elections doesn't contain even word Europe in it, but till today Nick hasn't even replied. But fortunately a freelance socialist friend in Lewes told me that it is a different organisation and not your Socialist Party
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: Paramjit Bahia says I have received two copies of supposed Manifesto for European Parliamentary elections from certain Socialist Party (which somebody tells me is not the same Socialist Party that dominates TUSC) But strangely apart from word Europe before Manifesto there is absolutely nothing about European Parliament or the EU, only socialist slogans about socialist world, yes WORLD.... But I want to know where they stand on the EU???? Paramjit they are The Socialist Party of Great Britain | Companion Party of the World Socialist Movement. They are not the Socialist Party, but they have the right to use Socialist Party name but not logo in elections rules, they registered the election name of the Socialist party, where as the Socialist party it self with other socialist groups used the election name of Socialist Alliance and now have joined the TUSC. I had a leaflet also and it made me wonder to at first, interesting leaflet but what they are talking about would take a few hundred years to achieve and they are try to rush into it, it takes time to get to the state that they are on about.[/p][/quote]Peter, Yes I am aware. That's made clear in my comment that it's not the same Socialist Party, which dominates TUSC. When I received the first copy through post, I emailed Nick my views on it that Manifesto on Eropeam elections doesn't contain even word Europe in it, but till today Nick hasn't even replied. But fortunately a freelance socialist friend in Lewes told me that it is a different organisation and not your Socialist Party Paramjit Bahia
  • Score: -4

1:41pm Sun 18 May 14

Paramjit Bahia says...

Hardly surprising that rather than explaining the failures of Thatcherised NuLabour run Council to stand up to the central government the usual cheer leaders of Miliband's local mob have started scare mongering with wicked suggestion of Tories returning to power because Councillors Don Thomas and Keith Morrell have remained faithful to those who elected them and worked hard in Coxford ward.

Similar NuLabour tricks were also used by them under Tory Tony Blair to drag UK into illegal and immoral Iraq war, when they told the nation that Sadam Hussain had weapons of mass destruction and can launch them against us in matter of minutes.

At least one of NuLabour's clever Charlie has admitted (indirectly) that Don and Keith have been working hard in Coxford.

But his/her mitigation for elusiveness of only NuLabour councillor in Coxford is flossy and extremely foolish.

Cllr. Spicer can't be busy making the mess of our city like her colleagues who are well paid Cabinet members, because she is not in that cabinet, which is full of useless poodles of slippery Simon Letts. As it is she is merely one of the puppets of the Leader of Council who put their hands up like robots whenever ordered to do so by the NuLabour Whip.

We the people of Coxford are entitled to know why only Don and Keith are helping us on daily basis, and even busy Member of Parliament Alan Whitehead is always available, but why can't we find or hear from NuLabour's local councillor or even from their opportunist and unprincipled Party?

Obviously along with promising pies in the sky and failing to deliver, and scaremongering, and telling fibs the arrogance is another speciality of NuLabour.

Some of us may not be keen on Tories at least we know what they are all about. I doubt even if regular mouth pieces of NuLabour know what their party was, is and will be, because even British weather can be more reliable than the traitors who have betrayed all the Labour values.
Hardly surprising that rather than explaining the failures of Thatcherised NuLabour run Council to stand up to the central government the usual cheer leaders of Miliband's local mob have started scare mongering with wicked suggestion of Tories returning to power because Councillors Don Thomas and Keith Morrell have remained faithful to those who elected them and worked hard in Coxford ward. Similar NuLabour tricks were also used by them under Tory Tony Blair to drag UK into illegal and immoral Iraq war, when they told the nation that Sadam Hussain had weapons of mass destruction and can launch them against us in matter of minutes. At least one of NuLabour's clever Charlie has admitted (indirectly) that Don and Keith have been working hard in Coxford. But his/her mitigation for elusiveness of only NuLabour councillor in Coxford is flossy and extremely foolish. Cllr. Spicer can't be busy making the mess of our city like her colleagues who are well paid Cabinet members, because she is not in that cabinet, which is full of useless poodles of slippery Simon Letts. As it is she is merely one of the puppets of the Leader of Council who put their hands up like robots whenever ordered to do so by the NuLabour Whip. We the people of Coxford are entitled to know why only Don and Keith are helping us on daily basis, and even busy Member of Parliament Alan Whitehead is always available, but why can't we find or hear from NuLabour's local councillor or even from their opportunist and unprincipled Party? Obviously along with promising pies in the sky and failing to deliver, and scaremongering, and telling fibs the arrogance is another speciality of NuLabour. Some of us may not be keen on Tories at least we know what they are all about. I doubt even if regular mouth pieces of NuLabour know what their party was, is and will be, because even British weather can be more reliable than the traitors who have betrayed all the Labour values. Paramjit Bahia
  • Score: -2

1:47pm Sun 18 May 14

Paramjit Bahia says...

Inform Al wrote:
Jonny Maths wrote:
will the turkeys vote for christmas again and elect labour in Southampton ?
Could be worse, the turkeys may vote Tory in again.
Could you explain to an ordinary old layman like me the difference between NuLabour and Conservative Party?

I thought they were all Tories
[quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jonny Maths[/bold] wrote: will the turkeys vote for christmas again and elect labour in Southampton ?[/p][/quote]Could be worse, the turkeys may vote Tory in again.[/p][/quote]Could you explain to an ordinary old layman like me the difference between NuLabour and Conservative Party? I thought they were all Tories Paramjit Bahia
  • Score: -6

2:11pm Sun 18 May 14

Maine Lobster says...

southy wrote:
Maine Lobster wrote:
Lone Ranger. wrote:
Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years.
.
The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that.
.
Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....
Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.
They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.
Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years. . The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that. . Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....[/p][/quote]Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.[/p][/quote]They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.[/p][/quote]Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that. Maine Lobster
  • Score: 1

3:16pm Sun 18 May 14

southy says...

Maine Lobster wrote:
southy wrote:
Maine Lobster wrote:
Lone Ranger. wrote:
Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years.
.
The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that.
.
Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....
Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.
They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.
Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.
No they are choosing to makes cuts that result in job loses, they have the choice to fight the government, it very realistic, Liverpool Council decided to go it alone against the Thatcher government, and they won for the people of the Liverpool even low they was banned from taking part in any election for 5 years, they beat the government in the end Liverpool had another 56 million extra to spend they also had council homes built, The Government was force to spend extra in Liverpool. This what you call putting the local people needs before a political career, and that all Labour are now just another tory party careerist, making sure they are all right before the people.
Letts promise to the TUSC was that they would fight the cuts and government, but what did they do roll over and be the Government lackeys.
It way pass the time to make a stand, but they are not going to. And when Labour is in main government office next year what are they going to do, they will not reverse any of what this government as done, they will carry on implementing Thatchers and Cameron policy of taking from the poor and giving it to the wealthy, Labour as abandon the working class they want there money and there votes but are not willing to do any thing for them
[quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years. . The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that. . Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....[/p][/quote]Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.[/p][/quote]They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.[/p][/quote]Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.[/p][/quote]No they are choosing to makes cuts that result in job loses, they have the choice to fight the government, it very realistic, Liverpool Council decided to go it alone against the Thatcher government, and they won for the people of the Liverpool even low they was banned from taking part in any election for 5 years, they beat the government in the end Liverpool had another 56 million extra to spend they also had council homes built, The Government was force to spend extra in Liverpool. This what you call putting the local people needs before a political career, and that all Labour are now just another tory party careerist, making sure they are all right before the people. Letts promise to the TUSC was that they would fight the cuts and government, but what did they do roll over and be the Government lackeys. It way pass the time to make a stand, but they are not going to. And when Labour is in main government office next year what are they going to do, they will not reverse any of what this government as done, they will carry on implementing Thatchers and Cameron policy of taking from the poor and giving it to the wealthy, Labour as abandon the working class they want there money and there votes but are not willing to do any thing for them southy
  • Score: -9

4:30pm Sun 18 May 14

Paramjit Bahia says...

Maine Lobster wrote:
southy wrote:
Maine Lobster wrote:
Lone Ranger. wrote:
Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years.
.
The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that.
.
Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....
Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.
They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.
Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.
It has hardly anything to do with Tories vs NuLabour conflict of ideology, because both are virtually the same.

Last NuLabour regimes of Blair and Brown also kept on with capping policy of Tories before them. If they say what they mean why didn't the hypocrites change policies of Maggie Thatcher?

Even now national leadership of the NuLabour is not promising to completely abolish the harful policies.

Fact even many Tory run Councils and councillors are not happy with what central government under all main parties has been doing to local councils blows big hole in your argument that ConDem Coalition is only against NuLabour Council.

Face the reality our leadership of the Council hasn't got the guts to stand up to bully of all main parties in London, so they are pickling upon us the people by cutting our services and destroying the jobs of workers.

Any flossy sound bites that central government is too powerful so can't be challenged is pathetic excuse. It is very similar to what UK and USA used to say when refusing to boycott South African aparthied, but Nelson Mandela proved them wrong, just as Mahatma Gandhi had challenged the mighty powerful British Empire and succeeded in winning independence for India.

The NuLabourite traitors have conveniently forgotten what Labour was all about and do not want have the courage and convictions of Tolepuddle martyrs on whose sacrifices British Trdae Union and Labour Movement was based. That is why the local mob of Miliband had expelled Don Thomas and Keith Morrell from their Thatcherised party, because Don and Keith opted to remain faithful to ordinary people and serve them well.
[quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years. . The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that. . Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....[/p][/quote]Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.[/p][/quote]They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.[/p][/quote]Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.[/p][/quote]It has hardly anything to do with Tories vs NuLabour conflict of ideology, because both are virtually the same. Last NuLabour regimes of Blair and Brown also kept on with capping policy of Tories before them. If they say what they mean why didn't the hypocrites change policies of Maggie Thatcher? Even now national leadership of the NuLabour is not promising to completely abolish the harful policies. Fact even many Tory run Councils and councillors are not happy with what central government under all main parties has been doing to local councils blows big hole in your argument that ConDem Coalition is only against NuLabour Council. Face the reality our leadership of the Council hasn't got the guts to stand up to bully of all main parties in London, so they are pickling upon us the people by cutting our services and destroying the jobs of workers. Any flossy sound bites that central government is too powerful so can't be challenged is pathetic excuse. It is very similar to what UK and USA used to say when refusing to boycott South African aparthied, but Nelson Mandela proved them wrong, just as Mahatma Gandhi had challenged the mighty powerful British Empire and succeeded in winning independence for India. The NuLabourite traitors have conveniently forgotten what Labour was all about and do not want have the courage and convictions of Tolepuddle martyrs on whose sacrifices British Trdae Union and Labour Movement was based. That is why the local mob of Miliband had expelled Don Thomas and Keith Morrell from their Thatcherised party, because Don and Keith opted to remain faithful to ordinary people and serve them well. Paramjit Bahia
  • Score: -2

4:57pm Sun 18 May 14

Lone Ranger. says...

Paramjit Bahia wrote:
Maine Lobster wrote:
southy wrote:
Maine Lobster wrote:
Lone Ranger. wrote:
Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years.
.
The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that.
.
Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....
Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.
They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.
Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.
It has hardly anything to do with Tories vs NuLabour conflict of ideology, because both are virtually the same.

Last NuLabour regimes of Blair and Brown also kept on with capping policy of Tories before them. If they say what they mean why didn't the hypocrites change policies of Maggie Thatcher?

Even now national leadership of the NuLabour is not promising to completely abolish the harful policies.

Fact even many Tory run Councils and councillors are not happy with what central government under all main parties has been doing to local councils blows big hole in your argument that ConDem Coalition is only against NuLabour Council.

Face the reality our leadership of the Council hasn't got the guts to stand up to bully of all main parties in London, so they are pickling upon us the people by cutting our services and destroying the jobs of workers.

Any flossy sound bites that central government is too powerful so can't be challenged is pathetic excuse. It is very similar to what UK and USA used to say when refusing to boycott South African aparthied, but Nelson Mandela proved them wrong, just as Mahatma Gandhi had challenged the mighty powerful British Empire and succeeded in winning independence for India.

The NuLabourite traitors have conveniently forgotten what Labour was all about and do not want have the courage and convictions of Tolepuddle martyrs on whose sacrifices British Trdae Union and Labour Movement was based. That is why the local mob of Miliband had expelled Don Thomas and Keith Morrell from their Thatcherised party, because Don and Keith opted to remain faithful to ordinary people and serve them well.
Your post is fully understood and i agree with many parts of it ...... and i am not concerned about the bile that you spout either at me ( although not by name )
.
However the fact still remains that a certain number of residents will vote Labour and some others will vote Independent .... Thus splitting the vote (potentially) ..... This is, as i pointed out, where the Tories may steal it.
.
Not once have i doubted the work carried out by Thomas and Morrell.
.
As regards the rest of your rather stupid Political namecalling ..... well i thought that with your experience you may well have been above all of that stuff by now ........ !!
[quote][p][bold]Paramjit Bahia[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years. . The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that. . Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....[/p][/quote]Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.[/p][/quote]They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.[/p][/quote]Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.[/p][/quote]It has hardly anything to do with Tories vs NuLabour conflict of ideology, because both are virtually the same. Last NuLabour regimes of Blair and Brown also kept on with capping policy of Tories before them. If they say what they mean why didn't the hypocrites change policies of Maggie Thatcher? Even now national leadership of the NuLabour is not promising to completely abolish the harful policies. Fact even many Tory run Councils and councillors are not happy with what central government under all main parties has been doing to local councils blows big hole in your argument that ConDem Coalition is only against NuLabour Council. Face the reality our leadership of the Council hasn't got the guts to stand up to bully of all main parties in London, so they are pickling upon us the people by cutting our services and destroying the jobs of workers. Any flossy sound bites that central government is too powerful so can't be challenged is pathetic excuse. It is very similar to what UK and USA used to say when refusing to boycott South African aparthied, but Nelson Mandela proved them wrong, just as Mahatma Gandhi had challenged the mighty powerful British Empire and succeeded in winning independence for India. The NuLabourite traitors have conveniently forgotten what Labour was all about and do not want have the courage and convictions of Tolepuddle martyrs on whose sacrifices British Trdae Union and Labour Movement was based. That is why the local mob of Miliband had expelled Don Thomas and Keith Morrell from their Thatcherised party, because Don and Keith opted to remain faithful to ordinary people and serve them well.[/p][/quote]Your post is fully understood and i agree with many parts of it ...... and i am not concerned about the bile that you spout either at me ( although not by name ) . However the fact still remains that a certain number of residents will vote Labour and some others will vote Independent .... Thus splitting the vote (potentially) ..... This is, as i pointed out, where the Tories may steal it. . Not once have i doubted the work carried out by Thomas and Morrell. . As regards the rest of your rather stupid Political namecalling ..... well i thought that with your experience you may well have been above all of that stuff by now ........ !! Lone Ranger.
  • Score: -1

5:19pm Sun 18 May 14

southy says...

But you still have the same problem, for it to be a split vote Labour as to offer some thing on the same lines, but are they no they are not, Labour is offering the same as the Tory,s, What the Independents are really doing is offering people some thing different that is not splitting the votes that is giving the people a real choice.
But you still have the same problem, for it to be a split vote Labour as to offer some thing on the same lines, but are they no they are not, Labour is offering the same as the Tory,s, What the Independents are really doing is offering people some thing different that is not splitting the votes that is giving the people a real choice. southy
  • Score: -4

6:10pm Sun 18 May 14

Lone Ranger. says...

southy wrote:
But you still have the same problem, for it to be a split vote Labour as to offer some thing on the same lines, but are they no they are not, Labour is offering the same as the Tory,s, What the Independents are really doing is offering people some thing different that is not splitting the votes that is giving the people a real choice.
Ok Southy ....... I accept your point.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: But you still have the same problem, for it to be a split vote Labour as to offer some thing on the same lines, but are they no they are not, Labour is offering the same as the Tory,s, What the Independents are really doing is offering people some thing different that is not splitting the votes that is giving the people a real choice.[/p][/quote]Ok Southy ....... I accept your point. Lone Ranger.
  • Score: -4

7:16pm Sun 18 May 14

FoysCornerBoy says...

Can anyone enlighten me as to how the £8,000 paid last year to Keith, as the leader of the two-man breakaway political group masquerading variously as 'Labour Councillors Against the Cuts' and 'Putting People First', has been used? The City Council's barmy constitution states that leaders of all opposition political groups - no matter what their size - get this payment.

I'm also confused as to why Keith is standing as an 'independent' in the current elections and lacks the courage of his convictions to stand under the TUSC banner.
Can anyone enlighten me as to how the £8,000 paid last year to Keith, as the leader of the two-man breakaway political group masquerading variously as 'Labour Councillors Against the Cuts' and 'Putting People First', has been used? The City Council's barmy constitution states that leaders of all opposition political groups - no matter what their size - get this payment. I'm also confused as to why Keith is standing as an 'independent' in the current elections and lacks the courage of his convictions to stand under the TUSC banner. FoysCornerBoy
  • Score: 2

7:40pm Sun 18 May 14

southy says...

FoysCornerBoy wrote:
Can anyone enlighten me as to how the £8,000 paid last year to Keith, as the leader of the two-man breakaway political group masquerading variously as 'Labour Councillors Against the Cuts' and 'Putting People First', has been used? The City Council's barmy constitution states that leaders of all opposition political groups - no matter what their size - get this payment.

I'm also confused as to why Keith is standing as an 'independent' in the current elections and lacks the courage of his convictions to stand under the TUSC banner.
you find its £2000 and to get that you must be a councillor, in which Keith is, that £2000 is to cover cost that a councillor might have over the year to cover for expenses.
As for the TUSC part it is choice if he do or do not join the TUSC, He was elected in as a Labour Councillor its not his fault that he was kick out of the Labour party
[quote][p][bold]FoysCornerBoy[/bold] wrote: Can anyone enlighten me as to how the £8,000 paid last year to Keith, as the leader of the two-man breakaway political group masquerading variously as 'Labour Councillors Against the Cuts' and 'Putting People First', has been used? The City Council's barmy constitution states that leaders of all opposition political groups - no matter what their size - get this payment. I'm also confused as to why Keith is standing as an 'independent' in the current elections and lacks the courage of his convictions to stand under the TUSC banner.[/p][/quote]you find its £2000 and to get that you must be a councillor, in which Keith is, that £2000 is to cover cost that a councillor might have over the year to cover for expenses. As for the TUSC part it is choice if he do or do not join the TUSC, He was elected in as a Labour Councillor its not his fault that he was kick out of the Labour party southy
  • Score: -1

7:42pm Sun 18 May 14

southy says...

Lone Ranger I was hoping you could point out what is really different, but there is none, might as well vote Tory if your voting Labour or the other way round for a vote for one would be the same as a vote for the other
Lone Ranger I was hoping you could point out what is really different, but there is none, might as well vote Tory if your voting Labour or the other way round for a vote for one would be the same as a vote for the other southy
  • Score: -3

8:02pm Sun 18 May 14

Lone Ranger. says...

southy wrote:
Lone Ranger I was hoping you could point out what is really different, but there is none, might as well vote Tory if your voting Labour or the other way round for a vote for one would be the same as a vote for the other
There again Southy i could say a vote for the "Independent" in Coxford or a vote for TUSC is a wasted vote as both are going nowhere and have no influence whatsoever in local or National decisions. ...... But i think that you know that anyway .....
.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: Lone Ranger I was hoping you could point out what is really different, but there is none, might as well vote Tory if your voting Labour or the other way round for a vote for one would be the same as a vote for the other[/p][/quote]There again Southy i could say a vote for the "Independent" in Coxford or a vote for TUSC is a wasted vote as both are going nowhere and have no influence whatsoever in local or National decisions. ...... But i think that you know that anyway ..... . Lone Ranger.
  • Score: 2

12:01am Mon 19 May 14

southy says...

Lone Ranger. wrote:
southy wrote:
Lone Ranger I was hoping you could point out what is really different, but there is none, might as well vote Tory if your voting Labour or the other way round for a vote for one would be the same as a vote for the other
There again Southy i could say a vote for the "Independent" in Coxford or a vote for TUSC is a wasted vote as both are going nowhere and have no influence whatsoever in local or National decisions. ...... But i think that you know that anyway .....
.
Is it what I am hearing for the Coxford ward it is a close run thing voters have not decided who they are going to vote for on the day. Labour or Independent
But then if you vote Labour you might as well vote Tory, and you could also say a vote for the Independent or TUSC in the rest of the city could be enough to put fear into Labour and force them to change or lose voters to the TUSC.
But as for the TUSC they have all ready started to go places winning by-elections, and that as happen with in 4 years how long did it take Labour to win its first election a hell of a lot longer, so on that score the influence as all ready started on local level
[quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: Lone Ranger I was hoping you could point out what is really different, but there is none, might as well vote Tory if your voting Labour or the other way round for a vote for one would be the same as a vote for the other[/p][/quote]There again Southy i could say a vote for the "Independent" in Coxford or a vote for TUSC is a wasted vote as both are going nowhere and have no influence whatsoever in local or National decisions. ...... But i think that you know that anyway ..... .[/p][/quote]Is it what I am hearing for the Coxford ward it is a close run thing voters have not decided who they are going to vote for on the day. Labour or Independent But then if you vote Labour you might as well vote Tory, and you could also say a vote for the Independent or TUSC in the rest of the city could be enough to put fear into Labour and force them to change or lose voters to the TUSC. But as for the TUSC they have all ready started to go places winning by-elections, and that as happen with in 4 years how long did it take Labour to win its first election a hell of a lot longer, so on that score the influence as all ready started on local level southy
  • Score: -2

12:08am Mon 19 May 14

Paramjit Bahia says...

Lone Ranger. wrote:
Paramjit Bahia wrote:
Maine Lobster wrote:
southy wrote:
Maine Lobster wrote:
Lone Ranger. wrote:
Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years.
.
The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that.
.
Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....
Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.
They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.
Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.
It has hardly anything to do with Tories vs NuLabour conflict of ideology, because both are virtually the same.

Last NuLabour regimes of Blair and Brown also kept on with capping policy of Tories before them. If they say what they mean why didn't the hypocrites change policies of Maggie Thatcher?

Even now national leadership of the NuLabour is not promising to completely abolish the harful policies.

Fact even many Tory run Councils and councillors are not happy with what central government under all main parties has been doing to local councils blows big hole in your argument that ConDem Coalition is only against NuLabour Council.

Face the reality our leadership of the Council hasn't got the guts to stand up to bully of all main parties in London, so they are pickling upon us the people by cutting our services and destroying the jobs of workers.

Any flossy sound bites that central government is too powerful so can't be challenged is pathetic excuse. It is very similar to what UK and USA used to say when refusing to boycott South African aparthied, but Nelson Mandela proved them wrong, just as Mahatma Gandhi had challenged the mighty powerful British Empire and succeeded in winning independence for India.

The NuLabourite traitors have conveniently forgotten what Labour was all about and do not want have the courage and convictions of Tolepuddle martyrs on whose sacrifices British Trdae Union and Labour Movement was based. That is why the local mob of Miliband had expelled Don Thomas and Keith Morrell from their Thatcherised party, because Don and Keith opted to remain faithful to ordinary people and serve them well.
Your post is fully understood and i agree with many parts of it ...... and i am not concerned about the bile that you spout either at me ( although not by name )
.
However the fact still remains that a certain number of residents will vote Labour and some others will vote Independent .... Thus splitting the vote (potentially) ..... This is, as i pointed out, where the Tories may steal it.
.
Not once have i doubted the work carried out by Thomas and Morrell.
.
As regards the rest of your rather stupid Political namecalling ..... well i thought that with your experience you may well have been above all of that stuff by now ........ !!
I accept your point that most if not all the votes Keith as independent will get will be from old Labour voters who feel betrayed by NuLabour, especially by expelling their representatives who have kept on fighting on behalf of the people of Coxford.

You may not share my view, but I think answer to the problem would have been for NuLabour to avoid putting any candidate against Keith, that may have gone long way towards healing the bitterness.

Regarding Tories gaining out of divided vote, I don't think that this time Tories are exactly very popular in Coxford, but also hope that I am not wrong. My view is only based on the fact that living in the ward so far I have not seen any sign of Tory activity, but due to back problems I have not been out that much either. Only knocks on the door and regular information through leaflets I get is from Don and Keith. And info on various issues fro Alan Whitehead MP.
[quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Paramjit Bahia[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years. . The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that. . Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....[/p][/quote]Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.[/p][/quote]They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.[/p][/quote]Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.[/p][/quote]It has hardly anything to do with Tories vs NuLabour conflict of ideology, because both are virtually the same. Last NuLabour regimes of Blair and Brown also kept on with capping policy of Tories before them. If they say what they mean why didn't the hypocrites change policies of Maggie Thatcher? Even now national leadership of the NuLabour is not promising to completely abolish the harful policies. Fact even many Tory run Councils and councillors are not happy with what central government under all main parties has been doing to local councils blows big hole in your argument that ConDem Coalition is only against NuLabour Council. Face the reality our leadership of the Council hasn't got the guts to stand up to bully of all main parties in London, so they are pickling upon us the people by cutting our services and destroying the jobs of workers. Any flossy sound bites that central government is too powerful so can't be challenged is pathetic excuse. It is very similar to what UK and USA used to say when refusing to boycott South African aparthied, but Nelson Mandela proved them wrong, just as Mahatma Gandhi had challenged the mighty powerful British Empire and succeeded in winning independence for India. The NuLabourite traitors have conveniently forgotten what Labour was all about and do not want have the courage and convictions of Tolepuddle martyrs on whose sacrifices British Trdae Union and Labour Movement was based. That is why the local mob of Miliband had expelled Don Thomas and Keith Morrell from their Thatcherised party, because Don and Keith opted to remain faithful to ordinary people and serve them well.[/p][/quote]Your post is fully understood and i agree with many parts of it ...... and i am not concerned about the bile that you spout either at me ( although not by name ) . However the fact still remains that a certain number of residents will vote Labour and some others will vote Independent .... Thus splitting the vote (potentially) ..... This is, as i pointed out, where the Tories may steal it. . Not once have i doubted the work carried out by Thomas and Morrell. . As regards the rest of your rather stupid Political namecalling ..... well i thought that with your experience you may well have been above all of that stuff by now ........ !![/p][/quote]I accept your point that most if not all the votes Keith as independent will get will be from old Labour voters who feel betrayed by NuLabour, especially by expelling their representatives who have kept on fighting on behalf of the people of Coxford. You may not share my view, but I think answer to the problem would have been for NuLabour to avoid putting any candidate against Keith, that may have gone long way towards healing the bitterness. Regarding Tories gaining out of divided vote, I don't think that this time Tories are exactly very popular in Coxford, but also hope that I am not wrong. My view is only based on the fact that living in the ward so far I have not seen any sign of Tory activity, but due to back problems I have not been out that much either. Only knocks on the door and regular information through leaflets I get is from Don and Keith. And info on various issues fro Alan Whitehead MP. Paramjit Bahia
  • Score: -1

6:03am Mon 19 May 14

aldermoorboy says...

Well, well here we have it Labour, TUSC me me me parties.

I will be voting Tory for a party that puts the tax payer first and cares for all.

I do respect Don though and if the Tories don't win here I wish him well.

Advice, don't smear state your beliefs honestly or get out of politics.
Well, well here we have it Labour, TUSC me me me parties. I will be voting Tory for a party that puts the tax payer first and cares for all. I do respect Don though and if the Tories don't win here I wish him well. Advice, don't smear state your beliefs honestly or get out of politics. aldermoorboy
  • Score: -1

9:05am Mon 19 May 14

Lone Ranger. says...

Paramjit Bahia wrote:
Lone Ranger. wrote:
Paramjit Bahia wrote:
Maine Lobster wrote:
southy wrote:
Maine Lobster wrote:
Lone Ranger. wrote:
Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years.
.
The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that.
.
Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....
Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.
They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.
Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.
It has hardly anything to do with Tories vs NuLabour conflict of ideology, because both are virtually the same.

Last NuLabour regimes of Blair and Brown also kept on with capping policy of Tories before them. If they say what they mean why didn't the hypocrites change policies of Maggie Thatcher?

Even now national leadership of the NuLabour is not promising to completely abolish the harful policies.

Fact even many Tory run Councils and councillors are not happy with what central government under all main parties has been doing to local councils blows big hole in your argument that ConDem Coalition is only against NuLabour Council.

Face the reality our leadership of the Council hasn't got the guts to stand up to bully of all main parties in London, so they are pickling upon us the people by cutting our services and destroying the jobs of workers.

Any flossy sound bites that central government is too powerful so can't be challenged is pathetic excuse. It is very similar to what UK and USA used to say when refusing to boycott South African aparthied, but Nelson Mandela proved them wrong, just as Mahatma Gandhi had challenged the mighty powerful British Empire and succeeded in winning independence for India.

The NuLabourite traitors have conveniently forgotten what Labour was all about and do not want have the courage and convictions of Tolepuddle martyrs on whose sacrifices British Trdae Union and Labour Movement was based. That is why the local mob of Miliband had expelled Don Thomas and Keith Morrell from their Thatcherised party, because Don and Keith opted to remain faithful to ordinary people and serve them well.
Your post is fully understood and i agree with many parts of it ...... and i am not concerned about the bile that you spout either at me ( although not by name )
.
However the fact still remains that a certain number of residents will vote Labour and some others will vote Independent .... Thus splitting the vote (potentially) ..... This is, as i pointed out, where the Tories may steal it.
.
Not once have i doubted the work carried out by Thomas and Morrell.
.
As regards the rest of your rather stupid Political namecalling ..... well i thought that with your experience you may well have been above all of that stuff by now ........ !!
I accept your point that most if not all the votes Keith as independent will get will be from old Labour voters who feel betrayed by NuLabour, especially by expelling their representatives who have kept on fighting on behalf of the people of Coxford.

You may not share my view, but I think answer to the problem would have been for NuLabour to avoid putting any candidate against Keith, that may have gone long way towards healing the bitterness.

Regarding Tories gaining out of divided vote, I don't think that this time Tories are exactly very popular in Coxford, but also hope that I am not wrong. My view is only based on the fact that living in the ward so far I have not seen any sign of Tory activity, but due to back problems I have not been out that much either. Only knocks on the door and regular information through leaflets I get is from Don and Keith. And info on various issues fro Alan Whitehead MP.
Paramjit ..... like yourself i sincerely hope that the Tories are nowhere to be seen come the results for Coxford or any other ward in Southampton on Thursday ........ I just wish that there was a better outcome between Morrell, Thomas and Labour as i feel that together they are a great team ..... Apart then i am not too sure ...
.
Hope the back improves
[quote][p][bold]Paramjit Bahia[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Paramjit Bahia[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maine Lobster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: Unfortunately there will always be disputes like this when you have breakaway Independent groups desperate for every last vote ... particulary in areas where they have represented one of the the mainstream parties over the years. . The issue here is that all Morrell will do is split the Labour vote and let in the Tories ...... Now what could be worse than that. . Perhaps Thomas and Morrell should have considered that before they decided to jump ship ....... Not only could it lead to a lack of Labour representation in what was a strong Labour ward ..... But could also see the end of the both in local politics ... .....[/p][/quote]Agreed. It is a shame that Don thomas & Keith Morrell split from Labour as they are both good councilors working for their wards. They are however not realistic in recognising Councils all over the country are having to make cuts due to the coalition government slashing council funding to bal out the bankers who caused all the mess. innevitably that harms communities and the way to deal with that is to work to get rid of the Tory led Government. A shame they could not have worried within the administration to contribute to that.[/p][/quote]They are making cuts by choice there is an alternative and that is to fight the government every way they can, but they choose not to, Don and Keith choose to kept the Labour Promise where as the rest of Labour did not they voted for cuts and job loses and Don and Keith got punished for keeping to the Labour promise, One was kick out of the Labour Party the other push out by the Labour party, it was not by choice that Don and Keith left the Labour Party, It was the Councillor in the Redbridge Ward who seat is up for election this year Catherine McEwing who was the Labour Whip at the time who handed out the punishment to Don and Keith, who could of refused to do so but did not she choose to hand out the punishment to Don and Keith.[/p][/quote]Can't agree southy that the current Council are making cuts by choice,that is not what Labour want. They are having the cuts forced on them by slashing council funding. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect any Council to fight the coalition over this. They are pig headed and self interested in looking after the rich. Defeating the Tories at the general election is the only way to do that.[/p][/quote]It has hardly anything to do with Tories vs NuLabour conflict of ideology, because both are virtually the same. Last NuLabour regimes of Blair and Brown also kept on with capping policy of Tories before them. If they say what they mean why didn't the hypocrites change policies of Maggie Thatcher? Even now national leadership of the NuLabour is not promising to completely abolish the harful policies. Fact even many Tory run Councils and councillors are not happy with what central government under all main parties has been doing to local councils blows big hole in your argument that ConDem Coalition is only against NuLabour Council. Face the reality our leadership of the Council hasn't got the guts to stand up to bully of all main parties in London, so they are pickling upon us the people by cutting our services and destroying the jobs of workers. Any flossy sound bites that central government is too powerful so can't be challenged is pathetic excuse. It is very similar to what UK and USA used to say when refusing to boycott South African aparthied, but Nelson Mandela proved them wrong, just as Mahatma Gandhi had challenged the mighty powerful British Empire and succeeded in winning independence for India. The NuLabourite traitors have conveniently forgotten what Labour was all about and do not want have the courage and convictions of Tolepuddle martyrs on whose sacrifices British Trdae Union and Labour Movement was based. That is why the local mob of Miliband had expelled Don Thomas and Keith Morrell from their Thatcherised party, because Don and Keith opted to remain faithful to ordinary people and serve them well.[/p][/quote]Your post is fully understood and i agree with many parts of it ...... and i am not concerned about the bile that you spout either at me ( although not by name ) . However the fact still remains that a certain number of residents will vote Labour and some others will vote Independent .... Thus splitting the vote (potentially) ..... This is, as i pointed out, where the Tories may steal it. . Not once have i doubted the work carried out by Thomas and Morrell. . As regards the rest of your rather stupid Political namecalling ..... well i thought that with your experience you may well have been above all of that stuff by now ........ !![/p][/quote]I accept your point that most if not all the votes Keith as independent will get will be from old Labour voters who feel betrayed by NuLabour, especially by expelling their representatives who have kept on fighting on behalf of the people of Coxford. You may not share my view, but I think answer to the problem would have been for NuLabour to avoid putting any candidate against Keith, that may have gone long way towards healing the bitterness. Regarding Tories gaining out of divided vote, I don't think that this time Tories are exactly very popular in Coxford, but also hope that I am not wrong. My view is only based on the fact that living in the ward so far I have not seen any sign of Tory activity, but due to back problems I have not been out that much either. Only knocks on the door and regular information through leaflets I get is from Don and Keith. And info on various issues fro Alan Whitehead MP.[/p][/quote]Paramjit ..... like yourself i sincerely hope that the Tories are nowhere to be seen come the results for Coxford or any other ward in Southampton on Thursday ........ I just wish that there was a better outcome between Morrell, Thomas and Labour as i feel that together they are a great team ..... Apart then i am not too sure ... . Hope the back improves Lone Ranger.
  • Score: 0

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