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Port of Southampton threatened by tax rises
3:40pm Friday 27th March 2009
THE future of Southampton docks is under threat from Government proposals for a “swingeing” increase in ship taxes.
Some of the port’s biggest customers could see their tax bill for calling at Southampton rise by 67 per cent, prompting widespread concern among the 12,000 workers in the region dependent on the port for work.
Docks bosses said it looked like the industry was “under attack” from the Government and warned major shipping lines could switch to using cheaper foreign rivals.
The hike comes on the back of changes to the way port rates are collected that has landed 25 Southampton port firms with a backdated tax bill of £3.75m.
At the same time, the global recession is hitting the city waterfront with car handling volumes down by almost 50 per cent and container volumes dropping by at least ten per cent.
Now Transport Minister Jim Fitzpatrick wants another shipping tax, known as light dues, to rise as well.
Under his proposals major Southampton container shipping client CMA CGM is reported to face a UK tax increase equivalent to £1.5m a year and the port’s biggest car handling firm Wallennius Wilhelmsen could see its annual tax bill rise by £300,000.
Industry watchers warn they and other companies may decide to use rival ports like Rotterdam in Holland and Le Havre in France, using small, cheaper “feeder” vessels to transfer goods into the UK instead.
Port director Doug Morrison said: “It’s quite scary. What the DFT are proposing is a swingeing increase in light dues. It’s a major issue for us. The whole of the industry is up in arms about it. The big ships would go to the continent and it would only be the small ships that would come to the UK.
This would mean a rise in the cost of transporting goods into the UK and a reduction in the number of jobs in the marine sector.
“Companies like CMA CGM are really struggling at the moment and on top of that they could be hit with this.
“To attack the industry and that’s what this is looking like, is nonsensical. On top of that, the way the valuation office has mishandled the port rates issue, you wonder if the Government understands the industry.
“Anything that adds to the cost of shipping is a threat. It makes me concerned that yet again the Government are putting new taxes on goods coming into the UK and making us less competitive with our European rivals.”
Light dues fund the country’s network of lighthouses and sees ships taxed by weight. Mr Fitzpatrick is proposing the rate climb from 35p a net tonne to 41p, and the cap up to which the rate is payable rise from 35,000 tonnes to 50,000 tonnes. Finally, he suggests ships be liable for the dues on the first nine calls per year as opposed to the first seven currently.
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Your Say YourEcho
Of the Ilk, Eastleigh says...
11:47am Fri 27 Mar 09
southy wrote:I thought Bilbo was a character in The Hobbit!
ah that would explain the rumour i heard then. a top boss of a shipping line been seen in lisbon and bilbo.
Miles Sway, New Scotland says...
11:56am Fri 27 Mar 09
Hants Hammy, Eastleigh says...
12:04pm Fri 27 Mar 09
goard, Southampton says...
12:14pm Fri 27 Mar 09
goard, Southampton says...
12:14pm Fri 27 Mar 09
King Mush, Woolston says...
12:20pm Fri 27 Mar 09
In these cash-strapped times, motorists will just avoid the ever increasing rip-offs and go elsewhere.
Why are so many small shops going under as their potential customers have had enough?
Our foreign port counterparts would dearly love to pinch our status.
Which 'government department' is up to dirty tricks? Maybe some ministers have vested interests just across the Channel?
Common sense dictates that Southampton needs boosting and we have the perfect harbour location with its double tides.
This would be vandalism of the highest calibre if these Westminster Wallies kill off another Golden Goose.
If they succeed in this madness then we can all say goodbye to our future in this once great city of ours.
Derek of Dibden Purlieu, Hampshire says...
12:22pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Hants Hammy, Eastleigh says...
12:28pm Fri 27 Mar 09
I doubt Dibden will even be spoken of again, too many people whined about it, not thinking about what value it would bring.
Totton Ric, Totton says...
12:28pm Fri 27 Mar 09
southy, redbridge says...
12:51pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Hants Hammy wrote:you cant keep dredging deeper with out side effects, there loads of them,ie eroding of the river bed and banks up river, the eroding of bridges foundions, the valley sides slipping and thats just a few problems, the list is very load, then there the added fact thats its not a clear run in to southampton waters the islands is in the way. it would be better to look at calshot and lepe and move the docks down there or over to gosport way. it is idea port but not for the bigger ships. having a secondry high water is a plus but what comes with that is a lower tidal range, where has we only get a 5 mt range over the west side they get a 7 mt range even on the east side the tidal range is bigger, there's a lot of pro's and con's to southampton waters.
Ideal Port, the only hold back is the depth, we could have had many larger ships sooner if only it were dredged deeper. I know there are other factors as well, but surely the wish to expand has to be there from all the Port Authorities.
I doubt Dibden will even be spoken of again, too many people whined about it, not thinking about what value it would bring.
Bright Spark, Hill Head says...
12:56pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Charlie George's Lawnmower, Soton says...
1:00pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Because the goods are coming to and from the UK and it would cost a lot more to dock abroad and lorry/train the goods to the UK.
It won't effect the Cruise Ships for the same reason, they are in Southampton because they are picking up UK passengers.
Another scare story for the sake of it.
southy, redbridge says...
1:11pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Condor Man, Southampton says...
1:26pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Old Man of the Sea, seven seas says...
1:31pm Fri 27 Mar 09
southy wrote:Southy
the problem is c.george's is that the rest off europe has been catching us up fast over the last 25 years, like its cheaper to flying in and out off most places in europe than it is to do that in the uk. i did give warning out a while back that is if spain ever got its act together the uk will be cut out of the market, they got every thing that we got and more, one of them is there more rail lines out of there country than there is out of the uk. they have ports in 2 major seas the atlantic and med had do france, southampton dock has sat on there laura's relying on the fact that this dock is one off a few in the world that has a secondry high water. and is a very big error to make.
1. Your comment about flying is irrelevant - this forum concerns ships.
2. Obviously Spain has got more rail links out of the country. The UK is an island nation.
3. The UK has ports in two major seas. The North Sea and the Atlantic Ocean.
4. To my knowledge, the port of Southampton has never sat on anyone called Laura.
5. Why is relying on the fact of a secondary High Water an error?
Charlie George's Lawnmower, Soton says...
1:38pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Is the purpose of it to come up with the most moronic post possible to win some sort of prize?
southy, redbridge says...
1:40pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Condor Man wrote:i do to condor but then i despise a tory government too, you cant trust any off them they are all out for for there selfs and dont care about the people of this land.
for as much as I despise this government I have to question the logic to this argument. OK, taxes may rise but a shipping line will have to dock somewhere in the UK to unload. If they unload in Cherbourg they'd still need to transport the goods over and it won't all fit in a Brittany Ferry.
the thing is with cargo condor a lot of goods was drop off here in the uk then ship to europe or comes here to be ship to the rest of the world, thats why britain is known has the cross roads off europe.
Hants Hammy, Eastleigh says...
1:42pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Condor Man wrote:No thats right, but with the increase in the light Dues Tax, vessels under 50,000 gross tonnes will be considerably cheaper than the larger vessels currently coming in, and a feeder basis you only pay for the first 9 calls a year so it will be able to call more frequently and probably only need 1 or 2 vessels per line to cover a rotational basis.
for as much as I despise this government I have to question the logic to this argument. OK, taxes may rise but a shipping line will have to dock somewhere in the UK to unload. If they unload in Cherbourg they'd still need to transport the goods over and it won't all fit in a Brittany Ferry.
Hence saving money for the shipping line in the long run and the big ships can feed the European ports adn they have the extra work of the feeders as well.
goard, Southampton says...
1:43pm Fri 27 Mar 09
And the powers to be have no idea or caring as to what they have done to our Nation and the people of Soton.
Goard
Lone Ranger, Southampton says...
1:50pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Redback wrote:Well its nice to dream of something. Lets face it this is never going to happen. The shipping industry beit freight or passenger is just too extensive and lucrative for this part of the Country and will not be closed down.
Bright Spark wrote: The soon to be disused dockland could be re developed to its former glory. River banks and marshes, trout and salmon fishing and nice country walks along the Test Bank.I'm with this. The docks are what is holding Southampton back imo. Our location is FANTASTIC - on the sea, TWO rivers running through, right next to the New Forest, within good distance of the capital and with market towns such as Winchester a stone's throw away. We can't make the most of this potential though, when half the city is blighted by huge cranes and the industrial landscape. Hence, to the eyes of anyone from elsewhere, the place is a sh*t'ole.
I agree the docks, cranes etc are an eyesore but it combines industry, tourism and leisure extremely well.
If you want your riverside walks then they exist only a mile or two away and not in the heart of this, or many other semi industrial Cities. Its been many a year since they did exist and i dont think it will come back
Northamboy, Southampton says...
1:57pm Fri 27 Mar 09
WOW! look! no docks and the good people of Southampton can now see the water!!!
The docks went down the pan in the 60s and 70s so whats left will be no loss
southy, redbridge says...
2:07pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Old Man of the Sea wrote:1/it is a major thing with passengers ships, its an added cost that pass on to passengers that fly in from all over the world to join a ship on a cruise.
southy wrote:Southy
the problem is c.george's is that the rest off europe has been catching us up fast over the last 25 years, like its cheaper to flying in and out off most places in europe than it is to do that in the uk. i did give warning out a while back that is if spain ever got its act together the uk will be cut out of the market, they got every thing that we got and more, one of them is there more rail lines out of there country than there is out of the uk. they have ports in 2 major seas the atlantic and med had do france, southampton dock has sat on there laura's relying on the fact that this dock is one off a few in the world that has a secondry high water. and is a very big error to make.
1. Your comment about flying is irrelevant - this forum concerns ships.
2. Obviously Spain has got more rail links out of the country. The UK is an island nation.
3. The UK has ports in two major seas. The North Sea and the Atlantic Ocean.
4. To my knowledge, the port of Southampton has never sat on anyone called Laura.
5. Why is relying on the fact of a secondary High Water an error?
2/ yes and thats a problem to rail stuff though the channel rail link puts on extra cost that has to pass on to the customers.
3/the north sea in not a major sea, its a marginal sea to the atlantic, its not included in the 7 sea list.( atlantic, mediterranean, southern, artic, carrabean & gulf of mexico, indain and the pacific).
4/ they all ways have sat on there butts and rely on the fact we have a secondry high water, and ships dont need this to off load and off load all thats need is a clearance off water between river/sea bed and the keel or the lowest part of the ship, this is why its an error.
Miles Sway, New Scotland says...
2:10pm Fri 27 Mar 09
1 - know nothing about the subject matter
2 - pretend you do or alternatively make a completely irrelevant comment.
3 - insult anyone who disagrees
4 - change your ID and then comment in a 3rd party way in support of your views.
5 - if you're angry, WRITE IN CAPS AND BLAME THE SCUM SUCKING BANKERS FOR EVERYTHING.
6 - Don't take any of it too seriously.
Miles Sway, New Scotland says...
2:11pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Charlie George's Lawnmower, Soton says...
1:38pm Fri 27 Mar 09
I'm sort of new to this comments feature on this website.
Is the purpose of it to come up with the most moronic post possible to win some sort of prize?
Miles Sway, New Scotland says...
2:20pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Rule 7 - you cannot under any circumstance suggest the bloke/girl in the article picture is a pie-eating lard-ar5e even if he/she obviously is, as his/her mates will get upset and have your posts removed.
That's about it.
southy, redbridge says...
2:42pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Old Man of the Sea, seven seas says...
2:46pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Once again you are wrong. You listed 8 seas (most of them Oceans). To get a more balanced view, I recommend you read the following:-
The Seven Seas is a figurative term referring to all the seas and oceans of the world and the correct answer to the question depends on whom you ask, or what reference material you use.
Many experts and encyclopedias will list the modern Seven Seas as the:
Arctic
Antarctic
North and South Atlantic
North and the South Pacific
and the Indian Ocean
During the Age of Discovery (1450-1650), some list the Seven Seas as the then seven navigable seas of the world:
Atlantic
Arctic
Indian
and Pacific Oceans
and the
Mediterranean Sea,
the Caribbean Sea,
and the Gulf of Mexico
While others disagree and report the ancient Seven Seas to be the:
Mediterranean Sea
Red Sea
Black Sea
Adriatic Sea
Caspian Sea
and the
Persian Gulf
and the Indian Ocean
And it doesn't end there.... The ancient Hindus, Chinese, Persians, Romans and more referred to the Seven Seas as completely different bodies of water.
I fail to see how you can use the freight costs in the Tunnel as a factor - it will have to travel through one way or the other.
The under-keel clearance for a vessel transitting the port is extended by a secondary high tide by time, not draught. If a vessel relies on the height of the tide to get into port, then this period extends its passage window, it doesn't magically dredge the port deeper.
southy, redbridge says...
3:09pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Arctic
Antarctic
North and South Atlantic
North and the South Pacific
and the Indian Ocean
read it again this is just one of small veriables and its not antarctic its called the southernern ocean the main list is what i listed has the seven sea but there are small verables between land lumbers, any way wheres your north sea on that list, and i only listed 7 carrabean and gulf off mexico is counted has one the north and south pacific is counted has one has with north/south atlantic, and i take it from the navy not some land lumber book like i can put 6 crease in my trousers because i have work on ships that has sailed in 6 out of the 7 seas. and if you been to deep sea your self you will know this.
sending though the tunnel is very expensive. and is very limited.
clearence under the keel counts when its low water not at high water, how do you think they cope in china where the range is greater than it is here and they dont rely on high water to bring in ships in and out, its only southampton that relys on the secondry high water no other port do. think about it for a long while.
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
3:11pm Fri 27 Mar 09
He was recently wrong about the concrete batching ship on 201 berth (it is a laid Up LPG carrier, wrong about Thames Gateway working around the clock (DPW suspended work months ago)wrong about the Oceanography Centre being based in Taunton (they vacated in 1985)oh and a few more into the bargain.
Despite this dear old Southey is always an entertaining, fictional,read.
Long in the tooth, Winchester says...
3:24pm Fri 27 Mar 09
I know 'The Old Man of the Sea' to be a highly respected, recently retired Master Mariner who has more nautical knowledge in his big toe than you've got in your whole body. He is educated, erudite and able to argue a point from fact. You, Dear Southy, are on the other hand a semi-literate, ill-informed moron who seems to like nothing better than to slag off ABP and the Docks. Without the Port as an economic generator, the City would indeed be in terminal decline...
Old Man of the Sea, seven seas says...
3:26pm Fri 27 Mar 09
southy wrote:Sorry Southy
Many experts and encyclopedias will list the modern Seven Seas as the: Arctic Antarctic North and South Atlantic North and the South Pacific and the Indian Ocean read it again this is just one of small veriables and its not antarctic its called the southernern ocean the main list is what i listed has the seven sea but there are small verables between land lumbers, any way wheres your north sea on that list, and i only listed 7 carrabean and gulf off mexico is counted has one the north and south pacific is counted has one has with north/south atlantic, and i take it from the navy not some land lumber book like i can put 6 crease in my trousers because i have work on ships that has sailed in 6 out of the 7 seas. and if you been to deep sea your self you will know this. sending though the tunnel is very expensive. and is very limited. clearence under the keel counts when its low water not at high water, how do you think they cope in china where the range is greater than it is here and they dont rely on high water to bring in ships in and out, its only southampton that relys on the secondry high water no other port do. think about it for a long while.
Once again. What is a lumber? Do you mean lubber? Which Navy are you referring to? Not the Merchant Navy - incidentally, I was deep sea for 40 years, carry a Master's FG and have worked out of Shanghai amongst other Chinese ports. What are your MN qualifications? The Southern Ocean and the Antarctic are two different Oceans. I have been in both.
Clearance under the keel counts at all points of the tide. When it reaches zero you go agound! Southampton doesn't rely on it, it benefits from it.
Oh, one last thing, the only creases in a MN uniform are there when the dry-cleaner isn't too good.
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
3:33pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Redback wrote:Redback
Bright Spark wrote: The soon to be disused dockland could be re developed to its former glory. River banks and marshes, trout and salmon fishing and nice country walks along the Test Bank.I'm with this. The docks are what is holding Southampton back imo. Our location is FANTASTIC - on the sea, TWO rivers running through, right next to the New Forest, within good distance of the capital and with market towns such as Winchester a stone's throw away. We can't make the most of this potential though, when half the city is blighted by huge cranes and the industrial landscape. Hence, to the eyes of anyone from elsewhere, the place is a sh*t'ole.
How long have you lived in Soton?
The population of the town was less than 20,000 when the commercial port was first developed in the 1840's and since then the population has increased in line with port development. Believe it or not port activity which brings with it cranes and industrial development have been the driver of local prosperity since then.
Did you know that, under pressure from local people, one quayside crane has had to be preserved for prosperity?
btw agree with the post from Charlie George's lawnmower. The Port rates problem is a challenge for port customers in Soton but nowhere as bad as in Liverpool/Hull/Birke
nhead and Tilbury where port companies have gone bust because of this retroactive tax.
Mention has also been made about increased Light Dues.
Not many people know that there are 3 separate Lighthouse authorities in the Uk all with highly paid staff doing similar jobs.
The Uk Govt contributes approx £12m a year to pay for the marine safety of another sovereign nation ie the Irish Republic I find this amazing.
Also, altho the lighthouses/safety buoys are there to protect leisure sailors it is only commercial shipping concerns who are obliged to pay
southy, redbridge says...
3:45pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Ben Doone wrote:ben i did not say it was a concrete batching ship i said it look like one from the angle i was at when i see it
Sou,they wrong. Shock horror!!
He was recently wrong about the concrete batching ship on 201 berth (it is a laid Up LPG carrier, wrong about Thames Gateway working around the clock (DPW suspended work months ago)wrong about the Oceanography Centre being based in Taunton (they vacated in 1985)oh and a few more into the bargain.
Despite this dear old Southey is always an entertaining, fictional,read.
so please do quote me right and not wrongly
Old Man of the Sea, seven seas says...
3:46pm Fri 27 Mar 09
To all our readers: Sorry about not being able to type aground in my last entry. Put it down to fingers not working as fast as I thought.
To Southy: For info, from the RN Website:
Bell Bottomed Trousers
Bell bottomed trousers were another 'icon' of the square rig uniform. These were practical garments for men who worked sailing ships since they could be rolled up securely to clear the feet and ankles when working the rigging. In common with all other items of a sailor's kit, trousers were kept folded ready for use in a kit bag. Kept inside out to avoid fluff on the outer surface and to avoid 'shine' by ironing, they were folded horizontally at about a hand's width and taped into a rectangular 'block'. When worn, this produced inverted vertical creases down the side of the leg and five or seven, depending on the height of the wearer, horizontal creases down the leg. In time these were accepted as the thing to have and were pressed firmly into place from the early years of the century. Since the First World War bell bottoms were purchased for tradition rather than any practical use but were replaced by flared trousers in 1977. No mention of 6 creases.
southy, redbridge says...
3:55pm Fri 27 Mar 09
gateway was only holted for a short while so they could sort about a problem ( the concrete bases under some off operation plants was hollow under neath them and they need to know why and how to sort the problem out).
goard, Southampton says...
3:58pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Goard
southy, redbridge says...
4:01pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Miles Sway wrote:you see the point now Charlie George's Lawnmower that miles was making. still while they picking on me they leaving the rest alone
LOL - you're not that far from the reality. As I understand it the rules are;
1 - know nothing about the subject matter
2 - pretend you do or alternatively make a completely irrelevant comment.
3 - insult anyone who disagrees
4 - change your ID and then comment in a 3rd party way in support of your views.
5 - if you're angry, WRITE IN CAPS AND BLAME THE SCUM SUCKING BANKERS FOR EVERYTHING.
6 - Don't take any of it too seriously.
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
4:35pm Fri 27 Mar 09
No one is 'picking on you' per se.
Unfortunately a good deal of what you say is 10% fact, 90% fiction and those of us who care about Southampton are forced to correct the wrong stuff otherwise this then becomes fact with casual readers.
For example, you are completeley wrong about London Gateway. The owners Dubai World recently went into print - see Lloyds List earlier this week- stating they are 'reviewing' development options at London Gateway.
To underscore this the joint contractors there,Laing O'Rourke and Dredging Intefrnational, have done nothing on the project for many months.
It is worthwile you subscribing to Lloyds List as it really gives you an up to date window on marine matters. Much better than your mate down the pub in Eling
IanRRR, N Baddesley says...
5:24pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Thanks to everyone who has given me so much good information, and better laughs than a whole series of "The League of Gentlemen." They could write a whole new series based on some of the characters here!
Redback, Southampton says...
5:32pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Ben Doone wrote:Ben:
Redback wrote:Redback
Bright Spark wrote: The soon to be disused dockland could be re developed to its former glory. River banks and marshes, trout and salmon fishing and nice country walks along the Test Bank.I'm with this. The docks are what is holding Southampton back imo. Our location is FANTASTIC - on the sea, TWO rivers running through, right next to the New Forest, within good distance of the capital and with market towns such as Winchester a stone's throw away. We can't make the most of this potential though, when half the city is blighted by huge cranes and the industrial landscape. Hence, to the eyes of anyone from elsewhere, the place is a sh*t'ole.
How long have you lived in Soton?
The population of the town was less than 20,000 when the commercial port was first developed in the 1840's and since then the population has increased in line with port development. Believe it or not port activity which brings with it cranes and industrial development have been the driver of local prosperity since then.
Did you know that, under pressure from local people, one quayside crane has had to be preserved for prosperity?
btw agree with the post from Charlie George's lawnmower. The Port rates problem is a challenge for port customers in Soton but nowhere as bad as in Liverpool/Hull/Birke
nhead and Tilbury where port companies have gone bust because of this retroactive tax.
Mention has also been made about increased Light Dues.
Not many people know that there are 3 separate Lighthouse authorities in the Uk all with highly paid staff doing similar jobs.
The Uk Govt contributes approx £12m a year to pay for the marine safety of another sovereign nation ie the Irish Republic I find this amazing.
Also, altho the lighthouses/safety buoys are there to protect leisure sailors it is only commercial shipping concerns who are obliged to pay
Brought up in Locks Heath until about 11, moved away (Edinburgh, Glasgow, London, other places) until I was about 23, and been back here about 7, 8 years now. So, not since 1840 (!), but not exactly a stranger to the City either.
Thanks for the info. I can well believe that the docks drove Southampton's growth. I'm sure that they are still very profitable. I'm not at all convinced that it's the people of Southampton that benefit nowadays though.
I didn't know about the quayside crane, but am very glad one has been preserved as you say. Something like that could be a unique and fitting centrepiece for a redeveloped area.
Times change. Southampton can be proud of its past without wearing it as a millstone round the neck.
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
6:04pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Appreciate your reasoned response.
However if ABP ever decided to withdraw from port operations tomorrow what are the alternatives? A significant of local and national tax,plus relatively well paid employment, is generated from port activity. Take this away and what do you have? More shopping/more housing/more industrial units? In essence I have no real problems with this but there always needs to be a commercial mix to even out peaks and troughs.
Interestingly I was talking to some people the other day who used to work in London Docks when it was v busy. They hate the 'yuppyisation' of the old London Docks and miss the constant stream of commercial vessels along the Thames. I have had similar discussions with ex port people from Manchester & Preston who's livehood's disappeared when their ports closed.
Also despite negative comments from naysayers like my old mate Southey , in tonnage terms the Port of Southampton has never been so busy (well up until the recent recession which is hitting all ports worldwide)so the port must be doing something right. I suggest, that it is in the best interest of all those local to Soton to preserve and develop port related jobs at a time when many established companies in the vicinity are struggling or have disappeared.
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
6:14pm Fri 27 Mar 09
IanRRR wrote:Ian
This has to be the most entertaining and informative thread for ages. Thanks to everyone who has given me so much good information, and better laughs than a whole series of "The League of Gentlemen." They could write a whole new series based on some of the characters here!
Not familiar with the Leaugue of Gentlemen from where I'm sat.
Can you enlighten me with basic details pl.
Suggest Sean Connery for my role. The guy whom played Uncle Albert in Fools & Horses for Southy
Redback, Southampton says...
6:24pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Some people will always miss what was familiar. That's not a good enough reason on its own though, for me. If places stay still, they die. This city has so much untapped potential, but it can't make the most of it in its current form.
My maritime knowledge is limited to Mirrors, Toppers & sailboards, so I'm probably unaware of a lot of reasons here - but couldn't the whole operation at least be consolidated around Fawley? The place is an eyesore already; if the industrial shipping could be shifted there then that would open up Southampton to develop its waterfronts whilst still benefiting economically.
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
6:40pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Fawley Refinery may be an eyesore but it is another very significant contributor to the economic well being of the South Hampshire area, particularly the Waterside. I believe one day Fawley may close and the effect on the area will be dramatic. Exxon/Mobil are a very large employer who, I believe, look after their staff and are sympathetic to the needs of their neighbours.
There was, of course, a plan to develop a big port on reclaimed land, opposite Soton, at Dibden Bay, so the port did try to move forward,but that's another story.
Saintsteve, Southampton says...
7:26pm Fri 27 Mar 09
D'Arcy Sarto, Hythe says...
7:48pm Fri 27 Mar 09
My view, Soton says...
8:06pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Miles Sway, New Scotland says...
9:14pm Fri 27 Mar 09
My view wrote:So Dave Cameron's told you in advance that's what he'll do to sort out the mire Gordon and co will be leaving?
Wait for Cameron to become PM, and then there will be very hefty tax rises. This will be partly to pay for bailing out the banks. VAT at 30%? Income tax standard rate at 25p in the £?
Bright Spark, Hill Head says...
9:55pm Fri 27 Mar 09
Ben Doone wrote:Goard could play Jim Trott from Vicar of Dibley "No, no, no, no, no, but ..." and Bright Spark of course would be played by David Craig.
IanRRR wrote: This has to be the most entertaining and informative thread for ages. Thanks to everyone who has given me so much good information, and better laughs than a whole series of "The League of Gentlemen." They could write a whole new series based on some of the characters here!Ian Not familiar with the Leaugue of Gentlemen from where I'm sat. Can you enlighten me with basic details pl. Suggest Sean Connery for my role. The guy whom played Uncle Albert in Fools & Horses for Southy
Bright Spark, Hill Head says...
9:57pm Fri 27 Mar 09
southy, redbridge says...
12:31pm Sat 28 Mar 09
southy, redbridge says...
1:28pm Sat 28 Mar 09
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
3:41pm Sat 28 Mar 09
Soton is already able to take large container ships and, if 201/2 berths are ever returned to container use, it will be able to accommodate the v large Maersk vessels.
As regards the effect of dredging I am sure there are any number of hoops ABP has to jump thro to satisfy the many marine and environmental bodies who regulate the port, river and coastal areas.
As regards moving the port towards the sea. Where do you recommend and lets have your idea on the cost as this would have to be passed onto the customer.
btw re the first post on this thread. Who is this mysterious 'top boss from a shipping line seen in Lisbon & Bilbo (sic)'?
Is your mate from the pub on holiday in Iberia at the moment and spied the mystery man in two separate locations hundred of miles apart?
southy, redbridge says...
1:56pm Sun 29 Mar 09
no doubt they did jump though hoops, but nature will be nature and it will try and undo the damage that humans do, or it will give a big kick back. the river test has a natural 8 knots speed, and dredging has increase the speed on the out ward tide, its also push the in coming tide speed up to. need to remember those bridges was built before the container port was. the design of the bridges was for how the water flowed then and not a man made increase flow, the erodion on the river bed and banks go up pass the tidal reach, what normaly takes over a 100 years to do, is now being done in 10 years.
best places for a docks now days for us is calshot or gosport or both. deep water and a very much straighter line to berth up. it might be costly to do but it will be cheaper in the long run or lose it all and just become a feeder port whitch is the cheapest all.
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
5:11pm Sun 29 Mar 09
Two points here
1. Pl dont post unsubstantiated rumours otherwise I will ask the Echo to make you stand in the naughty corner!!
2.Where on earth would you build a container,cruise,ro/
ro and bulk port at Gosport for heavens sake?
Forgetting the billion pounds worth of cost involved, and the loss of local tax revenue to Soton, the failed Didben Bay proect would give you a clue that some people do not want a relocated port in their backyard
southy, redbridge says...
10:43am Mon 30 Mar 09
a cruise docks can go at calshot and the rest can go at gosport it be cheaper in the long run. if it stay where it is then southampton only come a feeder port, because ships are going to get longer and wider and deeper. its no good thinking short term you goot to be able to think very long term. your going to lose the local tax revenue in the end any way.
oh and the other thing thats why i said its a rumour for it was info pass down though another person. for all i know he could of been at those to places for a holiday but some how i doubt it, did not p.o say some thing about a port in med on the spanish coast. could be all connected just aft to wait and see what happens.
veracity, Sholing says...
11:44am Mon 30 Mar 09
problems on the road/rail bridges are caused primarily by traffic wear and tear not the effect of water!!
anyway i thought you worked in the docks. did you, or your extended family, protest when the docks were extended in the 30's and 60's?
what are you and your brother going to do when the docks move to calshot/gosport?
make sure your nurse ensures you have a good supply of tablets. your posts are getting more delussional by the week
southy, redbridge says...
1:38pm Mon 30 Mar 09
veracity wrote:maybe you should read the whole off it not parts that suits you, problems on over use of the transport system is one thing and yes and there is a lot off wear and tear there to. but was not on about traffic problems, was on about water erodion, moving water will erode about any thing thats in its way. what happens on top of the road is one thing what happens at the foundions is another, unless cars and lorrys can travel under water.
you sound more lik ramblin syd rumpole the more you post old chap.
problems on the road/rail bridges are caused primarily by traffic wear and tear not the effect of water!!
anyway i thought you worked in the docks. did you, or your extended family, protest when the docks were extended in the 30's and 60's?
what are you and your brother going to do when the docks move to calshot/gosport?
make sure your nurse ensures you have a good supply of tablets. your posts are getting more delussional by the week
if they move down the to the solent thats no hardship for the dock workers many all ready live out off southampton has it is. any way it be posable to travel down there by water like what my grandad did before western docks was built, and yes we did object at the time in the 60's for the container port location that it was in the wrong location, so veracity stop taking those pills that you are on you might be able to catch up on the debate.
veracity, Sholing says...
4:18pm Mon 30 Mar 09
take way the docks and the water will still move and erode.
what causes most problems to foundations is the downward pressure on bridges by heavy and constant traffic.
ask any civil engineer
btw how do you know that 'most' dockworkers live out of southampton.
do you have a register of all their addresses or is this another unproven southy 'fact'?
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
4:31pm Mon 30 Mar 09
He used the phrase 'Cogito ergo sum' ie 'I think therefore I am'
His Eling based counterpart, dear old Southy, prefers the phrase 'I think therefore it is fact'
Sorry I don't have the Latin translation to hand!!
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
4:41pm Mon 30 Mar 09
Fabian Desartes came over to England in the 1960's to play for Melchester Rovers along with outside right Pierre Dupont.
What a team, with Blackie Gray at inside right, Tubby Morton in goal and the evergreen Roy Race at centre forward. Those were the days!!
Miles Sway, New Scotland says...
10:52pm Mon 30 Mar 09
Ben Doone wrote:Raised a smile, won't see those names appearing anywhere else soon!
Correction. The French philosopher was Descartes (with a 'c')
Fabian Desartes came over to England in the 1960's to play for Melchester Rovers along with outside right Pierre Dupont.
What a team, with Blackie Gray at inside right, Tubby Morton in goal and the evergreen Roy Race at centre forward. Those were the days!!
Thanks for the memory.
Redback, Southampton says...
12:48pm Tue 31 Mar 09
Ben Doone wrote:Which brings us to the best joke in the world:
I am sure you have heard of the French philosopher Desartes. He used the phrase 'Cogito ergo sum' ie 'I think therefore I am' His Eling based counterpart, dear old Southy, prefers the phrase 'I think therefore it is fact' Sorry I don't have the Latin translation to hand!!
"I am therefore I think"
That's putting Descartes before the horse.
southy, redbridge says...
12:59pm Tue 31 Mar 09
veracity wrote:if you return the channel back to its natural depth, the water speed is slower, any good water bridge engineer will tell you this, and they would also tell you that bridge foundions are design to push downwards with the anchor balance is to the sides to take the wieght and pull or push to the sides, and your theory would not account for the deeping of the the deep pools that have been holding about 10 feet at low water for about 40 years then suddenly getting deeper and are about 25 feet at low water thats happen in the last 15 years, if you spent your time and go down to the 5 arch bridges and look at the supporting bank you can see the damage done to it though the increase water speed, then look up river and look down on the river bed you can see more damage though the same reason. then go to the beach between the road bridge and the single arch bridge and look at the wall theres a crack running though the wall due to the water pressure on the other side of the bridge due to the water speed thats only happen in the last ten years, then look up on the banks its that bad the EA are worried about it, they have got white wooden stakes in the ground to measure the rate off erodion
yeah i get the basic principle that moving water will erode. you seem to put erosion of the bridges over the test on the docks.
take way the docks and the water will still move and erode.
what causes most problems to foundations is the downward pressure on bridges by heavy and constant traffic.
ask any civil engineer
btw how do you know that 'most' dockworkers live out of southampton.
do you have a register of all their addresses or is this another unproven southy 'fact'?
southy, redbridge says...
1:11pm Tue 31 Mar 09
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
7:43pm Tue 31 Mar 09
Bearing in mind Soton Water is basically self scouring ie only needs minimal dredging, the only way to reduce the current draught would be to fill in the channel to restore 'natural draught'
Ain't never going to happen.
btw do you really know the majority of the several hundred dock workers?
Of course years ago most Dock workers lived in Northam & Chapel
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
7:45pm Tue 31 Mar 09
Redback wrote:Redback
Ben Doone wrote: I am sure you have heard of the French philosopher Desartes. He used the phrase 'Cogito ergo sum' ie 'I think therefore I am' His Eling based counterpart, dear old Southy, prefers the phrase 'I think therefore it is fact' Sorry I don't have the Latin translation to hand!!Which brings us to the best joke in the world: "I am therefore I think" That's putting Descartes before the horse.
Thanks for reminding me of this. Brilliant!!
southy, redbridge says...
1:58pm Wed 1 Apr 09
Ben Doone wrote:i know ben, but in the 50, kids in that that got married started have kids of there on and moved in the new estate (millbrook hous est now call millbrook park ) redbridge, my own grandad on my mum side lived in marine parade before getting bomb out in the ww2, and from there they move into millbrook, atot of the familys in that area who got bomb our all moved to the same area off millbrook (amphill and a round there)there was not much left in the area of chaple and back of the walls near the end off the ww2, dad side came from millbook it self. my parents move in to the new housing est in 50's while the est was still being built.
Southy
Bearing in mind Soton Water is basically self scouring ie only needs minimal dredging, the only way to reduce the current draught would be to fill in the channel to restore 'natural draught'
Ain't never going to happen.
btw do you really know the majority of the several hundred dock workers?
Of course years ago most Dock workers lived in Northam & Chapel
or the river will keep wearing away above the dredge channel till it levels it self off, whitch in turn will destroy the bridges if nothing is done, it will just under mine the foundions of the bridges, this is one reason why the docks will not get permission to go any deeper than they have now, untill a solution is found.
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
5:48pm Wed 1 Apr 09
I bet you a 1,000 dirhams that ABP WILL get permission for a deeper channel dredge in the near future
southy, redbridge says...
1:53pm Thu 2 Apr 09
there is another problem for the docks to think about the valley sides if they become to wet they will slip into southampton waters. that cost is rising for the docks, with every problem that comes up.
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
2:08pm Thu 2 Apr 09
southy, redbridge says...
2:39pm Thu 2 Apr 09
Ben Doone, Dubai says...
7:16pm Thu 2 Apr 09
southy, redbridge says...
10:44am Fri 3 Apr 09
southy, redbridge says...
10:48am Fri 3 Apr 09
Ventura in Southampton Docks
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southy, redbridge says...
11:41am Fri 27 Mar 09