Have they thought of the impact on the roads surrounding the docks if they are looking at more than doubling the passengers using the port each year?

It is a nightmare already!

Here's Southampton's 'WOW' factor...

"Wow, look at the traffic queued back along Mountbatten Way. Do you think we'll make it to the ship before she sails?"

No doubt this will be managed by ABP in it's usual muddled way. Anyone remember Dibden Bay?

I'm sure if the proposals for Dibden Bay had been for a cruise termainal then the outcome would have been completely different :)

Why don't they stick a cruise terminal at RAF Hythe? Brownfield site, etc and wouldn't take up room on an already heavily populated port. Or move the cruise terminals down to Portsmouth

Why don't they stick a cruise terminal at RAF Hythe? Brownfield site, etc and wouldn't take up room on an already heavily populated port. Or move the cruise terminals down to Portsmouth

Plenty of room at Dibden
Bay !

Ted wrote:
Why don't they stick a cruise terminal at RAF Hythe? Brownfield site, etc and wouldn't take up room on an already heavily populated port. Or move the cruise terminals down to Portsmouth

not to portsmouth

Ted wrote:
Why don't they stick a cruise terminal at RAF Hythe? Brownfield site, etc and wouldn't take up room on an already heavily populated port. Or move the cruise terminals down to Portsmouth

The reason that cruise ships, of the size currently berthing in Southampton, can't use Portsmouth is that they are not able to enter the narrow harbour entrance.
Incidently, when the new Royal Navy aircraft carriers come into service they will almost certainly be dry docking in Southampton as that is where the faciltiies are that are of a size to accommodate vessels of this size. Portsmouth really is a smalltime port with facilities to match

Ted wrote:
Why don't they stick a cruise terminal at RAF Hythe? Brownfield site, etc and wouldn't take up room on an already heavily populated port. Or move the cruise terminals down to Portsmouth

That would be a great idea....IF...the local road system could take the extra traffic !! If Southampton can't handle it how can Hythe !!

Did you think this out ? wrote:

Ted wrote: Why don't they stick a cruise terminal at RAF Hythe? Brownfield site, etc and wouldn't take up room on an already heavily populated port. Or move the cruise terminals down to Portsmouth

That would be a great idea....IF...the local road system could take the extra traffic !! If Southampton can't handle it how can Hythe !!

The big problem is ABP have for many years mis-managed the ports' infrastructure with not much thought for the long term. Any changes made around the port have been short term fixes to cure problems happening at that time. They're really not good at building for the future hence the cruise terminals being a mish mash of new and old buildings spread across their estate unlike other much better managed ports that have had the foresight to create the infrastructure able to hold multiple cruise ships in an organised manner. Go to Miami and even New York to see how it's done properly.

ABP are also guilty of arrogance by assuming that they were going to win the planning for Dibden Bay planning and therefore putting all the eggs into one basket. Buying RAF Hythe and building new berths is probably a good idea as it'll however the local roads would have to be improved but you only have to look at the traffic around the dock gates to see that they don't handle incoming traffic all that well. It's obvious that there's a severe lack of space on the port estate and putting in more cruise terminals will have a knock on effect to some of the other industries that use the port. They'll be edged out to make way for the 2 big players, containers and cruise so any expanding of the cruise business will invariably have a negative effect as well. Why doesn't ABP buy up some of the land around the M271 and use that as a holding area for containers etc and then invest in improving the access into the port? I fear that there really is no foresight into the future of the port industry locally which in turn can only be bad for Southampton.

Bring back Southampton Terminus Station, it will free up the roads, could always set up a train to Terminus n then coach it to the shpi further up the road, is it me, or simple things ot hard to think of now adays?

Ian,

Interested to know what experience you have in transport matters from your home in Lyndhurst. Have you a solution for the appalling traffic congestion around your homestead??

Why is New York 'better managed' than Soton. The cruise terminals in NYC are a 'mish mash' of old facilities in Manhatten and new facilities in Brooklyn. Traffic issues are far worse than Soton.
Miami port is part financed by Dade County. Bet you would be up in arms if Soton City Council Tax paid for port infrastructure improvements(oh no you won't as you live within NFDC territory so can snipe at Soton related from afar).
Re Dibden Bay, suggest you read the Inspectors Report. Light bed time reading!!
In my view the arrogance came from your neighbours in Hythe Marina who moved next to Dibden Bay (an area designated from the 1960's for port development)and then complained when a development scheme was proposed.
Interested to learn what areas you suggest are available and can be bought up around the M271 for holding areas (note any available area is primarily Green Belt land or under the control of Test Valley)
Also to answer Ted, RAF Hythe has been purchased by SEEDA(a regional Govt Quango)and leased to an an American Company building expensive yachts. No depth of water alongside for anything bar shallow draught vessels

Short sighted, eggs in one basket, lack of vision sounds like the commercial scope of ABP senior management.

James wrote:
Ian, Interested to know what experience you have in transport matters from your home in Lyndhurst. Have you a solution for the appalling traffic congestion around your homestead?? Why is New York 'better managed' than Soton. The cruise terminals in NYC are a 'mish mash' of old facilities in Manhatten and new facilities in Brooklyn. Traffic issues are far worse than Soton. Miami port is part financed by Dade County. Bet you would be up in arms if Soton City Council Tax paid for port infrastructure improvements(oh no you won't as you live within NFDC territory so can snipe at Soton related from afar). Re Dibden Bay, suggest you read the Inspectors Report. Light bed time reading!! In my view the arrogance came from your neighbours in Hythe Marina who moved next to Dibden Bay (an area designated from the 1960's for port development)and then complained when a development scheme was proposed. Interested to learn what areas you suggest are available and can be bought up around the M271 for holding areas (note any available area is primarily Green Belt land or under the control of Test Valley) Also to answer Ted, RAF Hythe has been purchased by SEEDA(a regional Govt Quango)and leased to an an American Company building expensive yachts. No depth of water alongside for anything bar shallow draught vessels

James,

I have a lot of experience having worked in NY. Also, you're assuming that because I live in Lyndhurst I have nothing to do with Southampton, regardless of the fact that my business is here. Hmm.

I saw at first hand the arrogance of ABP assuming that they were going to walk the inquiry. If I remember correctly ABP lost that didn't they? Even though I live outside of the city I did see the benefit to the local community on having the container port enlarged.

In addition, if the draughts around Hythe are too shallow how on earth did ABP think they were going to stick 6 containers next to it then? I think they call it dredging. In fact, why not building the berths further out into the water?

The tone and direction of your answer smacks at the same lack of foresight and vision that ABP have come up over the years. Will any of the smaller businesses on the port have their rents increases substantially and then be forced off the port estate to make way for all these cruise terminals?

James wrote:
Ian, Interested to know what experience you have in transport matters from your home in Lyndhurst. Have you a solution for the appalling traffic congestion around your homestead?? Why is New York 'better managed' than Soton. The cruise terminals in NYC are a 'mish mash' of old facilities in Manhatten and new facilities in Brooklyn. Traffic issues are far worse than Soton. Miami port is part financed by Dade County. Bet you would be up in arms if Soton City Council Tax paid for port infrastructure improvements(oh no you won't as you live within NFDC territory so can snipe at Soton related from afar). Re Dibden Bay, suggest you read the Inspectors Report. Light bed time reading!! In my view the arrogance came from your neighbours in Hythe Marina who moved next to Dibden Bay (an area designated from the 1960's for port development)and then complained when a development scheme was proposed. Interested to learn what areas you suggest are available and can be bought up around the M271 for holding areas (note any available area is primarily Green Belt land or under the control of Test Valley) Also to answer Ted, RAF Hythe has been purchased by SEEDA(a regional Govt Quango)and leased to an an American Company building expensive yachts. No depth of water alongside for anything bar shallow draught vessels

James,

I have a lot of experience having worked in NY. Also, you're assuming that because I live in Lyndhurst I have nothing to do with Southampton, regardless of the fact that my business is here. Hmm.

I saw at first hand the arrogance of ABP assuming that they were going to walk the inquiry. If I remember correctly ABP lost that didn't they? Even though I live outside of the city I did see the benefit to the local community on having the container port enlarged.

In addition, if the draughts around Hythe are too shallow how on earth did ABP think they were going to stick 6 containers next to it then? I think they call it dredging. In fact, why not building the berths further out into the water?

The tone and direction of your answer smacks at the same lack of foresight and vision that ABP have come up over the years. Will any of the smaller businesses on the port have their rents increases substantially and then be forced off the port estate to make way for all these cruise terminals?

Ian,
Re NY do you still stand by their Cruise Terminal comparisons with Soton? The new Red Hook Terminal in Brooklyn was developed (from an old US Naval base) because the Manhatten facilities were so old, cramped and suffered horrendous traffic problems)
If ABP were so 'arrogant' about Dibden why did they spend 4 years and £50m on the enquiry? Doesn't smack to me of arrogance. Also to paraphrase the Inspectors final comments, ..'the decision was a tight call and on another day a different decision could have been made. This shows how close the decision was.
Re draught around Hythe. Again if you read the Dibden paperwork, and look at your map, you will find that the ABP proposal was specific to Dibden Bay and not the old RAF base at Hythe which is beyond Hythe Marina. Revenue from the propose container development would have underwritten the very expensive dredging of the Dibden foreshore to accommodate deep draughted vessels (and improve much needed road improvements to Marchwood By Pass).
ABP do not have access to the Hythe foreshore so someone else would have to fund the dredging to deepen the water here. Who would have deep pockets and expertise to do this?
Like it or not ABP is a business having to provide a return to their owners (most recently Pension funds) and have to follow the same commercial practices as you do in your business. You may well remember times between the 1960's &'1990's when the Port of Southampton (like many other UK ports) was riven by disputes and falling trade. By all accounts the Port of Southampton is posting record throughput year on year. Are you really telling me this is due to lack of foresight and vision? Interested to know what sort of business you are in.

Very defensive there James. I think the point Ian is saying is that let's face it, things could be done better couldn't they?

With hindsight everyone would have perfect vision. However if you look at the mess the Port was in during between the 1970's to 1990's (predominently under Govt control), regular disputes/loss of trades (eg Ferries to Portsmouth) and the record business being handled through the port now, I think Southampton Port is a success story. Well done to all those involved I say. If you look back thro the history of Soton since the commercial docks started in 1840, there has been noticeable increased growth and prosperity for the local population whenever the port has developed. (ie 1900/1930/1970) Problem is all successful businesses need to expand to maintain market share and Dibden now denied.
In many ports abroad, Le Havre is a prime example (and Portsmouth in the UK) there is either national or local funding to pay for port related capital and infrastructure projects (ie using your tax money) ABP have to pay for all their projects out of borrowings or profits as well as contributing considerable revenue to the Exchequer and providing a return for share holders. The galling thing for me is that revenue from local businesses goes into the Westminster coffers and is likely to end up distributed in Northern towns rather than on local projects.

Ian, James, excellent thread. Cheers.

Andy,
Glad you found the exchanges interesting. I am a proud Sotonian and try to be positive about the city/region whenever possible. The place is not perfect, by any means, but there are many more positives than negatives. I travel quite a bit and, believe,me I would rather live and do business here than most places. If there is going to be debate on matters of interest/concern let them, at least, be informed.

St. Ray wrote:

Ted wrote: Why don't they stick a cruise terminal at RAF Hythe? Brownfield site, etc and wouldn't take up room on an already heavily populated port. Or move the cruise terminals down to Portsmouth

The reason that cruise ships, of the size currently berthing in Southampton, can't use Portsmouth is that they are not able to enter the narrow harbour entrance. Incidently, when the new Royal Navy aircraft carriers come into service they will almost certainly be dry docking in Southampton as that is where the faciltiies are that are of a size to accommodate vessels of this size. Portsmouth really is a smalltime port with facilities to match

They almost certainly wont be dry docking in Southampton. Southampton no longer has a dry dock since the closure of the A&P facility

Yes, an interesting debate. There's definite merit in both sides of the argument. Sadly Southampton has been in decline over the last few years because of the way it's been mis-managed by the council though. Both the Port and City have had their ups and downs over the last few years and the failure of Dibden Bay was probably ABP's biggest failure overall.

Picking up on one of the points though, I'd like to know where and how they intend to put these extra cruise terminals and whether some of the businesses around the port will suffer? Will some of the smaller businesses suddenly find their rent increased substantially so that they get pushed out to make way for the more favourable cruise business?

First point. Has Soton been mismanaged?
I believe it is a much more vibrant place than when I was a kid and where we now have West Quay/Leisure World/Boat Show/Hotels etc etc previously there was Pirelli/Power Station and scrub land.
Second Point .Personally I can't see more cruise terminals being built for the forseeable future. It would make more sense for the port & Cruise lines to maximise utilisation of cruise terminals on weekdays rather than concentrate ship calls at weekends (altho this may not suit passenger's holiday arrangements)
However ABP is a business and it makes commercial sense to offer up any available space (altho ABP would have to abide by any existing contractual arrangements)to the customer who provides the best return.
Looking at cruise from a more general perspective, it arguably gives more back to the local economy than other port related trade but I am willing to be guided on this.
Certainly the cruise ships provide more profile to the city and there are intangible benefits to consider in this respect.

First point. Has Soton been mismanaged?
I believe it is a much more vibrant place than when I was a kid and where we now have West Quay/Leisure World/Boat Show/Hotels etc etc previously there was Pirelli/Power Station and scrub land.
Second Point .Personally I can't see more cruise terminals being built for the forseeable future. It would make more sense for the port & Cruise lines to maximise utilisation of cruise terminals on weekdays rather than concentrate ship calls at weekends (altho this may not suit passenger's holiday arrangements)
However ABP is a business and it makes commercial sense to offer up any available space (altho ABP would have to abide by any existing contractual arrangements)to the customer who provides the best return.
Looking at cruise from a more general perspective, it arguably gives more back to the local economy than other port related trade but I am willing to be guided on this.
Certainly the cruise ships provide more profile to the city and there are intangible benefits to consider in this respect.

james wrote:
First point. Has Soton been mismanaged? I believe it is a much more vibrant place than when I was a kid and where we now have West Quay/Leisure World/Boat Show/Hotels etc etc previously there was Pirelli/Power Station and scrub land. Second Point .Personally I can\'t see more cruise terminals being built for the forseeable future. It would make more sense for the port & Cruise lines to maximise utilisation of cruise terminals on weekdays rather than concentrate ship calls at weekends (altho this may not suit passenger\'s holiday arrangements) However ABP is a business and it makes commercial sense to offer up any available space (altho ABP would have to abide by any existing contractual arrangements)to the customer who provides the best return. Looking at cruise from a more general perspective, it arguably gives more back to the local economy than other port related trade but I am willing to be guided on this. Certainly the cruise ships provide more profile to the city and there are intangible benefits to consider in this respect.

James,

You are obviously an ABP employee so can you tell which berths are being lined up as future cruise terminals and also which of those businesses that would be affected?

Ian,

I am not an ABP employee but have an interest in the Port and the City. As I said above my personal view is the extra terminals are unlikely to be built, at least in the forseeable future, so how can I guess the location.
Presume your business is in the port and you are concerned about a possible rent increase?.

just nock all docks down and re bild so we can get close to the boats as at the mo is a sh1t hole posmouth looks beeter then southampton so thets bet them and make southampton a loveley place if u cant do that then bluild us a ice rink better than gosport

Re latest post.Can't make up my mind if there are really people about who are so educationally challenged or if this is someone posting for a laugh.

i just think its great news for southampton. getting the money into the city is never bad and it can help to do better things. we might aswell live is a city know for is great ports and wonderful ships and just deal with the traffic. we do already dont we??? the marchwood bypass is a pile of Cr*p and has no flow. does anyone do anything about it? no. im sure they will find a way.