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‘Let’s buy the land and kill off ABP plans’

4:36am Thursday 7th August 2008

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Photograph of the Author By Julian Robinson »

COUNCIL chiefs are being urged to buy a stretch of New Forest coastline to safeguard it from a massive dock development.

Controversial plans by Associated British Ports (ABP) to build a new container terminal at Dibden Bay appeared to be dead in the water following a Government decision four years ago.

However, the Daily Echo last week revealed how port bosses still harboured hopes of developing the reclaimed land.

Now Hampshire County Council is being asked to consider joining forces with other authorities tomake a bid for the heavily protected site.

Cllr David Harrison, whose ward covers the area, believes that ABP would listen to a suitable offer. He claimed that the area had "massive potential" as public open space and that the cost of buying it would eventually be recouped via parking and access fees.

He said: "The best way to see off this threat is for the county council to purchase this important site.

"If the county councilmakes a reasonable offer, possibly in partnership with other local authorities, then shareholders of Associated British Ports would have to consider selling."

The £600m scheme was rejected following a 13-month public inquiry four years ago, but the issue surfaced again last week at the Port City Futures conference attended by marine minister Jonathon Shaw.

Port director Doug Morrison received a rapturous round of applause after revealing that ABP still wanted to forge ahead with the scheme.

Some countryside campaigners have dismissed the comments, while others fear that a proposed shake-up in planning laws could make it easier for such projects to take place.

A spokesman for ABP said that the company had "absolutely no plans" to reapply for permission to develop Dibden Bay but admitted that managers were keeping their options open.

He was unable to comment on Cllr Harrison's proposal that the county council should purchase the land.

He said: "We need to safeguard the land in case we ever want to proceed with any future developments."

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Your Say YourEcho

Captain Sensible, Southampton says...
6:11am Thu 7 Aug 08

A good use of stretched resources ?

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PAUL B, says...
6:45am Thu 7 Aug 08

USUAL NIMBY NONSENSE, BEHIND A CAUSE UNTIL THEY HAVE TO PUT THEIR HANDS IN THEIR POCKETS

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Cllr Chris Lagdon, Totton New Forest says...
7:17am Thu 7 Aug 08

Excellent idea from that well known band wagon jumper Harrison , why dont we buy the B.A.T ground at Totton as well and put up the council tax even more.. It must be close to the Hampshire elections !!!!

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Private Pike, In the realms of fantasy says...
7:47am Thu 7 Aug 08

Fantasy. Is this Lib Dem policy on the County Council?

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Great Idea!, says...
7:53am Thu 7 Aug 08

I think it's a good idea... BUT... the money to buy the land should only come from those people who are dead against the development of Didben Bay into a container port

Let's see if they are willing to put their money where their mouth is eh?

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Andy, Locks Heath says...
7:59am Thu 7 Aug 08

So that's why you were elected Cllr Harrison, to turn away investment, destroy future employment prospects for school leavers, and jeopardise the local economy. And your your alternative "plan" for Dibden Bay is? to pour scorn on enterprise and instead do nothing at all with it. Yes that about sums up your calibre really.

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Build It, New Forest says...
8:02am Thu 7 Aug 08

Dam you do gooders, the land is there for future dock expansion and always has been. You all want your goods in the shops 24hrs a day, and to pay cheap prices for them. All these containers have to come in somewhere. Get a life and move on with the times, and that goes for all them complaining about truck movements in Marchwood. No trucks, no goods in the shops.

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Marchwood Boy, says...
8:15am Thu 7 Aug 08

"Cllr David Harrison, whose ward covers the area, believes that ABP would listen to a suitable offer. He claimed that the area had "massive potential" as public open space and that the cost of buying it would eventually be recouped via parking and access fees"


Eventually be recouped via parking fees? Yeah, after about 75 years! In the meantime, it would be taxpayers money buying the land and taxpayers money for the upkeep of it. As a local taxpayer who was always in favour of the ABP plans, I strongly object to my council tax being used for one councillors fantasy.

Now that I'm aware of Mr Harrison (strange as a Marchwood resident that I've never heard of him before) I will vote against him at the next polls.

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Saint Ash, Redbridge says...
8:19am Thu 7 Aug 08

And of course ABP are going to sell prime waterfront land at a price the local Council will be able to afford!
Just how much money does The New Forest DC have in it's coffers then, as I'm sure there are local services that could use the money in far better ways.What a stupid comment from an ellected offical.

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Andrew, Totton says...
8:36am Thu 7 Aug 08

What a daft idea , this shows Cllr David Harrison to be a bit silly really. If he is so sure it will make the money back and be viable why doesnt he just approach the bank himself for a loan to buy the land himself, as banks back good ideas which make money......
If this idea is not viable which is very obvious the bank would not back him.
This just reads as a very uneducated off the cuff comment by someone with no commercail knowledge or care about tax payers. money.
Does he think he could just nick the land of ABP ?
Are ABP really that stupid that they would even think about selling the land?
If he has thought it through so much can we have the figure he will be offering please?

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Ted, Southampton says...
9:00am Thu 7 Aug 08

Take a leaf out of Friends of the Earth from the 60's. Buy a plot of land surrounding it and then resell the land to thousands of people in 1 metre chunks. Makes purchasing the land back a nightmare.

As for the laughable excuse of thinking about the importing of white goods etc, that's what Shellhaven is for. Dibden isn't for national interests, it's so ABP can create a new dock so they can sell off prime land in the current docks. Look at their other ports and you'll see what I mean.

Where do I sign up for my plot of land?

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Marchwood Boy, says...
9:02am Thu 7 Aug 08

Ted, what prime land in the docks is this then?

How much money will they get for the sale of this prime land? How will that compare to the ongoing profits they earn from using this prime land as a Container Port?

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Harsh, but True says...
10:00am Thu 7 Aug 08

There is your foot Councillor Harrison. Now take aim, Fire!

Sometimes people should learn when to keep their mouths shut. This will only make ABP stick their heels in even more.

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Utter smack tards, Southampton says...
10:23am Thu 7 Aug 08

So we have Ford closing down, BAT gone, other business's going to the wall, a total lack of investment in the area and other building projects being stalled... let me get this right, Asociated Ports want to expand their buisness here and make a substantial invetsment into the local economy and people are against it????

Wjere does the council think it's taxes will come from when half their ward are unemployed???


Jobs at Ikea and MCdonalds are hardly going to grow this city are they??????

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northy, baddesley says...
10:24am Thu 7 Aug 08

Ted wrote:
Take a leaf out of Friends of the Earth from the 60's. Buy a plot of land surrounding it and then resell the land to thousands of people in 1 metre chunks. Makes purchasing the land back a nightmare. As for the laughable excuse of thinking about the importing of white goods etc, that's what Shellhaven is for. Dibden isn't for national interests, it's so ABP can create a new dock so they can sell off prime land in the current docks. Look at their other ports and you'll see what I mean. Where do I sign up for my plot of land?
This spurious argument that ABP will sell off land in the existing port area IF Dibden Bay (and it is a big if)is developed is compromised by the fact that the Cruise Terminals/Container Terminal/Bulk terminal/Fruit Terminal et al are signed up to long term agreements.
ABP are now owned by Pension funds. These pension funds are more concerned about getting a regular return from their investment than satisfying the more immediate demands of the share market as was the case when ABP was a publically listed company.

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Ted, Southampton says...
10:32am Thu 7 Aug 08

northy wrote:
Ted wrote: Take a leaf out of Friends of the Earth from the 60's. Buy a plot of land surrounding it and then resell the land to thousands of people in 1 metre chunks. Makes purchasing the land back a nightmare. As for the laughable excuse of thinking about the importing of white goods etc, that's what Shellhaven is for. Dibden isn't for national interests, it's so ABP can create a new dock so they can sell off prime land in the current docks. Look at their other ports and you'll see what I mean. Where do I sign up for my plot of land?
This spurious argument that ABP will sell off land in the existing port area IF Dibden Bay (and it is a big if)is developed is compromised by the fact that the Cruise Terminals/Container Terminal/Bulk terminal/Fruit Terminal et al are signed up to long term agreements. ABP are now owned by Pension funds. These pension funds are more concerned about getting a regular return from their investment than satisfying the more immediate demands of the share market as was the case when ABP was a publically listed company.
Spurious? I work there...

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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
12:02pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ABP will bide their time until the Shellhaven terminal is at full capacity (initial estimates suggest 7-8 years) and then Dibden Bay will be very much back on the agenda with a much greater chance of success.

Those who argued in the past that full use was not being made of existing port land for shipping purposes had a fair argument in my view, however Bacardi, STC Communications, Royal Mail all the big land users are now gone and all this land is now being used for container storage or other port related purposes so this argument is now null & void!

Dibden Bay as a port facility will happen it's a case of when not if!!!


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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
12:09pm Thu 7 Aug 08

I should have added that as a result of my comments above I would be gobsmacked if ABP will consider selling the Dibden Bay land at any price!

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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
12:18pm Thu 7 Aug 08

I should also add that although I work for ABP I am not a company spokesman!!!

All my comments are educated guesswork based on what I would do if I was part of the management!!

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THE BRICK, says...
1:21pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Good place to build an ice rink

GIVE US WHAT WE WANT, AND THEN WE'LL GO AWAY

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northy, north baddesley says...
1:28pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ABP Employee wrote:
ABP will bide their time until the Shellhaven terminal is at full capacity (initial estimates suggest 7-8 years) and then Dibden Bay will be very much back on the agenda with a much greater chance of success. Those who argued in the past that full use was not being made of existing port land for shipping purposes had a fair argument in my view, however Bacardi, STC Communications, Royal Mail all the big land users are now gone and all this land is now being used for container storage or other port related purposes so this argument is now null & void! Dibden Bay as a port facility will happen it's a case of when not if!!!
The reason that Bacardi/STC/Royal Mail/A&P are now gone is that their leases ended so ABP have been able to use the land for cargo related activity. This suits their purpose much better.
Southampton is an extremely well place port for trade so there will always likely be interest from ship owners

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southy, redbridge says...
1:35pm Thu 7 Aug 08

lol i find this funny,it could be just what ABP wants,has the land can be class has farm land with business intrest,they can ask more than the market value.look what ABP done to date sold up there intrest in the container port,and use it for the thames prodject,they know container ships will get much bigger.this might be the real reason why all the rumours just of late.they want to sell the land but they need to be able to dictate the price of the land.
andy remember what i said in a post a mth or so ago.

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wild bill, millbrook hous est says...
1:36pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Looks like NFC has walk right into that one.

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Soton Realist, Southampton says...
1:37pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ABP want to expand to allow their business to grow. Does it really make long term sense to then sell of their existing terminal only to be restricted in capacity further down the road?? Doesn't matter if it's in Southampton or anywhere else in the country, new ports and airports will need to be built to keep up with demand and a growing economy. That's just life, deal with it!

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echo reader, says...
1:42pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Big Business
v
David (Harisson )

No contest.

Goliath wins this time around.

Scratching his head in puzzlement, and pondering why the Locals voted him out of office, Little, Looney, Loser, David watches a spanking new port take shape in his back garden.


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southy, redbridge says...
1:45pm Thu 7 Aug 08

i said a while back that ABP wants to expand, just it not going to be southampton,they are putting all the container money in to the container project on the thames,
theres lots of things you got to remember and the main one s is southampton docks only has southampton bough rights and entrence chennel,out side them lines they have no power.

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Alan Richards, Doha Qatar says...
1:58pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Dibden Bay, by its very name tells you that this was once part of the sea. This land was reclaimed to be used for future Dockland, many many years before most of the Nimbys along the Waterside moved there. Their grevances should be with whichever lawyer carried out the survey on their new property, for not pointing out that this land was always designated for Dock developement, and will surely be so shortly. They have only themselves to blame, for not doing their homework

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the vengeful cabbage, says...
2:02pm Thu 7 Aug 08

May prove difficult if the local branch of the retards society for the protection of birds decide to hold a protest. That could put a real spanner in the works, still we could allways put some lovely flats and an ice rink on the land.

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Bill, Itchen says...
2:06pm Thu 7 Aug 08

southy is very keen on the idea that ABP are going to abandon soton for the thames, but there operation there is only a threeway split (I thnk between them, DP and forth). no wonder they want to develop a site for themselves not just to share with competiors.

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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
2:39pm Thu 7 Aug 08

I see a couple of people have commented that ABP have sold their share in the container teminal which is incorrect!

D.P World Southampton is a joint venture company between Dubai Ports and ABP with D.P World holding the majority stake at 51% and ABP 49%.

This is the same share that ABP have held in the container terminal since the days that the docks were privatised, so nothing has changed and if Dibden Bay is ever developed then this would almost certainly be done in conjunction with D.P World on the same partnership basis.

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southy, redbridge says...
2:42pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ABP will not total abandon southampton they hold the key to passenger ships.has long they dont get much bigger than they are now,another key factor theres is no bough rights on the river thames like there is here in southampton,and when you see how much room there is on the thames ,they could expand 10 times more than they could in southampton, then there how deep the water is its deeper naturely and the channel is wider and straight.

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southy, redbridge says...
2:54pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ABP Employee i dont know alot about shares,but am i right in thinking that if one group holds more than 50% they can put in to buy the rest.
more than likely abp holding on to there 49% just for the lease on the land.

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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
3:02pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Southy the arrangement suits ABP down to the ground.

They take 49% of whatever profit the container terminal makes without having to operate the terminal and they still ultimately own the land so D.P World cannot actually do anything substantial without ABP's agreement, win win for ABP the paper shareholding is more or less irrelevant!

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southy, redbridge says...
3:10pm Thu 7 Aug 08

yes but like i said can dp put in a bid for the rest of the share if they want to.

the freehold land is own by 4 familys and the waterboard.i know this because my family is one of the freeholders.

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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
3:15pm Thu 7 Aug 08

That being the case I assume the leasehold is in the name of ABP not D.P World in which case same result.

Pretty sure you will also find under company law that a company can only compulsorily bid for 100% of the shares, where they have a 75% or greater stockholding not the case here!

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Detective Columbo, Pumpfield Farm Precinct says...
3:17pm Thu 7 Aug 08

There's just one thing I don't understand Councillor. You said you objected to the port because of the additional traffic, yet in your business case you reckon to recoup to purchase cost by "parking fees". So how many thousands of cars do you see in your business plan councillor? How are you going to manage it without increasing local traffic councillor? Is that why you're only a 2 bit politician and not a real businessman councillor?

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southy, redbridge says...
3:23pm Thu 7 Aug 08

thats was i wanted to know ABP Employee, like i said i dont know alot about shares only what i see in the papers

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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
3:35pm Thu 7 Aug 08

No worries southy, anyway to be honest sounds like we're singing from the same hymsheet, i'm surprised the nimby crew have'nt been on here spouting their usual propaganda!

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southy, redbridge says...
3:44pm Thu 7 Aug 08

wait for it they be here soon lol.

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ABP Employee, Southeampton says...
3:49pm Thu 7 Aug 08

True enough Southy I expect all the Hythe marina nimby's have either been out on their yachts for the day, or up in London earning their fat city salaries, wait until they're back home and see all this somebody will have a heart attack lol!

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southy, redbridge says...
3:54pm Thu 7 Aug 08

boy i wish some of the would,when they are out on that river sailing they are a menice, have no regaurds for other river users, like the time when i was working the sea horse.

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clair, Soton says...
3:58pm Thu 7 Aug 08

It does not matter what will happen in the future - we the British will recoup everything that WAS ours. Build and we will reap and benefit eventually - we are not daft.

clair

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Doozer, Totton says...
4:17pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Come on ye nimbys, its about time that the area had a good shot in the arm, investment is what is called for to allow us all to prosper.
We are and always have been an Island nation, that makes it money through trade. So surely the right thing to do is invest in your children and their childrens future.

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southy, redbridge says...
4:33pm Thu 7 Aug 08

doozer its more of a case if you build on it make sure its the right type of building,in this case more docks may not be the answer,maybe a factory of some sort to export stuff out

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Finnbar Saunders, Viz Mag UK says...
4:37pm Thu 7 Aug 08

southy wrote:
boy i wish some of the would,when they are out on that river sailing they are a menice, have no regaurds for other river users, like the time when i was working the sea horse.
..working the seahorse?..fnarr fnarr

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Ed, Southampton says...
5:01pm Thu 7 Aug 08

I have no objections on the building of Dibden Bay if ABP could categorically say that it would not be at the expense of selling off existing port owned land for redevlopment within a 30-40 year period. Can they swear to the people of Southampton and the local areas that they are not planning on building a new port at the expense of a quick buck elsewhere.

Once they prove this then they have my vote but at the moment I'm believing the rumours.

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ABP Employee, Sluthampton says...
5:25pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Well Ed all the available port land is currently in use and the only known requirement for the forseeable future is for expansion requiring the use of Dibden Bay.

In 30-40 years who knows what the situation will be everything might be transported by air although I could hardly see that you're being a tad unrealistic methinks!

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Ed, Southampton says...
5:29pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ABP Employee wrote:
Well Ed all the available port land is currently in use and the only known requirement for the forseeable future is for expansion requiring the use of Dibden Bay. In 30-40 years who knows what the situation will be everything might be transported by air although I could hardly see that you're being a tad unrealistic methinks!
ABP Employee - if you are a real employee then if you worked for me I'd question the amount of time you spend on the internet during the working day rather than getting on with your primary job..which is what exactly..? You sound like a monkey and not an organ grinder. Given the blarney ABP spout about the long term national interest (coveniently forgetting Shellhaven), I don't think it is a tad unrealistic to have someone categorically say that they won't sell off land once Dibden is up and running. Now run along a get one of the grown ups!

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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
5:37pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Ed you sound like the usual nimby idiot who can't come up with a coherent argument to support your case, read the previous posts plenty of discussion including Shellhaven at length, back to your yacht for a G&T jolly hockeysticks lol!

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southy, redbridge says...
5:40pm Thu 7 Aug 08

lol told ya they come out of the wood work sooner or later,they been busy on the helipad posting

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Ed, Southampton says...
5:45pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ABP Employee, I'm not a NIMBY, I would like to see Dibden Bay made for genuine reasons but don't see ABP making any comment on their long term plans or categorically saying that they won't sell off land for redevelopment. If they did, then they have my vote.

Seeing as Ocean Gate knock off at about 4.30 you must be VTS then and therefore not really in the know.

I think ABP would get more support if someone much higher than Doug Morrison such as Chris Clark or Peter Jones said outright that they were not selling off port estate once Dibden went up. Unless again you are Doug Morrison and if so, why not make a public statement and at the same time a lot of friends?

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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
5:46pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Too true southy any ideas what you'll be doing in 40 years time??

Yeah wish I had a crystal ball lol!!

Some people are unbelievable!

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Ed, Southampton says...
5:48pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ABP Employee wrote:
Too true southy any ideas what you'll be doing in 40 years time?? Yeah wish I had a crystal ball lol!! Some people are unbelievable!
If this is true why are ABP saying that Dibden is for the long term benefit of the UK. If you can't see the reasoning on this then you're probably not in the know and a poor representative of your company.

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Simmo, Southampton says...
5:50pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Hahaha, Ed has just pwned ABP Employee!

Get in there big fella!!

LMAFO

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southy, redbridge says...
5:51pm Thu 7 Aug 08

well in about 40 years time i would say there be no container port in southampton,there be just 2 main ones one on the east coast and one on the west coast.containers that are not for the uk will be run from one coast to the other side.

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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
5:52pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Well Ed whatever biz is it is of yours am holiday at the mo sorry to disappoint.

Frankly, it is ABP's business what they do with their land within the constraints placed on them by legislation.

If it was your business and somebody came along demanding guarantees of what you were going to do in 40 years time you would have one answer and one answer only and that is you are not in a position to give such guarantees!!

Get a reality check!!!

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debit the left side, at my calculator says...
5:54pm Thu 7 Aug 08

I used to work as an external auditor for ABP. Can categorically say that I never saw any evidence of ABP wanting to sell Port Land in the 10 yrs I was doing the job. They make far more money by maximsing revenue from existing port facilities. And they do the job very well. The sale of Ocean Village in the 1980's was somewhat of a red herring. At that time the port was striven by industrial disputes and was losing money big style. ABP had just taken over from the old nationalised BTDB and the sale of land for non port related activity (eg marinas) was considered the only way to make money especially as the Ocean Village area had shallow berths and ships were getting bigger. In fact there were plans to extend non port activity into Empress Dock and 101/2 berths. With the benefit of hindsight ABP made the big mistake of selling off a corner of Dibden Bay for the creation of Hythe Marina. Maggie Thatchers reform of the Dock Labour Act transformed UK ports thereby enabling the old NDLB ports to
actually provide a service and make money. Since then all the major UK ports, especially Soton, have beeen able to compete successfully by offering good sevice and strike free records.
Consider that any development at Dibden Bay will cost between £500m to £1b so this will be a significant leap of faith by ABP owners.
I have to say that, in todays economic climate, any investment of this magnitude would be welcomed with open arms in most areas of the country. It seems surprising to me that some people in this area are not even prepared to enter into a reasonable dialogue to consider the possible benefits.Very strange!!

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southy, redbridge says...
6:03pm Thu 7 Aug 08

debit the left side, at my calculator intresting but you for got some thing else to,the selling off the lease to town quay,and where carryfast sheds use to be and that part of the dock wall.and the new owners blocking the right of way to the public slipway and public hard.the public hard has totaly gone its now a marina.and this happen in the early to mid 90's

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Ed, Southampton says...
6:06pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ABP Employee wrote:
Well Ed whatever biz is it is of yours am holiday at the mo sorry to disappoint. Frankly, it is ABP's business what they do with their land within the constraints placed on them by legislation. If it was your business and somebody came along demanding guarantees of what you were going to do in 40 years time you would have one answer and one answer only and that is you are not in a position to give such guarantees!! Get a reality check!!!
Well that narrows it down as to who you are and it is obvious you're not a management postion high enough to know the full intentions behind Dibden Bay. Ignore the issue of 40 years etc, I still want proof that there is no long term aim to sell off port estate for redevelopment after Dibden is built.

As an ABP employee you must have seen how other ports have shrunk. Look at Cardiff and Ipswich, they are more marinas and expensive flats than ports industry now. Good job there ABP.

Lets see some proof from the ABP board and not some spouting from someone not in a position to back up that proof such as you. I'm sure you do an important job in the docks but you're not in the right job to know absolutely everything. Like I said previously, I'm happy to see Dibden built if their intentions are clear and honest.

As for the auditor, the clue is in your first sentence, 'I use to work..'

Come on Doug, reassure the inhabitants of Southampton and make perfectly clear that not one cubic metre of port estate would be sold off once Dibden was built!

Daily Echo, why don't you ask him or the board of ABP???

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southy, redbridge says...
6:13pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ed m8 if you read the posts that have gone before and not just this post,you might get an idea what abp is up to.

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Ed, Southampton says...
6:16pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Southy,

You seem like a man in the know with a good knowledge of the history of the docks. Do you think they'll end up selling land off in the docks at the expense of Dibden?

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southy, redbridge says...
6:23pm Thu 7 Aug 08

i going to refer you to my fist post of the day and another one by wild bill.
i said "lol i find this funny,it could be just what ABP wants,has the land can be class has farm land with business intrest,they can ask more than the market value.look what ABP done to date sold up there intrest in the container port,and use it for the thames prodject,they know container ships will get much bigger.this might be the real reason why all the rumours just of late.they want to sell the land but they need to be able to dictate the price of the land.
andy remember what i said in a post a mth or so ago.

then wild bill said "Looks like NFC has walk right into that one."
this might answer your question

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Dog, Southampton says...
6:23pm Thu 7 Aug 08

Yep, you got me, we'll sell off Eastern docks to make more flats that go all the way around to Mayflower Park. Then we'll sell off the area at SCT and move them over to DB.

...and I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids and that big dog...

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ABP Employee, Southampton says...
6:23pm Thu 7 Aug 08

ABP Emp