Hampshire's Police Commissioner vote branded a shambles amid low voter turnout

Portswood Library in Southampton was being used as a polling station, but turnout was low

Portswood Library in Southampton was being used as a polling station, but turnout was low

First published in News Daily Echo: Photograph of the Author by , Education Reporter

IT should have been the chance for Hampshire residents to have a real say over how their communities are policed.

But instead the process of electing a Police and Crime Commissioner for the county has been branded “a shambles” and a “bad day for democracy” – and that comes from the people who were vying for the job.

The results of the vote were due to be announced today in Southampton when the candidates will find out who will command a salary of £85,000 and oversee a budget of £305m.

But they will face immediate criticism over the strength of their mandate, after figures indicated that just 15 per cent of people in Southampton bothered to vote.

Labour candidate Cllr Jacqui Rayment spent the day touring polling stations in Southampton and said the turnout was worse than expected.

She said: “I have complained to the Home Office about how many people in Hampshire did not receive the booklet of information about the election, but here we are now on polling day and that information hasn’t even been posted.

I think the way the election has been handled has given democracy a bad name.”

During a visit to a polling station in Romsey, UKIP representative Stephen West described it as “the same old story” as disillusioned voters blamed a lack of information. “This is looking like a shambles,” he said.

Mr West later tweeted how a visit to Totton had seen only a 3.5 per cent turnout by mid afternoon.

Liberal Democrat candidate David Goodall agreed a lack of publicity was to blame but said any mandate would have to be earned by the winner.

The Electoral Commission was last night predicting the turnout would be the worst in British election history.

A lack of publicity, combined with a change of voting system and the timing was being blamed.

Gerry Stoker, professor of political science at Southampton University, said the lack of voters reflected a general disillusionment with politics and warned the successful candidate would find their position weakened as a result.

He added the timing of the election, outside the normal cycle of May elections, would have also played a part.

A Home Office spokesman said: “Any turnout will confer a better democratic mandate than the current invisible police authorities have.”

Also running for the job are independent candidate Simon Hayes, Conservative Michael Mates and Justice and Anti-Corruption Party candidate Don Gerrard.

A trickle of voters

POLLING stations across Hampshire and the Isle of Wight reported that only a trickle of voters had come through the doors with no one casting their votes at all for hours at a time.

Voters stayed away from the Masonic Hall in Leigh Road, Eastleigh, during the day – with not a single person seen.

Across Southampton voting had been in “fits and starts”.

Staff manning the voting booths said it had been a quiet day, with nothing like the turnout of a General Election.

Pensioner Thomas Herd, 79, said: “I think people are likely just to vote on political parties in the absence of any actual information about the candidates themselves.”

Voting was slow across Winchester and in the New Forest. By mid-morning only 33 people had cast their votes at a Lymington town centre polling station.

Comments (68)

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9:53am Fri 16 Nov 12

Linesman says...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

The system in place was working well, and this exercise, that has cost many thousands of pounds, should not have been a government priority at a time when it is making massive cut-backs that includes police funding.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it! The system in place was working well, and this exercise, that has cost many thousands of pounds, should not have been a government priority at a time when it is making massive cut-backs that includes police funding. Linesman
  • Score: 0

9:53am Fri 16 Nov 12

Ozmosis says...

"Voters stayed away from the Masonic Hall in Leigh Road, Eastleigh, during the day – with not a single person seen".... because of the police vote or didn't they want to be seen in there in case people thought they were "one of them"? ;-)
"Voters stayed away from the Masonic Hall in Leigh Road, Eastleigh, during the day – with not a single person seen".... because of the police vote or didn't they want to be seen in there in case people thought they were "one of them"? ;-) Ozmosis
  • Score: 0

10:00am Fri 16 Nov 12

The Watcher says...

An absolute shambles, a folly, a complete and utter farce and heads should roll at CCHQ.
.
Not needed and obviously not wanted.
.
When an election gets a lower turnout than those for the undemocratic EU, then you know you are in trouble.
.
Plus of course it's a huge own goal scored against those of us who challenge undemocratic union votes. .
.
We can no longer challenge a union for not having a sufficient mandate when Cameron's flagship policy is implemented with even less support.
.
A complete and utter farce.
An absolute shambles, a folly, a complete and utter farce and heads should roll at CCHQ. . Not needed and obviously not wanted. . When an election gets a lower turnout than those for the undemocratic EU, then you know you are in trouble. . Plus of course it's a huge own goal scored against those of us who challenge undemocratic union votes. . . We can no longer challenge a union for not having a sufficient mandate when Cameron's flagship policy is implemented with even less support. . A complete and utter farce. The Watcher
  • Score: 0

10:00am Fri 16 Nov 12

eurogordi says...

Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat. eurogordi
  • Score: 0

10:03am Fri 16 Nov 12

Dave of Dibden says...

Ozmosis wrote:
"Voters stayed away from the Masonic Hall in Leigh Road, Eastleigh, during the day – with not a single person seen".... because of the police vote or didn't they want to be seen in there in case people thought they were "one of them"? ;-)
What is "One of Them"
[quote][p][bold]Ozmosis[/bold] wrote: "Voters stayed away from the Masonic Hall in Leigh Road, Eastleigh, during the day – with not a single person seen".... because of the police vote or didn't they want to be seen in there in case people thought they were "one of them"? ;-)[/p][/quote]What is "One of Them" Dave of Dibden
  • Score: 0

10:07am Fri 16 Nov 12

Independent Thought says...

Omnishambles - meaning a situation which is shambolic from every possible angle.

Sort of really sums up this costly farce!
Omnishambles - meaning a situation which is shambolic from every possible angle. Sort of really sums up this costly farce! Independent Thought
  • Score: 0

10:08am Fri 16 Nov 12

News Fanatic says...

It is ironic that the government has been making many hundreds of police officers redundant nationwide to save money. Yet they were foolish enough to spend £75m on this totally unneccessary election. What we want is more police officers, not another election.
Surely it would have been cheaper to have combined it with the May local government polls.
It is ironic that the government has been making many hundreds of police officers redundant nationwide to save money. Yet they were foolish enough to spend £75m on this totally unneccessary election. What we want is more police officers, not another election. Surely it would have been cheaper to have combined it with the May local government polls. News Fanatic
  • Score: 0

10:08am Fri 16 Nov 12

SotonGreen says...

When I went to vote, I had to wait as the election officials were in the middle of amusing themselves by playing the piano (The polling station was in Archers road school hall).

Clearly a very slow day for them !
When I went to vote, I had to wait as the election officials were in the middle of amusing themselves by playing the piano (The polling station was in Archers road school hall). Clearly a very slow day for them ! SotonGreen
  • Score: 0

10:15am Fri 16 Nov 12

peenut81 says...

The complaints about lack of information reveal the truth about Democracy in the Uk.
People are not willing to be pro active with their duties as citizens.
A google search of 'police elections and candidates' bought up a bio of all candidates and their policies. Easier than setting up an account on a newspaper forum.
My thoughts are, that the British like being led. That way they can blame others for their misfortune and avoid responsibility of the very hard choices of leadership necessary in the 21st century.
That and as Mr Stoker (a very astute man) pointed out, those that used to care are too disillusioned by the corruption.
The complaints about lack of information reveal the truth about Democracy in the Uk. People are not willing to be pro active with their duties as citizens. A google search of 'police elections and candidates' bought up a bio of all candidates and their policies. Easier than setting up an account on a newspaper forum. My thoughts are, that the British like being led. That way they can blame others for their misfortune and avoid responsibility of the very hard choices of leadership necessary in the 21st century. That and as Mr Stoker (a very astute man) pointed out, those that used to care are too disillusioned by the corruption. peenut81
  • Score: 0

10:16am Fri 16 Nov 12

one in a million says...

There needs to be a minimum quorum for all elections.

The arrogance of the political cast needs addressing; how can we possibly vote for anyone who thinks just because the have a party affiliation they automatically should get a vote is beyond me?!

Must be NIMBYS.
There needs to be a minimum quorum for all elections. The arrogance of the political cast needs addressing; how can we possibly vote for anyone who thinks just because the have a party affiliation they automatically should get a vote is beyond me?! Must be NIMBYS. one in a million
  • Score: 0

10:19am Fri 16 Nov 12

sburman says...

Splenid result in my opinion, this election should never of happened. To place a politician in charge of the police is a stupid American Idea and is totally wrong.

For right or wrong the head of our Police should not be swayed bny political agendas or popular opinion but by the law of the land.

Next we will be having elected leaders for army Regiments, Naval Ships & Air Force Squadrens
Splenid result in my opinion, this election should never of happened. To place a politician in charge of the police is a stupid American Idea and is totally wrong. For right or wrong the head of our Police should not be swayed bny political agendas or popular opinion but by the law of the land. Next we will be having elected leaders for army Regiments, Naval Ships & Air Force Squadrens sburman
  • Score: 0

10:21am Fri 16 Nov 12

Shoong says...

Pure folly, waste of time and resources, end of.
Pure folly, waste of time and resources, end of. Shoong
  • Score: 0

10:27am Fri 16 Nov 12

Linesman says...

Shoong wrote:
Pure folly, waste of time and resources, end of.
So you think that Dodgy Dave and Naughty Nick got it wrong?
[quote][p][bold]Shoong[/bold] wrote: Pure folly, waste of time and resources, end of.[/p][/quote]So you think that Dodgy Dave and Naughty Nick got it wrong? Linesman
  • Score: 0

10:28am Fri 16 Nov 12

Linesman says...

It is now 10:30 and loosehead has not appeared to defend his Tory leader for inflicting this massive waste of time and money on us.
It is now 10:30 and loosehead has not appeared to defend his Tory leader for inflicting this massive waste of time and money on us. Linesman
  • Score: 0

10:29am Fri 16 Nov 12

Linesman says...

Linesman wrote:
It is now 10:30 and loosehead has not appeared to defend his Tory leader for inflicting this massive waste of time and money on us.
Whoops! My watch is 2 minutes fast.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: It is now 10:30 and loosehead has not appeared to defend his Tory leader for inflicting this massive waste of time and money on us.[/p][/quote]Whoops! My watch is 2 minutes fast. Linesman
  • Score: 0

10:30am Fri 16 Nov 12

Forest Resident says...

This effective "No" vote for Police Commissioners is excellent news and one in the eye for Theresa May and her cronies. The Tories themselves demand and indeed legislate that trade union ballots have a certain % turnout or the result is null and void, by their own logic therefore the same should apply in the case of Police Commissioners. Policing is what keeps society safe, it is too precious to be politically meddled and experimented with in this way. Whoever becomes Hampshire PCC today has absolutely no mandate to do so and should immediately resign or it will be plainly apparent they are clearly there for their own ends and are not the "voice of the people" they are supposed to be!
This effective "No" vote for Police Commissioners is excellent news and one in the eye for Theresa May and her cronies. The Tories themselves demand and indeed legislate that trade union ballots have a certain % turnout or the result is null and void, by their own logic therefore the same should apply in the case of Police Commissioners. Policing is what keeps society safe, it is too precious to be politically meddled and experimented with in this way. Whoever becomes Hampshire PCC today has absolutely no mandate to do so and should immediately resign or it will be plainly apparent they are clearly there for their own ends and are not the "voice of the people" they are supposed to be! Forest Resident
  • Score: 0

10:31am Fri 16 Nov 12

Linesman says...

one in a million wrote:
There needs to be a minimum quorum for all elections.

The arrogance of the political cast needs addressing; how can we possibly vote for anyone who thinks just because the have a party affiliation they automatically should get a vote is beyond me?!

Must be NIMBYS.
As NIMBY stands for Not In My Back Yard, I fail to see the connection.
[quote][p][bold]one in a million[/bold] wrote: There needs to be a minimum quorum for all elections. The arrogance of the political cast needs addressing; how can we possibly vote for anyone who thinks just because the have a party affiliation they automatically should get a vote is beyond me?! Must be NIMBYS.[/p][/quote]As NIMBY stands for Not In My Back Yard, I fail to see the connection. Linesman
  • Score: 0

10:33am Fri 16 Nov 12

Zeo says...

Waste of money, first time I didn't vote, I didn't know it was election day until my other half pointed out 'Polling Station' on the way to work and she asked what it was about, I said something about a police crime thing, had a Google about it at work and thought, 'Oh another political thing, I thought it was all truly independent people.'
Waste of money, first time I didn't vote, I didn't know it was election day until my other half pointed out 'Polling Station' on the way to work and she asked what it was about, I said something about a police crime thing, had a Google about it at work and thought, 'Oh another political thing, I thought it was all truly independent people.' Zeo
  • Score: 0

10:40am Fri 16 Nov 12

Portland Saint says...

This is a shambles for this government. David Cameron and co. critised the trades unions recently for not have a 50% vote mandate for industrial action and proposed making future changes to TU laws but are quite happy to ingnore an exceptionally low turnout for this and state that the new Police and Crime Commisioners have a mandate to run their police authorities - a mandate from whom, certainly not the majority of the British people. And before the Tory apologist start I am not a TU member just a citizen who would appreciate some honesty and fair play from this government.
This is a shambles for this government. David Cameron and co. critised the trades unions recently for not have a 50% vote mandate for industrial action and proposed making future changes to TU laws but are quite happy to ingnore an exceptionally low turnout for this and state that the new Police and Crime Commisioners have a mandate to run their police authorities - a mandate from whom, certainly not the majority of the British people. And before the Tory apologist start I am not a TU member just a citizen who would appreciate some honesty and fair play from this government. Portland Saint
  • Score: 0

10:40am Fri 16 Nov 12

News Fanatic says...

Tory Michael Mates, the likely winner, is 78. I think that is too old. There comes a times when everyone should give way to younger people.
Tory Michael Mates, the likely winner, is 78. I think that is too old. There comes a times when everyone should give way to younger people. News Fanatic
  • Score: 0

10:40am Fri 16 Nov 12

SteveAvis359 says...

eurogordi wrote:
Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic.
People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote.
It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
[quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote? SteveAvis359
  • Score: 0

10:48am Fri 16 Nov 12

flowergirly says...

What is more concerning is that everyone was voting for "I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here" last night and that cost them money!!

Just an idea but maybe we should have put all candidates in the jungle together and had phone voting?????
What is more concerning is that everyone was voting for "I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here" last night and that cost them money!! Just an idea but maybe we should have put all candidates in the jungle together and had phone voting????? flowergirly
  • Score: 0

10:50am Fri 16 Nov 12

Portland Saint says...

flowergirly wrote:
What is more concerning is that everyone was voting for "I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here" last night and that cost them money!! Just an idea but maybe we should have put all candidates in the jungle together and had phone voting?????
Excellent observation!
[quote][p][bold]flowergirly[/bold] wrote: What is more concerning is that everyone was voting for "I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here" last night and that cost them money!! Just an idea but maybe we should have put all candidates in the jungle together and had phone voting?????[/p][/quote]Excellent observation! Portland Saint
  • Score: 0

10:53am Fri 16 Nov 12

lordswood lady says...

Seems like another quango to me. I thought this government were meant to be cutting down on quangos. All this PCC farce has done is create 49 more jobs at £85,000 give or take, plus all their accompanying entourage of staff and expenses. The quango empire grows!
Seems like another quango to me. I thought this government were meant to be cutting down on quangos. All this PCC farce has done is create 49 more jobs at £85,000 give or take, plus all their accompanying entourage of staff and expenses. The quango empire grows! lordswood lady
  • Score: 0

10:53am Fri 16 Nov 12

nedscrumpo says...

Picture looks like an alien rematerialising. Any chance our hopeless senior managers could be beamed up by Scotty!
Picture looks like an alien rematerialising. Any chance our hopeless senior managers could be beamed up by Scotty! nedscrumpo
  • Score: 0

10:54am Fri 16 Nov 12

Portland Saint says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
You unfortunately assume from your Ivory Tower that everyone has the means to access to information but the cuts this government has introduced have reduced access to libraries and online information for the most disadvantaged in our society who are the least likely to have IT access..
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]You unfortunately assume from your Ivory Tower that everyone has the means to access to information but the cuts this government has introduced have reduced access to libraries and online information for the most disadvantaged in our society who are the least likely to have IT access.. Portland Saint
  • Score: 0

10:57am Fri 16 Nov 12

SteveAvis359 says...

Portland Saint wrote:
SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
You unfortunately assume from your Ivory Tower that everyone has the means to access to information but the cuts this government has introduced have reduced access to libraries and online information for the most disadvantaged in our society who are the least likely to have IT access..
Have they also taken away your legs?
[quote][p][bold]Portland Saint[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]You unfortunately assume from your Ivory Tower that everyone has the means to access to information but the cuts this government has introduced have reduced access to libraries and online information for the most disadvantaged in our society who are the least likely to have IT access..[/p][/quote]Have they also taken away your legs? SteveAvis359
  • Score: 0

11:01am Fri 16 Nov 12

sotonwinch09 says...

The police have always been independent from the Government which is why we have one of the best police forces in the world.

The vast majority of these candidates are also connected to a political party. Why politicize the police?

If every candidate was just a normal independent person then people would have taken more interest in the election instead of the boring old political rubbish which everyone is fed up of.

I did vote but voted the independent person. I don't know his name or priorities but the key factor was he is not affiliated with a party.
The police have always been independent from the Government which is why we have one of the best police forces in the world. The vast majority of these candidates are also connected to a political party. Why politicize the police? If every candidate was just a normal independent person then people would have taken more interest in the election instead of the boring old political rubbish which everyone is fed up of. I did vote but voted the independent person. I don't know his name or priorities but the key factor was he is not affiliated with a party. sotonwinch09
  • Score: 0

11:03am Fri 16 Nov 12

Over the Edge says...

I hope all the people commenting this morning actually voted yesterday.

I agree it was as it seems a waste of money, on line information was available, however you have to have internet access to do so.

My mum (74) and no internet access didn't vote, many older people I spoke were in the same boat, in normal elections the granny vote (so to speak) it quite big, maybe older people not having internet played a part in the poor turn, voter apathy always plays a part and of course lack of informed information.

I saw one lady at the polling station rip her polling card up because there was no candidate information available, she made the effort to vote but didn't have a clue about the candidate, you'd have thought the candidates or their sponsors would have put information about the candidate in each polling station, someone missed a trick.

I believe the Mates chappie will win, he will accept cuts in budget from Central Government like a good little Tory, I see a police staff being privatised and maybe even police stations handed over to the private sector to run like the courts and believe me the way the courts have run lately we're all in for a shock.
I hope all the people commenting this morning actually voted yesterday. I agree it was as it seems a waste of money, on line information was available, however you have to have internet access to do so. My mum (74) and no internet access didn't vote, many older people I spoke were in the same boat, in normal elections the granny vote (so to speak) it quite big, maybe older people not having internet played a part in the poor turn, voter apathy always plays a part and of course lack of informed information. I saw one lady at the polling station rip her polling card up because there was no candidate information available, she made the effort to vote but didn't have a clue about the candidate, you'd have thought the candidates or their sponsors would have put information about the candidate in each polling station, someone missed a trick. I believe the Mates chappie will win, he will accept cuts in budget from Central Government like a good little Tory, I see a police staff being privatised and maybe even police stations handed over to the private sector to run like the courts and believe me the way the courts have run lately we're all in for a shock. Over the Edge
  • Score: 0

11:07am Fri 16 Nov 12

Shoong says...

Linesman wrote:
Shoong wrote:
Pure folly, waste of time and resources, end of.
So you think that Dodgy Dave and Naughty Nick got it wrong?
I believe the intentions may have been good, but ultimately there was no need for it. It should have been just the best best person fit for the job. If you believe I would back anything the government would do 100% then you are misguided. You must always scrutinize and observe and make your own mind up.

As for the name calling - do grow up please, or leave the adult issues to the adults. Cheers.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Shoong[/bold] wrote: Pure folly, waste of time and resources, end of.[/p][/quote]So you think that Dodgy Dave and Naughty Nick got it wrong?[/p][/quote]I believe the intentions may have been good, but ultimately there was no need for it. It should have been just the best best person fit for the job. If you believe I would back anything the government would do 100% then you are misguided. You must always scrutinize and observe and make your own mind up. As for the name calling - do grow up please, or leave the adult issues to the adults. Cheers. Shoong
  • Score: 0

11:13am Fri 16 Nov 12

jade25 says...

I was a polling clerk in Southampton for this voting day yesterday and yes it was a poor turnout! Only 250 people voted at our station and was advised that another had only had 30!! People kept moaning saying that they had'nt recieved any information on the candidates and they were not willing to vote. What a waste of time!!!
I was a polling clerk in Southampton for this voting day yesterday and yes it was a poor turnout! Only 250 people voted at our station and was advised that another had only had 30!! People kept moaning saying that they had'nt recieved any information on the candidates and they were not willing to vote. What a waste of time!!! jade25
  • Score: 0

11:14am Fri 16 Nov 12

The Watcher says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic.
People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote.
It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
I think it is rather insulting to use the actions and deeds of thousands of heroes who defended this country and it's democratic institutions in this manner.
.
This was not democracy as we know it or want.
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]I think it is rather insulting to use the actions and deeds of thousands of heroes who defended this country and it's democratic institutions in this manner. . This was not democracy as we know it or want. The Watcher
  • Score: 0

11:14am Fri 16 Nov 12

cliffwalker says...

Not voting was a deliberate act on my part since I didn't want a PCC at all and if I had wanted one it wouldn't have been any of those standing. What is the serious fault in the previous system that this new system is supposed to put right?
Not voting was a deliberate act on my part since I didn't want a PCC at all and if I had wanted one it wouldn't have been any of those standing. What is the serious fault in the previous system that this new system is supposed to put right? cliffwalker
  • Score: 0

11:22am Fri 16 Nov 12

SaintDon13 says...

Strangely enough I troubled to find out what it was all about, I discounted the Political element as I didn't see the relevance of that, I selected the best candidates and voted as advised. Why? Because it was my Democratic right to do that. Apathy is OK as long as you don't complain later if the wrong person got the job.
Strangely enough I troubled to find out what it was all about, I discounted the Political element as I didn't see the relevance of that, I selected the best candidates and voted as advised. Why? Because it was my Democratic right to do that. Apathy is OK as long as you don't complain later if the wrong person got the job. SaintDon13
  • Score: 0

11:30am Fri 16 Nov 12

one in a million says...

Linesman wrote:
one in a million wrote: There needs to be a minimum quorum for all elections. The arrogance of the political cast needs addressing; how can we possibly vote for anyone who thinks just because the have a party affiliation they automatically should get a vote is beyond me?! Must be NIMBYS.
As NIMBY stands for Not In My Back Yard, I fail to see the connection.
I know what it stands for....and am taking the mick out of contributors who seem very fond of using it....
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]one in a million[/bold] wrote: There needs to be a minimum quorum for all elections. The arrogance of the political cast needs addressing; how can we possibly vote for anyone who thinks just because the have a party affiliation they automatically should get a vote is beyond me?! Must be NIMBYS.[/p][/quote]As NIMBY stands for Not In My Back Yard, I fail to see the connection.[/p][/quote]I know what it stands for....and am taking the mick out of contributors who seem very fond of using it.... one in a million
  • Score: 0

11:33am Fri 16 Nov 12

SteveAvis359 says...

The Watcher wrote:
SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
I think it is rather insulting to use the actions and deeds of thousands of heroes who defended this country and it's democratic institutions in this manner. . This was not democracy as we know it or want.
I am a Royal Engineer in the British Army and have been for twelve years.

It is by no means insulting to suggest that people who have given so much more than I, have given us the right to vote in what we believe.

I think your being rather naive to say this is not democracy as we know or want it! that is merely your opinion.

Democracy gives the opportunity to vote on anything. It does not need to be political.
[quote][p][bold]The Watcher[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]I think it is rather insulting to use the actions and deeds of thousands of heroes who defended this country and it's democratic institutions in this manner. . This was not democracy as we know it or want.[/p][/quote]I am a Royal Engineer in the British Army and have been for twelve years. It is by no means insulting to suggest that people who have given so much more than I, have given us the right to vote in what we believe. I think your being rather naive to say this is not democracy as we know or want it! that is merely your opinion. Democracy gives the opportunity to vote on anything. It does not need to be political. SteveAvis359
  • Score: 0

11:41am Fri 16 Nov 12

Lockssmart says...

I blame DLT
I blame DLT Lockssmart
  • Score: 0

11:42am Fri 16 Nov 12

Sotonians_lets_pull_together says...

Well, I voted, but I would be surprised if turnout for Hampshire was much above 5%, judging from the numbers attending my local polling station

It will be interesting to see what the impact of low turnout is on the results.

Will those who bothered be the "tough on crime" voters, perhaps more likely to vote conservative?

Will they be the friends and family of serving police officers who wish to protest the cuts by voting labour? Along of course with others whofeel like adding a protest vote?

Will those who favour a more liberal approach to policing support this initiative, or will they not bother to turn out at all?
Well, I voted, but I would be surprised if turnout for Hampshire was much above 5%, judging from the numbers attending my local polling station It will be interesting to see what the impact of low turnout is on the results. Will those who bothered be the "tough on crime" voters, perhaps more likely to vote conservative? Will they be the friends and family of serving police officers who wish to protest the cuts by voting labour? Along of course with others whofeel like adding a protest vote? Will those who favour a more liberal approach to policing support this initiative, or will they not bother to turn out at all? Sotonians_lets_pull_together
  • Score: 0

11:44am Fri 16 Nov 12

Sotonians_lets_pull_together says...

SaintDon13 wrote:
Strangely enough I troubled to find out what it was all about, I discounted the Political element as I didn't see the relevance of that, I selected the best candidates and voted as advised. Why? Because it was my Democratic right to do that. Apathy is OK as long as you don't complain later if the wrong person got the job.
I agree, I think it was more important to read up on what each candidate's priorities are.
[quote][p][bold]SaintDon13[/bold] wrote: Strangely enough I troubled to find out what it was all about, I discounted the Political element as I didn't see the relevance of that, I selected the best candidates and voted as advised. Why? Because it was my Democratic right to do that. Apathy is OK as long as you don't complain later if the wrong person got the job.[/p][/quote]I agree, I think it was more important to read up on what each candidate's priorities are. Sotonians_lets_pull_together
  • Score: 0

11:46am Fri 16 Nov 12

Portland Saint says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
Portland Saint wrote:
SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
You unfortunately assume from your Ivory Tower that everyone has the means to access to information but the cuts this government has introduced have reduced access to libraries and online information for the most disadvantaged in our society who are the least likely to have IT access..
Have they also taken away your legs?
So you now assume that our entire society is fit, healthy, literate and on line connected - you must live in some kind of nirvana.
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Portland Saint[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]You unfortunately assume from your Ivory Tower that everyone has the means to access to information but the cuts this government has introduced have reduced access to libraries and online information for the most disadvantaged in our society who are the least likely to have IT access..[/p][/quote]Have they also taken away your legs?[/p][/quote]So you now assume that our entire society is fit, healthy, literate and on line connected - you must live in some kind of nirvana. Portland Saint
  • Score: 0

11:52am Fri 16 Nov 12

arthur dalyrimple says...

the public are learning , don,t vote it only encourages them , sham democracy , sham government.
the public are learning , don,t vote it only encourages them , sham democracy , sham government. arthur dalyrimple
  • Score: 0

11:56am Fri 16 Nov 12

Plum Pudding says...

I did not vote, I deliberately did not vote, I suppose I should have gone to my polling station and spoiled my ballot paper, I simply do not agree with PCCs. If it is right to have a PCC, I cannot see why it would not be equally right to have an elected Education Commisioner, an elected Fire & Safety Commisioner, one for Roads, one for Local Public Transport, in fact one for every possible local service that us plebs would like to have budgets set, strategies and services provided, but hey!
I did not vote, I deliberately did not vote, I suppose I should have gone to my polling station and spoiled my ballot paper, I simply do not agree with PCCs. If it is right to have a PCC, I cannot see why it would not be equally right to have an elected Education Commisioner, an elected Fire & Safety Commisioner, one for Roads, one for Local Public Transport, in fact one for every possible local service that us plebs would like to have budgets set, strategies and services provided, but hey! Plum Pudding
  • Score: 0

12:13pm Fri 16 Nov 12

SteveAvis359 says...

Portland Saint wrote:
SteveAvis359 wrote:
Portland Saint wrote:
SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
You unfortunately assume from your Ivory Tower that everyone has the means to access to information but the cuts this government has introduced have reduced access to libraries and online information for the most disadvantaged in our society who are the least likely to have IT access..
Have they also taken away your legs?
So you now assume that our entire society is fit, healthy, literate and on line connected - you must live in some kind of nirvana.
I accept that there are a few that for some reason or another will not have the means to vote or find out the necessary information to do so with an informed decision but I am talking about the people who have such access (Such as people like you who clearly have connectivity, as they are online right now!) and the people who are fit and able yet complain that they have not been given the information and who value their vote. They have a vested interest to seek that information themselves.
[quote][p][bold]Portland Saint[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Portland Saint[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]You unfortunately assume from your Ivory Tower that everyone has the means to access to information but the cuts this government has introduced have reduced access to libraries and online information for the most disadvantaged in our society who are the least likely to have IT access..[/p][/quote]Have they also taken away your legs?[/p][/quote]So you now assume that our entire society is fit, healthy, literate and on line connected - you must live in some kind of nirvana.[/p][/quote]I accept that there are a few that for some reason or another will not have the means to vote or find out the necessary information to do so with an informed decision but I am talking about the people who have such access (Such as people like you who clearly have connectivity, as they are online right now!) and the people who are fit and able yet complain that they have not been given the information and who value their vote. They have a vested interest to seek that information themselves. SteveAvis359
  • Score: 0

12:18pm Fri 16 Nov 12

soton1980 says...

I didn't vote because I think PCC's are a bad idea. I suspect that many other potential voters feel the same way.
I didn't vote because I think PCC's are a bad idea. I suspect that many other potential voters feel the same way. soton1980
  • Score: 0

12:18pm Fri 16 Nov 12

George4th says...

Hillsborough comes to mind and gives a good reason why we should have a separate Police Commissioner.
>
It seems that the population did not want to excercise their democratic right through sheer apathy. It is truly amazing how many reasons have been trotted out for "not voting! People who function everyday suddenly struck down on Polling Day with a whole list of excuses! How do you justify plain laziness?!!
Hillsborough comes to mind and gives a good reason why we should have a separate Police Commissioner. > It seems that the population did not want to excercise their democratic right through sheer apathy. It is truly amazing how many reasons have been trotted out for "not voting! People who function everyday suddenly struck down on Polling Day with a whole list of excuses! How do you justify plain laziness?!! George4th
  • Score: 0

12:40pm Fri 16 Nov 12

The Watcher says...

George4th wrote:
Hillsborough comes to mind and gives a good reason why we should have a separate Police Commissioner.
>
It seems that the population did not want to excercise their democratic right through sheer apathy. It is truly amazing how many reasons have been trotted out for "not voting! People who function everyday suddenly struck down on Polling Day with a whole list of excuses! How do you justify plain laziness?!!
Don't confuse apathy with a total rejection of a shambolic policy that is not wanted.
.
The guy in Wiltshire secured 5% of the electorate's support.
.
There is a real danger here that our fine Police Forces will be brought in to disrepute and its authority undermined through this reckless act.
.
My Party should be the party of Law and Order, instead yesterday's shambles has undermined its credibility.
[quote][p][bold]George4th[/bold] wrote: Hillsborough comes to mind and gives a good reason why we should have a separate Police Commissioner. > It seems that the population did not want to excercise their democratic right through sheer apathy. It is truly amazing how many reasons have been trotted out for "not voting! People who function everyday suddenly struck down on Polling Day with a whole list of excuses! How do you justify plain laziness?!![/p][/quote]Don't confuse apathy with a total rejection of a shambolic policy that is not wanted. . The guy in Wiltshire secured 5% of the electorate's support. . There is a real danger here that our fine Police Forces will be brought in to disrepute and its authority undermined through this reckless act. . My Party should be the party of Law and Order, instead yesterday's shambles has undermined its credibility. The Watcher
  • Score: 0

12:46pm Fri 16 Nov 12

ohec says...

I voted (postal) for the U.K.I.P man more to register my disgust at the three main parties making it political more than anything else, i made one choice and one choice only the whole idea of a second choice is disgusting. I don't like the idea of bringing politics into law enforcement or any thing else but if i make a choice that is the person i want not second best, but like others i think the whole thing should now be scrapped especially as the Tory has already brought the whole thing into disrepute and made it a farce.
I voted (postal) for the U.K.I.P man more to register my disgust at the three main parties making it political more than anything else, i made one choice and one choice only the whole idea of a second choice is disgusting. I don't like the idea of bringing politics into law enforcement or any thing else but if i make a choice that is the person i want not second best, but like others i think the whole thing should now be scrapped especially as the Tory has already brought the whole thing into disrepute and made it a farce. ohec
  • Score: 0

12:56pm Fri 16 Nov 12

George4th says...

The Watcher wrote:
George4th wrote:
Hillsborough comes to mind and gives a good reason why we should have a separate Police Commissioner.
>
It seems that the population did not want to excercise their democratic right through sheer apathy. It is truly amazing how many reasons have been trotted out for "not voting! People who function everyday suddenly struck down on Polling Day with a whole list of excuses! How do you justify plain laziness?!!
Don't confuse apathy with a total rejection of a shambolic policy that is not wanted.
.
The guy in Wiltshire secured 5% of the electorate's support.
.
There is a real danger here that our fine Police Forces will be brought in to disrepute and its authority undermined through this reckless act.
.
My Party should be the party of Law and Order, instead yesterday's shambles has undermined its credibility.
I am a believer in acountability and that is why I am in favour of a Police Commisssioner. The Hillsborough Disaster was the classic example of how people can close ranks when only answerable to their own.
[quote][p][bold]The Watcher[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]George4th[/bold] wrote: Hillsborough comes to mind and gives a good reason why we should have a separate Police Commissioner. > It seems that the population did not want to excercise their democratic right through sheer apathy. It is truly amazing how many reasons have been trotted out for "not voting! People who function everyday suddenly struck down on Polling Day with a whole list of excuses! How do you justify plain laziness?!![/p][/quote]Don't confuse apathy with a total rejection of a shambolic policy that is not wanted. . The guy in Wiltshire secured 5% of the electorate's support. . There is a real danger here that our fine Police Forces will be brought in to disrepute and its authority undermined through this reckless act. . My Party should be the party of Law and Order, instead yesterday's shambles has undermined its credibility.[/p][/quote]I am a believer in acountability and that is why I am in favour of a Police Commisssioner. The Hillsborough Disaster was the classic example of how people can close ranks when only answerable to their own. George4th
  • Score: 0

12:58pm Fri 16 Nov 12

soton-mike80 says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic.
People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote.
It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
I voted in this election, just like I have in every election since I was old enough to vote. I voted because in this country I have a voice.

There are so many on this planet who don't let their people have a voice - my ancestors fought for my right to be governed by whom I choose. For this one reason I will always vote.

Let us hope that this apathy towards our constitutional rights doesn't lead to a dictatorship taking control of the nation... you'll soon start **** if you suddenly lose your right to vote!
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]I voted in this election, just like I have in every election since I was old enough to vote. I voted because in this country I have a voice. There are so many on this planet who don't let their people have a voice - my ancestors fought for my right to be governed by whom I choose. For this one reason I will always vote. Let us hope that this apathy towards our constitutional rights doesn't lead to a dictatorship taking control of the nation... you'll soon start **** if you suddenly lose your right to vote! soton-mike80
  • Score: 0

1:02pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Dresnez says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic.
People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote.
It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
Shambolic because:

No one wanted elected Police Commissioners.

Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc.

Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age.

Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers.

Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need.

There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear.

Low turnout makes the result null and void
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]Shambolic because: No one wanted elected Police Commissioners. Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc. Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age. Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers. Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need. There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear. Low turnout makes the result null and void Dresnez
  • Score: 0

1:02pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Dresnez says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic.
People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote.
It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
Shambolic because:

No one wanted elected Police Commissioners.

Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc.

Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age.

Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers.

Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need.

There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear.

Low turnout makes the result null and void
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]Shambolic because: No one wanted elected Police Commissioners. Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc. Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age. Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers. Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need. There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear. Low turnout makes the result null and void Dresnez
  • Score: 0

1:02pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Dresnez says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic.
People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote.
It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
Shambolic because:

No one wanted elected Police Commissioners.

Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc.

Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age.

Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers.

Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need.

There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear.

Low turnout makes the result null and void
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]Shambolic because: No one wanted elected Police Commissioners. Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc. Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age. Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers. Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need. There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear. Low turnout makes the result null and void Dresnez
  • Score: 0

1:02pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Dresnez says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic.
People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote.
It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
Shambolic because:

No one wanted elected Police Commissioners.

Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc.

Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age.

Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers.

Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need.

There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear.

Low turnout makes the result null and void
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]Shambolic because: No one wanted elected Police Commissioners. Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc. Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age. Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers. Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need. There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear. Low turnout makes the result null and void Dresnez
  • Score: 0

1:02pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Dresnez says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic.
People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote.
It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
Shambolic because:

No one wanted elected Police Commissioners.

Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc.

Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age.

Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers.

Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need.

There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear.

Low turnout makes the result null and void
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]Shambolic because: No one wanted elected Police Commissioners. Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc. Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age. Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers. Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need. There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear. Low turnout makes the result null and void Dresnez
  • Score: 0

1:02pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Dresnez says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.
I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic.
People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote.
It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?
Shambolic because:

No one wanted elected Police Commissioners.

Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc.

Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age.

Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers.

Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need.

There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear.

Low turnout makes the result null and void
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: Surely any results from this shambolic election should be declared "null and void" and those behind the idea should compensate the nation for such a waste of money that could have been used in putting more Police Officers on the beat.[/p][/quote]I am a little confused as to why people are branding this shambolic. People have struggled for years on our behalf to give us democracy and the right to vote. It is the public who did not use their vote who are "Shambolic", are we to be spoon fed everything in life? especially when access to information is so readily available to us, why could we not invest some time and gain the relevant information to allow us to vote?[/p][/quote]Shambolic because: No one wanted elected Police Commissioners. Candidates are Political, Politics should never ever come into policing. We cannot have law and order subjected to the political whims of Labour or Conservatives or Greens etc. Elections are for all the people - ALL of voting age. Many elderly people will not have computers, many poor people may not have computers. Many people may lack computer skills to find the information they need. There should have been more electioneering. Lazy effort from candidates it would appear. Low turnout makes the result null and void Dresnez
  • Score: 0

1:06pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Subject48 says...

I was at work untill very late. I came home had my tea and it was about 8o'clock by that time.

Are then suggesing I spend £5 bus fair and about 2 hours so i can go and vote for something which I totaly do not agree with, just so some old **** can get £85k job and ensure his party has connections with the police?

Just because I have the right to vote does by no means the thing I am expeced to vote on should be implemented int he first place.

Now what they should ahve done is have a vote before the PCC post was introduced. I would have voted for that if it killed me and I would have voted NO. As would have everybody else.

And if then for some reason majority voted yes, then fair enough, democracy has spoken.

And no, I did not vote for im a celebrity get me out of here either....
I was at work untill very late. I came home had my tea and it was about 8o'clock by that time. Are then suggesing I spend £5 bus fair and about 2 hours so i can go and vote for something which I totaly do not agree with, just so some old **** can get £85k job and ensure his party has connections with the police? Just because I have the right to vote does by no means the thing I am expeced to vote on should be implemented int he first place. Now what they should ahve done is have a vote before the PCC post was introduced. I would have voted for that if it killed me and I would have voted NO. As would have everybody else. And if then for some reason majority voted yes, then fair enough, democracy has spoken. And no, I did not vote for im a celebrity get me out of here either.... Subject48
  • Score: 0

1:16pm Fri 16 Nov 12

SteveAvis359 says...

Subject48 wrote:
I was at work untill very late. I came home had my tea and it was about 8o'clock by that time. Are then suggesing I spend £5 bus fair and about 2 hours so i can go and vote for something which I totaly do not agree with, just so some old **** can get £85k job and ensure his party has connections with the police? Just because I have the right to vote does by no means the thing I am expeced to vote on should be implemented int he first place. Now what they should ahve done is have a vote before the PCC post was introduced. I would have voted for that if it killed me and I would have voted NO. As would have everybody else. And if then for some reason majority voted yes, then fair enough, democracy has spoken. And no, I did not vote for im a celebrity get me out of here either....
Not all parties are politically driven (That comment was more for Dresnez) and as for the ridiculous comment about an old *** getting a £85k job you should have read what each candidate stood for because if you had you would have seen Don Jerrad of the Justice and Anti Corruption party has pledged that he will not take a salary but instead use it towards achieving his priorities if elected.
A person that would do such a thing should be commended and is just one reason why they got my vote
[quote][p][bold]Subject48[/bold] wrote: I was at work untill very late. I came home had my tea and it was about 8o'clock by that time. Are then suggesing I spend £5 bus fair and about 2 hours so i can go and vote for something which I totaly do not agree with, just so some old **** can get £85k job and ensure his party has connections with the police? Just because I have the right to vote does by no means the thing I am expeced to vote on should be implemented int he first place. Now what they should ahve done is have a vote before the PCC post was introduced. I would have voted for that if it killed me and I would have voted NO. As would have everybody else. And if then for some reason majority voted yes, then fair enough, democracy has spoken. And no, I did not vote for im a celebrity get me out of here either....[/p][/quote]Not all parties are politically driven (That comment was more for Dresnez) and as for the ridiculous comment about an old *** getting a £85k job you should have read what each candidate stood for because if you had you would have seen Don Jerrad of the Justice and Anti Corruption party has pledged that he will not take a salary but instead use it towards achieving his priorities if elected. A person that would do such a thing should be commended and is just one reason why they got my vote SteveAvis359
  • Score: 0

2:37pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Subject48 says...

get realisitc. When the elections come in we can all see what % of positions across the country went to non affilitated candidates.
get realisitc. When the elections come in we can all see what % of positions across the country went to non affilitated candidates. Subject48
  • Score: 0

2:48pm Fri 16 Nov 12

4-front says...

sotonwinch09 wrote:
The police have always been independent from the Government which is why we have one of the best police forces in the world.

The vast majority of these candidates are also connected to a political party. Why politicize the police?

If every candidate was just a normal independent person then people would have taken more interest in the election instead of the boring old political rubbish which everyone is fed up of.

I did vote but voted the independent person. I don't know his name or priorities but the key factor was he is not affiliated with a party.
Both Police and Judiciary have always been non-politicised except for many years ago in the days of Watch Committees and smaller police forces. Not quite true to say Simon Hayes is completely independent since he was the Conservative Leader of New Forest District Council. However he has declared his intention nit to privatise police services and his local government background (as well as Crime Stoppers) should stand him in good stead in developing multidisciplinary approaches to crime prevention and enforcement.

Theresa May was not naive in having 41 largely county based elections where the Tories were bound to be in the majority! I am currently waiting for the Hampshire election result to be announced but won't be surprised if Michael Mates wins! Most of the Tory voters I spoke to merely asked "Who is the Tory candidate?". They were oblivious to his track record re cash for his flat, the Asil Nadir case, the watch inscribed "Don't let the bxggers get you down!" (ref Met Police and SFO) or the convenience residential arangements he has both in Hampshire and adjacent county!

Also I have spoken to people who thought they had to vote for two candidates otherwise their ballot paper would be invalid (checked and not so - you could have voted for just one!), Also If you voted for the same candidate in each column I discovered that only the first choice vote would count; and again the ballot paper wouldn't be invalid. Official lack of clear instructions for voters which meant some people didn'y vote OR voted for say the political candidate as second vote which they objected to on principle.

However, I don't suppose Theresa is at all bothered. She got her way ...... and WE will reap the results ... and the extra costs taken out of the global Police budget.

Hey, ho!
[quote][p][bold]sotonwinch09[/bold] wrote: The police have always been independent from the Government which is why we have one of the best police forces in the world. The vast majority of these candidates are also connected to a political party. Why politicize the police? If every candidate was just a normal independent person then people would have taken more interest in the election instead of the boring old political rubbish which everyone is fed up of. I did vote but voted the independent person. I don't know his name or priorities but the key factor was he is not affiliated with a party.[/p][/quote]Both Police and Judiciary have always been non-politicised except for many years ago in the days of Watch Committees and smaller police forces. Not quite true to say Simon Hayes is completely independent since he was the Conservative Leader of New Forest District Council. However he has declared his intention nit to privatise police services and his local government background (as well as Crime Stoppers) should stand him in good stead in developing multidisciplinary approaches to crime prevention and enforcement. Theresa May was not naive in having 41 largely county based elections where the Tories were bound to be in the majority! I am currently waiting for the Hampshire election result to be announced but won't be surprised if Michael Mates wins! Most of the Tory voters I spoke to merely asked "Who is the Tory candidate?". They were oblivious to his track record re cash for his flat, the Asil Nadir case, the watch inscribed "Don't let the bxggers get you down!" (ref Met Police and SFO) or the convenience residential arangements he has both in Hampshire and adjacent county! Also I have spoken to people who thought they had to vote for two candidates otherwise their ballot paper would be invalid (checked and not so - you could have voted for just one!), Also If you voted for the same candidate in each column I discovered that only the first choice vote would count; and again the ballot paper wouldn't be invalid. Official lack of clear instructions for voters which meant some people didn'y vote OR voted for say the political candidate as second vote which they objected to on principle. However, I don't suppose Theresa is at all bothered. She got her way ...... and WE will reap the results ... and the extra costs taken out of the global Police budget. Hey, ho! 4-front
  • Score: 0

3:13pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Scrutinizer says...

News Fanatic wrote:
Tory Michael Mates, the likely winner, is 78. I think that is too old. There comes a times when everyone should give way to younger people.
An arrogant man, and on top of it someone who has almost fanatically supported a (now) convicted criminal! But what a state of affairs - and for such an important position of power in our society?! I, like most on here (and without doubt elsewhere), considered the whole Police Commisioner election thing to be a complete and utter shambles! We saw very little of any of the candididates in the local media, certainly not on t.v. In the end, and for what it was worth - not much, I strongly suspect (!) - I ended up voting for the candidate who 'sounded' most in favour of battling local anti-social (criminal!) behaviour. That, and to try and keep Mates out. I've yet to discover whether it worked. Sadly, I suspect not...
[quote][p][bold]News Fanatic[/bold] wrote: Tory Michael Mates, the likely winner, is 78. I think that is too old. There comes a times when everyone should give way to younger people.[/p][/quote]An arrogant man, and on top of it someone who has almost fanatically supported a (now) convicted criminal! But what a state of affairs - and for such an important position of power in our society?! I, like most on here (and without doubt elsewhere), considered the whole Police Commisioner election thing to be a complete and utter shambles! We saw very little of any of the candididates in the local media, certainly not on t.v. In the end, and for what it was worth - not much, I strongly suspect (!) - I ended up voting for the candidate who 'sounded' most in favour of battling local anti-social (criminal!) behaviour. That, and to try and keep Mates out. I've yet to discover whether it worked. Sadly, I suspect not... Scrutinizer
  • Score: 0

3:17pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Subject48 says...

Well said 4 front.
Well said 4 front. Subject48
  • Score: 0

8:11pm Fri 16 Nov 12

bigfella777 says...

All I got was a polling card, no info at all so I didn't bother.
All I got was a polling card, no info at all so I didn't bother. bigfella777
  • Score: 0

1:35am Sat 17 Nov 12

megacycle says...

SteveAvis359 wrote:
Subject48 wrote:
I was at work untill very late. I came home had my tea and it was about 8o'clock by that time. Are then suggesing I spend £5 bus fair and about 2 hours so i can go and vote for something which I totaly do not agree with, just so some old **** can get £85k job and ensure his party has connections with the police? Just because I have the right to vote does by no means the thing I am expeced to vote on should be implemented int he first place. Now what they should ahve done is have a vote before the PCC post was introduced. I would have voted for that if it killed me and I would have voted NO. As would have everybody else. And if then for some reason majority voted yes, then fair enough, democracy has spoken. And no, I did not vote for im a celebrity get me out of here either....
Not all parties are politically driven (That comment was more for Dresnez) and as for the ridiculous comment about an old *** getting a £85k job you should have read what each candidate stood for because if you had you would have seen Don Jerrad of the Justice and Anti Corruption party has pledged that he will not take a salary but instead use it towards achieving his priorities if elected.
A person that would do such a thing should be commended and is just one reason why they got my vote
B0llocks (x3r)
[quote][p][bold]SteveAvis359[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Subject48[/bold] wrote: I was at work untill very late. I came home had my tea and it was about 8o'clock by that time. Are then suggesing I spend £5 bus fair and about 2 hours so i can go and vote for something which I totaly do not agree with, just so some old **** can get £85k job and ensure his party has connections with the police? Just because I have the right to vote does by no means the thing I am expeced to vote on should be implemented int he first place. Now what they should ahve done is have a vote before the PCC post was introduced. I would have voted for that if it killed me and I would have voted NO. As would have everybody else. And if then for some reason majority voted yes, then fair enough, democracy has spoken. And no, I did not vote for im a celebrity get me out of here either....[/p][/quote]Not all parties are politically driven (That comment was more for Dresnez) and as for the ridiculous comment about an old *** getting a £85k job you should have read what each candidate stood for because if you had you would have seen Don Jerrad of the Justice and Anti Corruption party has pledged that he will not take a salary but instead use it towards achieving his priorities if elected. A person that would do such a thing should be commended and is just one reason why they got my vote[/p][/quote]B0llocks (x3r) megacycle
  • Score: 0

12:23pm Tue 20 Nov 12

An0nymous/735PONSE says...

Police everywhere,
Justice nowhere

Wake up people
Police everywhere, Justice nowhere Wake up people An0nymous/735PONSE
  • Score: 0

9:23pm Wed 21 Nov 12

Terry_Nutkins says...

Utter tosh! A bad day for democracy is the instigation of a police commissioner itself & making the police political. There was no choice in that & it concerns me yet down the line, we'll be blamed and the truth is, the choices we are given are pointless & of little consequence.

Large industry & multi-national conglomerates seem to have no issues side stepping democracy & taxes whilst influencing politics & amassing obscene wealth & power. Is this another facet for global influences orchestrating an agenda for self interest & another window for an individual to influence policing on behalf of others whose interests may not be to the good of the working communities? The UN, IMF, WTO, NATO...all make out they're doing us a favour when it's really preserving the interests of super rich bankers & corporations.

I just hope the Police commissioner doesn't enforce any of these stealth laws squeezed into parliament during media fed agent provacateur incidents like the London Riots. Because police can't control riots but can easily manage hundred of thousands of football fans every week, many hell bent on public disorder. Oh, not much in the news after about the initial racial catalyst & incident. Funny that. The hidden agenda behind the news isn't even orchestrated very well anymore. They can't be bothered.

Who regulates the commissioner & who does he report to? I am highly suspicious. I hope I am wrong but the way this has been brought in, like so many illusions of democracy, is the same tried & tested & ultimately damaging crowbar, breaking up what is left of our dilapidated model of democracy!
Utter tosh! A bad day for democracy is the instigation of a police commissioner itself & making the police political. There was no choice in that & it concerns me yet down the line, we'll be blamed and the truth is, the choices we are given are pointless & of little consequence. Large industry & multi-national conglomerates seem to have no issues side stepping democracy & taxes whilst influencing politics & amassing obscene wealth & power. Is this another facet for global influences orchestrating an agenda for self interest & another window for an individual to influence policing on behalf of others whose interests may not be to the good of the working communities? The UN, IMF, WTO, NATO...all make out they're doing us a favour when it's really preserving the interests of super rich bankers & corporations. I just hope the Police commissioner doesn't enforce any of these stealth laws squeezed into parliament during media fed agent provacateur incidents like the London Riots. Because police can't control riots but can easily manage hundred of thousands of football fans every week, many hell bent on public disorder. Oh, not much in the news after about the initial racial catalyst & incident. Funny that. The hidden agenda behind the news isn't even orchestrated very well anymore. They can't be bothered. Who regulates the commissioner & who does he report to? I am highly suspicious. I hope I am wrong but the way this has been brought in, like so many illusions of democracy, is the same tried & tested & ultimately damaging crowbar, breaking up what is left of our dilapidated model of democracy! Terry_Nutkins
  • Score: 0

12:55pm Fri 23 Nov 12

sburman says...

I did not vote in the farce. An elected PCC is a stupid American idea that should never had happened here.

To have an important job like this run by a politician is totally wrong and, despite his `Independent` Tag, our new PCC is a political person.

When difficult decisions have to be made then they should not be based on Political Doctrine or appeasing the popular vote so he/she can get re-elected but on the law of the land and the safety of the people.

Are we next to have elected leaders of out Army Regiments, Naval Ships and Air Force squadrons?
I did not vote in the farce. An elected PCC is a stupid American idea that should never had happened here. To have an important job like this run by a politician is totally wrong and, despite his `Independent` Tag, our new PCC is a political person. When difficult decisions have to be made then they should not be based on Political Doctrine or appeasing the popular vote so he/she can get re-elected but on the law of the land and the safety of the people. Are we next to have elected leaders of out Army Regiments, Naval Ships and Air Force squadrons? sburman
  • Score: 0

12:56pm Fri 23 Nov 12

sburman says...

I did not vote in the farce. An elected PCC is a stupid American idea that should never had happened here.

To have an important job like this run by a politician is totally wrong and, despite his `Independent` Tag, our new PCC is a political person.

When difficult decisions have to be made then they should not be based on Political Doctrine or appeasing the popular vote so he/she can get re-elected but on the law of the land and the safety of the people.

Are we next to have elected leaders of out Army Regiments, Naval Ships and Air Force squadrons?
I did not vote in the farce. An elected PCC is a stupid American idea that should never had happened here. To have an important job like this run by a politician is totally wrong and, despite his `Independent` Tag, our new PCC is a political person. When difficult decisions have to be made then they should not be based on Political Doctrine or appeasing the popular vote so he/she can get re-elected but on the law of the land and the safety of the people. Are we next to have elected leaders of out Army Regiments, Naval Ships and Air Force squadrons? sburman
  • Score: 0

9:50pm Fri 23 Nov 12

Scrutinizer says...

Scrutinizer wrote:
News Fanatic wrote: Tory Michael Mates, the likely winner, is 78. I think that is too old. There comes a times when everyone should give way to younger people.
An arrogant man, and on top of it someone who has almost fanatically supported a (now) convicted criminal! But what a state of affairs - and for such an important position of power in our society?! I, like most on here (and without doubt elsewhere), considered the whole Police Commisioner election thing to be a complete and utter shambles! We saw very little of any of the candididates in the local media, certainly not on t.v. In the end, and for what it was worth - not much, I strongly suspect (!) - I ended up voting for the candidate who 'sounded' most in favour of battling local anti-social (criminal!) behaviour. That, and to try and keep Mates out. I've yet to discover whether it worked. Sadly, I suspect not...
Well, at least the arrogant Michael Mates failed to get in. So that's at least one positive aspect to come out of the election I am pleased to say I've contributed to - if nothing else!
[quote][p][bold]Scrutinizer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]News Fanatic[/bold] wrote: Tory Michael Mates, the likely winner, is 78. I think that is too old. There comes a times when everyone should give way to younger people.[/p][/quote]An arrogant man, and on top of it someone who has almost fanatically supported a (now) convicted criminal! But what a state of affairs - and for such an important position of power in our society?! I, like most on here (and without doubt elsewhere), considered the whole Police Commisioner election thing to be a complete and utter shambles! We saw very little of any of the candididates in the local media, certainly not on t.v. In the end, and for what it was worth - not much, I strongly suspect (!) - I ended up voting for the candidate who 'sounded' most in favour of battling local anti-social (criminal!) behaviour. That, and to try and keep Mates out. I've yet to discover whether it worked. Sadly, I suspect not...[/p][/quote]Well, at least the arrogant Michael Mates failed to get in. So that's at least one positive aspect to come out of the election I am pleased to say I've contributed to - if nothing else! Scrutinizer
  • Score: 0

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