Is this the most controversial book of the 21st century?

Is this the most controversial book of the 21st century?

Is this the most controversial book of the 21st century?

First published in News Daily Echo: Photograph of the Author by , Senior Feature Writer

HE’S author of perhaps one of the most controversial books of the 21st century and one half of a media monitoring website which is changing the way people think about news.

David Cromwell is asking us to reconsider the way we think about ourselves in the West.

In his latest book Why Are We The Good Guys?, subtitled ‘reclaiming your mind from the delusions of propaganda’, he challenges the idea that British and other Western governments are necessarily acting out of good intentions, particularly in terms of foreign policy, and critiques the way the media supports this standpoint.

“The golden rule of state violence is that whatever our enemies do is ‘terrorism’ and whatever ‘we’ do is ‘counterterrorism’ or ‘peace enforcement,” says Cromwell, who claims much of the media takes that line.

Operating as one half of media watchdog Media Lens, Cromwell has built up a following of thousands, eager for an alternative look at the news, all from the study at the back of his house in central Southampton. He fits being the bane of many journalists’ lives around taking his two sons, Sean and Stuart, to football, school and various clubs, sharing the duties with his partner Foske.

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Cromwell speaks with a Scottish accent, his Glaswegian tones softened by years of absence, but has lived in Southampton for 20 years – “long enough to follow the trials and tribulations of Saints”.

A professional scientist, he came to the city to work at what is now the National Oceanography Centre but left two years ago to work full time on Media Lens and as a writer. His writing career began with penning letters to the press in the 90s, particularly about environmental matters.

“I had a number published but if I did anything challenging I met a brick wall,” he says.

“Then I realised the whole issue of the media is a fundamental problem in trying to change society. It became a central issue of concern, which I wrote about in my first book (Private Planet).”

While researching the book, he met author David Edwards and the pair decided to set up a website which called the mainstream media to account; in 2001 Media Lens was born.

“We started out just sending short emails to friends and family about current events and the way they were being reported,” says Cromwell.

“Then John Pilger, the well-known journalist and documentary maker, heard of us and helped us get going. He has been a tremendous supporter. Media Lens grew gradually over the last ten years or so.

“I was doing a full-time job at the National Oceanography Centre putting physics into practice, and in the evenings and at weekends I was trying to analyse the media and write about it and do media activism. With a family as well, eventually I had to choose between fulltime science and media analysis.”

Cromwell’s latest book is full of facts and figures, especially about British and American foreign policy, such as quoting historian Mark Curtis, who estimates there have been around ten million deaths in the post Second World War period for which Britain bears ‘significant responsibility’.

Cromwell goes on to claim: “Of these, Britain has ‘direct responsibility’ for between four and six million deaths.

“These are shocking figures and essentially unmentionable in corporate news and debate.”

Among the snippets in the book is the one that first got Cromwell really interested in the way the media was reporting Western foreign policy.

“One of the things that got me really motivated in the first place was hearing that before the invasion of Iraq there was a system of UN sanctions against Iraq from the early 90s,” he says. “Two of the UN’s senior diplomats in Baghdad resigned in protest at the sanctions which they said, with good evidence, were leading to the deaths of 5,000 – 6,000 children a month. This was an issue I researched and was trying to get the mainstream press to cover. It was one of these issues where we met a brick wall.”

Cromwell argues that, since the Iraq war, people have become increasingly aware that the news may not be presenting the complete picture, especially when it comes to dealing with our foreign policy.

He doesn’t believe this is a conspiracy but rather a result of the “constraints and priorities of rich advertisers and corporate owners” (although it should be noted that he is as scathing of the BBC as any other outlet) as well as some journalists’ desire to maintain their powerful contacts.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, some journalists haven’t taken kindly to Media Lens’ work.

“There are some who are more right wing who have tried to smear us,” he says. “For example, when we said Saddam was falsely portrayed as a threat they said ‘Media Lens supports Saddam’. But we tend not to focus on the easy targets in the tabloid press but on what’s seen as the liberal media. Because in their mind they’re a better class of journalist, they react more strongly when criticised.

“If we are going to improve the state of the media we need to make quite basic changes in society and that means devolving power back to the people. If you look back at the 60s there were all these interlocking movements that were almost on the verge of causing revolutionary change but didn’t quite manage it. I think as a basic minimum you have to raise public awareness.”

Cromwell argues that the public are becoming more aware of unbalanced reporting and responding to it.

“We now see a lot more people emailing the media (about news stories) before we have issued a media alert. Without being grandiose about it, maybe we’ve helped push things along a bit. Maybe there’s enough momentum now and I can retire and just potter round in the garden shed.

“I never thought Media Lens would last this long. Maybe in five years time there will be less need for us. I think it would be an ideal to become obsolete, because so many other people were doing it anyway there wouldn’t be any need for us.”

  • Why are We the Good Guys? is published by Zero Books and on sale at October Books in Portswood and other booksellers.

Comments (29)

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9:06am Mon 28 Jan 13

Cerdicjute says...

What's so controversial about pointing out the stories the mainstream media fail to report or dress up as something else? The reason we were in Iraq was not 'regime change' or 'democratisation' but for the black stuff. Libya? Same deal. The West acts to maintain its interests and it should come as no surprise that this does not correspond to the interests of others.
What's so controversial about pointing out the stories the mainstream media fail to report or dress up as something else? The reason we were in Iraq was not 'regime change' or 'democratisation' but for the black stuff. Libya? Same deal. The West acts to maintain its interests and it should come as no surprise that this does not correspond to the interests of others. Cerdicjute
  • Score: 0

9:25am Mon 28 Jan 13

Rockstone says...

The reason we were in Iraq the first time was because they invaded a US and UK ally, Kuwait.
The reason we went there the second time was Bush Junior's obsession with finishing off what his father had not. 9/11 was the excuse he needed to invade a second time and complete his obsession stupidly followed by the star struck imbecile Blair.
It was obvious then to all except those two idiots that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11-tyrant that he was, because al qaeda was just as much a threat to him as the West but in different ways. The threat from the West was sanctions.
Now of course al qaeda is all over Iraq.
The reason we were in Iraq the first time was because they invaded a US and UK ally, Kuwait. The reason we went there the second time was Bush Junior's obsession with finishing off what his father had not. 9/11 was the excuse he needed to invade a second time and complete his obsession stupidly followed by the star struck imbecile Blair. It was obvious then to all except those two idiots that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11-tyrant that he was, because al qaeda was just as much a threat to him as the West but in different ways. The threat from the West was sanctions. Now of course al qaeda is all over Iraq. Rockstone
  • Score: 0

9:31am Mon 28 Jan 13

St Retford says...

God I love Noam Chomksy. He's like the tree of dissident knowledge and his seeds are landing in fertile ground the world over, hence we have books like this.

I look forward to reading it.
God I love Noam Chomksy. He's like the tree of dissident knowledge and his seeds are landing in fertile ground the world over, hence we have books like this. I look forward to reading it. St Retford
  • Score: 1

10:09am Mon 28 Jan 13

Raxx says...

Rockstone wrote:
The reason we were in Iraq the first time was because they invaded a US and UK ally, Kuwait.
The reason we went there the second time was Bush Junior's obsession with finishing off what his father had not. 9/11 was the excuse he needed to invade a second time and complete his obsession stupidly followed by the star struck imbecile Blair.
It was obvious then to all except those two idiots that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11-tyrant that he was, because al qaeda was just as much a threat to him as the West but in different ways. The threat from the West was sanctions.
Now of course al qaeda is all over Iraq.
Do you want to buy a bridge?
[quote][p][bold]Rockstone[/bold] wrote: The reason we were in Iraq the first time was because they invaded a US and UK ally, Kuwait. The reason we went there the second time was Bush Junior's obsession with finishing off what his father had not. 9/11 was the excuse he needed to invade a second time and complete his obsession stupidly followed by the star struck imbecile Blair. It was obvious then to all except those two idiots that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11-tyrant that he was, because al qaeda was just as much a threat to him as the West but in different ways. The threat from the West was sanctions. Now of course al qaeda is all over Iraq.[/p][/quote]Do you want to buy a bridge? Raxx
  • Score: 0

10:45am Mon 28 Jan 13

southy says...

David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.
David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia. southy
  • Score: 0

11:33am Mon 28 Jan 13

Rockstone says...

Raxx wrote:
Rockstone wrote:
The reason we were in Iraq the first time was because they invaded a US and UK ally, Kuwait.
The reason we went there the second time was Bush Junior's obsession with finishing off what his father had not. 9/11 was the excuse he needed to invade a second time and complete his obsession stupidly followed by the star struck imbecile Blair.
It was obvious then to all except those two idiots that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11-tyrant that he was, because al qaeda was just as much a threat to him as the West but in different ways. The threat from the West was sanctions.
Now of course al qaeda is all over Iraq.
Do you want to buy a bridge?
Why, have you got one for sale?
[quote][p][bold]Raxx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Rockstone[/bold] wrote: The reason we were in Iraq the first time was because they invaded a US and UK ally, Kuwait. The reason we went there the second time was Bush Junior's obsession with finishing off what his father had not. 9/11 was the excuse he needed to invade a second time and complete his obsession stupidly followed by the star struck imbecile Blair. It was obvious then to all except those two idiots that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11-tyrant that he was, because al qaeda was just as much a threat to him as the West but in different ways. The threat from the West was sanctions. Now of course al qaeda is all over Iraq.[/p][/quote]Do you want to buy a bridge?[/p][/quote]Why, have you got one for sale? Rockstone
  • Score: 0

11:52am Mon 28 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.
.. you, southy, need to do a lot more research on just about everything you post on this website.

Your record of factual inaccuracies is quite staggering – you’re in a league of your own in this respect. To tell others to ‘do a bit of research’ is quite frankly hilarious.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.[/p][/quote].. you, southy, need to do a lot more research on just about everything you post on this website. Your record of factual inaccuracies is quite staggering – you’re in a league of your own in this respect. To tell others to ‘do a bit of research’ is quite frankly hilarious. freefinker
  • Score: 0

12:37pm Mon 28 Jan 13

southy says...

freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.
.. you, southy, need to do a lot more research on just about everything you post on this website.

Your record of factual inaccuracies is quite staggering – you’re in a league of your own in this respect. To tell others to ‘do a bit of research’ is quite frankly hilarious.
I do a lot more than you will do, plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on, and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it, probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be.

You can't even get what Trotsky is right
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.[/p][/quote].. you, southy, need to do a lot more research on just about everything you post on this website. Your record of factual inaccuracies is quite staggering – you’re in a league of your own in this respect. To tell others to ‘do a bit of research’ is quite frankly hilarious.[/p][/quote]I do a lot more than you will do, plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on, and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it, probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be. You can't even get what Trotsky is right southy
  • Score: 0

12:39pm Mon 28 Jan 13

southy says...

Now Free do you know what I am refering to when I said to do some research in that area.
Now Free do you know what I am refering to when I said to do some research in that area. southy
  • Score: 0

12:53pm Mon 28 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.
.. you, southy, need to do a lot more research on just about everything you post on this website.

Your record of factual inaccuracies is quite staggering – you’re in a league of your own in this respect. To tell others to ‘do a bit of research’ is quite frankly hilarious.
I do a lot more than you will do, plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on, and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it, probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be.

You can't even get what Trotsky is right
'I do a lot more than you will do' - what does that mean? A lot more what? And how do you know what I do?

'plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on' - they do not appear to serve you well if you are now claiming all your numerous factual errors are down to dodgy data from others. The numbers of EU residents in the UK being your latest disaster.

'and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it' - like what? The 2012 general election that somehow failed to happen, perhaps?

'probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be' - now you are just getting delusional. Do you really want me to quote the full list of your factual errors for the last 2 years?

'You can't even get what Trotsky is right' - does not make any sense.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.[/p][/quote].. you, southy, need to do a lot more research on just about everything you post on this website. Your record of factual inaccuracies is quite staggering – you’re in a league of your own in this respect. To tell others to ‘do a bit of research’ is quite frankly hilarious.[/p][/quote]I do a lot more than you will do, plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on, and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it, probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be. You can't even get what Trotsky is right[/p][/quote]'I do a lot more than you will do' - what does that mean? A lot more what? And how do you know what I do? 'plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on' - they do not appear to serve you well if you are now claiming all your numerous factual errors are down to dodgy data from others. The numbers of EU residents in the UK being your latest disaster. 'and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it' - like what? The 2012 general election that somehow failed to happen, perhaps? 'probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be' - now you are just getting delusional. Do you really want me to quote the full list of your factual errors for the last 2 years? 'You can't even get what Trotsky is right' - does not make any sense. freefinker
  • Score: 0

12:54pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Subject48 says...

Shut up southy. That's the most arrogant incorrect, comment I have ever seen you post. And I have stopped bothering to read your drivel about a month ago.

I can be pretty arrogant and confident in my views, but you sir, are just out there.

Even if you do get some things right occasionally, the bigoted, selfish, self centered nature of your posts, opinions and views, instantly discredits anything you say. I think its a shame. I do pity you, but more importantly; I pity the cause you are harming.
Shut up southy. That's the most arrogant incorrect, comment I have ever seen you post. And I have stopped bothering to read your drivel about a month ago. I can be pretty arrogant and confident in my views, but you sir, are just out there. Even if you do get some things right occasionally, the bigoted, selfish, self centered nature of your posts, opinions and views, instantly discredits anything you say. I think its a shame. I do pity you, but more importantly; I pity the cause you are harming. Subject48
  • Score: 0

1:24pm Mon 28 Jan 13

southy says...

freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.
.. you, southy, need to do a lot more research on just about everything you post on this website.

Your record of factual inaccuracies is quite staggering – you’re in a league of your own in this respect. To tell others to ‘do a bit of research’ is quite frankly hilarious.
I do a lot more than you will do, plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on, and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it, probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be.

You can't even get what Trotsky is right
'I do a lot more than you will do' - what does that mean? A lot more what? And how do you know what I do?

'plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on' - they do not appear to serve you well if you are now claiming all your numerous factual errors are down to dodgy data from others. The numbers of EU residents in the UK being your latest disaster.

'and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it' - like what? The 2012 general election that somehow failed to happen, perhaps?

'probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be' - now you are just getting delusional. Do you really want me to quote the full list of your factual errors for the last 2 years?

'You can't even get what Trotsky is right' - does not make any sense.
Come free your so willing to call me a trotsky but you do not even know the simplest thing about trotsky policy. Because if you did you would not be calling me a trotskist.
just think about all the different groups I can call on for information in the Uk along, and the number of people in each of those groups.
And if you been watching a documentry on Channel 4 back in Dec then you would know what I said about the biggest EU community in the UK is the French and most are base in London, and the biggest world community in the UK are the Hindu's, the documentry was about Politics and the figures that the extremist right wing Capitalist and its supporters are throwing about are unrealistic and are totally false.
So I got a general Election Prediction wrong but that General Election could happen at any time now, all it needs is the rank and file of the Unions to get there act together and over ride the TUC board committee and there leadership to make this General Strike happen when that takes place this government will fall.
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.[/p][/quote].. you, southy, need to do a lot more research on just about everything you post on this website. Your record of factual inaccuracies is quite staggering – you’re in a league of your own in this respect. To tell others to ‘do a bit of research’ is quite frankly hilarious.[/p][/quote]I do a lot more than you will do, plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on, and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it, probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be. You can't even get what Trotsky is right[/p][/quote]'I do a lot more than you will do' - what does that mean? A lot more what? And how do you know what I do? 'plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on' - they do not appear to serve you well if you are now claiming all your numerous factual errors are down to dodgy data from others. The numbers of EU residents in the UK being your latest disaster. 'and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it' - like what? The 2012 general election that somehow failed to happen, perhaps? 'probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be' - now you are just getting delusional. Do you really want me to quote the full list of your factual errors for the last 2 years? 'You can't even get what Trotsky is right' - does not make any sense.[/p][/quote]Come free your so willing to call me a trotsky but you do not even know the simplest thing about trotsky policy. Because if you did you would not be calling me a trotskist. just think about all the different groups I can call on for information in the Uk along, and the number of people in each of those groups. And if you been watching a documentry on Channel 4 back in Dec then you would know what I said about the biggest EU community in the UK is the French and most are base in London, and the biggest world community in the UK are the Hindu's, the documentry was about Politics and the figures that the extremist right wing Capitalist and its supporters are throwing about are unrealistic and are totally false. So I got a general Election Prediction wrong but that General Election could happen at any time now, all it needs is the rank and file of the Unions to get there act together and over ride the TUC board committee and there leadership to make this General Strike happen when that takes place this government will fall. southy
  • Score: 0

1:54pm Mon 28 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.
.. you, southy, need to do a lot more research on just about everything you post on this website.

Your record of factual inaccuracies is quite staggering – you’re in a league of your own in this respect. To tell others to ‘do a bit of research’ is quite frankly hilarious.
I do a lot more than you will do, plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on, and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it, probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be.

You can't even get what Trotsky is right
'I do a lot more than you will do' - what does that mean? A lot more what? And how do you know what I do?

'plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on' - they do not appear to serve you well if you are now claiming all your numerous factual errors are down to dodgy data from others. The numbers of EU residents in the UK being your latest disaster.

'and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it' - like what? The 2012 general election that somehow failed to happen, perhaps?

'probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be' - now you are just getting delusional. Do you really want me to quote the full list of your factual errors for the last 2 years?

'You can't even get what Trotsky is right' - does not make any sense.
Come free your so willing to call me a trotsky but you do not even know the simplest thing about trotsky policy. Because if you did you would not be calling me a trotskist.
just think about all the different groups I can call on for information in the Uk along, and the number of people in each of those groups.
And if you been watching a documentry on Channel 4 back in Dec then you would know what I said about the biggest EU community in the UK is the French and most are base in London, and the biggest world community in the UK are the Hindu's, the documentry was about Politics and the figures that the extremist right wing Capitalist and its supporters are throwing about are unrealistic and are totally false.
So I got a general Election Prediction wrong but that General Election could happen at any time now, all it needs is the rank and file of the Unions to get there act together and over ride the TUC board committee and there leadership to make this General Strike happen when that takes place this government will fall.
.. you make it up as you go along, don’t you?

I am well aware of the life and politics of Trotsky and well as Trotskyism.

The Socialist Party (England and Wales) of which you are a member is a Trotskyist party, evidenced by its membership of Committee for a Workers' International, and international federation of Trotskyist political parties. Full stop, no argument.

You have said in the space of five days that (1) 'The biggest European community in the UK are the French .. they don't even reach 10,000 in numbers.’ followed by (2) ‘the biggest european community in the UK is the French .. and there numbers dont even come to 1/4 million’

So what is it then, less than 10,000 or less than 250,000? And the Census 2011 data revealing there were 579,000 people of Polish decent in the UK, as I pointed out to you, still doesn’t deter you from saying the French are more numerous?

Your foolishness seems to know no bounds.

But what's that I see, an admission you got something wrong? Wow southy, we have come a long way today. I hope it’s going to be the first of many, but I doubt it.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: David Cromwell should do a bit of research in between WWI and WWII, and how come Japan went from being one of our best allies to an enemy, and the talks and connections off Churchill and USA politicians, Corporations and the Mafia.[/p][/quote].. you, southy, need to do a lot more research on just about everything you post on this website. Your record of factual inaccuracies is quite staggering – you’re in a league of your own in this respect. To tell others to ‘do a bit of research’ is quite frankly hilarious.[/p][/quote]I do a lot more than you will do, plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on, and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it, probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be. You can't even get what Trotsky is right[/p][/quote]'I do a lot more than you will do' - what does that mean? A lot more what? And how do you know what I do? 'plus the back up of groups of people all over the place that i can call on' - they do not appear to serve you well if you are now claiming all your numerous factual errors are down to dodgy data from others. The numbers of EU residents in the UK being your latest disaster. 'and why i come up with things that going to happen way before you ever hear about it' - like what? The 2012 general election that somehow failed to happen, perhaps? 'probley why I am more correct or closer to the truth you will ever be' - now you are just getting delusional. Do you really want me to quote the full list of your factual errors for the last 2 years? 'You can't even get what Trotsky is right' - does not make any sense.[/p][/quote]Come free your so willing to call me a trotsky but you do not even know the simplest thing about trotsky policy. Because if you did you would not be calling me a trotskist. just think about all the different groups I can call on for information in the Uk along, and the number of people in each of those groups. And if you been watching a documentry on Channel 4 back in Dec then you would know what I said about the biggest EU community in the UK is the French and most are base in London, and the biggest world community in the UK are the Hindu's, the documentry was about Politics and the figures that the extremist right wing Capitalist and its supporters are throwing about are unrealistic and are totally false. So I got a general Election Prediction wrong but that General Election could happen at any time now, all it needs is the rank and file of the Unions to get there act together and over ride the TUC board committee and there leadership to make this General Strike happen when that takes place this government will fall.[/p][/quote].. you make it up as you go along, don’t you? I am well aware of the life and politics of Trotsky and well as Trotskyism. The Socialist Party (England and Wales) of which you are a member is a Trotskyist party, evidenced by its membership of Committee for a Workers' International, and international federation of Trotskyist political parties. Full stop, no argument. You have said in the space of five days that (1) 'The biggest European community in the UK are the French .. they don't even reach 10,000 in numbers.’ followed by (2) ‘the biggest european community in the UK is the French .. and there numbers dont even come to 1/4 million’ So what is it then, less than 10,000 or less than 250,000? And the Census 2011 data revealing there were 579,000 people of Polish decent in the UK, as I pointed out to you, still doesn’t deter you from saying the French are more numerous? Your foolishness seems to know no bounds. But what's that I see, an admission you got something wrong? Wow southy, we have come a long way today. I hope it’s going to be the first of many, but I doubt it. freefinker
  • Score: 0

2:19pm Mon 28 Jan 13

southy says...

Wrong yet again Free The Socialist Party Great Britian and the WSWS are Trotsky partys, but the Socialist Party is not
Wrong yet again Free The Socialist Party Great Britian and the WSWS are Trotsky partys, but the Socialist Party is not southy
  • Score: 0

2:25pm Mon 28 Jan 13

southy says...

So what is it then, less than 10,000 or less than 250,000? And the Census 2011 data revealing there were 579,000 people of Polish decent in the UK, as I pointed out to you, still doesn’t deter you from saying the French are more numerous?

Do you know how many people are of French decent in the Uk, Millions are of French decent near on every single person in the UK are. My next door neighbour is off Polish decent but they are not Polish they are English
So what is it then, less than 10,000 or less than 250,000? And the Census 2011 data revealing there were 579,000 people of Polish decent in the UK, as I pointed out to you, still doesn’t deter you from saying the French are more numerous? Do you know how many people are of French decent in the Uk, Millions are of French decent near on every single person in the UK are. My next door neighbour is off Polish decent but they are not Polish they are English southy
  • Score: 0

2:50pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Subject48 says...

polish are of decent people, you're quite right.
polish are of decent people, you're quite right. Subject48
  • Score: 0

2:55pm Mon 28 Jan 13

freefinker says...

.. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent.

The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you?

So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?
.. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent. The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you? So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree? freefinker
  • Score: 0

2:57pm Mon 28 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
Wrong yet again Free The Socialist Party Great Britian and the WSWS are Trotsky partys, but the Socialist Party is not
Splitters!!
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: Wrong yet again Free The Socialist Party Great Britian and the WSWS are Trotsky partys, but the Socialist Party is not[/p][/quote]Splitters!! freefinker
  • Score: 0

3:12pm Mon 28 Jan 13

southy says...

freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
Wrong yet again Free The Socialist Party Great Britian and the WSWS are Trotsky partys, but the Socialist Party is not
Splitters!!
yes i drop the s also it happens.

The policys are diffrent free, socialist party supports the rank and file of the unions, the wsws and spgb do not are real trotskys policy supporters.
at the moment the wsws and the spgb are going it alone
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: Wrong yet again Free The Socialist Party Great Britian and the WSWS are Trotsky partys, but the Socialist Party is not[/p][/quote]Splitters!![/p][/quote]yes i drop the s also it happens. The policys are diffrent free, socialist party supports the rank and file of the unions, the wsws and spgb do not are real trotskys policy supporters. at the moment the wsws and the spgb are going it alone southy
  • Score: 0

3:35pm Mon 28 Jan 13

southy says...

freefinker wrote:
.. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent.

The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you?

So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?
And again the same will apply my next door neighbours are of Polish origin, but they are not Polish but declare on the Census are of Polish Orgins but they are English. I know at lest 4 Polish Familys around here that do the same, they are English they was born here, just that there parents and/or grandparents was not.

And yes your right about We are all of African descent, a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes that is till they find out more and things change again.
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: .. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent. The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you? So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?[/p][/quote]And again the same will apply my next door neighbours are of Polish origin, but they are not Polish but declare on the Census are of Polish Orgins but they are English. I know at lest 4 Polish Familys around here that do the same, they are English they was born here, just that there parents and/or grandparents was not. And yes your right about We are all of African descent, a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes that is till they find out more and things change again. southy
  • Score: 0

3:55pm Mon 28 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
.. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent.

The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you?

So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?
And again the same will apply my next door neighbours are of Polish origin, but they are not Polish but declare on the Census are of Polish Orgins but they are English. I know at lest 4 Polish Familys around here that do the same, they are English they was born here, just that there parents and/or grandparents was not.

And yes your right about We are all of African descent, a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes that is till they find out more and things change again.
southy, you can look it up if you want (if you are capable) but the actual Census 2011 question was: -

‘What is your country of birth?’.

579,000 people answered ‘Poland’. It’s nothing to do with what you say your neighbour said. It’s a straightforward question and gets a straightforward answer. Repeat ‘What is your country of birth?’ Even you couldn’t get confused by that, could you?
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: .. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent. The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you? So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?[/p][/quote]And again the same will apply my next door neighbours are of Polish origin, but they are not Polish but declare on the Census are of Polish Orgins but they are English. I know at lest 4 Polish Familys around here that do the same, they are English they was born here, just that there parents and/or grandparents was not. And yes your right about We are all of African descent, a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes that is till they find out more and things change again.[/p][/quote]southy, you can look it up if you want (if you are capable) but the actual Census 2011 question was: - ‘What is your country of birth?’. 579,000 people answered ‘Poland’. It’s nothing to do with what you say your neighbour said. It’s a straightforward question and gets a straightforward answer. Repeat ‘What is your country of birth?’ Even you couldn’t get confused by that, could you? freefinker
  • Score: 0

3:57pm Mon 28 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
Wrong yet again Free The Socialist Party Great Britian and the WSWS are Trotsky partys, but the Socialist Party is not
Splitters!!
yes i drop the s also it happens.

The policys are diffrent free, socialist party supports the rank and file of the unions, the wsws and spgb do not are real trotskys policy supporters.
at the moment the wsws and the spgb are going it alone
ZZZZ, ZZZZ, ZZZZ.

You are all (and 'all' in this case = very few) insignificant; but still Trotskyist splitters. It's what you do best. Better than fighting the capitalists. Your real enemies are actually those with the same daft views who belong to a minutely different cult. Been there, done it, got the t shirt - so you can't fool me.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: Wrong yet again Free The Socialist Party Great Britian and the WSWS are Trotsky partys, but the Socialist Party is not[/p][/quote]Splitters!![/p][/quote]yes i drop the s also it happens. The policys are diffrent free, socialist party supports the rank and file of the unions, the wsws and spgb do not are real trotskys policy supporters. at the moment the wsws and the spgb are going it alone[/p][/quote]ZZZZ, ZZZZ, ZZZZ. You are all (and 'all' in this case = very few) insignificant; but still Trotskyist splitters. It's what you do best. Better than fighting the capitalists. Your real enemies are actually those with the same daft views who belong to a minutely different cult. Been there, done it, got the t shirt - so you can't fool me. freefinker
  • Score: 0

3:58pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Rockstone says...

No wondery they call you lot
'Scummers'
You never stop **** at each other or anyone else within range.
No wondery they call you lot 'Scummers' You never stop **** at each other or anyone else within range. Rockstone
  • Score: 0

4:08pm Mon 28 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
.. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent.

The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you?

So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?
And again the same will apply my next door neighbours are of Polish origin, but they are not Polish but declare on the Census are of Polish Orgins but they are English. I know at lest 4 Polish Familys around here that do the same, they are English they was born here, just that there parents and/or grandparents was not.

And yes your right about We are all of African descent, a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes that is till they find out more and things change again.
.. and no southy, we (Homo sapiens) are not 'a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes'. You obviously have absolutely no idea how evolution works; and in particular any of the latest evidence and thinking concerning the hominid branch of the ‘tree’. I don’t think you will find any evidence from any anywhere that even suggests we originated as a ‘cross bred’.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: .. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent. The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you? So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?[/p][/quote]And again the same will apply my next door neighbours are of Polish origin, but they are not Polish but declare on the Census are of Polish Orgins but they are English. I know at lest 4 Polish Familys around here that do the same, they are English they was born here, just that there parents and/or grandparents was not. And yes your right about We are all of African descent, a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes that is till they find out more and things change again.[/p][/quote].. and no southy, we (Homo sapiens) are not 'a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes'. You obviously have absolutely no idea how evolution works; and in particular any of the latest evidence and thinking concerning the hominid branch of the ‘tree’. I don’t think you will find any evidence from any anywhere that even suggests we originated as a ‘cross bred’. freefinker
  • Score: 0

6:08am Tue 29 Jan 13

Rising_Son says...

St Retford wrote:
God I love Noam Chomksy. He's like the tree of dissident knowledge and his seeds are landing in fertile ground the world over, hence we have books like this.

I look forward to reading it.
Have you read any of Norman Fairclough. It's a bit too dependent on Sapir-Whorfianism to be truly credible, but it gives food for thought.
[quote][p][bold]St Retford[/bold] wrote: God I love Noam Chomksy. He's like the tree of dissident knowledge and his seeds are landing in fertile ground the world over, hence we have books like this. I look forward to reading it.[/p][/quote]Have you read any of Norman Fairclough. It's a bit too dependent on Sapir-Whorfianism to be truly credible, but it gives food for thought. Rising_Son
  • Score: 0

12:05pm Tue 29 Jan 13

southy says...

freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
Wrong yet again Free The Socialist Party Great Britian and the WSWS are Trotsky partys, but the Socialist Party is not
Splitters!!
yes i drop the s also it happens.

The policys are diffrent free, socialist party supports the rank and file of the unions, the wsws and spgb do not are real trotskys policy supporters.
at the moment the wsws and the spgb are going it alone
ZZZZ, ZZZZ, ZZZZ.

You are all (and 'all' in this case = very few) insignificant; but still Trotskyist splitters. It's what you do best. Better than fighting the capitalists. Your real enemies are actually those with the same daft views who belong to a minutely different cult. Been there, done it, got the t shirt - so you can't fool me.
You just don't have a clue Free and just pumping out false propaganda of the Capitalist.


SP are not Trostskyist, and being one is not a bad thing like you are falsely trying to put across, Trostskist don't believe in Unions we do, They beleive in a Stateless Society, we say we do not need a union of counctrys to be able to work with each other, Working class people are able to work with each other and trade, not like the Captialist then end up goiing to war.

Fool you why should I, your being fooled by the Capitalist that you blindly follow.
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: Wrong yet again Free The Socialist Party Great Britian and the WSWS are Trotsky partys, but the Socialist Party is not[/p][/quote]Splitters!![/p][/quote]yes i drop the s also it happens. The policys are diffrent free, socialist party supports the rank and file of the unions, the wsws and spgb do not are real trotskys policy supporters. at the moment the wsws and the spgb are going it alone[/p][/quote]ZZZZ, ZZZZ, ZZZZ. You are all (and 'all' in this case = very few) insignificant; but still Trotskyist splitters. It's what you do best. Better than fighting the capitalists. Your real enemies are actually those with the same daft views who belong to a minutely different cult. Been there, done it, got the t shirt - so you can't fool me.[/p][/quote]You just don't have a clue Free and just pumping out false propaganda of the Capitalist. SP are not Trostskyist, and being one is not a bad thing like you are falsely trying to put across, Trostskist don't believe in Unions we do, They beleive in a Stateless Society, we say we do not need a union of counctrys to be able to work with each other, Working class people are able to work with each other and trade, not like the Captialist then end up goiing to war. Fool you why should I, your being fooled by the Capitalist that you blindly follow. southy
  • Score: 0

12:13pm Tue 29 Jan 13

southy says...

freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
.. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent.

The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you?

So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?
And again the same will apply my next door neighbours are of Polish origin, but they are not Polish but declare on the Census are of Polish Orgins but they are English. I know at lest 4 Polish Familys around here that do the same, they are English they was born here, just that there parents and/or grandparents was not.

And yes your right about We are all of African descent, a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes that is till they find out more and things change again.
.. and no southy, we (Homo sapiens) are not 'a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes'. You obviously have absolutely no idea how evolution works; and in particular any of the latest evidence and thinking concerning the hominid branch of the ‘tree’. I don’t think you will find any evidence from any anywhere that even suggests we originated as a ‘cross bred’.
Yes they are keep up with new finding will you, the x-gene that we all have came from Neanderthals, modern man is a cross bred of 2 or more up-right apes.
The x-gene is complex speach
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: .. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent. The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you? So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?[/p][/quote]And again the same will apply my next door neighbours are of Polish origin, but they are not Polish but declare on the Census are of Polish Orgins but they are English. I know at lest 4 Polish Familys around here that do the same, they are English they was born here, just that there parents and/or grandparents was not. And yes your right about We are all of African descent, a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes that is till they find out more and things change again.[/p][/quote].. and no southy, we (Homo sapiens) are not 'a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes'. You obviously have absolutely no idea how evolution works; and in particular any of the latest evidence and thinking concerning the hominid branch of the ‘tree’. I don’t think you will find any evidence from any anywhere that even suggests we originated as a ‘cross bred’.[/p][/quote]Yes they are keep up with new finding will you, the x-gene that we all have came from Neanderthals, modern man is a cross bred of 2 or more up-right apes. The x-gene is complex speach southy
  • Score: 0

12:50pm Tue 29 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
.. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent.

The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you?

So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?
And again the same will apply my next door neighbours are of Polish origin, but they are not Polish but declare on the Census are of Polish Orgins but they are English. I know at lest 4 Polish Familys around here that do the same, they are English they was born here, just that there parents and/or grandparents was not.

And yes your right about We are all of African descent, a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes that is till they find out more and things change again.
.. and no southy, we (Homo sapiens) are not 'a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes'. You obviously have absolutely no idea how evolution works; and in particular any of the latest evidence and thinking concerning the hominid branch of the ‘tree’. I don’t think you will find any evidence from any anywhere that even suggests we originated as a ‘cross bred’.
Yes they are keep up with new finding will you, the x-gene that we all have came from Neanderthals, modern man is a cross bred of 2 or more up-right apes.
The x-gene is complex speach
.. all total rubbish. You are just showing your ignorance and inability to understand the latest research of paleoanthropologists
.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: .. yes southy, you are right about the word 'decent' (my bad spelling, sorry) and I should not have used it. After all, we are ALL of African descent. The word I should have used to be technically correct was 'origin'. 579,000 people declared themselves in the 2011 Census to be of Polish 'origin'. That is, they originated in Poland and have subsequently arrived in the UK. Does that clear it up for you? So, a lot more that both your wildly dissimilar French statistics; don’t you agree?[/p][/quote]And again the same will apply my next door neighbours are of Polish origin, but they are not Polish but declare on the Census are of Polish Orgins but they are English. I know at lest 4 Polish Familys around here that do the same, they are English they was born here, just that there parents and/or grandparents was not. And yes your right about We are all of African descent, a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes that is till they find out more and things change again.[/p][/quote].. and no southy, we (Homo sapiens) are not 'a cross bred of at lest 2 great apes'. You obviously have absolutely no idea how evolution works; and in particular any of the latest evidence and thinking concerning the hominid branch of the ‘tree’. I don’t think you will find any evidence from any anywhere that even suggests we originated as a ‘cross bred’.[/p][/quote]Yes they are keep up with new finding will you, the x-gene that we all have came from Neanderthals, modern man is a cross bred of 2 or more up-right apes. The x-gene is complex speach[/p][/quote].. all total rubbish. You are just showing your ignorance and inability to understand the latest research of paleoanthropologists . freefinker
  • Score: 0

2:03pm Wed 30 Jan 13

Larouche says...

'The x-gene is complex speach'

Seriously??? The origin of complex speech is a subject which is still 99% theory (or perhaps theories is more correct) as there is very little empirical evidence to prove one way or another how it originated. I don't think it can be summed up in one, ill-informed sentence.

It's like saying 'The Y-Chromosome is Cok and Balls'
'The x-gene is complex speach' Seriously??? The origin of complex speech is a subject which is still 99% theory (or perhaps theories is more correct) as there is very little empirical evidence to prove one way or another how it originated. I don't think it can be summed up in one, ill-informed sentence. It's like saying 'The Y-Chromosome is Cok and Balls' Larouche
  • Score: 0

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