Concerns grow over patient care at Southampton General Hospital (From Daily Echo)
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Concerns grow over patient care at Southampton General Hospital
8:35am Monday 4th March 2013 in News
Exclusive By Melanie Adams, Health Reporter
David Adams
“HE SHOULD not have died.”
That is the damning verdict from a Southampton coroner looking into the death of David Adams at Southampton General Hospital.
The dad-of-three unexpectedly died four days after slipping in the bathroom at his Hedge End home, hitting his side on the toilet as he fell.
His heartbroken family believe he deserved better treatment – and coroner Keith Wiseman concluded he should not have died from his injuries.
And it is not the first time the coroner has raised concerns about care received at the hospital.
Within the last three weeks, the Daily Echo has reported that Mr Wiseman found the hospital had fallen “well below” the standard of care cancer patient Nigel James, 67, was entitled to.
And when considering the death of Hazel Ladbrooke, 57, he concluded that “important issues” had been raised about defective hospital equipment which “might affect other cases”.
Today Harry Dymond, chairman of patient group Southampton LINk, expressed his concerns and urged that staff at all levels learn the lessons to avoid such “distressing events”.
Southampton Coroner’s Court heard last week how 53-year-old David Adams, who had received heart surgery three years earlier, injured himself in a bathroom fall on November 15, 2011.
He was taken to the Emergency Department at Southampton General Hospital but was discharged after an X-ray revealed no internal bleeding but possible fractured ribs.
The next day his wife returned home from work to find her husband in pain and breathing with difficulty.
His GP Dr Peter Das, from the West End Surgery, visited, prescribed pain killers and urged him to drink fluids.
With no improvement by mid-afternoon on November 18, Mrs Adams called Dr Das, who recommended further fluids as Mr Adams had not passed urine now for at least 24 hours.
However, during his evidence Dr Das accepted that he had not clearly explained to Mrs Adams that he had significant concerns at the time of the call about Mr Adams’ lack of urine output.
He expected her to call back within an hour or two so Mr Adams could be admitted to hospital, but he failed to tell her that and Mr Adams continued to struggle until later that evening when an ambulance was called.
He was readmitted to the Emergency Department at 1.24am, on November 19, when doctors discovered internal bleeding and drained his chest.
Blood tests were immediately taken but the results did not come back until approximately five hours later – which Dr Nick Maskery, lead consultant of the department, described as “quite a considerable delay”.
He added that his experience would have told him to begin treating for renal failure before the results came back. However the doctor on duty waited for the results instead.
Mr Adams also required fluids but notes revealed that the first litre was not given quick enough and there was no evidence of any more being administered after.
Dr Maskery said he felt the importance of adequate fluids had not been appreciated and another consultant, Dr David Weeden, said he would have used a catheter and pushed fluids in a lot quicker.
In addition, notes concerning Mr Adams’ blood content were described as “shambolic” by independent expert Dr Edmund Neville.
He described how the notes concerning another patient had found their way into Mr Adams’ file.
The inquest heard how Mr Adams’ notes also described him as “fully treated” at the time he was being prepared to be transferred to the Cardiac High Dependency Unit.
Dr Maskery questioned this wording.
Mrs Adams herself described almost humorous conversations with a doctor and nurse, indicating their belief that Mr Adams was not in a life-threatening condition.
Both Mr Weeden and Dr Maskery stated that there was a failure to recognise how ill Mr Adams was, but that they would not have predicted the eventual outcome.
Mr David Weeden said that he shared the view that the “warning signs were there and they did need to be picked up”.
As the blood results were received, Mr Adams suffered a cardiac arrest and despite “frantic efforts” to save him, he was pronounced dead at 7.30am on November 19.
The coroner, who said this was a “worrying case”, concluded: “The abnormal results from his blood tests taken on admission were not available for many hours beyond a reasonable time span and in the meantime he did not receive sufficient fluid resuscitation and other general treatment and monitoring consistent with his condition, so that he went into renal failure which led directly to his irrecoverable cardiac arrest.”
He also states that there was no urgency in the care of Mr Adams, adding: “I do not believe for one moment on the evidence that I have received that anyone assisting in the care of Mr Adams throughout this whole period felt that they were dealing with a situation that was potentially fatal.
“Mr Adams was a relatively young man at the date of his death and one has to be left as one’s final thought with the fact that he should not have died from the problems that he had, even given his additional historical vulnerability; this aspect of the matter will no doubt be taken further beyond today.”
FAMILY REACTION
THE FAMILY of David Adams said that they would need time to absorb the verdict before making any decision on legal action.H
is wife Gail said: “I feel Dave died because a number of people in the NHS system didn't do their job properly: from primary care to hospital, it seems the only people who did a good job are the ambulance staff.
“It's truly frightening that so many indications that something was seriously wrong appear to have been missed or ignored.
“With all the knowledge, experience and technology available in the 21st century it seems unthinkable that something as basic as a lack of fluid resuscitation could have contributed so significantly to Dave's death.
“We trusted the judgement of the various medical professionals involved - they let us down.
“The way the hospital dealt with the investigation and reporting following Dave's death is shameful and their resistance to provide medical records and evidence has been appalling.
“I'd like to think lessons can be learned from what happened to Dave so that other people don't die needlessly and other families don't have to suffer as we are.
“However, until the hospital becomes more open and honest about their failings I don't know how they can learn from them.
“Dave deserved so much better than this; we all do.”
HOSPITAL RESPONSE
DR MICHAEL Marsh, medical director at UHS, said: “The treatment Mr Adams received on readmission fell well below the high standards we strive for and expect and we express our deepest sympathies to his family for their sad loss.
"Following this case, the Trust launched an immediate investigation and introduced a number of significant changes to practice around the management of patients with chest injuries on anticoagulants and the process for accurately identifying blood gas samples, while we are also looking into systems that ensure very urgent blood test samples are clearly identified and the results provided in a clinically-appropriate time frame.
“Although we hope the information provided at the inquest helps to give Mrs Adams and her family a clearer understanding of events, we recognise it continues to be an extremely difficult time for them all and would like to offer them our full support with any outstanding issues they have.”
And Mr Adams’ GP, Dr Peter Das, said that he had expressed his condolences and sympathies to Mrs Adams and her family and that he was unable to say any more.
Comments(57)
arthur dalyrimple
says...
9:35am Mon 4 Mar 13
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
Eric_Cartman
says...
10:20am Mon 4 Mar 13
arthur dalyrimple wrote:You are a moron
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
arthur dalyrimple
says...
10:38am Mon 4 Mar 13
Eric_Cartman wrote:takes one to know one .
arthur dalyrimple wrote:You are a moron
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
Raxx
says...
10:41am Mon 4 Mar 13
coolnesscoolness wrote:No, it's not.
Could it because the millions of immigrants that have poured in are getting free NHs care
Sign this petition to restrict Bulgarian and Romanians from entering the UK:
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/41492
Over 71,000 signed
happy to help.
100%HANTSBOY
says...
10:42am Mon 4 Mar 13
arthur dalyrimple wrote:Yes,I'm sure all the very hard working staff and volunteers at the hospital will appreciate that comment.
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
Linesman
says...
10:42am Mon 4 Mar 13
arthur dalyrimple wrote:Is it a Teacher's Training Day today?
Eric_Cartman wrote:takes one to know one .
arthur dalyrimple wrote:You are a moron
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
If it is not, why aren't you at school where your 'Yah Boo' behaviour is expected and hopefully, corrected.
Linesman
says...
10:45am Mon 4 Mar 13
Eric_Cartman wrote:It is pointless calling him a Moron.
arthur dalyrimple wrote:You are a moron
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
He probably thinks that Morons are a religious sect that have their HQ in Salt Lake City.
sparkster
says...
10:46am Mon 4 Mar 13
David Cameron needs to get his arse into gear and concentrate his efforts on things like the NHS instead of pushing for things that arent in the manifesto. When people are in hospital they need and deserve the care they needed which is priority, people are dying needlessly in hospitals because the staff are so stretched and there aren't enough nurses to cope which isnt their fault, perhaps fewer managers and more staff on the wards would help. If David Cameron hopes to be re-elected in the next election he needs to wake up and get in the real world where people are dying unecessarily
cliffwalker
says...
11:27am Mon 4 Mar 13
arthur dalyrimple wrote:What a stupid remark which could only be made by a mindless idiot.
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
arthur dalyrimple
says...
11:40am Mon 4 Mar 13
cliffwalker wrote:Article this weekend ,1200 starved to death in this damnable NHS ,i think criminal is the right word to use , just hope you are not their next corpse.
arthur dalyrimple wrote:What a stupid remark which could only be made by a mindless idiot.
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
HillsidePaul
says...
1:20pm Mon 4 Mar 13
coolnesscoolness wrote:It is clear from the report that this man died because of incompetence by some or all of those caring for him.
Could it because the millions of immigrants that have poured in are getting free NHs care
Sign this petition to restrict Bulgarian and Romanians from entering the UK:
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/41492
Over 71,000 signed
And you use it as an excuse to pretend that it is due to "millions of immigrants that have poured in".
Using a man's death to spread lies and create fear and racism.
What a piece of S**T you are.
chunky_lover
says...
1:43pm Mon 4 Mar 13
flux capacitor.
Pikey-Biker
says...
2:28pm Mon 4 Mar 13
arthur dalyrimple wrote:And of course you can do better than everyone else
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
Inform Al
says...
2:34pm Mon 4 Mar 13
arthur dalyrimple wrote:Oh dear, I had noit thought of myself as a moron, you inbred bigotted cretin.
Eric_Cartman wrote:takes one to know one .
arthur dalyrimple wrote:You are a moron
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
arthur dalyrimple
says...
3:00pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Inform Al wrote:ha ha sticks and stones , the truth hurts you brainwashed dinlo.
arthur dalyrimple wrote:Oh dear, I had noit thought of myself as a moron, you inbred bigotted cretin.
Eric_Cartman wrote:takes one to know one .
arthur dalyrimple wrote:You are a moron
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
southy
says...
3:06pm Mon 4 Mar 13
HillsidePaul wrote:Thats insulting s**t don't you think.
coolnesscoolness wrote:It is clear from the report that this man died because of incompetence by some or all of those caring for him.
Could it because the millions of immigrants that have poured in are getting free NHs care
Sign this petition to restrict Bulgarian and Romanians from entering the UK:
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/41492
Over 71,000 signed
And you use it as an excuse to pretend that it is due to "millions of immigrants that have poured in".
Using a man's death to spread lies and create fear and racism.
What a piece of S**T you are.
The Truth is that there are more leaving the counctry than there is coming in the NOS relest figures last week or 2
freefinker
says...
5:36pm Mon 4 Mar 13
southy wrote:. no, wrong again.
HillsidePaul wrote:Thats insulting s**t don't you think.
coolnesscoolness wrote:It is clear from the report that this man died because of incompetence by some or all of those caring for him.
Could it because the millions of immigrants that have poured in are getting free NHs care
Sign this petition to restrict Bulgarian and Romanians from entering the UK:
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/41492
Over 71,000 signed
And you use it as an excuse to pretend that it is due to "millions of immigrants that have poured in".
Using a man's death to spread lies and create fear and racism.
What a piece of S**T you are.
The Truth is that there are more leaving the counctry than there is coming in the NOS relest figures last week or 2
Overall, the level of immigration to Britain fell from 589,000 to 515,000 over the year to June 2012, while emigration from Britain remained broadly stable with a rise of only 10,000 to 352,000 going to live abroad for more than 12 months.
The difference between the level of immigration at 515,000 and emigration at 352,000 gives the net migration figure of 163,000.
They ARE the very latest statistics released by the Office for National Statistics at the end of February.
cantthinkofone
says...
6:03pm Mon 4 Mar 13
arthur dalyrimple wrote:Seriously. Read that back to yourselves.
Inform Al wrote:ha ha sticks and stones , the truth hurts you brainwashed dinlo.
arthur dalyrimple wrote:Oh dear, I had noit thought of myself as a moron, you inbred bigotted cretin.
Eric_Cartman wrote:takes one to know one .
arthur dalyrimple wrote:You are a moron
There is but one sign needs to be erected at that death factory ,DANGER , CRIMINALS AT WORK.
Now ask if it was written by grown-ups.
Terrifying to know that at least some of you have children. :-(
cantthinkofone
says...
6:24pm Mon 4 Mar 13
freefinker wrote:Our local hospital has just boosted the immigration figures, by taking on a large number of nurses from both inside and outside of the EU.
southy wrote:. no, wrong again.
HillsidePaul wrote:Thats insulting s**t don't you think.
coolnesscoolness wrote:It is clear from the report that this man died because of incompetence by some or all of those caring for him.
Could it because the millions of immigrants that have poured in are getting free NHs care
Sign this petition to restrict Bulgarian and Romanians from entering the UK:
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/41492
Over 71,000 signed
And you use it as an excuse to pretend that it is due to "millions of immigrants that have poured in".
Using a man's death to spread lies and create fear and racism.
What a piece of S**T you are.
The Truth is that there are more leaving the counctry than there is coming in the NOS relest figures last week or 2
Overall, the level of immigration to Britain fell from 589,000 to 515,000 over the year to June 2012, while emigration from Britain remained broadly stable with a rise of only 10,000 to 352,000 going to live abroad for more than 12 months.
The difference between the level of immigration at 515,000 and emigration at 352,000 gives the net migration figure of 163,000.
They ARE the very latest statistics released by the Office for National Statistics at the end of February.
There simply aren't enough indigenous workers prepared to do these difficult, underpaid, *vital* jobs.
Those that are so opposed to immigration are welcome to learn how to put catheters into people's privates and change their bed-pans, so as to make it less necessary.
sotonbev
says...
6:26pm Mon 4 Mar 13
There is simply not enough care and concern for well being in our Hospitals, I mean who can we trust these days, if I had a loved one in hospital I wouldn't leave their side. It wouldn't matter how many nurses or doctors are on the wards but what does matter is if they really do care and do their jobs properly. I know not all staff are bad but we need to weed the ones who are out!.
Donald2000
says...
7:20pm Mon 4 Mar 13
I am afraid that I think there is some substance in what the report states about this gentleman. Five years ago I was discharged from Southampton University Hospital after having a hernia repair; the wound was swollen up (haematoma). Despite this I was discharged; I went to the GP and he prescribed an antibiotic and said that it was an infection. Eight days later I was back in AAU having the haematoma drained and the hernia repair done again. This time I was taken in by ambulance. Three days after that the self same doctor came on the ward rounds and tried to discharge me again; this time he got one of the ward sisters to assist in bullying me out of the hospital. It did not work and the staff nurse there just told me to get back into bed. So not only did their negligence cause me to nearly die but they repeated the behaviour all over again in AAU.
There needs to be a serious enquiry into the incident that the Echo has reported on because to be frank, this state of affairs is all too common. People are beginning to spot that this hospital is now actively engaged in trying to kill patients.
There needs to be a serious enquiry into the incident that the Echo has reported on because to be frank, this state of affairs is all too common. People are beginning to spot that this hospital is now actively engaged in trying to kill patients.
freefinker
says...
7:31pm Mon 4 Mar 13
cantthinkofone wrote:.. yep, you're quite right. On the whole net immigration has been beneficial to this country; over millennia, centuries, decades and years.
freefinker wrote:Our local hospital has just boosted the immigration figures, by taking on a large number of nurses from both inside and outside of the EU.
southy wrote:. no, wrong again.
HillsidePaul wrote:Thats insulting s**t don't you think.
coolnesscoolness wrote:It is clear from the report that this man died because of incompetence by some or all of those caring for him.
Could it because the millions of immigrants that have poured in are getting free NHs care
Sign this petition to restrict Bulgarian and Romanians from entering the UK:
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/41492
Over 71,000 signed
And you use it as an excuse to pretend that it is due to "millions of immigrants that have poured in".
Using a man's death to spread lies and create fear and racism.
What a piece of S**T you are.
The Truth is that there are more leaving the counctry than there is coming in the NOS relest figures last week or 2
Overall, the level of immigration to Britain fell from 589,000 to 515,000 over the year to June 2012, while emigration from Britain remained broadly stable with a rise of only 10,000 to 352,000 going to live abroad for more than 12 months.
The difference between the level of immigration at 515,000 and emigration at 352,000 gives the net migration figure of 163,000.
They ARE the very latest statistics released by the Office for National Statistics at the end of February.
There simply aren't enough indigenous workers prepared to do these difficult, underpaid, *vital* jobs.
Those that are so opposed to immigration are welcome to learn how to put catheters into people's privates and change their bed-pans, so as to make it less necessary.
All I was doing, however, was yet again pointing out another southy inaccurate post. Indeed, the statistics did show a drop in net immigration from 2011 to 2012, but that is not the same as what southy said; i.e. “there are more leaving the counctry than there is coming in”. There ARE, in fact, still more arriving than leaving.
His inability to understand even the simplest of statistics, or even to carry out a very easy check of the ONS website before posting, is typical and epitomizes why he should never be elected to any position of responsibility.
arthur dalyrimple
says...
7:33pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:Here , here ,their paid trolls are no longer winning the propoganda war ,that hospital ,i use the term very loosely has been a disgrace for many years.
I am afraid that I think there is some substance in what the report states about this gentleman. Five years ago I was discharged from Southampton University Hospital after having a hernia repair; the wound was swollen up (haematoma). Despite this I was discharged; I went to the GP and he prescribed an antibiotic and said that it was an infection. Eight days later I was back in AAU having the haematoma drained and the hernia repair done again. This time I was taken in by ambulance. Three days after that the self same doctor came on the ward rounds and tried to discharge me again; this time he got one of the ward sisters to assist in bullying me out of the hospital. It did not work and the staff nurse there just told me to get back into bed. So not only did their negligence cause me to nearly die but they repeated the behaviour all over again in AAU.
There needs to be a serious enquiry into the incident that the Echo has reported on because to be frank, this state of affairs is all too common. People are beginning to spot that this hospital is now actively engaged in trying to kill patients.
Facewagon
says...
7:39pm Mon 4 Mar 13
arthur dalyrimple wrote:Is there no end to your paranoia? So now anyone who disagrees with you is being paid by the hospital to do so?
Donald2000 wrote:Here , here ,their paid trolls are no longer winning the propoganda war ,that hospital ,i use the term very loosely has been a disgrace for many years.
I am afraid that I think there is some substance in what the report states about this gentleman. Five years ago I was discharged from Southampton University Hospital after having a hernia repair; the wound was swollen up (haematoma). Despite this I was discharged; I went to the GP and he prescribed an antibiotic and said that it was an infection. Eight days later I was back in AAU having the haematoma drained and the hernia repair done again. This time I was taken in by ambulance. Three days after that the self same doctor came on the ward rounds and tried to discharge me again; this time he got one of the ward sisters to assist in bullying me out of the hospital. It did not work and the staff nurse there just told me to get back into bed. So not only did their negligence cause me to nearly die but they repeated the behaviour all over again in AAU.
There needs to be a serious enquiry into the incident that the Echo has reported on because to be frank, this state of affairs is all too common. People are beginning to spot that this hospital is now actively engaged in trying to kill patients.
Pikey-Biker
says...
7:56pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:Donald, I am sad that you have had a very bad experience and the care was not up to what is to be expected from a very well funded institution like the NHS.
I am afraid that I think there is some substance in what the report states about this gentleman. Five years ago I was discharged from Southampton University Hospital after having a hernia repair; the wound was swollen up (haematoma). Despite this I was discharged; I went to the GP and he prescribed an antibiotic and said that it was an infection. Eight days later I was back in AAU having the haematoma drained and the hernia repair done again. This time I was taken in by ambulance. Three days after that the self same doctor came on the ward rounds and tried to discharge me again; this time he got one of the ward sisters to assist in bullying me out of the hospital. It did not work and the staff nurse there just told me to get back into bed. So not only did their negligence cause me to nearly die but they repeated the behaviour all over again in AAU. There needs to be a serious enquiry into the incident that the Echo has reported on because to be frank, this state of affairs is all too common. People are beginning to spot that this hospital is now actively engaged in trying to kill patients.
However your last sentence was plain wrong and sick
Dresnez
says...
8:00pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Linesman wrote:It needs people to do their job properly.
It needs an All-Party approach to the NHS, with an increase in NI contributions.
Each party goes into an election promising to cut taxes for at least one section of society, but we all know that a cut in taxes means a cut in services.
The NHS is too important to be starved of cash and resources. We only have one life, and it is most precious, and should be treated as such.
If Cameron wants to regain some shred of popularity, then he has to act on his promise that the NHS was safe in his hands, and start working with the other parties to get the NHS back to the ideal that Nye Bevan had when it was created.
Catalogue of errors because of a lack of attention to detail and a lack of care. No room for a lackadaisical work ethic in medicine.
I really do appreciate they work very long hours and that the work can be emotionally draining and that they are understaffed and underfunded. However everyone who dealt with Mr Adams in his hour if need seems to have been to say the least sloppy.
We don't want the NHS privatised. Margaret Thatcher's Market Forces and targets to get value for money and drive up standards is a failed experiment. The NHS is being privatised via the back door. This will see the NHS costing us even more for a worse service. We need to get back to how things were in the 1960s in the NHS.
Market Forces has seen targets get priority over care and it hasn't saved any money, indeed it has haemorrhaged funds at an alarming rate.
Market forces have corrupted the banks and has driven up energy costs through cartels. It has done nothing for the railways - taxpayers stand the loss and the profits are privatised.
I just emailed my MP to stop back door privatisation of our NHS.
If you agree with me then can you email them too? It just takes two minutes by clicking here:
https://secure.38deg
rees.org.uk/nhs-brok
en-promises
cantthinkofone
says...
8:03pm Mon 4 Mar 13
freefinker wrote:Oh I know freefinker. I'm pretty sure you're not in the BNP/UKIP/bigot brigade...! I was using your post as a segue is all.
cantthinkofone wrote:.. yep, you're quite right. On the whole net immigration has been beneficial to this country; over millennia, centuries, decades and years.
freefinker wrote:Our local hospital has just boosted the immigration figures, by taking on a large number of nurses from both inside and outside of the EU.
southy wrote:. no, wrong again.
HillsidePaul wrote:Thats insulting s**t don't you think.
coolnesscoolness wrote:It is clear from the report that this man died because of incompetence by some or all of those caring for him.
Could it because the millions of immigrants that have poured in are getting free NHs care
Sign this petition to restrict Bulgarian and Romanians from entering the UK:
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/41492
Over 71,000 signed
And you use it as an excuse to pretend that it is due to "millions of immigrants that have poured in".
Using a man's death to spread lies and create fear and racism.
What a piece of S**T you are.
The Truth is that there are more leaving the counctry than there is coming in the NOS relest figures last week or 2
Overall, the level of immigration to Britain fell from 589,000 to 515,000 over the year to June 2012, while emigration from Britain remained broadly stable with a rise of only 10,000 to 352,000 going to live abroad for more than 12 months.
The difference between the level of immigration at 515,000 and emigration at 352,000 gives the net migration figure of 163,000.
They ARE the very latest statistics released by the Office for National Statistics at the end of February.
There simply aren't enough indigenous workers prepared to do these difficult, underpaid, *vital* jobs.
Those that are so opposed to immigration are welcome to learn how to put catheters into people's privates and change their bed-pans, so as to make it less necessary.
All I was doing, however, was yet again pointing out another southy inaccurate post. Indeed, the statistics did show a drop in net immigration from 2011 to 2012, but that is not the same as what southy said; i.e. “there are more leaving the counctry than there is coming in”. There ARE, in fact, still more arriving than leaving.
His inability to understand even the simplest of statistics, or even to carry out a very easy check of the ONS website before posting, is typical and epitomizes why he should never be elected to any position of responsibility.
cantthinkofone
says...
8:11pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:Stretched resources, long hours, too few staff, poor pay (for nurses) and the resulting effect on morale has consequences. The NHS should never be happy, and should never stop trying to improve.
I am afraid that I think there is some substance in what the report states about this gentleman. Five years ago I was discharged from Southampton University Hospital after having a hernia repair; the wound was swollen up (haematoma). Despite this I was discharged; I went to the GP and he prescribed an antibiotic and said that it was an infection. Eight days later I was back in AAU having the haematoma drained and the hernia repair done again. This time I was taken in by ambulance. Three days after that the self same doctor came on the ward rounds and tried to discharge me again; this time he got one of the ward sisters to assist in bullying me out of the hospital. It did not work and the staff nurse there just told me to get back into bed. So not only did their negligence cause me to nearly die but they repeated the behaviour all over again in AAU.
There needs to be a serious enquiry into the incident that the Echo has reported on because to be frank, this state of affairs is all too common. People are beginning to spot that this hospital is now actively engaged in trying to kill patients.
But your last sentence is a disgusting insult to the 8,000 people at the General that put their all into trying to heal the sick. If that's really how you feel, it paints you as a thoroughly vile individual, and no better than paranoid lunatics like arthur dalyrimple.
I'd love to know what the likes of you and arthur do to earn your wages. For your consciences' sakes, I hope it puts as much back in to society as the NHS workers that you so willingly libel.
arthur dalyrimple
says...
8:42pm Mon 4 Mar 13
cantthinkofone wrote:well ,i suspect those knights in shining armour will spend a lot of time in the courts with that libel word , since the papers have been full of disgusting goings on in these places , still ,none so blind that can,t see.
Donald2000 wrote:Stretched resources, long hours, too few staff, poor pay (for nurses) and the resulting effect on morale has consequences. The NHS should never be happy, and should never stop trying to improve.
I am afraid that I think there is some substance in what the report states about this gentleman. Five years ago I was discharged from Southampton University Hospital after having a hernia repair; the wound was swollen up (haematoma). Despite this I was discharged; I went to the GP and he prescribed an antibiotic and said that it was an infection. Eight days later I was back in AAU having the haematoma drained and the hernia repair done again. This time I was taken in by ambulance. Three days after that the self same doctor came on the ward rounds and tried to discharge me again; this time he got one of the ward sisters to assist in bullying me out of the hospital. It did not work and the staff nurse there just told me to get back into bed. So not only did their negligence cause me to nearly die but they repeated the behaviour all over again in AAU.
There needs to be a serious enquiry into the incident that the Echo has reported on because to be frank, this state of affairs is all too common. People are beginning to spot that this hospital is now actively engaged in trying to kill patients.
But your last sentence is a disgusting insult to the 8,000 people at the General that put their all into trying to heal the sick. If that's really how you feel, it paints you as a thoroughly vile individual, and no better than paranoid lunatics like arthur dalyrimple.
I'd love to know what the likes of you and arthur do to earn your wages. For your consciences' sakes, I hope it puts as much back in to society as the NHS workers that you so willingly libel.
Huffter
says...
8:56pm Mon 4 Mar 13
A 20 a day smoker pays about £2,000 a year in tax - how about the government uses some of this on the NHS?
MiddleOfRoad
says...
10:02pm Mon 4 Mar 13
A systemic failure that directly resulted in the death of this poor individual. At the very least this matter should be investigated from a criminal perspective to see if it meets the proofs of criminal negligence or manslaughter.
It seems that only by adopting this hard approach to on-going un-necessary deaths in hospital care will the NHS system be dragged screaming and struggling into the 1st world expectations of optimal health care and Duty of Care.
Independent of any criminal investigation, there appears to be an open and shut civil case of extreme negligence.
This seems to be a clear case of a general systems failure aided and abetted by on-the-ground mistakes, lack of awareness, lack of understanding etc by specific individuals.
Thus I don't think just those on-the-ground should carry the entire can as the systems failure, seems to have substantially facilitated s the on-the-ground failures. I hope that any criminal investigation or any other detailed investigation considers the contributory roles of administrators, managers and politicians who ultimately establish the budgets, policy, planning and attitudes of the NHS.
It seems that only by adopting this hard approach to on-going un-necessary deaths in hospital care will the NHS system be dragged screaming and struggling into the 1st world expectations of optimal health care and Duty of Care.
Independent of any criminal investigation, there appears to be an open and shut civil case of extreme negligence.
This seems to be a clear case of a general systems failure aided and abetted by on-the-ground mistakes, lack of awareness, lack of understanding etc by specific individuals.
Thus I don't think just those on-the-ground should carry the entire can as the systems failure, seems to have substantially facilitated s the on-the-ground failures. I hope that any criminal investigation or any other detailed investigation considers the contributory roles of administrators, managers and politicians who ultimately establish the budgets, policy, planning and attitudes of the NHS.
Donald2000
says...
10:25pm Mon 4 Mar 13
MiddleOfRoad wrote:That's an extremely sensible and wise posting. Well done. Let's face it, that could have been me, if I had not been utterly insistent on being readmitted to hospital. Yet I have been told (admittedly by imbeciles) on this column that trying to report preventing my own death (and possibly those of others in the future) is potentially libellous and that I should be ashamed of myself. Well I am not ashamed of myself; we ought to be exposing bad practice within the NHS to try and save lives. What price life as opposed to talking complete carp about someone's libel. Some people on here really need to grow up.
A systemic failure that directly resulted in the death of this poor individual. At the very least this matter should be investigated from a criminal perspective to see if it meets the proofs of criminal negligence or manslaughter.
It seems that only by adopting this hard approach to on-going un-necessary deaths in hospital care will the NHS system be dragged screaming and struggling into the 1st world expectations of optimal health care and Duty of Care.
Independent of any criminal investigation, there appears to be an open and shut civil case of extreme negligence.
This seems to be a clear case of a general systems failure aided and abetted by on-the-ground mistakes, lack of awareness, lack of understanding etc by specific individuals.
Thus I don't think just those on-the-ground should carry the entire can as the systems failure, seems to have substantially facilitated s the on-the-ground failures. I hope that any criminal investigation or any other detailed investigation considers the contributory roles of administrators, managers and politicians who ultimately establish the budgets, policy, planning and attitudes of the NHS.
Facewagon
says...
10:29pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:I don't think people are referring to your attempt to report the hideous situation you found yourself in, but rather your assertion that the hospital is 'actively engaged in trying to kill people'. Do you seriously think the people behind your situation were really trying to murder you?
MiddleOfRoad wrote:That's an extremely sensible and wise posting. Well done. Let's face it, that could have been me, if I had not been utterly insistent on being readmitted to hospital. Yet I have been told (admittedly by imbeciles) on this column that trying to report preventing my own death (and possibly those of others in the future) is potentially libellous and that I should be ashamed of myself. Well I am not ashamed of myself; we ought to be exposing bad practice within the NHS to try and save lives. What price life as opposed to talking complete carp about someone's libel. Some people on here really need to grow up.
A systemic failure that directly resulted in the death of this poor individual. At the very least this matter should be investigated from a criminal perspective to see if it meets the proofs of criminal negligence or manslaughter.
It seems that only by adopting this hard approach to on-going un-necessary deaths in hospital care will the NHS system be dragged screaming and struggling into the 1st world expectations of optimal health care and Duty of Care.
Independent of any criminal investigation, there appears to be an open and shut civil case of extreme negligence.
This seems to be a clear case of a general systems failure aided and abetted by on-the-ground mistakes, lack of awareness, lack of understanding etc by specific individuals.
Thus I don't think just those on-the-ground should carry the entire can as the systems failure, seems to have substantially facilitated s the on-the-ground failures. I hope that any criminal investigation or any other detailed investigation considers the contributory roles of administrators, managers and politicians who ultimately establish the budgets, policy, planning and attitudes of the NHS.
Donald2000
says...
10:35pm Mon 4 Mar 13
@Facewagon. You obviously have not read the Shipman case otherwise you would not be making such assertions. The man appeared at his garden gate and spoke to the press as if butter would not melt in his mouth. Yet that particular individual had killed many hundreds of people.
So what I am saying is, there is precedent for what I am saying and it is applicable because of the numbers of reports we are getting, ie Liverpool Care Pathway, etc, etc, depriving people of fluids, that kind of thing. Yet people are still walking around as if these cases don't exist? You need to start wondering about what's going on. Judge for yourself.
So what I am saying is, there is precedent for what I am saying and it is applicable because of the numbers of reports we are getting, ie Liverpool Care Pathway, etc, etc, depriving people of fluids, that kind of thing. Yet people are still walking around as if these cases don't exist? You need to start wondering about what's going on. Judge for yourself.
cantthinkofone
says...
10:36pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Facewagon wrote:Indeed.
Donald2000 wrote:I don't think people are referring to your attempt to report the hideous situation you found yourself in, but rather your assertion that the hospital is 'actively engaged in trying to kill people'. Do you seriously think the people behind your situation were really trying to murder you?
MiddleOfRoad wrote:That's an extremely sensible and wise posting. Well done. Let's face it, that could have been me, if I had not been utterly insistent on being readmitted to hospital. Yet I have been told (admittedly by imbeciles) on this column that trying to report preventing my own death (and possibly those of others in the future) is potentially libellous and that I should be ashamed of myself. Well I am not ashamed of myself; we ought to be exposing bad practice within the NHS to try and save lives. What price life as opposed to talking complete carp about someone's libel. Some people on here really need to grow up.
A systemic failure that directly resulted in the death of this poor individual. At the very least this matter should be investigated from a criminal perspective to see if it meets the proofs of criminal negligence or manslaughter.
It seems that only by adopting this hard approach to on-going un-necessary deaths in hospital care will the NHS system be dragged screaming and struggling into the 1st world expectations of optimal health care and Duty of Care.
Independent of any criminal investigation, there appears to be an open and shut civil case of extreme negligence.
This seems to be a clear case of a general systems failure aided and abetted by on-the-ground mistakes, lack of awareness, lack of understanding etc by specific individuals.
Thus I don't think just those on-the-ground should carry the entire can as the systems failure, seems to have substantially facilitated s the on-the-ground failures. I hope that any criminal investigation or any other detailed investigation considers the contributory roles of administrators, managers and politicians who ultimately establish the budgets, policy, planning and attitudes of the NHS.
The 'grow up' finale is staggering in its irony.
Inform Al
says...
10:40pm Mon 4 Mar 13
cantthinkofone wrote:To associate UKIP with BNP shows a total ignorance of the facts. BNP is racist whilst UKIP is realist.
freefinker wrote:Oh I know freefinker. I'm pretty sure you're not in the BNP/UKIP/bigot brigade...! I was using your post as a segue is all.
cantthinkofone wrote:.. yep, you're quite right. On the whole net immigration has been beneficial to this country; over millennia, centuries, decades and years.
freefinker wrote:Our local hospital has just boosted the immigration figures, by taking on a large number of nurses from both inside and outside of the EU.
southy wrote:. no, wrong again.
HillsidePaul wrote:Thats insulting s**t don't you think.
coolnesscoolness wrote:It is clear from the report that this man died because of incompetence by some or all of those caring for him.
Could it because the millions of immigrants that have poured in are getting free NHs care
Sign this petition to restrict Bulgarian and Romanians from entering the UK:
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/41492
Over 71,000 signed
And you use it as an excuse to pretend that it is due to "millions of immigrants that have poured in".
Using a man's death to spread lies and create fear and racism.
What a piece of S**T you are.
The Truth is that there are more leaving the counctry than there is coming in the NOS relest figures last week or 2
Overall, the level of immigration to Britain fell from 589,000 to 515,000 over the year to June 2012, while emigration from Britain remained broadly stable with a rise of only 10,000 to 352,000 going to live abroad for more than 12 months.
The difference between the level of immigration at 515,000 and emigration at 352,000 gives the net migration figure of 163,000.
They ARE the very latest statistics released by the Office for National Statistics at the end of February.
There simply aren't enough indigenous workers prepared to do these difficult, underpaid, *vital* jobs.
Those that are so opposed to immigration are welcome to learn how to put catheters into people's privates and change their bed-pans, so as to make it less necessary.
All I was doing, however, was yet again pointing out another southy inaccurate post. Indeed, the statistics did show a drop in net immigration from 2011 to 2012, but that is not the same as what southy said; i.e. “there are more leaving the counctry than there is coming in”. There ARE, in fact, still more arriving than leaving.
His inability to understand even the simplest of statistics, or even to carry out a very easy check of the ONS website before posting, is typical and epitomizes why he should never be elected to any position of responsibility.
Donald2000
says...
10:46pm Mon 4 Mar 13
cantthinkofone wrote:It's not staggering; it's just that you need a level of maturity to accept the truth of the matter, which many correspondents on this column just have not got, otherwise they would not go screaming to what they think is the law behind the matter, which is cobblers because telling the truth is a defence to "libel". Also, the self righteous tone behind many of the individuals comments on here shows me that as yet, people cannot accept the truth and are running away with the idea that hospitals will not discharge people so that they go home and die. So what do you call discharging someone with a large lump in their groin then, care in the community? Then trying to discharge them again after a serious operation?
Facewagon wrote:Indeed.
Donald2000 wrote:I don't think people are referring to your attempt to report the hideous situation you found yourself in, but rather your assertion that the hospital is 'actively engaged in trying to kill people'. Do you seriously think the people behind your situation were really trying to murder you?
MiddleOfRoad wrote:That's an extremely sensible and wise posting. Well done. Let's face it, that could have been me, if I had not been utterly insistent on being readmitted to hospital. Yet I have been told (admittedly by imbeciles) on this column that trying to report preventing my own death (and possibly those of others in the future) is potentially libellous and that I should be ashamed of myself. Well I am not ashamed of myself; we ought to be exposing bad practice within the NHS to try and save lives. What price life as opposed to talking complete carp about someone's libel. Some people on here really need to grow up.
A systemic failure that directly resulted in the death of this poor individual. At the very least this matter should be investigated from a criminal perspective to see if it meets the proofs of criminal negligence or manslaughter.
It seems that only by adopting this hard approach to on-going un-necessary deaths in hospital care will the NHS system be dragged screaming and struggling into the 1st world expectations of optimal health care and Duty of Care.
Independent of any criminal investigation, there appears to be an open and shut civil case of extreme negligence.
This seems to be a clear case of a general systems failure aided and abetted by on-the-ground mistakes, lack of awareness, lack of understanding etc by specific individuals.
Thus I don't think just those on-the-ground should carry the entire can as the systems failure, seems to have substantially facilitated s the on-the-ground failures. I hope that any criminal investigation or any other detailed investigation considers the contributory roles of administrators, managers and politicians who ultimately establish the budgets, policy, planning and attitudes of the NHS.
The 'grow up' finale is staggering in its irony.
Try not to live in Noddy land - you will get on far better.
Pikey-Biker
says...
11:02pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:indeed
MiddleOfRoad wrote: A systemic failure that directly resulted in the death of this poor individual. At the very least this matter should be investigated from a criminal perspective to see if it meets the proofs of criminal negligence or manslaughter. It seems that only by adopting this hard approach to on-going un-necessary deaths in hospital care will the NHS system be dragged screaming and struggling into the 1st world expectations of optimal health care and Duty of Care. Independent of any criminal investigation, there appears to be an open and shut civil case of extreme negligence. This seems to be a clear case of a general systems failure aided and abetted by on-the-ground mistakes, lack of awareness, lack of understanding etc by specific individuals. Thus I don't think just those on-the-ground should carry the entire can as the systems failure, seems to have substantially facilitated s the on-the-ground failures. I hope that any criminal investigation or any other detailed investigation considers the contributory roles of administrators, managers and politicians who ultimately establish the budgets, policy, planning and attitudes of the NHS.That's an extremely sensible and wise posting. Well done. Let's face it, that could have been me, if I had not been utterly insistent on being readmitted to hospital. Yet I have been told (admittedly by imbeciles) on this column that trying to report preventing my own death (and possibly those of others in the future) is potentially libellous and that I should be ashamed of myself. Well I am not ashamed of myself; we ought to be exposing bad practice within the NHS to try and save lives. What price life as opposed to talking complete carp about someone's libel. Some people on here really need to grow up.
Donald2000
says...
11:23pm Mon 4 Mar 13
@****-biker.
Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body.
The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters.
Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits.
God save us against ignorance.
Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body.
The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters.
Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits.
God save us against ignorance.
Pikey-Biker
says...
7:56am Tue 5 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:Donald
@****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.
There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post.
On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
Donald2000
says...
9:03am Tue 5 Mar 13
****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.
Donald2000 wrote:Donald
@****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.
There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post.
On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
Pikey-Biker
says...
10:01am Tue 5 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:My comments may not agree with yours but they are not devoid of reality, if you think that you truly are an ignorant person. The NHS has made mistakes in the past and probably make more in the future but it will learn from them.
****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.Donald2000 wrote: @****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.Donald There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post. On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
I have commented many times on the Liverpool Care Pathway and some of the ridiculous emotional ramblings by certain people in the past 3 months, to see you compare that with Doctor Shipman who was a cold blooded killer is ridiculous comment, but quite common amongst the anti Liverpool Care pathway supporters
Oh and Donald, I certainly don’t want your pity
tootle
says...
10:05am Tue 5 Mar 13
There are good and bad withing the NHS, often in the same person. When my son presented with all the symptoms of a brain tumour the NHS re-acted immediately and he was clear. However the same dept spent 11 years trying(and not very hard) to find out what was wrong with him, despite(hindsight is wonderful) him displaying classic early symptoms of his eventual diagnosis. 11 years - for his condition is probably not unacceptable but being told(as i was on one occasion) that there was nothing wrong with him when it was obvious there was is unacceptable. Some wards are great, others are not, some staff are great, others are not. The answer to NHS funding is to cut what they treat for free(and boy is that contentious), make health care free at point of delivery only for genuine emergencies and those entitled and make health tourists pay up front and claim back off their own Governments as we frequently have to do abroad. That'd be a start. Address the UK nurses shortage by training a second tier of carer/nurses on the job which would open up the world of nursing to those capable of caring, changing beds, holding hands, talking to patients etc but who are not capable of doing a nursing degree.
Donald2000
says...
10:59am Tue 5 Mar 13
****-Biker wrote:No, you would like to think I am an ignorant person because it suits your purposes. Today in Parliament, the leader of the NHS is being interviewed. The figures for Staffs HA are 1200 needless deaths. Yet you still think people are being emotional. To be emotional is part of life; it shows you are alive. We don't want cold reason within this scenario - cold reason is the kind of thing which makes bankers destroy this society. Let's all be British and stiff upper lip.
Donald2000 wrote:My comments may not agree with yours but they are not devoid of reality, if you think that you truly are an ignorant person. The NHS has made mistakes in the past and probably make more in the future but it will learn from them.
****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.Donald2000 wrote: @****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.Donald There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post. On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
I have commented many times on the Liverpool Care Pathway and some of the ridiculous emotional ramblings by certain people in the past 3 months, to see you compare that with Doctor Shipman who was a cold blooded killer is ridiculous comment, but quite common amongst the anti Liverpool Care pathway supporters
Oh and Donald, I certainly don’t want your pity
I am proud of the fact that I have a strong reaction to my own plight and the plight of others who have bad and criminal treatment within the NHS because I am interested in people's right to live. It's cold hearted and cynical reasoning that leads to people dying within the NHS and there's too much of this and not enough warmth and emotion. I make no apology for what I am and for wanting people to live. You reason about people's unnecessary deaths if you want to. I want people to live and that means not sending people home with half their guts hanging out or other criminal failures to care for people.
arthur dalyrimple
says...
12:05pm Tue 5 Mar 13
Check out the Telegraph news site today , the new National Death Service guidelines on life termination , customers can be coded up for termination from a and e onwards , a condition as common as asthma can lead to end of life termination code , is that too emotional?
Pikey-Biker
says...
12:15pm Tue 5 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:When I have seen emotive comments like ones you made earlier for example “now actively engaged in trying to kill patients” in my opinion invalidates your view as it’s simply not true, if you become too emotional your arguments loose focus. I will not dispute the failings of the NHS have made in the past but I believe NHS will learn from them and improve but in order to do so you need cool heads not hot heads like yours.
****-Biker wrote:No, you would like to think I am an ignorant person because it suits your purposes. Today in Parliament, the leader of the NHS is being interviewed. The figures for Staffs HA are 1200 needless deaths. Yet you still think people are being emotional. To be emotional is part of life; it shows you are alive. We don't want cold reason within this scenario - cold reason is the kind of thing which makes bankers destroy this society. Let's all be British and stiff upper lip. I am proud of the fact that I have a strong reaction to my own plight and the plight of others who have bad and criminal treatment within the NHS because I am interested in people's right to live. It's cold hearted and cynical reasoning that leads to people dying within the NHS and there's too much of this and not enough warmth and emotion. I make no apology for what I am and for wanting people to live. You reason about people's unnecessary deaths if you want to. I want people to live and that means not sending people home with half their guts hanging out or other criminal failures to care for people.Donald2000 wrote:My comments may not agree with yours but they are not devoid of reality, if you think that you truly are an ignorant person. The NHS has made mistakes in the past and probably make more in the future but it will learn from them. I have commented many times on the Liverpool Care Pathway and some of the ridiculous emotional ramblings by certain people in the past 3 months, to see you compare that with Doctor Shipman who was a cold blooded killer is ridiculous comment, but quite common amongst the anti Liverpool Care pathway supporters Oh and Donald, I certainly don’t want your pity****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.Donald2000 wrote: @****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.Donald There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post. On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
On the subject of the appalling care given by Stafford Hospital which I cannot defend one needless death is bad enough but you stated that there were 1200 needless deaths but that is not necessarily true.
Donald2000
says...
1:25pm Tue 5 Mar 13
****-Biker wrote:You are arguing in a vacumn. You need to do the reading on the subject; the press and media today are full of it. On Newsnight yesterday the Times headlines were shown; they have indicated 1200 needless deaths. Perhaps you would be better off telling the relatives that their relatives have not died needlessly and that it is all really a blag. But I think you will get a very funny response to what you are saying.
Donald2000 wrote:When I have seen emotive comments like ones you made earlier for example “now actively engaged in trying to kill patients” in my opinion invalidates your view as it’s simply not true, if you become too emotional your arguments loose focus. I will not dispute the failings of the NHS have made in the past but I believe NHS will learn from them and improve but in order to do so you need cool heads not hot heads like yours.
****-Biker wrote:No, you would like to think I am an ignorant person because it suits your purposes. Today in Parliament, the leader of the NHS is being interviewed. The figures for Staffs HA are 1200 needless deaths. Yet you still think people are being emotional. To be emotional is part of life; it shows you are alive. We don't want cold reason within this scenario - cold reason is the kind of thing which makes bankers destroy this society. Let's all be British and stiff upper lip. I am proud of the fact that I have a strong reaction to my own plight and the plight of others who have bad and criminal treatment within the NHS because I am interested in people's right to live. It's cold hearted and cynical reasoning that leads to people dying within the NHS and there's too much of this and not enough warmth and emotion. I make no apology for what I am and for wanting people to live. You reason about people's unnecessary deaths if you want to. I want people to live and that means not sending people home with half their guts hanging out or other criminal failures to care for people.Donald2000 wrote:My comments may not agree with yours but they are not devoid of reality, if you think that you truly are an ignorant person. The NHS has made mistakes in the past and probably make more in the future but it will learn from them. I have commented many times on the Liverpool Care Pathway and some of the ridiculous emotional ramblings by certain people in the past 3 months, to see you compare that with Doctor Shipman who was a cold blooded killer is ridiculous comment, but quite common amongst the anti Liverpool Care pathway supporters Oh and Donald, I certainly don’t want your pity****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.Donald2000 wrote: @****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.Donald There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post. On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
On the subject of the appalling care given by Stafford Hospital which I cannot defend one needless death is bad enough but you stated that there were 1200 needless deaths but that is not necessarily true.
That's the problem with reasoned argument - someone will come along who has actual experience and blow your argument out of the water. I think you had better admit defeat now because this thing about criminal negligence in the NHS is not going away anytime soon.
Pikey-Biker
says...
1:41pm Tue 5 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:I never said it was a blag just got my information from the BBC which states “Data shows there were between 400 and 1,200 more deaths than would have been expected. It is impossible to say all of these patients would have survived if they had received better treatment” so if you are saying I am wrong then the BBC are wrong.
****-Biker wrote:You are arguing in a vacumn. You need to do the reading on the subject; the press and media today are full of it. On Newsnight yesterday the Times headlines were shown; they have indicated 1200 needless deaths. Perhaps you would be better off telling the relatives that their relatives have not died needlessly and that it is all really a blag. But I think you will get a very funny response to what you are saying. That's the problem with reasoned argument - someone will come along who has actual experience and blow your argument out of the water. I think you had better admit defeat now because this thing about criminal negligence in the NHS is not going away anytime soon.Donald2000 wrote:When I have seen emotive comments like ones you made earlier for example “now actively engaged in trying to kill patients” in my opinion invalidates your view as it’s simply not true, if you become too emotional your arguments loose focus. I will not dispute the failings of the NHS have made in the past but I believe NHS will learn from them and improve but in order to do so you need cool heads not hot heads like yours. On the subject of the appalling care given by Stafford Hospital which I cannot defend one needless death is bad enough but you stated that there were 1200 needless deaths but that is not necessarily true.****-Biker wrote:No, you would like to think I am an ignorant person because it suits your purposes. Today in Parliament, the leader of the NHS is being interviewed. The figures for Staffs HA are 1200 needless deaths. Yet you still think people are being emotional. To be emotional is part of life; it shows you are alive. We don't want cold reason within this scenario - cold reason is the kind of thing which makes bankers destroy this society. Let's all be British and stiff upper lip. I am proud of the fact that I have a strong reaction to my own plight and the plight of others who have bad and criminal treatment within the NHS because I am interested in people's right to live. It's cold hearted and cynical reasoning that leads to people dying within the NHS and there's too much of this and not enough warmth and emotion. I make no apology for what I am and for wanting people to live. You reason about people's unnecessary deaths if you want to. I want people to live and that means not sending people home with half their guts hanging out or other criminal failures to care for people.Donald2000 wrote:My comments may not agree with yours but they are not devoid of reality, if you think that you truly are an ignorant person. The NHS has made mistakes in the past and probably make more in the future but it will learn from them. I have commented many times on the Liverpool Care Pathway and some of the ridiculous emotional ramblings by certain people in the past 3 months, to see you compare that with Doctor Shipman who was a cold blooded killer is ridiculous comment, but quite common amongst the anti Liverpool Care pathway supporters Oh and Donald, I certainly don’t want your pity****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.Donald2000 wrote: @****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.Donald There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post. On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
I am not going to admit defeat to a hot head who spouts silly comments
Donald2000
says...
1:53pm Tue 5 Mar 13
****-Biker wrote:I am not going to admit defeat to a hot head who spouts silly comments. Then don't b other to reply to me then, if that's really what you think I am. Only, you just aren't too sure really are you? You have just got this nagging feeling that I might be right? Let's see what happens to your argument when the NHS goes from bad to worse and a lot more people die. Let's see where your argument goes then.
Donald2000 wrote:I never said it was a blag just got my information from the BBC which states “Data shows there were between 400 and 1,200 more deaths than would have been expected. It is impossible to say all of these patients would have survived if they had received better treatment” so if you are saying I am wrong then the BBC are wrong.
****-Biker wrote:You are arguing in a vacumn. You need to do the reading on the subject; the press and media today are full of it. On Newsnight yesterday the Times headlines were shown; they have indicated 1200 needless deaths. Perhaps you would be better off telling the relatives that their relatives have not died needlessly and that it is all really a blag. But I think you will get a very funny response to what you are saying. That's the problem with reasoned argument - someone will come along who has actual experience and blow your argument out of the water. I think you had better admit defeat now because this thing about criminal negligence in the NHS is not going away anytime soon.Donald2000 wrote:When I have seen emotive comments like ones you made earlier for example “now actively engaged in trying to kill patients” in my opinion invalidates your view as it’s simply not true, if you become too emotional your arguments loose focus. I will not dispute the failings of the NHS have made in the past but I believe NHS will learn from them and improve but in order to do so you need cool heads not hot heads like yours. On the subject of the appalling care given by Stafford Hospital which I cannot defend one needless death is bad enough but you stated that there were 1200 needless deaths but that is not necessarily true.****-Biker wrote:No, you would like to think I am an ignorant person because it suits your purposes. Today in Parliament, the leader of the NHS is being interviewed. The figures for Staffs HA are 1200 needless deaths. Yet you still think people are being emotional. To be emotional is part of life; it shows you are alive. We don't want cold reason within this scenario - cold reason is the kind of thing which makes bankers destroy this society. Let's all be British and stiff upper lip. I am proud of the fact that I have a strong reaction to my own plight and the plight of others who have bad and criminal treatment within the NHS because I am interested in people's right to live. It's cold hearted and cynical reasoning that leads to people dying within the NHS and there's too much of this and not enough warmth and emotion. I make no apology for what I am and for wanting people to live. You reason about people's unnecessary deaths if you want to. I want people to live and that means not sending people home with half their guts hanging out or other criminal failures to care for people.Donald2000 wrote:My comments may not agree with yours but they are not devoid of reality, if you think that you truly are an ignorant person. The NHS has made mistakes in the past and probably make more in the future but it will learn from them. I have commented many times on the Liverpool Care Pathway and some of the ridiculous emotional ramblings by certain people in the past 3 months, to see you compare that with Doctor Shipman who was a cold blooded killer is ridiculous comment, but quite common amongst the anti Liverpool Care pathway supporters Oh and Donald, I certainly don’t want your pity****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.Donald2000 wrote: @****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.Donald There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post. On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
I am not going to admit defeat to a hot head who spouts silly comments
Pikey-Biker
says...
1:56pm Tue 5 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:As I have said before I don’t necessarily agree with certain people but if they put their comments over in a reasoned and truthful fashion then I won’t enter the debate.
****-Biker wrote:You are arguing in a vacumn. You need to do the reading on the subject; the press and media today are full of it. On Newsnight yesterday the Times headlines were shown; they have indicated 1200 needless deaths. Perhaps you would be better off telling the relatives that their relatives have not died needlessly and that it is all really a blag. But I think you will get a very funny response to what you are saying. That's the problem with reasoned argument - someone will come along who has actual experience and blow your argument out of the water. I think you had better admit defeat now because this thing about criminal negligence in the NHS is not going away anytime soon.Donald2000 wrote:When I have seen emotive comments like ones you made earlier for example “now actively engaged in trying to kill patients” in my opinion invalidates your view as it’s simply not true, if you become too emotional your arguments loose focus. I will not dispute the failings of the NHS have made in the past but I believe NHS will learn from them and improve but in order to do so you need cool heads not hot heads like yours. On the subject of the appalling care given by Stafford Hospital which I cannot defend one needless death is bad enough but you stated that there were 1200 needless deaths but that is not necessarily true.****-Biker wrote:No, you would like to think I am an ignorant person because it suits your purposes. Today in Parliament, the leader of the NHS is being interviewed. The figures for Staffs HA are 1200 needless deaths. Yet you still think people are being emotional. To be emotional is part of life; it shows you are alive. We don't want cold reason within this scenario - cold reason is the kind of thing which makes bankers destroy this society. Let's all be British and stiff upper lip. I am proud of the fact that I have a strong reaction to my own plight and the plight of others who have bad and criminal treatment within the NHS because I am interested in people's right to live. It's cold hearted and cynical reasoning that leads to people dying within the NHS and there's too much of this and not enough warmth and emotion. I make no apology for what I am and for wanting people to live. You reason about people's unnecessary deaths if you want to. I want people to live and that means not sending people home with half their guts hanging out or other criminal failures to care for people.Donald2000 wrote:My comments may not agree with yours but they are not devoid of reality, if you think that you truly are an ignorant person. The NHS has made mistakes in the past and probably make more in the future but it will learn from them. I have commented many times on the Liverpool Care Pathway and some of the ridiculous emotional ramblings by certain people in the past 3 months, to see you compare that with Doctor Shipman who was a cold blooded killer is ridiculous comment, but quite common amongst the anti Liverpool Care pathway supporters Oh and Donald, I certainly don’t want your pity****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.Donald2000 wrote: @****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.Donald There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post. On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
Also, I have been debating on this website for at least 3 months to counter the silly and untrue comments people have made especially on the stories linked to the NHS.
If you keep posting stuff like you have been posting I will keep countering your posts
Pikey-Biker
says...
2:10pm Tue 5 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:I am only going by your comments you have made earlier, no I am quite sure if you spout” People are beginning to spot that this hospital is now actively engaged in trying to kill patients” sort of ensures you are unlikely to win this argument, but as I said “Middleof Road” put his point in a reasoned manner even though I don’t agree with it.
****-Biker wrote:I am not going to admit defeat to a hot head who spouts silly comments. Then don't b other to reply to me then, if that's really what you think I am. Only, you just aren't too sure really are you? You have just got this nagging feeling that I might be right? Let's see what happens to your argument when the NHS goes from bad to worse and a lot more people die. Let's see where your argument goes then.Donald2000 wrote:I never said it was a blag just got my information from the BBC which states “Data shows there were between 400 and 1,200 more deaths than would have been expected. It is impossible to say all of these patients would have survived if they had received better treatment” so if you are saying I am wrong then the BBC are wrong. I am not going to admit defeat to a hot head who spouts silly comments****-Biker wrote:You are arguing in a vacumn. You need to do the reading on the subject; the press and media today are full of it. On Newsnight yesterday the Times headlines were shown; they have indicated 1200 needless deaths. Perhaps you would be better off telling the relatives that their relatives have not died needlessly and that it is all really a blag. But I think you will get a very funny response to what you are saying. That's the problem with reasoned argument - someone will come along who has actual experience and blow your argument out of the water. I think you had better admit defeat now because this thing about criminal negligence in the NHS is not going away anytime soon.Donald2000 wrote:When I have seen emotive comments like ones you made earlier for example “now actively engaged in trying to kill patients” in my opinion invalidates your view as it’s simply not true, if you become too emotional your arguments loose focus. I will not dispute the failings of the NHS have made in the past but I believe NHS will learn from them and improve but in order to do so you need cool heads not hot heads like yours. On the subject of the appalling care given by Stafford Hospital which I cannot defend one needless death is bad enough but you stated that there were 1200 needless deaths but that is not necessarily true.****-Biker wrote:No, you would like to think I am an ignorant person because it suits your purposes. Today in Parliament, the leader of the NHS is being interviewed. The figures for Staffs HA are 1200 needless deaths. Yet you still think people are being emotional. To be emotional is part of life; it shows you are alive. We don't want cold reason within this scenario - cold reason is the kind of thing which makes bankers destroy this society. Let's all be British and stiff upper lip. I am proud of the fact that I have a strong reaction to my own plight and the plight of others who have bad and criminal treatment within the NHS because I am interested in people's right to live. It's cold hearted and cynical reasoning that leads to people dying within the NHS and there's too much of this and not enough warmth and emotion. I make no apology for what I am and for wanting people to live. You reason about people's unnecessary deaths if you want to. I want people to live and that means not sending people home with half their guts hanging out or other criminal failures to care for people.Donald2000 wrote:My comments may not agree with yours but they are not devoid of reality, if you think that you truly are an ignorant person. The NHS has made mistakes in the past and probably make more in the future but it will learn from them. I have commented many times on the Liverpool Care Pathway and some of the ridiculous emotional ramblings by certain people in the past 3 months, to see you compare that with Doctor Shipman who was a cold blooded killer is ridiculous comment, but quite common amongst the anti Liverpool Care pathway supporters Oh and Donald, I certainly don’t want your pity****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.Donald2000 wrote: @****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.Donald There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post. On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
Donald2000
says...
2:11pm Tue 5 Mar 13
****-Biker wrote:I hope you are happy in your newly appointed role as guardian of the NHS and I wish you well in it.
Donald2000 wrote:As I have said before I don’t necessarily agree with certain people but if they put their comments over in a reasoned and truthful fashion then I won’t enter the debate.
****-Biker wrote:You are arguing in a vacumn. You need to do the reading on the subject; the press and media today are full of it. On Newsnight yesterday the Times headlines were shown; they have indicated 1200 needless deaths. Perhaps you would be better off telling the relatives that their relatives have not died needlessly and that it is all really a blag. But I think you will get a very funny response to what you are saying. That's the problem with reasoned argument - someone will come along who has actual experience and blow your argument out of the water. I think you had better admit defeat now because this thing about criminal negligence in the NHS is not going away anytime soon.Donald2000 wrote:When I have seen emotive comments like ones you made earlier for example “now actively engaged in trying to kill patients” in my opinion invalidates your view as it’s simply not true, if you become too emotional your arguments loose focus. I will not dispute the failings of the NHS have made in the past but I believe NHS will learn from them and improve but in order to do so you need cool heads not hot heads like yours. On the subject of the appalling care given by Stafford Hospital which I cannot defend one needless death is bad enough but you stated that there were 1200 needless deaths but that is not necessarily true.****-Biker wrote:No, you would like to think I am an ignorant person because it suits your purposes. Today in Parliament, the leader of the NHS is being interviewed. The figures for Staffs HA are 1200 needless deaths. Yet you still think people are being emotional. To be emotional is part of life; it shows you are alive. We don't want cold reason within this scenario - cold reason is the kind of thing which makes bankers destroy this society. Let's all be British and stiff upper lip. I am proud of the fact that I have a strong reaction to my own plight and the plight of others who have bad and criminal treatment within the NHS because I am interested in people's right to live. It's cold hearted and cynical reasoning that leads to people dying within the NHS and there's too much of this and not enough warmth and emotion. I make no apology for what I am and for wanting people to live. You reason about people's unnecessary deaths if you want to. I want people to live and that means not sending people home with half their guts hanging out or other criminal failures to care for people.Donald2000 wrote:My comments may not agree with yours but they are not devoid of reality, if you think that you truly are an ignorant person. The NHS has made mistakes in the past and probably make more in the future but it will learn from them. I have commented many times on the Liverpool Care Pathway and some of the ridiculous emotional ramblings by certain people in the past 3 months, to see you compare that with Doctor Shipman who was a cold blooded killer is ridiculous comment, but quite common amongst the anti Liverpool Care pathway supporters Oh and Donald, I certainly don’t want your pity****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.Donald2000 wrote: @****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.Donald There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post. On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
Also, I have been debating on this website for at least 3 months to counter the silly and untrue comments people have made especially on the stories linked to the NHS.
If you keep posting stuff like you have been posting I will keep countering your posts
Pikey-Biker
says...
2:15pm Tue 5 Mar 13
Donald2000 wrote:It’s all right mate I am happy with the job I have, sounds like there would have been a pay rise in it as well, but I will let the SGH use that money for more staff.
****-Biker wrote:I hope you are happy in your newly appointed role as guardian of the NHS and I wish you well in it.Donald2000 wrote:As I have said before I don’t necessarily agree with certain people but if they put their comments over in a reasoned and truthful fashion then I won’t enter the debate. Also, I have been debating on this website for at least 3 months to counter the silly and untrue comments people have made especially on the stories linked to the NHS. If you keep posting stuff like you have been posting I will keep countering your posts****-Biker wrote:You are arguing in a vacumn. You need to do the reading on the subject; the press and media today are full of it. On Newsnight yesterday the Times headlines were shown; they have indicated 1200 needless deaths. Perhaps you would be better off telling the relatives that their relatives have not died needlessly and that it is all really a blag. But I think you will get a very funny response to what you are saying. That's the problem with reasoned argument - someone will come along who has actual experience and blow your argument out of the water. I think you had better admit defeat now because this thing about criminal negligence in the NHS is not going away anytime soon.Donald2000 wrote:When I have seen emotive comments like ones you made earlier for example “now actively engaged in trying to kill patients” in my opinion invalidates your view as it’s simply not true, if you become too emotional your arguments loose focus. I will not dispute the failings of the NHS have made in the past but I believe NHS will learn from them and improve but in order to do so you need cool heads not hot heads like yours. On the subject of the appalling care given by Stafford Hospital which I cannot defend one needless death is bad enough but you stated that there were 1200 needless deaths but that is not necessarily true.****-Biker wrote:No, you would like to think I am an ignorant person because it suits your purposes. Today in Parliament, the leader of the NHS is being interviewed. The figures for Staffs HA are 1200 needless deaths. Yet you still think people are being emotional. To be emotional is part of life; it shows you are alive. We don't want cold reason within this scenario - cold reason is the kind of thing which makes bankers destroy this society. Let's all be British and stiff upper lip. I am proud of the fact that I have a strong reaction to my own plight and the plight of others who have bad and criminal treatment within the NHS because I am interested in people's right to live. It's cold hearted and cynical reasoning that leads to people dying within the NHS and there's too much of this and not enough warmth and emotion. I make no apology for what I am and for wanting people to live. You reason about people's unnecessary deaths if you want to. I want people to live and that means not sending people home with half their guts hanging out or other criminal failures to care for people.Donald2000 wrote:My comments may not agree with yours but they are not devoid of reality, if you think that you truly are an ignorant person. The NHS has made mistakes in the past and probably make more in the future but it will learn from them. I have commented many times on the Liverpool Care Pathway and some of the ridiculous emotional ramblings by certain people in the past 3 months, to see you compare that with Doctor Shipman who was a cold blooded killer is ridiculous comment, but quite common amongst the anti Liverpool Care pathway supporters Oh and Donald, I certainly don’t want your pity****-Biker wrote:Without being rude, I honestly think you must have been going around wearing dark glasses most of your life. Your comments are entirely devoid of any reality.This is despite the fact that there have been many many reports within the national press about the scandal of Mid-Staffs Health Authority, the Liverpool Care Pathway, Doctor Shipman, etc and the Parliamentary review into ATOS. You just cannot seem to see anything at all. Let's hope that you don't ever see the flipside of these organisations which you seem to love so much. I feel sad for you.Donald2000 wrote: @****-biker. Goody, let's hope that it doesn't happen to you then, that you are sent home with your guts hanging out of your body. The trouble with these columns is that people can't stand the truth, most of the so called commentators on this thread cannot stand the fact that something has been pointed up as being wrong, that the NHS is not infallable and that there could be individuals within that structure who do not actually not care at all about patients. To those people I would say, wait until it happens to you, or your wife, parents, sons or daughters. Next, people will be saying that ATOS doesn't kill people either and that it's a humane organisation preserving disability benefits. God save us against ignorance.Donald There is a big difference between some of the over emotional comments made by yourself and others and the comments made by, for example, MiddleOfRoad which was a reasoned post. On your second point ATOS doesn’t kill people, again it’s stupid to suggest otherwise. In my Opinion ATOS is very good at uncovering the work shy.
cantthinkofone
says...
6:29pm Tue 5 Mar 13
I've worked with HES (Hospital Episode Statistics) data, and I've worked with UCL's health stats unit. It's crucial to my contracting work in primary care. The '1,200 avoidable deaths' figure is spurious to say the least. It's certainly an indicator, but is almost certainly a gross overestimate.
Healthcare data and the associated algorithms are far too complex to detail on a local rag's comments section. But if any of the anti-NHS crusaders on here want to have any credibility, then it's all public access so get reading.
I suggest those same people also take a pay cut and get to work in the NHS, as their ability to find easy solutions to dogged problems would surely be welcomed by all I know who work there. They can also keep an eye on all those people that they have labelled as 'criminals' and 'murderers'. Maybe change a bedpan or two as well.
Healthcare data and the associated algorithms are far too complex to detail on a local rag's comments section. But if any of the anti-NHS crusaders on here want to have any credibility, then it's all public access so get reading.
I suggest those same people also take a pay cut and get to work in the NHS, as their ability to find easy solutions to dogged problems would surely be welcomed by all I know who work there. They can also keep an eye on all those people that they have labelled as 'criminals' and 'murderers'. Maybe change a bedpan or two as well.
zuki12
says...
9:32am Wed 6 Mar 13
Just Three words BRING BACK MATRON
cantthinkofone
says...
5:43pm Thu 7 Mar 13
zuki12 wrote:Three more words for you: THEY ALREADY HAVE
Just Three words BRING BACK MATRON
The foolish ignorance on here is breathtaking sometimes, it really is.
Linesman says...
9:08am Mon 4 Mar 13
Each party goes into an election promising to cut taxes for at least one section of society, but we all know that a cut in taxes means a cut in services.
The NHS is too important to be starved of cash and resources. We only have one life, and it is most precious, and should be treated as such.
If Cameron wants to regain some shred of popularity, then he has to act on his promise that the NHS was safe in his hands, and start working with the other parties to get the NHS back to the ideal that Nye Bevan had when it was created.