Hampshire leaders and campaigners pay tribute to Mandela

Daily Echo: Hampshire leaders and campaigners pay tribute to Mandela Hampshire leaders and campaigners pay tribute to Mandela

HAMPSHIRE politicians, community leaders and campaigners have led tributes to Nelson Mandela this morning.

It was announced late yesterday evening that South Africa's first black president had died at the age of 95.

The anti-apartheid icon, held in the highest esteem across the world for leading his nation's transition from white-minority rule in the 1990s after 27 years in prison, had been receiving medical care for a lung infection at his home.

Paying tribute, Southampton City Council leader Simon Letts said: “There are very few people in the world of politics to have profoundly affected the way the world worked than Nelson Mandela.

“It’s really sad to hear he has passed away.

He was one of the greatest statesmen that ever lived. “If someone epitomised the view that you can resolve really difficult situations by seeking negotiations and resolutions then it was him.”

New Forest East MP Julian Lewis said: “I would say on any scale of values he was a political giant who showed that you can achieve more by forgiveness and compassion than by hatred and violence. “

"He really was quite a phenomenon.

"The fact that he could spend 27 years in jail and come out not embittered but to come out with this amazingly philosophic and deep understanding for reconciliation speaks volumes for his character.”

Don John, event coordinator for Black History month in Southampton, said: “There are only good things to say about him.

“He was a really iconic figure in black history.

“He was a man who endured more than any of us and the man who is responsible for bringing down one of the most vile regimes in the world and held the nation together after Apartheid was broken down when bad things could have happened.

“We will be mourning him as someone who was an international figure who stood for anti-discrimination and racism and there are many people in this community who are familiar with those themes in their own lives.”

He added: “I think his image resonates and his image alone stands for equality.”

Southampton Itchen MP John Denham said: “He was obviously a remarkable man who transformed his country but he also influenced a whole generation around the world.

“For people of my age when we were young Apartheid was one of those issues that made us think what our values really were and made us ask whether we wanted to take the world the way it was or try to change it and that sense will have been shared by millions of people around the world.”

Bob Purkiss, 68, from Southampton, who was awarded an MBE for his work fighting racism, said he was inspired to battle discrimination when he worked on the Union Castle passenger ships to Cape Town as a teenage merchant navy sailor.

When Mr Purkiss went ashore he experienced first hand the cruel discrimination that he could have never imagined existed having grown up in Hampshire.

He said: “When I went to South Africa in 1961 as a mixed race boy born in Winchester, Indians could own hotels, but not stay in them or enjoy the facilities, my step brother and I could not sit on the same beach or park bench together because he was white.

“If we went on a bus he had to go upstairs and I had to go downstairs.

“It was a way of life that was impossible to understand but many crew members from Southampton liked the fact that their colour elevated their status in society and moved there to live and work at a level many would never have achieved here.

“Mandela fought for equality of opportunity for all and for individuals to be respected for their ability to contribute to the society in which they live however small that may be, irrespective of their race, colour, religion or personal background.

“His message of “respect and understanding” was the core belief that he maintained throughout his incarceration in the Robben Island prison where he spent so much of his adult life.”

Mr Mandela was the glowing beacon of hope, shining across South Africa and the world, whose 27 years in jail left him without a trace of bitterness or hatred against those who practised the evil of apartheid.

From his prison cell in Robben Island the man who was to become president of his beloved South Africa did more than any person alive to end this scourge and to bring about black majority rule in his country.

It was Mr Mandela, even through his long and lonely incarceration, whose sheer, unwavering resolve to end the iniquities in South Africa assuaged the despair of millions of blacks who existed under the tyranny of apartheid.

Never did he compromise his inflexible principles, which provided a source of great strength to fellow prisoners.

More than once he rejected offers of freedom with strings attached.

Only a free man can negotiate, he said.

A prisoner cannot enter into contracts.

Mr Mandela was finally released by President FW de Klerk on Sunday February 11 1990, sometime after the then president had lifted the ban on the African National Congress.

It was soon after his release that Mr Mandela and his delegation formally agreed to the end of the armed struggle.

Four years later, on May 10 1994, Mr Mandela was inaugurated as the first democratically-elected president of South Africa, a post he held until June 1999, when he formally retired from public life.

Even then, he spent much of his time travelling the world, meeting foreign statesmen and being hailed, wherever he went, as a remarkable man who never demonstrated even a trace of rancour and vindictiveness towards those who maintained the tyrannical regime and who threw him into prison.

His appeals for peace and harmony, not simply in the formerly race-ridden state of South Africa, but throughout the world, including, and especially, the Middle East, were often more effective than those issued even from the White House.

He was revered worldwide as a man of peace and forgiveness, a man who did not know the meaning of the word ''malice''.

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela was born on July 18 1918 in a village near Umtata in the Transkei. He was given the name Nelson by a teacher at his school.

His father, a counsellor to the Thembu royal family, died when Nelson was nine, and he was placed in the care of the acting regent of the Thembu people.

He joined the African National Congress in 1943, first as an activist, then as the founder and president of the ANC Youth League.

Mandela married his first wife, Evelyn Mase, in 1944. They divorced in 1957, after having three children.

He qualified as a lawyer and, in 1952, opened a law practice in Johannesburg with his partner, Oliver Tambo.

Together, Mr Mandela and Mr Tambo campaigned against apartheid. In 1956, Mandela was charged with high treason, with 155 other activists.

But the charges against him were dropped after a four-year trial.

The resistance to apartheid grew, mainly against the new pass laws, which dictated where blacks were allowed to live and work.

In 1958, he married Winnie Madikizela, who later played an active role, both politically and in the campaign - which eventually became worldwide - to free her husband from prison.

Two years later, the ANC was outlawed and Mr Mandela went underground. Tension with the apologists for apartheid soared to new heights when, in 1960, 69 black people were shot dead by police in the Sharpeville massacre.

This signalled the end of peaceful resistance.

Mr Mandela, who was already by then national vice-president of the ANC, launched a campaign of sabotage against the South African economy.

With the banning of the ANC, he was detained until 1961 when he went underground to lead a campaign for a new national convention.

Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK), the military wing of the ANC, was born the same year. Under his leadership, it launched that campaign against the Government and economic installations.

In 1962, Mr Mandela left the country for military training in Algeria and to arrange training for other MK leaders.

On his return, he was arrested for leaving the country illegally and for incitement to strike.

He conducted his own defence and used the stand at this and a subsequent trial for treason to convey his beliefs about equality, democracy and freedom.

He said: ''I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve.

But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.'' Mr Mandela, however, was convicted and jailed for five years.

While serving that sentence he was charged in the winter of 1964 with sabotage and sentenced to life imprisonment.

In the 12 months between 1968 and 1969, Mr Mandela's mother died and his eldest son was killed in a car crash, but he was not allowed to attend their funerals.

He remained in prison on the notorious Robben Island for 18 years before being transferred to Polismoor Prison on the mainland in 1982.

In prison, Mr Mandela never compromised his political principles.

During the 1970s, he refused the offer of remission of sentence if he recognised Transkei and settled there.

In the following decade, he again rejected president PW Botha's offer of freedom if he renounced violence.

But, as he and other ANC leaders languished in prison or lived in exile, South African black township children helped to sustain the resistance.

Hundreds were killed and thousands injured before the schoolchildren's uprising was crushed

Meanwhile, in 1980, his great friend Mr Tambo, who was in exile, launched an international campaign for his release.

As he did so, the world community tightened the sanctions first imposed on South Africa in 1967 against the apartheid regime.

This pressure produced results. President de Klerk lifted the ban on the ANC and Mr Mandela was released, amid jubilation, from prison.

Within days, the ANC and the National Party began talks about forming a new multi-racial democracy for South Africa.

However, violent clashes broke out between supporters of the Inkatha Freedom Party, a Zulu group led by Chief Buthelezi and ANC supporters.

Despite attempts to resolve the problems through talks, the violence escalated and the Inkatha targeted ANC strongholds with support from the white police force.

Relations grew tense as the violence persisted, but the two leaders - President de Klerk and Mr Mandela - met sporadically in an attempt to stop the bloodshed.

In 1992, Mr Mandela divorced his wife Winnie, after she was convicted on charges of kidnapping and accessory to assault.

In December the following year, Mr Mandela and Mr de Klerk were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

Mr Mandela said it was an accolade to all people who had worked for peace and stood against racism.

Five months later, for the first time in South Africa's history, all races voted in democratic elections.

Mr Mandela was elected President, in scenes of joy, with the ANC winning 252 of the 400 seats in the national assembly.

His greatest problem was the housing shortage for the poor and the slum townships blighting the major cities.

He entrusted his deputy, Thabo Mbeki, with the day-to-day business of the Government, while he concentrated on the ceremonial duties of a leader, building a new, international image of South Africa.

In that context, he persuaded the country's multinational corporations to remain and invest in South Africa. Mr Mandela gave up the presidency of the ANC in December 1997 in favour of Mr Mbeki.

He stepped down as president of the country after the ANC's landslide victory in the summer of 1999, again for Mr Mbeki.

Subsequently, he married Graca Machel, the widow of the former president of Mozambique.

In January 2005, he suffered a personal tragedy when his eldest son, lawyer Makgatho Mandela, 54, died of Aids-related complications.

His father said the only way to fight the disease's stigma was to speak openly about it. Even in ''retirement'',

Mr Mandela did not remain silent.

He accused the United Kingdom and the United States of encouraging international chaos by ignoring other countries and assuming the role of ''policemen of the world''.

He also openly criticised Washington and London for taking military action in Iraq and Kosovo without seeking permission from the United Nations Security Council.

But as the years progressed, his ailing health saw him retreat from public life.

In 2008, he made a rare visit to the UK to attend a concert marking his 90th birthday.

The following year, the United Nations declared July 18 Mandela Day, in recognition of his birthday.

But a family bereavement and increased fragility meant that he maintained a low profile at football's World Cup 2010 in South Africa, only briefly appearing at the finale.

It was an event that the former president had lobbied for on behalf of his country. Mr Mandela's role in South Africa hosting - and going on to win - 1995's Rugby World Cup had by this time been turned into a film, Invictus.

American actor Morgan Freeman received an Oscar nomination for portraying Mr Mandela in his bid to use sport to unite the country post-apartheid.

South Africa's football players were unable to match the earlier success of their rugby counterparts but the successful hosting of the event and the cross-racial support for the national team again underlined Mr Mandela's achievements.

In January 2011, Mr Mandela spent two nights in a Johannesburg hospital for what his doctor said was a respiratory infection.

Officials said his office received more than 10,000 letters of good wishes, including from US President Barack Obama.

In June 2011 Mr Mandela issued a message calling Albertina Sisulu ''one of the greatest South Africans'' as the country mourned a woman celebrated for her role in the fight against apartheid.

She had collapsed and died at her Johannesburg home at the age of 92. Mr Mandela's message, read by his wife Graca Machel during the funeral at a Soweto football stadium, set off a brief rally of singing and dancing in his honour.

In November 2011 the Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall inquired about Mr Mandela's state of health, while they were visiting South Africa.

They were told that the 93-year-old was ''fine, happy and peaceful and enjoying life'' at his birthplace in rural Qunu in the Eastern Cape.

In February 2012 it was announced that the complete series of South African bank notes would bear Mr Mandela's image.

President Jacob Zuma said at the central bank offices: ''

With this humble gesture, we are expressing our deep gratitude as the South African people, to a life spent in service of the people of this country and in the cause of humanity worldwide.''

The announcement was made on the 22nd anniversary of the anti-apartheid leader's release from prison.

Later that month an increasingly fragile Mr Mandela hit the headlines again, this time when he spent a night in hospital for a long-standing abdominal complaint.

The former president's health took another turn for the worse in December last year when he was admitted to a military hospital for treatment for a lung infection and surgery to remove gallstones.

Worshippers gathered at the Regina Mundi Catholic church - a centre of anti-apartheid protests and funerals - in the Soweto area of Johannesburg to pray for the former leader.

He spent Christmas Day in hospital with his wife and family members at his bedside during his three-week stay.

He was again admitted to hospital in Pretoria in March this year, and on April 6 he was discharged from a hospital after treatment for pneumonia, which included a procedure in which doctors drained fluid from his lung area.

On June 8 he was admitted to hospital again with a recurrence of his lung infection, and in recent weeks his health deteriorated.

Mr Zuma said on June 23 that Mr Mandela's health had deteriorated and he was in a ''critical condition'', but added that he was ''in good hands'' as well-wishers continued to voice support for a father figure and symbol of integrity who will be remembered as the man who saved South Africa.

Comments (43)

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12:55am Fri 6 Dec 13

Stephen J says...

“He really was quite a phenomena." Phenomenon is the singular.
“He really was quite a phenomena." Phenomenon is the singular. Stephen J

6:44am Fri 6 Dec 13

The Watcher says...

Wonder whether any of our local Conservative Party thought he was a terrorist and should hang?
.
Interesting that whilst the centre & left were demanding his freedom and supporting sanctions, many on the right were labelling him a terrorist and opposing sanctions.
.
However, I'm sure that won't stop them eulogising over the man now, nor using his passing to sound statesmen like.
Wonder whether any of our local Conservative Party thought he was a terrorist and should hang? . Interesting that whilst the centre & left were demanding his freedom and supporting sanctions, many on the right were labelling him a terrorist and opposing sanctions. . However, I'm sure that won't stop them eulogising over the man now, nor using his passing to sound statesmen like. The Watcher

8:07am Fri 6 Dec 13

sburman says...

The Watcher wrote:
Wonder whether any of our local Conservative Party thought he was a terrorist and should hang?
.
Interesting that whilst the centre & left were demanding his freedom and supporting sanctions, many on the right were labelling him a terrorist and opposing sanctions.
.
However, I'm sure that won't stop them eulogising over the man now, nor using his passing to sound statesmen like.
The only difference between a torrorist and a freedom fighter is your point of view.

Anyway this is not a time for politics but to pay trespects for one of the great people of our time.

PS. Nor, Stephen J, is it time for scoring Spelling correction points.
[quote][p][bold]The Watcher[/bold] wrote: Wonder whether any of our local Conservative Party thought he was a terrorist and should hang? . Interesting that whilst the centre & left were demanding his freedom and supporting sanctions, many on the right were labelling him a terrorist and opposing sanctions. . However, I'm sure that won't stop them eulogising over the man now, nor using his passing to sound statesmen like.[/p][/quote]The only difference between a torrorist and a freedom fighter is your point of view. Anyway this is not a time for politics but to pay trespects for one of the great people of our time. PS. Nor, Stephen J, is it time for scoring Spelling correction points. sburman

8:13am Fri 6 Dec 13

Paramjit Bahia says...

Nelson Mandela one of the greatest men ever to have walked on our planet Earth may have passed away but like Mahatama Gandhi and Martin Luther King he has left many good value based examples behind.

If their values like equality in human race, creation of fairer and compassionate society are put into put into practice by our so called leaders, that will be the best tribute to the icon of freedom, which will be better than crocodile tears from those world wide who will be exploiting Mandela's death for promoting themselves today.

Mandela may have gone but he has left many good examples behind for us to follow, hypocrisy is not one of those.

RIP
Nelson Mandela one of the greatest men ever to have walked on our planet Earth may have passed away but like Mahatama Gandhi and Martin Luther King he has left many good value based examples behind. If their values like equality in human race, creation of fairer and compassionate society are put into put into practice by our so called leaders, that will be the best tribute to the icon of freedom, which will be better than crocodile tears from those world wide who will be exploiting Mandela's death for promoting themselves today. Mandela may have gone but he has left many good examples behind for us to follow, hypocrisy is not one of those. RIP Paramjit Bahia

8:21am Fri 6 Dec 13

S Pance says...

Study your history, guys!

Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA.

Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not.

Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero.

If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.
Study your history, guys! Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA. Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not. Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero. If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense. S Pance

8:23am Fri 6 Dec 13

S Pance says...

If you want a laugh go take a look at the Harry Enfield impression of Mandela on youtube!
If you want a laugh go take a look at the Harry Enfield impression of Mandela on youtube! S Pance

8:30am Fri 6 Dec 13

gilbertratchet says...

S Pance wrote:
Study your history, guys!

Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA.

Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not.

Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero.

If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.
Amazing. You're the first person in the world to have read anything whatsoever about Mandela. The rest of us sheeple just believe all the Disney lies, of course.
[quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: Study your history, guys! Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA. Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not. Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero. If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.[/p][/quote]Amazing. You're the first person in the world to have read anything whatsoever about Mandela. The rest of us sheeple just believe all the Disney lies, of course. gilbertratchet

9:01am Fri 6 Dec 13

WILLIAM HAGUES TWIN BROTHER. says...

The Watcher wrote:
Wonder whether any of our local Conservative Party thought he was a terrorist and should hang?
.
Interesting that whilst the centre & left were demanding his freedom and supporting sanctions, many on the right were labelling him a terrorist and opposing sanctions.
.
However, I'm sure that won't stop them eulogising over the man now, nor using his passing to sound statesmen like.
just heard Gideon Osborne gushing lyrical , while his regime force cancer patients to work ,sickening.
[quote][p][bold]The Watcher[/bold] wrote: Wonder whether any of our local Conservative Party thought he was a terrorist and should hang? . Interesting that whilst the centre & left were demanding his freedom and supporting sanctions, many on the right were labelling him a terrorist and opposing sanctions. . However, I'm sure that won't stop them eulogising over the man now, nor using his passing to sound statesmen like.[/p][/quote]just heard Gideon Osborne gushing lyrical , while his regime force cancer patients to work ,sickening. WILLIAM HAGUES TWIN BROTHER.

9:09am Fri 6 Dec 13

WILLIAM HAGUES TWIN BROTHER. says...

S Pance wrote:
Study your history, guys!

Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA.

Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not.

Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero.

If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.
Spot on , pity the sheeple keep grazing .
[quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: Study your history, guys! Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA. Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not. Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero. If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.[/p][/quote]Spot on , pity the sheeple keep grazing . WILLIAM HAGUES TWIN BROTHER.

9:15am Fri 6 Dec 13

Brite Spark says...

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
Out of the night that covers me, Black as the pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul. In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed. Beyond this place of wrath and tears Looms but the horror of the shade, And yet the menace of the years Finds and shall find me unafraid. It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul. Brite Spark

9:45am Fri 6 Dec 13

southy says...

The world as become a darker place to live in, one of the greats as been lost to the aisle of passing time
The world as become a darker place to live in, one of the greats as been lost to the aisle of passing time southy

9:47am Fri 6 Dec 13

S Pance says...

Southy, the aisle of passing time is in Asda. The one with beer in it.
Southy, the aisle of passing time is in Asda. The one with beer in it. S Pance

10:21am Fri 6 Dec 13

southy says...

S Pance wrote:
Southy, the aisle of passing time is in Asda. The one with beer in it.
That aisle I leave for the likes of you S Pance seeing you know the exact location, I don't drink any alcohol
[quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: Southy, the aisle of passing time is in Asda. The one with beer in it.[/p][/quote]That aisle I leave for the likes of you S Pance seeing you know the exact location, I don't drink any alcohol southy

11:06am Fri 6 Dec 13

George4th says...

S Pance wrote:
Study your history, guys!

Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA.

Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not.

Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero.

If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.
And your solution to resolve intense conflict is?
[quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: Study your history, guys! Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA. Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not. Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero. If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.[/p][/quote]And your solution to resolve intense conflict is? George4th

11:08am Fri 6 Dec 13

George4th says...

Paramjit Bahia wrote:
Nelson Mandela one of the greatest men ever to have walked on our planet Earth may have passed away but like Mahatama Gandhi and Martin Luther King he has left many good value based examples behind.

If their values like equality in human race, creation of fairer and compassionate society are put into put into practice by our so called leaders, that will be the best tribute to the icon of freedom, which will be better than crocodile tears from those world wide who will be exploiting Mandela's death for promoting themselves today.

Mandela may have gone but he has left many good examples behind for us to follow, hypocrisy is not one of those.

RIP
Well spoken Paramjit.
[quote][p][bold]Paramjit Bahia[/bold] wrote: Nelson Mandela one of the greatest men ever to have walked on our planet Earth may have passed away but like Mahatama Gandhi and Martin Luther King he has left many good value based examples behind. If their values like equality in human race, creation of fairer and compassionate society are put into put into practice by our so called leaders, that will be the best tribute to the icon of freedom, which will be better than crocodile tears from those world wide who will be exploiting Mandela's death for promoting themselves today. Mandela may have gone but he has left many good examples behind for us to follow, hypocrisy is not one of those. RIP[/p][/quote]Well spoken Paramjit. George4th

11:55am Fri 6 Dec 13

Paramjit Bahia says...

S Pance wrote:
Study your history, guys!

Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA.

Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not.

Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero.

If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.
As expert in history you should also know at what stage Nelson Mandela and his colleagues changed their non violent Gandhian style struggle and the reasons behind it.

Even Mahatama Gandhi contributed to couple of wars by supporting British forces by voluntary participation in army's medical teams. In fact he organised groups of Indian volunteers to work even in hospital at Natley, but only could not work there because he himself had some health problem in London.

Many other great leaders have also supported blowing up targets behind enemy lines that caused civilian casualties, one of them was Winston Churchill.

As far as I am aware, Nelson Mandela himself was not involved in killing anybody, but somebody better informed will correct me if I may be wrong.

Please remember that one man's terrorist can also be freedom fighter for others. Mandela endorsed ANC's changed policy only because nothing else was working against most evil and racist regime of apartheid based regime of South Africa. And his biggest contribution was to speak for not only for blacks but also for the whites of South Africa and even those so called whites who'd treated him so badly.
[quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: Study your history, guys! Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA. Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not. Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero. If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.[/p][/quote]As expert in history you should also know at what stage Nelson Mandela and his colleagues changed their non violent Gandhian style struggle and the reasons behind it. Even Mahatama Gandhi contributed to couple of wars by supporting British forces by voluntary participation in army's medical teams. In fact he organised groups of Indian volunteers to work even in hospital at Natley, but only could not work there because he himself had some health problem in London. Many other great leaders have also supported blowing up targets behind enemy lines that caused civilian casualties, one of them was Winston Churchill. As far as I am aware, Nelson Mandela himself was not involved in killing anybody, but somebody better informed will correct me if I may be wrong. Please remember that one man's terrorist can also be freedom fighter for others. Mandela endorsed ANC's changed policy only because nothing else was working against most evil and racist regime of apartheid based regime of South Africa. And his biggest contribution was to speak for not only for blacks but also for the whites of South Africa and even those so called whites who'd treated him so badly. Paramjit Bahia

12:18pm Fri 6 Dec 13

chattygef says...

When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....
When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist..... chattygef

1:36pm Fri 6 Dec 13

sarfhamton says...

chattygef wrote:
When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....
In the same way that the French Resistance, Suffragettes would be in some eyes terrorists i suppose?
[quote][p][bold]chattygef[/bold] wrote: When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....[/p][/quote]In the same way that the French Resistance, Suffragettes would be in some eyes terrorists i suppose? sarfhamton

1:57pm Fri 6 Dec 13

jonnyx says...

chattygef wrote:
When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....
WOW!! what a startling post. and the most shocking thing is it's got 2 thumbs up. just wow!!
[quote][p][bold]chattygef[/bold] wrote: When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....[/p][/quote]WOW!! what a startling post. and the most shocking thing is it's got 2 thumbs up. just wow!! jonnyx

2:30pm Fri 6 Dec 13

S Pance says...

George4th wrote:
S Pance wrote:
Study your history, guys!

Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA.

Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not.

Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero.

If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.
And your solution to resolve intense conflict is?
Not saying I have a solution. All I said is that it's wrong to idolise someone who was responsible for the killings of so many innocent people.

Fine, yes, he did a lot of positive things but he sure as hell did a lot of bad things, too.

The guy wasn't a Saint. Far from it.
[quote][p][bold]George4th[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: Study your history, guys! Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA. Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not. Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero. If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.[/p][/quote]And your solution to resolve intense conflict is?[/p][/quote]Not saying I have a solution. All I said is that it's wrong to idolise someone who was responsible for the killings of so many innocent people. Fine, yes, he did a lot of positive things but he sure as hell did a lot of bad things, too. The guy wasn't a Saint. Far from it. S Pance

2:33pm Fri 6 Dec 13

dango says...

sarfhamton wrote:
chattygef wrote:
When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....
In the same way that the French Resistance, Suffragettes would be in some eyes terrorists i suppose?
The French resistance were fighting against an illegal occupation and used guerilla (a French word) tactics to fight for freedom.
The suffragettes movement did however us tactic that could be described as 'acts of terror' (arson and small bombs)
[quote][p][bold]sarfhamton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]chattygef[/bold] wrote: When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....[/p][/quote]In the same way that the French Resistance, Suffragettes would be in some eyes terrorists i suppose?[/p][/quote]The French resistance were fighting against an illegal occupation and used guerilla (a French word) tactics to fight for freedom. The suffragettes movement did however us tactic that could be described as 'acts of terror' (arson and small bombs) dango

2:57pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Stephen J says...

chattygef wrote:
When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....
So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting.
[quote][p][bold]chattygef[/bold] wrote: When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....[/p][/quote]So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting. Stephen J

3:12pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Stephen J says...

S Pance wrote:
Study your history, guys!

Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA.

Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not.

Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero.

If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.
The history I've read also mentions that he went to prison for a very long time and was released. You seem to have left that bit out.
[quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: Study your history, guys! Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA. Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not. Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero. If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.[/p][/quote]The history I've read also mentions that he went to prison for a very long time and was released. You seem to have left that bit out. Stephen J

3:41pm Fri 6 Dec 13

dango says...

http://thebackbenche
r.co.uk/3-things-you
-didnt-want-to-know-
about-nelson-mandela
/
http://thebackbenche r.co.uk/3-things-you -didnt-want-to-know- about-nelson-mandela / dango

3:46pm Fri 6 Dec 13

WILLIAM HAGUES TWIN BROTHER. says...

Stephen J wrote:
chattygef wrote:
When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....
So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting.
Who can forget the necklaces of the people who wanted no part of the marxist uprising and ongoing white genocide.
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]chattygef[/bold] wrote: When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....[/p][/quote]So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting.[/p][/quote]Who can forget the necklaces of the people who wanted no part of the marxist uprising and ongoing white genocide. WILLIAM HAGUES TWIN BROTHER.

3:47pm Fri 6 Dec 13

chattygef says...

Stephen J wrote:
chattygef wrote: When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....
So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting.
"So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting."

I didn't say I knew better than anyone.........a lot of people get released from prison......after serving time for crimes they've committed (mandela served 27 years for sabotage) and a lot of guilty politicians get elected.....
None of this changes in he fact he was a terrorist. .........
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]chattygef[/bold] wrote: When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....[/p][/quote]So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting.[/p][/quote]"So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting." I didn't say I knew better than anyone.........a lot of people get released from prison......after serving time for crimes they've committed (mandela served 27 years for sabotage) and a lot of guilty politicians get elected..... None of this changes in he fact he was a terrorist. ......... chattygef

4:02pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Stephen J says...

chattygef wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
chattygef wrote: When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....
So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting.
"So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting."

I didn't say I knew better than anyone.........a lot of people get released from prison......after serving time for crimes they've committed (mandela served 27 years for sabotage) and a lot of guilty politicians get elected.....
None of this changes in he fact he was a terrorist. .........
F.W. de Klerk didn't much like Mandela yet he put in place the mechanism for his release from prison. Why would de Klerk do such a thing? I must admit that we seem to be in danger of airbrushing de Klerk's role in what happened out of the picture, which is wrong.
[quote][p][bold]chattygef[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]chattygef[/bold] wrote: When it becomes morally right to blow up innocent people (including women and children) for what you believe then I'll be the first to pay my respects...till then I'll hold him in the same regard as Osama Bin Laden, Carlos the Jackal et al......i.e just another dead terrorist.....[/p][/quote]So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting.[/p][/quote]"So you know better than the South African government who released him from prison and the South African people who elected him as their president. Interesting." I didn't say I knew better than anyone.........a lot of people get released from prison......after serving time for crimes they've committed (mandela served 27 years for sabotage) and a lot of guilty politicians get elected..... None of this changes in he fact he was a terrorist. .........[/p][/quote]F.W. de Klerk didn't much like Mandela yet he put in place the mechanism for his release from prison. Why would de Klerk do such a thing? I must admit that we seem to be in danger of airbrushing de Klerk's role in what happened out of the picture, which is wrong. Stephen J

5:38pm Fri 6 Dec 13

issacchunt says...

Confused here, I thought the 'nissan main dealer' was westovers at totton causeway.
Confused here, I thought the 'nissan main dealer' was westovers at totton causeway. issacchunt

6:09pm Fri 6 Dec 13

southy says...

There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela.
He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts.
F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.
There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela. He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts. F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand. southy

6:24pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Someone_New says...

Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin.

How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.
Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin. How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed. Someone_New

7:26pm Fri 6 Dec 13

S Pance says...

Stephen J wrote:
S Pance wrote:
Study your history, guys!

Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA.

Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not.

Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero.

If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.
The history I've read also mentions that he went to prison for a very long time and was released. You seem to have left that bit out.
That doesn't remove the fact that MK killed innocent people.
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: Study your history, guys! Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA. Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not. Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero. If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.[/p][/quote]The history I've read also mentions that he went to prison for a very long time and was released. You seem to have left that bit out.[/p][/quote]That doesn't remove the fact that MK killed innocent people. S Pance

7:37pm Fri 6 Dec 13

S Pance says...

southy wrote:
There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela.
He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts.
F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.
More left wing lies, I'm afraid....

MK started bombings in 1961. Mandela wasn't arrested until 1962 and subsequently convicted of conspiring to overthrow the government, for which he received life.

Before this he was arrested numerous time and tried (Unsuccessfully) with various crimes against the state.

What don't you understand about the fact that he set up a terrorist organisation that killed innocent people? It's a documented FACT, why won't you accept it?
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela. He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts. F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.[/p][/quote]More left wing lies, I'm afraid.... MK started bombings in 1961. Mandela wasn't arrested until 1962 and subsequently convicted of conspiring to overthrow the government, for which he received life. Before this he was arrested numerous time and tried (Unsuccessfully) with various crimes against the state. What don't you understand about the fact that he set up a terrorist organisation that killed innocent people? It's a documented FACT, why won't you accept it? S Pance

7:41pm Fri 6 Dec 13

S Pance says...

southy wrote:
There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela.
He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts.
F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.
Also look up "mandela necklace" on the internet.

A petrol filled tyre would be placed around the neck of 'enemies' and set alight by MK supporters.

This is the reality of what happened.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela. He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts. F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.[/p][/quote]Also look up "mandela necklace" on the internet. A petrol filled tyre would be placed around the neck of 'enemies' and set alight by MK supporters. This is the reality of what happened. S Pance

7:45pm Fri 6 Dec 13

S Pance says...

Someone_New wrote:
Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin.

How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.
I haven't said a thing about the colour of anyone's skin or their race. What a stupid thing to say. I suggest you withdraw that comment forthwith.
[quote][p][bold]Someone_New[/bold] wrote: Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin. How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.[/p][/quote]I haven't said a thing about the colour of anyone's skin or their race. What a stupid thing to say. I suggest you withdraw that comment forthwith. S Pance

8:32pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Stephen J says...

S Pance wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
S Pance wrote:
Study your history, guys!

Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA.

Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not.

Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero.

If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.
The history I've read also mentions that he went to prison for a very long time and was released. You seem to have left that bit out.
That doesn't remove the fact that MK killed innocent people.
Indeed. And Mandela's support for such action, even in principle, was *why* he was imprisoned. But the South African government released him, after which he was not regarded as a terrorist. His conviction was spent. You can disagree if you like, but that was the pragmatic view of the SA government, in order for practical political progess to be made.
[quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: Study your history, guys! Nelson Mandela set up "MK" which was a terrorist organisation. Mandela authorised the killings of many innocent men, women and children. He was effectively the Gerry Adams of South Africa running the SA equivalent of the IRA. Yes, he was a charismatic guy, yes he was a powerful leader but was he this saintly figure he's often portrayed as? Certainly not. Whether the good he did balances out the evil I do not know, but please read your history books before holding this man up as some sort of hero. If you idolise this man then you should also be idolising Gerry Adams, which is just a nonsense.[/p][/quote]The history I've read also mentions that he went to prison for a very long time and was released. You seem to have left that bit out.[/p][/quote]That doesn't remove the fact that MK killed innocent people.[/p][/quote]Indeed. And Mandela's support for such action, even in principle, was *why* he was imprisoned. But the South African government released him, after which he was not regarded as a terrorist. His conviction was spent. You can disagree if you like, but that was the pragmatic view of the SA government, in order for practical political progess to be made. Stephen J

8:57pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Someone_New says...

S Pance wrote:
Someone_New wrote:
Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin.

How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.
I haven't said a thing about the colour of anyone's skin or their race. What a stupid thing to say. I suggest you withdraw that comment forthwith.
Talk about pretentious!

I wasn't referring to any of your comments, or indeed any comment on this thread. And nothing in what I said implied that I was!

Like the song might have said...
"S Pance is so vain, he probably thinks this comment's about him, you're so vain..."
[quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Someone_New[/bold] wrote: Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin. How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.[/p][/quote]I haven't said a thing about the colour of anyone's skin or their race. What a stupid thing to say. I suggest you withdraw that comment forthwith.[/p][/quote]Talk about pretentious! I wasn't referring to any of your comments, or indeed any comment on this thread. And nothing in what I said implied that I was! Like the song might have said... "S Pance is so vain, he probably thinks this comment's about him, you're so vain..." Someone_New

9:23pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Paramjit Bahia says...

southy wrote:
There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela.
He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts.
F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.
Dear Southy, to view struggle against evil system of apartheid by shouting slogans of right vs left is too simplistic. It was not only left that supported ANC and international campaign to free Nelson Mandela many from the so called right wing parties, floaters like Liberals and plenty of people from various religious groups also pressurised South African regime to release him from jail.

At the same time many from all those groups were also either unhelpful or paid only lip service or played double games and some even kept on supporting apartheid regime and British governments of both Labour and Tories refused to boycott trade with South Africa, which was argued for by most of Commonwealth, various international bodies and very large number of fair minded decent British people with varying political views.

.In Southampton Labour run Council and old Party's record reflected the duplicity and hypocrisy, which has become the nature of NuLabour.

At least those Tories who were against ANC were openly hostile but Labour was saying one thing and doing another.

Southampton Council used to fly ANC flag on guildhall and named a road Mandela Way. But I was shocked when a school girl Simmi Grewal told me that our Council was in fact receiving money from a South African linked company and using it as grants for appeasing certain councillor's puppets in so called ethnic minorities.

I had to look into those allegations of Simmi and was horrified to find those to be true.

Most Labour members of both right left and centre were rightly outraged and forced Denham and Whitehead's side kicks to allow non party member Simmi to attend GMC meeting to tell few home truths to the delegates. That ended up in party setting up an enquiry on which I and true socialist and anti racism Brian Roost were also asked to sit.

But after two meetings we realised that the leadership only wanted to kick the issue in the long grass and produce a report to whitewash most disgraceful actions of some of our colonial minded colleagues.

How could vanguard of the left Labour have been serious about confronting evil of apartheid in South Africa, when Denham and co wanted to create their own version of it within Southampton Labour Party, by creating Black Section?

Denham's shameless suggestion was heavily defeated when Albert ESCERSIO told him we are equal members of the party not second class who should only talk to fellow blacks and Roost took them head on and demanded to know how can they be serious about opposing apartheid in South Africa when they were trying to introduce their own version of the same evil in Southampton Party?

Thanks to many Socialists / Militant and trade union delegates many other racist at worse and divisive at best ideas of certain prominent dodgy people even in old Labour were crushed.

And thanks to likes of Labour MP Bryan Gould and Liberal Lord Avebury our campaign to stop Hampshire Police training officers in South Africa about how to deal with Blacks and Asians, which had the backing of Labour government's home office, was stopped.

I can give you many examples, but suffice to say that although record of our successive governments of both right and fake left on South African Apartheid is disgraceful , contribution of millions of individuals from all kinds of backgrounds and political parties helped in securing release of Mandela and destruction of the evil system of apartheid.

Destroying the evil system was only one goal of Mandela who has left all the decent people with responsibility of avoiding vendetta against old opponents and duty to do best for uniting human race and creating a fair minded compassionate society in which every individual may hold his/her sincerely held views while respecting the rights of others to express theirs in civilised manner. That is how De Klerk and Mandela managed to resolve a super serious problem
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela. He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts. F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.[/p][/quote]Dear Southy, to view struggle against evil system of apartheid by shouting slogans of right vs left is too simplistic. It was not only left that supported ANC and international campaign to free Nelson Mandela many from the so called right wing parties, floaters like Liberals and plenty of people from various religious groups also pressurised South African regime to release him from jail. At the same time many from all those groups were also either unhelpful or paid only lip service or played double games and some even kept on supporting apartheid regime and British governments of both Labour and Tories refused to boycott trade with South Africa, which was argued for by most of Commonwealth, various international bodies and very large number of fair minded decent British people with varying political views. .In Southampton Labour run Council and old Party's record reflected the duplicity and hypocrisy, which has become the nature of NuLabour. At least those Tories who were against ANC were openly hostile but Labour was saying one thing and doing another. Southampton Council used to fly ANC flag on guildhall and named a road Mandela Way. But I was shocked when a school girl Simmi Grewal told me that our Council was in fact receiving money from a South African linked company and using it as grants for appeasing certain councillor's puppets in so called ethnic minorities. I had to look into those allegations of Simmi and was horrified to find those to be true. Most Labour members of both right left and centre were rightly outraged and forced Denham and Whitehead's side kicks to allow non party member Simmi to attend GMC meeting to tell few home truths to the delegates. That ended up in party setting up an enquiry on which I and true socialist and anti racism Brian Roost were also asked to sit. But after two meetings we realised that the leadership only wanted to kick the issue in the long grass and produce a report to whitewash most disgraceful actions of some of our colonial minded colleagues. How could vanguard of the left Labour have been serious about confronting evil of apartheid in South Africa, when Denham and co wanted to create their own version of it within Southampton Labour Party, by creating Black Section? Denham's shameless suggestion was heavily defeated when Albert ESCERSIO told him we are equal members of the party not second class who should only talk to fellow blacks and Roost took them head on and demanded to know how can they be serious about opposing apartheid in South Africa when they were trying to introduce their own version of the same evil in Southampton Party? Thanks to many Socialists / Militant and trade union delegates many other racist at worse and divisive at best ideas of certain prominent dodgy people even in old Labour were crushed. And thanks to likes of Labour MP Bryan Gould and Liberal Lord Avebury our campaign to stop Hampshire Police training officers in South Africa about how to deal with Blacks and Asians, which had the backing of Labour government's home office, was stopped. I can give you many examples, but suffice to say that although record of our successive governments of both right and fake left on South African Apartheid is disgraceful , contribution of millions of individuals from all kinds of backgrounds and political parties helped in securing release of Mandela and destruction of the evil system of apartheid. Destroying the evil system was only one goal of Mandela who has left all the decent people with responsibility of avoiding vendetta against old opponents and duty to do best for uniting human race and creating a fair minded compassionate society in which every individual may hold his/her sincerely held views while respecting the rights of others to express theirs in civilised manner. That is how De Klerk and Mandela managed to resolve a super serious problem Paramjit Bahia

11:37am Sat 7 Dec 13

southy says...

Paramjit Bahia wrote:
southy wrote:
There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela.
He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts.
F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.
Dear Southy, to view struggle against evil system of apartheid by shouting slogans of right vs left is too simplistic. It was not only left that supported ANC and international campaign to free Nelson Mandela many from the so called right wing parties, floaters like Liberals and plenty of people from various religious groups also pressurised South African regime to release him from jail.

At the same time many from all those groups were also either unhelpful or paid only lip service or played double games and some even kept on supporting apartheid regime and British governments of both Labour and Tories refused to boycott trade with South Africa, which was argued for by most of Commonwealth, various international bodies and very large number of fair minded decent British people with varying political views.

.In Southampton Labour run Council and old Party's record reflected the duplicity and hypocrisy, which has become the nature of NuLabour.

At least those Tories who were against ANC were openly hostile but Labour was saying one thing and doing another.

Southampton Council used to fly ANC flag on guildhall and named a road Mandela Way. But I was shocked when a school girl Simmi Grewal told me that our Council was in fact receiving money from a South African linked company and using it as grants for appeasing certain councillor's puppets in so called ethnic minorities.

I had to look into those allegations of Simmi and was horrified to find those to be true.

Most Labour members of both right left and centre were rightly outraged and forced Denham and Whitehead's side kicks to allow non party member Simmi to attend GMC meeting to tell few home truths to the delegates. That ended up in party setting up an enquiry on which I and true socialist and anti racism Brian Roost were also asked to sit.

But after two meetings we realised that the leadership only wanted to kick the issue in the long grass and produce a report to whitewash most disgraceful actions of some of our colonial minded colleagues.

How could vanguard of the left Labour have been serious about confronting evil of apartheid in South Africa, when Denham and co wanted to create their own version of it within Southampton Labour Party, by creating Black Section?

Denham's shameless suggestion was heavily defeated when Albert ESCERSIO told him we are equal members of the party not second class who should only talk to fellow blacks and Roost took them head on and demanded to know how can they be serious about opposing apartheid in South Africa when they were trying to introduce their own version of the same evil in Southampton Party?

Thanks to many Socialists / Militant and trade union delegates many other racist at worse and divisive at best ideas of certain prominent dodgy people even in old Labour were crushed.

And thanks to likes of Labour MP Bryan Gould and Liberal Lord Avebury our campaign to stop Hampshire Police training officers in South Africa about how to deal with Blacks and Asians, which had the backing of Labour government's home office, was stopped.

I can give you many examples, but suffice to say that although record of our successive governments of both right and fake left on South African Apartheid is disgraceful , contribution of millions of individuals from all kinds of backgrounds and political parties helped in securing release of Mandela and destruction of the evil system of apartheid.

Destroying the evil system was only one goal of Mandela who has left all the decent people with responsibility of avoiding vendetta against old opponents and duty to do best for uniting human race and creating a fair minded compassionate society in which every individual may hold his/her sincerely held views while respecting the rights of others to express theirs in civilised manner. That is how De Klerk and Mandela managed to resolve a super serious problem
That,s why I said world public demand and not the left or right, but I will note on this low the Tory's leadership was in full support of the apartheid in the 80's that,s why they removed the sanctions that was put on SA.
[quote][p][bold]Paramjit Bahia[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela. He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts. F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.[/p][/quote]Dear Southy, to view struggle against evil system of apartheid by shouting slogans of right vs left is too simplistic. It was not only left that supported ANC and international campaign to free Nelson Mandela many from the so called right wing parties, floaters like Liberals and plenty of people from various religious groups also pressurised South African regime to release him from jail. At the same time many from all those groups were also either unhelpful or paid only lip service or played double games and some even kept on supporting apartheid regime and British governments of both Labour and Tories refused to boycott trade with South Africa, which was argued for by most of Commonwealth, various international bodies and very large number of fair minded decent British people with varying political views. .In Southampton Labour run Council and old Party's record reflected the duplicity and hypocrisy, which has become the nature of NuLabour. At least those Tories who were against ANC were openly hostile but Labour was saying one thing and doing another. Southampton Council used to fly ANC flag on guildhall and named a road Mandela Way. But I was shocked when a school girl Simmi Grewal told me that our Council was in fact receiving money from a South African linked company and using it as grants for appeasing certain councillor's puppets in so called ethnic minorities. I had to look into those allegations of Simmi and was horrified to find those to be true. Most Labour members of both right left and centre were rightly outraged and forced Denham and Whitehead's side kicks to allow non party member Simmi to attend GMC meeting to tell few home truths to the delegates. That ended up in party setting up an enquiry on which I and true socialist and anti racism Brian Roost were also asked to sit. But after two meetings we realised that the leadership only wanted to kick the issue in the long grass and produce a report to whitewash most disgraceful actions of some of our colonial minded colleagues. How could vanguard of the left Labour have been serious about confronting evil of apartheid in South Africa, when Denham and co wanted to create their own version of it within Southampton Labour Party, by creating Black Section? Denham's shameless suggestion was heavily defeated when Albert ESCERSIO told him we are equal members of the party not second class who should only talk to fellow blacks and Roost took them head on and demanded to know how can they be serious about opposing apartheid in South Africa when they were trying to introduce their own version of the same evil in Southampton Party? Thanks to many Socialists / Militant and trade union delegates many other racist at worse and divisive at best ideas of certain prominent dodgy people even in old Labour were crushed. And thanks to likes of Labour MP Bryan Gould and Liberal Lord Avebury our campaign to stop Hampshire Police training officers in South Africa about how to deal with Blacks and Asians, which had the backing of Labour government's home office, was stopped. I can give you many examples, but suffice to say that although record of our successive governments of both right and fake left on South African Apartheid is disgraceful , contribution of millions of individuals from all kinds of backgrounds and political parties helped in securing release of Mandela and destruction of the evil system of apartheid. Destroying the evil system was only one goal of Mandela who has left all the decent people with responsibility of avoiding vendetta against old opponents and duty to do best for uniting human race and creating a fair minded compassionate society in which every individual may hold his/her sincerely held views while respecting the rights of others to express theirs in civilised manner. That is how De Klerk and Mandela managed to resolve a super serious problem[/p][/quote]That,s why I said world public demand and not the left or right, but I will note on this low the Tory's leadership was in full support of the apartheid in the 80's that,s why they removed the sanctions that was put on SA. southy

11:57am Sat 7 Dec 13

southy says...

S Pance wrote:
southy wrote:
There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela.
He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts.
F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.
More left wing lies, I'm afraid....

MK started bombings in 1961. Mandela wasn't arrested until 1962 and subsequently convicted of conspiring to overthrow the government, for which he received life.

Before this he was arrested numerous time and tried (Unsuccessfully) with various crimes against the state.

What don't you understand about the fact that he set up a terrorist organisation that killed innocent people? It's a documented FACT, why won't you accept it?
He was arrested a number of times between 1956 to 61 and went to court a few times Mandela was a lawyer and represented a number of political party,s on the left, He was arrested the last time in 1961 and kept in Rivoia court prisons till the trial in 1962, He was a Political Prisoner, he spent time in these prisons Rivoia Court prison, Robben Island, Pollsmoor Prison and Victor Verster Prison. And spent a total of 29 years in prison.
[quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: There is a lot of Right wing false propaganda about Mandela. He was arrested on Political grounds, while he was imprison waiting to be charged and he spent a number of years in a prison before his trial came to court, He spent 27 years on Robin Island Prison, the acts of violence started while he was in prison waiting to go to trial, he had no control over these acts. F.W. de Klerk had no bearing on his release, the South African Government ended up giving way to world public demand.[/p][/quote]More left wing lies, I'm afraid.... MK started bombings in 1961. Mandela wasn't arrested until 1962 and subsequently convicted of conspiring to overthrow the government, for which he received life. Before this he was arrested numerous time and tried (Unsuccessfully) with various crimes against the state. What don't you understand about the fact that he set up a terrorist organisation that killed innocent people? It's a documented FACT, why won't you accept it?[/p][/quote]He was arrested a number of times between 1956 to 61 and went to court a few times Mandela was a lawyer and represented a number of political party,s on the left, He was arrested the last time in 1961 and kept in Rivoia court prisons till the trial in 1962, He was a Political Prisoner, he spent time in these prisons Rivoia Court prison, Robben Island, Pollsmoor Prison and Victor Verster Prison. And spent a total of 29 years in prison. southy

3:48pm Sat 7 Dec 13

S Pance says...

Paramjit Bahia wrote:
Someone_New wrote:
S Pance wrote:
Someone_New wrote:
Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin.

How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.
I haven't said a thing about the colour of anyone's skin or their race. What a stupid thing to say. I suggest you withdraw that comment forthwith.
Talk about pretentious!

I wasn't referring to any of your comments, or indeed any comment on this thread. And nothing in what I said implied that I was!

Like the song might have said...
"S Pance is so vain, he probably thinks this comment's about him, you're so vain..."
I understand the Jamican saying is "If you throw a stone in pig-sties one that makes noise has been hit." Obviously by posting a well observed view about some contributions, but without naming anybody, you may have hit the bull's eye.
So are you accusing me of being racist on a public forum? If so, that is a very serious allegation.
[quote][p][bold]Paramjit Bahia[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Someone_New[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Someone_New[/bold] wrote: Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin. How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.[/p][/quote]I haven't said a thing about the colour of anyone's skin or their race. What a stupid thing to say. I suggest you withdraw that comment forthwith.[/p][/quote]Talk about pretentious! I wasn't referring to any of your comments, or indeed any comment on this thread. And nothing in what I said implied that I was! Like the song might have said... "S Pance is so vain, he probably thinks this comment's about him, you're so vain..."[/p][/quote]I understand the Jamican saying is "If you throw a stone in pig-sties one that makes noise has been hit." Obviously by posting a well observed view about some contributions, but without naming anybody, you may have hit the bull's eye.[/p][/quote]So are you accusing me of being racist on a public forum? If so, that is a very serious allegation. S Pance

9:44pm Sat 7 Dec 13

Paramjit Bahia says...

S Pance wrote:
Paramjit Bahia wrote:
Someone_New wrote:
S Pance wrote:
Someone_New wrote:
Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin.

How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.
I haven't said a thing about the colour of anyone's skin or their race. What a stupid thing to say. I suggest you withdraw that comment forthwith.
Talk about pretentious!

I wasn't referring to any of your comments, or indeed any comment on this thread. And nothing in what I said implied that I was!

Like the song might have said...
"S Pance is so vain, he probably thinks this comment's about him, you're so vain..."
I understand the Jamican saying is "If you throw a stone in pig-sties one that makes noise has been hit." Obviously by posting a well observed view about some contributions, but without naming anybody, you may have hit the bull's eye.
So are you accusing me of being racist on a public forum? If so, that is a very serious allegation.
I don't even know who you are, so how could you possibaly be thinking that I am accusing you of being a racist? In fact I'd replied to someone-new's comment not yours. Reading Someone_New's comment I do not believe that even he had you in mind in his first comment, I think he'd only made general observation. In case you may have some guilty conscience that is matter for you and you alone neither its any of of my business nor I intend to enter into any discussion regarding Mandela with you because I always have and will have the highest admiration for Gandhi, King and Mandeal
[quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Paramjit Bahia[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Someone_New[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Someone_New[/bold] wrote: Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin. How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.[/p][/quote]I haven't said a thing about the colour of anyone's skin or their race. What a stupid thing to say. I suggest you withdraw that comment forthwith.[/p][/quote]Talk about pretentious! I wasn't referring to any of your comments, or indeed any comment on this thread. And nothing in what I said implied that I was! Like the song might have said... "S Pance is so vain, he probably thinks this comment's about him, you're so vain..."[/p][/quote]I understand the Jamican saying is "If you throw a stone in pig-sties one that makes noise has been hit." Obviously by posting a well observed view about some contributions, but without naming anybody, you may have hit the bull's eye.[/p][/quote]So are you accusing me of being racist on a public forum? If so, that is a very serious allegation.[/p][/quote]I don't even know who you are, so how could you possibaly be thinking that I am accusing you of being a racist? In fact I'd replied to someone-new's comment not yours. Reading Someone_New's comment I do not believe that even he had you in mind in his first comment, I think he'd only made general observation. In case you may have some guilty conscience that is matter for you and you alone neither its any of of my business nor I intend to enter into any discussion regarding Mandela with you because I always have and will have the highest admiration for Gandhi, King and Mandeal Paramjit Bahia

10:22pm Sat 7 Dec 13

Someone_New says...

Paramjit Bahia wrote:
S Pance wrote:
Paramjit Bahia wrote:
Someone_New wrote:
S Pance wrote:
Someone_New wrote:
Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin.

How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.
I haven't said a thing about the colour of anyone's skin or their race. What a stupid thing to say. I suggest you withdraw that comment forthwith.
Talk about pretentious!

I wasn't referring to any of your comments, or indeed any comment on this thread. And nothing in what I said implied that I was!

Like the song might have said...
"S Pance is so vain, he probably thinks this comment's about him, you're so vain..."
I understand the Jamican saying is "If you throw a stone in pig-sties one that makes noise has been hit." Obviously by posting a well observed view about some contributions, but without naming anybody, you may have hit the bull's eye.
So are you accusing me of being racist on a public forum? If so, that is a very serious allegation.
I don't even know who you are, so how could you possibaly be thinking that I am accusing you of being a racist? In fact I'd replied to someone-new's comment not yours. Reading Someone_New's comment I do not believe that even he had you in mind in his first comment, I think he'd only made general observation. In case you may have some guilty conscience that is matter for you and you alone neither its any of of my business nor I intend to enter into any discussion regarding Mandela with you because I always have and will have the highest admiration for Gandhi, King and Mandeal
Yes that's correct, I certainly didn't have his comments in mind, instead was thinking of some of the stuff we've read on this site in the past... but I think S Pance knew his comments were controversial and he was just looking to retaliate against all the replies, whether they were about him or not! Well, seems he got his wish!
[quote][p][bold]Paramjit Bahia[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Paramjit Bahia[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Someone_New[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]S Pance[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Someone_New[/bold] wrote: Mandela campaigned against the discrimination of people which was based on nothing more than their race and the colour of their skin. How sad that - based on, for example, comments we often see on this very website - the campaign seems to have failed.[/p][/quote]I haven't said a thing about the colour of anyone's skin or their race. What a stupid thing to say. I suggest you withdraw that comment forthwith.[/p][/quote]Talk about pretentious! I wasn't referring to any of your comments, or indeed any comment on this thread. And nothing in what I said implied that I was! Like the song might have said... "S Pance is so vain, he probably thinks this comment's about him, you're so vain..."[/p][/quote]I understand the Jamican saying is "If you throw a stone in pig-sties one that makes noise has been hit." Obviously by posting a well observed view about some contributions, but without naming anybody, you may have hit the bull's eye.[/p][/quote]So are you accusing me of being racist on a public forum? If so, that is a very serious allegation.[/p][/quote]I don't even know who you are, so how could you possibaly be thinking that I am accusing you of being a racist? In fact I'd replied to someone-new's comment not yours. Reading Someone_New's comment I do not believe that even he had you in mind in his first comment, I think he'd only made general observation. In case you may have some guilty conscience that is matter for you and you alone neither its any of of my business nor I intend to enter into any discussion regarding Mandela with you because I always have and will have the highest admiration for Gandhi, King and Mandeal[/p][/quote]Yes that's correct, I certainly didn't have his comments in mind, instead was thinking of some of the stuff we've read on this site in the past... but I think S Pance knew his comments were controversial and he was just looking to retaliate against all the replies, whether they were about him or not! Well, seems he got his wish! Someone_New

1:58pm Sun 8 Dec 13

Dan Soton says...

South Africa should be renamed Madiba..


Take three world leaders Obama, Blair and (R.I.P) Mandela all of whom went to university to study law, they are/were all idealist and in many ways ruthless, you could say they were all taped out of the same mold..

But only one will remain a people's hero forever and that man is (R.I.P) Nelson Mandela..



,,,
South Africa should be renamed Madiba.. Take three world leaders Obama, Blair and (R.I.P) Mandela all of whom went to university to study law, they are/were all idealist and in many ways ruthless, you could say they were all taped out of the same mold.. But only one will remain a people's hero forever and that man is (R.I.P) Nelson Mandela.. ,,, Dan Soton

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