Landlords to fight eviction by pub giant

Landlords to fight eviction by pub giant

Landlords to fight eviction by pub giant

First published in News
Last updated
Daily Echo: Photograph of the Author by , Reporter

WE will not be moved.

Those are the words of a Hampshire couple who say they are being kicked out of their historic pub after a row between them and pub giant Enterprise Inns.

Sallie and Paul Adams, who run the Fluer De Lys pub in Pilley in the New Forest, have told how they were ordered to pack their bags after they were unable to pay the rent.

However the couple are defiant and say they will stay as they believe the reason they have been left out of pocket is down to Enterprise Inns making them pay for repairs that they should have carried out.

The Fleur De Lys is believed to be the oldest pub in the New Forest, and dates back to the 12th century.

When Sallie and Paul purchased it back in spring 2013, the Grade II listed building needed a range of repairs. These included a leaky thatch, which has water seeping through, mould and interiors that were unpainted.

They also say that Enterprise are making them pay rent for the upstairs area which is ‘condemned’ and deemed uninhabitable as it does not have a fire exit or any smoke alarms – which they say Enterprise knew about but did not tell them.

Ultimately the couple believe that this has cost them thousands of pounds, which has seen them fall behind on their rent and they are angry that Enterprise wants to kick them out by February 24, and are seeking a new publican to run the pub.

Sallie said: “They will have to drag us out of this pub kicking and screaming. This pub means everything to us we are not going anywhere.”

“I wish they gave us more time to get things in order because it is their fault that we missed payments. If we had three months to get things sorted then we would be able to pay back the rent.

She added: “They should have been upfront about the state of this place and more caring about the publicans. We have done so much work to put this place right and we want to continue to do this work.”

Residents in the village gathered to support the pub .

Among them was Janet Corbin, 71, from Pilley, who said: “People in the village are behind the landlords. They have done a great job and have worked very hard and it is a very sad situation.”

Paul and Sallie Adams say they will be taking legal action against Enterprise Inns and they said they will live in the pub if necessary as squatters.

A statement from Enterprise Inns said: “We do not discuss the private and confidential dealings between the company and our publicans, however we are working very hard to clarify matters as soon as possible.”

Comments (18)

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6:41am Thu 20 Feb 14

skeptik says...

Odd that these big chains have so much trouble with pubs - maybe they should stand outside and look in at their methods - the problem might be there. Remember a good many a pub - when the interior decorators set about them with a cornucopia of tat - turning a traditional pub into a designer 'traditional pub' friendly landlords replaced by 'trained managers' - pub chains are not pubs - pubs were enjoyable for the difference - When you have lost your Inns - go drown your empty selves for you will have lost the last of England - Hilaire Beloch. Not been in a pub for years and have not been in a chain pub for more than that.
Odd that these big chains have so much trouble with pubs - maybe they should stand outside and look in at their methods - the problem might be there. Remember a good many a pub - when the interior decorators set about them with a cornucopia of tat - turning a traditional pub into a designer 'traditional pub' friendly landlords replaced by 'trained managers' - pub chains are not pubs - pubs were enjoyable for the difference - When you have lost your Inns - go drown your empty selves for you will have lost the last of England - Hilaire Beloch. Not been in a pub for years and have not been in a chain pub for more than that. skeptik
  • Score: 11

6:49am Thu 20 Feb 14

10 Minute Man says...

I've always thought that a Tesco Express would look nice there.
I've always thought that a Tesco Express would look nice there. 10 Minute Man
  • Score: 1

7:07am Thu 20 Feb 14

Norwegian Saint says...

I don't miss much about Britain but a good old fashioned, tucked away, public house is one thing I loved. (and it is nothing to do with the £10 a pint prices here!)
Good luck to the landlords!
I don't miss much about Britain but a good old fashioned, tucked away, public house is one thing I loved. (and it is nothing to do with the £10 a pint prices here!) Good luck to the landlords! Norwegian Saint
  • Score: 21

8:06am Thu 20 Feb 14

loosehead says...

Enterprise closing down pubs is at it again!
Enterprise closing down pubs is at it again! loosehead
  • Score: 16

8:21am Thu 20 Feb 14

Dai Rear says...

I hope that they used a solicitor because if they did, and the solicitor didn't underline the fact that these pub chains do short leases which are none the less full repairing leases then their recourse may lie with the solicitor's professional indemnity insurer. Of course if they used Licensed Conveyancers they may struggle.. If they just signed up without any advice I'm afraid they've had it. For example "They also say that Enterprise are making them pay rent for the upstairs area which is ‘condemned’ and deemed uninhabitable as it does not have a fire exit or any smoke alarms – which they say Enterprise knew about but did not tell them. " They are deemed to be business people. It's not a domestic tenancy. It's up to them to check these things before signing. A solicitor would have made that very clear to them.
These pub chains grew because of the ludicrous Beer Orders which I'm ashamed to say were introduced by a Conservative government instead of the eminent common sense of a slight amendment to the Licensing Act forbidding Justices to grant a licence renewal if it meant 51% of the licences in the Division were tied to one brewer. We've come a long way since then and indeed one of these horrible pub chains is in hock to financiers for billions. Let's hope they all go the way of all Bad Ideas.
PS Norwegian Saint why do your Scandinavian neighbours think it's a good idea to slaughter a little giraffe in front of children? That's about the weirdest thing I've heard this millennium.
I hope that they used a solicitor because if they did, and the solicitor didn't underline the fact that these pub chains do short leases which are none the less full repairing leases then their recourse may lie with the solicitor's professional indemnity insurer. Of course if they used Licensed Conveyancers they may struggle.. If they just signed up without any advice I'm afraid they've had it. For example "They also say that Enterprise are making them pay rent for the upstairs area which is ‘condemned’ and deemed uninhabitable as it does not have a fire exit or any smoke alarms – which they say Enterprise knew about but did not tell them. " They are deemed to be business people. It's not a domestic tenancy. It's up to them to check these things before signing. A solicitor would have made that very clear to them. These pub chains grew because of the ludicrous Beer Orders which I'm ashamed to say were introduced by a Conservative government instead of the eminent common sense of a slight amendment to the Licensing Act forbidding Justices to grant a licence renewal if it meant 51% of the licences in the Division were tied to one brewer. We've come a long way since then and indeed one of these horrible pub chains is in hock to financiers for billions. Let's hope they all go the way of all Bad Ideas. PS Norwegian Saint why do your Scandinavian neighbours think it's a good idea to slaughter a little giraffe in front of children? That's about the weirdest thing I've heard this millennium. Dai Rear
  • Score: 4

9:09am Thu 20 Feb 14

Quentin Heslop says...

It's not uncommon for tenants to find themselves in this situation. Most commercial leases are Fully Repairing and Insuring (FRI) and that means the tenant is liable to put and keep the building 'in repair'. It doesn't matter what condition it is in at the outset, it can be falling down but if the lease is FRI the tenant can be required to put it right.

At the end of the lease, the building has to be handed back in good repair, again with no reference to how poor it may have been at the outset. If it's not in good order, the landlord can sue for its loss of value as a result.

Anyone thinking of signing an FRI lease beware!
It's not uncommon for tenants to find themselves in this situation. Most commercial leases are Fully Repairing and Insuring (FRI) and that means the tenant is liable to put and keep the building 'in repair'. It doesn't matter what condition it is in at the outset, it can be falling down but if the lease is FRI the tenant can be required to put it right. At the end of the lease, the building has to be handed back in good repair, again with no reference to how poor it may have been at the outset. If it's not in good order, the landlord can sue for its loss of value as a result. Anyone thinking of signing an FRI lease beware! Quentin Heslop
  • Score: 8

9:09am Thu 20 Feb 14

KSO16R says...

Dai Rear wrote:
I hope that they used a solicitor because if they did, and the solicitor didn't underline the fact that these pub chains do short leases which are none the less full repairing leases then their recourse may lie with the solicitor's professional indemnity insurer. Of course if they used Licensed Conveyancers they may struggle.. If they just signed up without any advice I'm afraid they've had it. For example "They also say that Enterprise are making them pay rent for the upstairs area which is ‘condemned’ and deemed uninhabitable as it does not have a fire exit or any smoke alarms – which they say Enterprise knew about but did not tell them. " They are deemed to be business people. It's not a domestic tenancy. It's up to them to check these things before signing. A solicitor would have made that very clear to them.
These pub chains grew because of the ludicrous Beer Orders which I'm ashamed to say were introduced by a Conservative government instead of the eminent common sense of a slight amendment to the Licensing Act forbidding Justices to grant a licence renewal if it meant 51% of the licences in the Division were tied to one brewer. We've come a long way since then and indeed one of these horrible pub chains is in hock to financiers for billions. Let's hope they all go the way of all Bad Ideas.
PS Norwegian Saint why do your Scandinavian neighbours think it's a good idea to slaughter a little giraffe in front of children? That's about the weirdest thing I've heard this millennium.
Spot on !
[quote][p][bold]Dai Rear[/bold] wrote: I hope that they used a solicitor because if they did, and the solicitor didn't underline the fact that these pub chains do short leases which are none the less full repairing leases then their recourse may lie with the solicitor's professional indemnity insurer. Of course if they used Licensed Conveyancers they may struggle.. If they just signed up without any advice I'm afraid they've had it. For example "They also say that Enterprise are making them pay rent for the upstairs area which is ‘condemned’ and deemed uninhabitable as it does not have a fire exit or any smoke alarms – which they say Enterprise knew about but did not tell them. " They are deemed to be business people. It's not a domestic tenancy. It's up to them to check these things before signing. A solicitor would have made that very clear to them. These pub chains grew because of the ludicrous Beer Orders which I'm ashamed to say were introduced by a Conservative government instead of the eminent common sense of a slight amendment to the Licensing Act forbidding Justices to grant a licence renewal if it meant 51% of the licences in the Division were tied to one brewer. We've come a long way since then and indeed one of these horrible pub chains is in hock to financiers for billions. Let's hope they all go the way of all Bad Ideas. PS Norwegian Saint why do your Scandinavian neighbours think it's a good idea to slaughter a little giraffe in front of children? That's about the weirdest thing I've heard this millennium.[/p][/quote]Spot on ! KSO16R
  • Score: 3

9:10am Thu 20 Feb 14

KSO16R says...

Spot on !
Spot on ! KSO16R
  • Score: 2

11:07am Thu 20 Feb 14

charrlee says...

Commenters here have given us some very interesting information about the pitfalls of this sort of thing. Paying rent and having to do your own repairs seems a bit off, so who would find an opportunity like this attractive?
Commenters here have given us some very interesting information about the pitfalls of this sort of thing. Paying rent and having to do your own repairs seems a bit off, so who would find an opportunity like this attractive? charrlee
  • Score: 6

11:32am Thu 20 Feb 14

SwedeSaint says...

Dai Rear wrote:
I hope that they used a solicitor because if they did, and the solicitor didn't underline the fact that these pub chains do short leases which are none the less full repairing leases then their recourse may lie with the solicitor's professional indemnity insurer. Of course if they used Licensed Conveyancers they may struggle.. If they just signed up without any advice I'm afraid they've had it. For example "They also say that Enterprise are making them pay rent for the upstairs area which is ‘condemned’ and deemed uninhabitable as it does not have a fire exit or any smoke alarms – which they say Enterprise knew about but did not tell them. " They are deemed to be business people. It's not a domestic tenancy. It's up to them to check these things before signing. A solicitor would have made that very clear to them.
These pub chains grew because of the ludicrous Beer Orders which I'm ashamed to say were introduced by a Conservative government instead of the eminent common sense of a slight amendment to the Licensing Act forbidding Justices to grant a licence renewal if it meant 51% of the licences in the Division were tied to one brewer. We've come a long way since then and indeed one of these horrible pub chains is in hock to financiers for billions. Let's hope they all go the way of all Bad Ideas.
PS Norwegian Saint why do your Scandinavian neighbours think it's a good idea to slaughter a little giraffe in front of children? That's about the weirdest thing I've heard this millennium.
The Giraffe thing was an educational exercise in anatomy for Zoo visitors - Parents had the choice to let their children watch.
Many parents make odd choices for their children, including parents in the UK
[quote][p][bold]Dai Rear[/bold] wrote: I hope that they used a solicitor because if they did, and the solicitor didn't underline the fact that these pub chains do short leases which are none the less full repairing leases then their recourse may lie with the solicitor's professional indemnity insurer. Of course if they used Licensed Conveyancers they may struggle.. If they just signed up without any advice I'm afraid they've had it. For example "They also say that Enterprise are making them pay rent for the upstairs area which is ‘condemned’ and deemed uninhabitable as it does not have a fire exit or any smoke alarms – which they say Enterprise knew about but did not tell them. " They are deemed to be business people. It's not a domestic tenancy. It's up to them to check these things before signing. A solicitor would have made that very clear to them. These pub chains grew because of the ludicrous Beer Orders which I'm ashamed to say were introduced by a Conservative government instead of the eminent common sense of a slight amendment to the Licensing Act forbidding Justices to grant a licence renewal if it meant 51% of the licences in the Division were tied to one brewer. We've come a long way since then and indeed one of these horrible pub chains is in hock to financiers for billions. Let's hope they all go the way of all Bad Ideas. PS Norwegian Saint why do your Scandinavian neighbours think it's a good idea to slaughter a little giraffe in front of children? That's about the weirdest thing I've heard this millennium.[/p][/quote]The Giraffe thing was an educational exercise in anatomy for Zoo visitors - Parents had the choice to let their children watch. Many parents make odd choices for their children, including parents in the UK SwedeSaint
  • Score: 2

1:46pm Thu 20 Feb 14

Quentin Heslop says...

charrlee wrote:
Commenters here have given us some very interesting information about the pitfalls of this sort of thing. Paying rent and having to do your own repairs seems a bit off, so who would find an opportunity like this attractive?
Good point but actually the greater proportion of commercial leases are on this basis. Walk down any High Street, business park or trading estate and nearly all will be FRI. Some tenants might have been able to limit their liability with a schedule of condition only if the Landlord agrees. Landlords resist those on the basis it effects the freehold value of their investment.

Even where a tenant has say only an internal repair liability, it is normal the landlord to do external repairs and charge them back under a service charge.

It's not all one way; tenants do go bust or run off leaving properties needing expenditure and it is the way things are done here.

Leases do set these things out albeit in 'legalese'. Just make sure you really know what you are signing up to!
[quote][p][bold]charrlee[/bold] wrote: Commenters here have given us some very interesting information about the pitfalls of this sort of thing. Paying rent and having to do your own repairs seems a bit off, so who would find an opportunity like this attractive?[/p][/quote]Good point but actually the greater proportion of commercial leases are on this basis. Walk down any High Street, business park or trading estate and nearly all will be FRI. Some tenants might have been able to limit their liability with a schedule of condition only if the Landlord agrees. Landlords resist those on the basis it effects the freehold value of their investment. Even where a tenant has say only an internal repair liability, it is normal the landlord to do external repairs and charge them back under a service charge. It's not all one way; tenants do go bust or run off leaving properties needing expenditure and it is the way things are done here. Leases do set these things out albeit in 'legalese'. Just make sure you really know what you are signing up to! Quentin Heslop
  • Score: 0

4:18pm Thu 20 Feb 14

Dai Rear says...

Quentin Heslop wrote:
charrlee wrote:
Commenters here have given us some very interesting information about the pitfalls of this sort of thing. Paying rent and having to do your own repairs seems a bit off, so who would find an opportunity like this attractive?
Good point but actually the greater proportion of commercial leases are on this basis. Walk down any High Street, business park or trading estate and nearly all will be FRI. Some tenants might have been able to limit their liability with a schedule of condition only if the Landlord agrees. Landlords resist those on the basis it effects the freehold value of their investment.

Even where a tenant has say only an internal repair liability, it is normal the landlord to do external repairs and charge them back under a service charge.

It's not all one way; tenants do go bust or run off leaving properties needing expenditure and it is the way things are done here.

Leases do set these things out albeit in 'legalese'. Just make sure you really know what you are signing up to!
I think that what tends to be objectionable in the type of draft lease we're talking about here is that it tends to be a short term, 3 or 4 year job. The "industry standard" needs to be 21 years for an FRI. Quentin, you are right about caveat emptor of course but a good solicitor from Wheatley, Oxfordshire told me of a chain whose representative had actively discouraged his clients from seeking his advice about an absurdly onerous draft lease. Fortunately they were not so silly. But I fear that some of these organisations are playing on the naivety of those using a lump sum to become self-employed.
[quote][p][bold]Quentin Heslop[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]charrlee[/bold] wrote: Commenters here have given us some very interesting information about the pitfalls of this sort of thing. Paying rent and having to do your own repairs seems a bit off, so who would find an opportunity like this attractive?[/p][/quote]Good point but actually the greater proportion of commercial leases are on this basis. Walk down any High Street, business park or trading estate and nearly all will be FRI. Some tenants might have been able to limit their liability with a schedule of condition only if the Landlord agrees. Landlords resist those on the basis it effects the freehold value of their investment. Even where a tenant has say only an internal repair liability, it is normal the landlord to do external repairs and charge them back under a service charge. It's not all one way; tenants do go bust or run off leaving properties needing expenditure and it is the way things are done here. Leases do set these things out albeit in 'legalese'. Just make sure you really know what you are signing up to![/p][/quote]I think that what tends to be objectionable in the type of draft lease we're talking about here is that it tends to be a short term, 3 or 4 year job. The "industry standard" needs to be 21 years for an FRI. Quentin, you are right about caveat emptor of course but a good solicitor from Wheatley, Oxfordshire told me of a chain whose representative had actively discouraged his clients from seeking his advice about an absurdly onerous draft lease. Fortunately they were not so silly. But I fear that some of these organisations are playing on the naivety of those using a lump sum to become self-employed. Dai Rear
  • Score: 0

4:27pm Thu 20 Feb 14

mickey01 says...

the words losing and battle spring to mind on this one i'm afraid david against goliath are the other ones
the words losing and battle spring to mind on this one i'm afraid david against goliath are the other ones mickey01
  • Score: 3

7:32pm Thu 20 Feb 14

Frank28 says...

That pub had no Landlord for a long time - no you know why. The rent is around £40,000 year, plus In-goings, plus rates, electricity, wages, food, alcohol etc. Located on a country lane, it doesn't have enough passing trade to make a profit It does cost a lot of money to keep an old ship afloat, and the Fleur De Lys is a bottomless pit when it comes to upkeep and maintenance. When a pub stays empty for a long time, it is a loss to the community.
That pub had no Landlord for a long time - no you know why. The rent is around £40,000 year, plus In-goings, plus rates, electricity, wages, food, alcohol etc. Located on a country lane, it doesn't have enough passing trade to make a profit It does cost a lot of money to keep an old ship afloat, and the Fleur De Lys is a bottomless pit when it comes to upkeep and maintenance. When a pub stays empty for a long time, it is a loss to the community. Frank28
  • Score: 2

12:04am Fri 21 Feb 14

Dave Of The South says...

10 Minute Man wrote:
I've always thought that a Tesco Express would look nice there.
nah, in that area you'd need a Sainsbury's Local
[quote][p][bold]10 Minute Man[/bold] wrote: I've always thought that a Tesco Express would look nice there.[/p][/quote]nah, in that area you'd need a Sainsbury's Local Dave Of The South
  • Score: 2

6:36am Fri 21 Feb 14

loosehead says...

Dave Of The South wrote:
10 Minute Man wrote:
I've always thought that a Tesco Express would look nice there.
nah, in that area you'd need a Sainsbury's Local
Maybe you'd prefer it to have a Pompey post code hey!
[quote][p][bold]Dave Of The South[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]10 Minute Man[/bold] wrote: I've always thought that a Tesco Express would look nice there.[/p][/quote]nah, in that area you'd need a Sainsbury's Local[/p][/quote]Maybe you'd prefer it to have a Pompey post code hey! loosehead
  • Score: 0

4:35am Sat 22 Feb 14

dolomiteman says...

loosehead wrote:
Enterprise closing down pubs is at it again!
Did you even read the article?
[quote][p][bold]loosehead[/bold] wrote: Enterprise closing down pubs is at it again![/p][/quote]Did you even read the article? dolomiteman
  • Score: 0

7:39am Sat 22 Feb 14

loosehead says...

dolomiteman wrote:
loosehead wrote:
Enterprise closing down pubs is at it again!
Did you even read the article?
i did but i've read several articles about enterprise properties & this seems the usual format to the closure of one of their pubs
[quote][p][bold]dolomiteman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]loosehead[/bold] wrote: Enterprise closing down pubs is at it again![/p][/quote]Did you even read the article?[/p][/quote]i did but i've read several articles about enterprise properties & this seems the usual format to the closure of one of their pubs loosehead
  • Score: 0

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