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9:48am Friday 21st March 2008
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OUTRAGED Southampton residents are today demanding answers on controversial moves to charge them to park outside their own homes.
The plans have been branded "disgraceful" and "unfair" by opposition groups and residents' association leaders.
Now they are calling on council parking bosses to reveal the truth behind their proposals.
Today the Daily Echo launches our Parking Mad campaign calling on city residents to join the fight for a U-turn on the plans.
It comes after the city council's Labour and Lib Dem Cabinet earlier this week gave the go-ahead for staff to look into charging residents to park outside their own homes.
Under the radical shake-up, residents will have to pay for parking permits - the first is currently free - while new parking zones in the city centre have been ruled out.
Since it was approved, the Daily Echo website has been flooded with comments from furious car owners.
Another option is for residents to use multi-storey car parks which currently cost £2 a night.
The head of the city's residents' associations, Peter Wirgman, has condemned the plans and estimates the new permits could cost residents as much as £50 a year.
Today campaigners against the move are calling on the council to answer three main questions:
Cllr Gavin Dick, Tory transport spokesman, said: "Slipping through a policy which means residents will be taxed even more is absolutely disgraceful.
"They haven't said where, when or how. Many people's permits will be up for renewal again in April. It's absolute confusion."
Initially a council statement said the charges were due to be implemented on March 25 but that date has since been revealed as the cut-off time for the strategy to be called in for scrutiny.
A council spokesman could not give any answers on where the new scheme would apply; how much the permits would cost and when it would be implemented.
She added that nothing would be decided until the item reappeared before Cabinet members but was unable to confirm when that would be.
The parking policy was agreed following recommendations from transport consultants who found that residents' parking schemes incurred a small loss and were being subsidised by onstreet parking machines.
Jill Baston, Cabinet member for planning and transportation, said: "We will be looking at ways of making residents' parking self-funding. Many other cities charge for all residents' parking permits so this is one option we will be considering."
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Observer, says...
11:07am Fri 21 Mar 08
Di Healey, Shirley, Southampton says...
11:21am Fri 21 Mar 08
Sarah-Jane Pick, Woolston says...
11:53am Fri 21 Mar 08
Good Idea, Hythe says...
12:03pm Fri 21 Mar 08
residents' parking schemes incurred a small loss and were being subsidised by onstreet parking machines
sailor sam, portsmouth says...
1:09pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Put Put, at the side of the road says...
1:36pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Steve, Southampton says...
1:38pm Fri 21 Mar 08
sailor sam wrote:Well someone's just gone off on a random rant, without knowing what he's on about.
My property ends at my boundary wall, and does NOT include either the pavement or the road outside! I pay my road tax, so am entitled to park in the street, where there are no restrictions, but have no more rights to park outside my house than any other payer of road tax! Who maintains the pavement and road outside of people's houses? Not the owner of the house! With all the rubbish in the streets, I bet there are precious few that will take a broom out to clean up, yet they think it their divine right to park their car there! What about the two and three car families? What do they do? Stack them, one on top of the other outside their house! Of course not, they go and park outside someone else's house! The answer? Either move or rent a garage, but don't think you own the road outside your house - it belongs to us all!
i know best, Dorset says...
1:52pm Fri 21 Mar 08
baz, southampton says...
3:19pm Fri 21 Mar 08
baz, southampton says...
3:26pm Fri 21 Mar 08
sailor sam, portsmouth says...
3:31pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Steve wrote:I assume that it is not just the home owners that have to pay, but ANYONE parking there will have to pay!
sailor sam wrote: My property ends at my boundary wall, and does NOT include either the pavement or the road outside! I pay my road tax, so am entitled to park in the street, where there are no restrictions, but have no more rights to park outside my house than any other payer of road tax! Who maintains the pavement and road outside of people\'s houses? Not the owner of the house! With all the rubbish in the streets, I bet there are precious few that will take a broom out to clean up, yet they think it their divine right to park their car there! What about the two and three car families? What do they do? Stack them, one on top of the other outside their house! Of course not, they go and park outside someone else\'s house! The answer? Either move or rent a garage, but don\'t think you own the road outside your house - it belongs to us all!Well someone\'s just gone off on a random rant, without knowing what he\'s on about. These homeowners will be asked to pay to park outside their homes. As you point out, everyone has a right to park there - but with these proposals, not everyone will. So why are you against it?
Steve, says...
3:36pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Denzil, Chilworth says...
3:53pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Long Shanks, Rat Island says...
3:58pm Fri 21 Mar 08
meme, hants says...
4:41pm Fri 21 Mar 08
sailor sam wrote:Sailor sam,,, I for one agree with you. Well said.
My property ends at my boundary wall, and does NOT include either the pavement or the road outside! I pay my road tax, so am entitled to park in the street, where there are no restrictions, but have no more rights to park outside my house than any other payer of road tax! Who maintains the pavement and road outside of people's houses? Not the owner of the house! With all the rubbish in the streets, I bet there are precious few that will take a broom out to clean up, yet they think it their divine right to park their car there! What about the two and three car families? What do they do? Stack them, one on top of the other outside their house! Of course not, they go and park outside someone else's house! The answer? Either move or rent a garage, but don't think you own the road outside your house - it belongs to us all!
paul b, says...
6:25pm Fri 21 Mar 08
sailor sam, portsmouth says...
6:46pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Steve wrote:Apoligies Steve, have re-read the piece, and see that residents will, in all probability, have to pay £50 per year for a resident's parking ticket!
But Sam, you've once again missed the point. This is about parking permits, not meters. Visitors won't be able to get them - they are only ever for residents. Everyone has paid for their road tax, so everyone owns the road. But some people will have to pay an extra £50 to park their car on it. How is that fair?
Jane, Southampton says...
6:57pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Ciaran, says...
7:08pm Fri 21 Mar 08
sailor sam wrote:Well many areas of the city already have parking permits - which are free for the first car in any household.
Steve wrote:Apoligies Steve, have re-read the piece, and see that residents will, in all probability, have to pay £50 per year for a resident's parking ticket!
But Sam, you've once again missed the point. This is about parking permits, not meters. Visitors won't be able to get them - they are only ever for residents. Everyone has paid for their road tax, so everyone owns the road. But some people will have to pay an extra £50 to park their car on it. How is that fair?
For less than £1 per week, non-residents will not be able to park, so would be able to, more or less, guarantee a parking spot outside your house!
That, to my mind, is not a bad deal, and cheaper than £2 per night in the car park!
It is the 2 and 3 car households that will be hit, and maybe it will stop those driving commercial vehicles, that bring it home and park in the street!
It may also have the effect of making people put their cars in their garages instead of leaving them on the road!
At present, it would to be only under consideration, so assume that all those affected have 'bent the ear' of their councillers!
Adrian Smith, says...
7:10pm Fri 21 Mar 08
paul b wrote:Paul, why do you keep posting something about "Extreme Nimby" on the petition?
I think it's a great campaign. I don't wanna cough up just to parc my motor outside my house. Im not being an extreme nimby I just dont want too do it.
johnnie, Farnborough says...
7:26pm Fri 21 Mar 08
johnnie, Farnborough says...
7:27pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Sailor Sam, says...
7:56pm Fri 21 Mar 08
johnnie wrote:If we all own it, why do some have to pay more?
No one has the right to park on the road. The road belongs to all of us. If people want to have a space outside their homes then why shouldn't they pay ?
Rufus T Firefly, says...
9:51pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Duh, Southampton says...
10:58pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Rufus T Firefly wrote:I kind of agree, but as a resident why should you pay? I agree residents don't own the road, but surely they should be taken into consideration?
This is just another method to force motorists to give up their cars, to price them out if you will. Anyone who lives in a densely populated area, particularly terraced housing, knows there are way more cars in the street now than, say, 10 years ago. You can't just stand there, arms folded, saying 'I have a god-given right to park outside my house'. It's very simple, YOU DON'T!! (I can hear Londoners laughing at you from here!!) The authorities have to do something. They can't magic up a multi storey car park in the sky, so they get you to make it easier for them by giving up your car. It's a sad fact of living in a city I'm afraid.
Richard, Southampton says...
11:28pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Grrrrrrr, Hampshire says...
11:37pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Richard wrote:So who gave the original planning permission for the properties to be built with no parking?
Its interesting to see how many people eroneously claim the right to park on the road. The Highways Act says that roads are for the passage of goods and vehicles and that ANY parking on them is technically an obstruction. This can be waived by the Council spending tax payers money to firstly establish and then enforce regulations that ALLOW parking in designated areas, either in the form of metered parking or in residents' parking zones. It is absolutely and entirely reasonable that taxpayers should NOT have to bear the cost of introducing and enforcing these regulations, but that the people who benefit from them should - i.e. that people who park at metered parking spaces should pay the charges there, and residents should pay for the benefit of residents' parking. Its another example of people wrongly claining rights that they are not entitled to without considering their responsbilities, and of the Echo getting hold of the wrong end of the stick to give the Council another misplaced, populist beating. Shame on you!
Richard, Southampton says...
11:51pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Grrrrrrr wrote:Ask yourself the other question. Why should people who live in areas that DON'T benefit from residents' parking subsidise the parking in those areas by the people who do, which also deprives the people who don't live there of any chance to park in those areas. I don't expect the Council - i.e. other Council taxpayers - to subsidise a place on the street for my fridge because my kitchen isn't big enough for it, so why do you claim that right in respect of your car?
Richard wrote: Its interesting to see how many people eroneously claim the right to park on the road. The Highways Act says that roads are for the passage of goods and vehicles and that ANY parking on them is technically an obstruction. This can be waived by the Council spending tax payers money to firstly establish and then enforce regulations that ALLOW parking in designated areas, either in the form of metered parking or in residents' parking zones. It is absolutely and entirely reasonable that taxpayers should NOT have to bear the cost of introducing and enforcing these regulations, but that the people who benefit from them should - i.e. that people who park at metered parking spaces should pay the charges there, and residents should pay for the benefit of residents' parking. Its another example of people wrongly claining rights that they are not entitled to without considering their responsbilities, and of the Echo getting hold of the wrong end of the stick to give the Council another misplaced, populist beating. Shame on you!So who gave the original planning permission for the properties to be built with no parking? And where did they expect them to park? So do you expect someone who has lived in a house for 30 years and had free parking (as stated in the original plans) to now have to pay. I do believe planning laws these days have to take into account parking when building houses/flats. So why should the older houses suffer?
Duh, Southampton says...
11:58pm Fri 21 Mar 08
Richard, Southampton says...
12:08am Sat 22 Mar 08
Duh wrote:As far as I know, in most of the places that now need residents parking (and I don't deny the need, in today's society) the houses were built before cars were invented, so planning for cars at that time would have been a true marvel of foresight. Ever since then, anyone who decided to live there AND own a car did so in the knowledge that they would have to rely on someone else to provide a space for the car. Again, I say that it is absolutely NOT reasonable that "someone else", in this case other taxpayers, should pay for providing that space. The fact that the Council (wrongly, in my view) has chosen to penalise people NOT living in residents' parking zones by MAKING them pay for other peoples' parking until now doesn't make it wrong now for them to change their mind and bring in a more just policy.
I do take your point but, at the same time the council have to take into consideration the lack of planning in the first place! You wouldn\'t build a housing estate with no parking would you?
Stuoid, Southampton says...
12:24am Sat 22 Mar 08
Richard wrote:I live in the City and am fortunate enough to have ample parking on my property.
Duh wrote: I do take your point but, at the same time the council have to take into consideration the lack of planning in the first place! You wouldn\\\\\\\'t build a housing estate with no parking would you?As far as I know, in most of the places that now need residents parking (and I don\\\'t deny the need, in today\\\'s society) the houses were built before cars were invented, so planning for cars at that time would have been a true marvel of foresight. Ever since then, anyone who decided to live there AND own a car did so in the knowledge that they would have to rely on someone else to provide a space for the car. Again, I say that it is absolutely NOT reasonable that \\\"someone else\\\", in this case other taxpayers, should pay for providing that space. The fact that the Council (wrongly, in my view) has chosen to penalise people NOT living in residents\\\' parking zones by MAKING them pay for other peoples\\\' parking until now doesn\\\'t make it wrong now for them to change their mind and bring in a more just policy.
Richard, Southampton says...
12:32am Sat 22 Mar 08
Stuoid wrote:As I've pointed out above, it costs MONEY to provide car parking, whether metered on street, residents parking, or off-street car parks. The Council spends this money, so that people who choose to use their cars can park without causing illegal obstructions to the highway. The Council therefore either has to get the money it pays to provide car parking from Council taxpayers (some of whom won't ever use the car parks) or else it has to charge the people who use the car parks. Which do YOU think is fairer?
Richard wrote:I live in the City and am fortunate enough to have ample parking on my property. As a tax payer being taxed on every part of my car, why shouldn't I be allowed to park anywhere FREE. I pay tax on my fuel, I pay road tax, what more should I pay? The next thing will be tax on stopping at a red light. Where do we stop? Once they have finished taxing the car users, will they start on pedestrians?Duh wrote: I do take your point but, at the same time the council have to take into consideration the lack of planning in the first place! You wouldn\\\\\\\'t build a housing estate with no parking would you?As far as I know, in most of the places that now need residents parking (and I don\\\'t deny the need, in today\\\'s society) the houses were built before cars were invented, so planning for cars at that time would have been a true marvel of foresight. Ever since then, anyone who decided to live there AND own a car did so in the knowledge that they would have to rely on someone else to provide a space for the car. Again, I say that it is absolutely NOT reasonable that \\\"someone else\\\", in this case other taxpayers, should pay for providing that space. The fact that the Council (wrongly, in my view) has chosen to penalise people NOT living in residents\\\' parking zones by MAKING them pay for other peoples\\\' parking until now doesn\\\'t make it wrong now for them to change their mind and bring in a more just policy.
What a Muppet, Southampton says...
12:41am Sat 22 Mar 08
Richard, Southampton says...
12:55am Sat 22 Mar 08
What a Muppet wrote:You are aptly named, "What a muppet". Try reading this carefully. The law (the Highways Act) says that generally roads are NOT to be used for parking. The Council can introduce a regulation that allows parking in certain places. A "regulation" is a piece of law and, as anyone knows who has ever dealt with the law, doing things that involve legal proceedings costs MONEY - usually lots of it. Once the regulation has been made, it has to be enforced, otherwise it was a WASTE of MONEY to make the regulation. Enforcement means that the Council has to employ people to go round and check that the people parking in the areas it has designated are entitled to park there, i.e. they have paid the metered charges or they have a permit for the residents parking zone. It costs MONEY to employ people to do this. If these people have to take enforcement action, that means issuing notices that have a legal effect, and so, like any other legal process, it costs MONEY. Of course it also costs a bit of MONEY to paint lines and put up signs, but that is, usually, the least of it. Please try to think just a little bit before you start being abusive AND displaying your ignorance.
How does it cost money to provide on-street parking you muppet? The streets are maintained regardless! They simply narrow the roads and allow on street parking. The only difference is a parked car causes less damage than a moving one! SO tell me how it costs money to allow on street parking? Other than the white lines they have to paint?
What a Muppet, Southampton says...
1:04am Sat 22 Mar 08
Richard wrote:Keep digging your hole!
What a Muppet wrote: How does it cost money to provide on-street parking you muppet? The streets are maintained regardless! They simply narrow the roads and allow on street parking. The only difference is a parked car causes less damage than a moving one! SO tell me how it costs money to allow on street parking? Other than the white lines they have to paint?You are aptly named, "What a muppet". Try reading this carefully. The law (the Highways Act) says that generally roads are NOT to be used for parking. The Council can introduce a regulation that allows parking in certain places. A "regulation" is a piece of law and, as anyone knows who has ever dealt with the law, doing things that involve legal proceedings costs MONEY - usually lots of it. Once the regulation has been made, it has to be enforced, otherwise it was a WASTE of MONEY to make the regulation. Enforcement means that the Council has to employ people to go round and check that the people parking in the areas it has designated are entitled to park there, i.e. they have paid the metered charges or they have a permit for the residents parking zone. It costs MONEY to employ people to do this. If these people have to take enforcement action, that means issuing notices that have a legal effect, and so, like any other legal process, it costs MONEY. Of course it also costs a bit of MONEY to paint lines and put up signs, but that is, usually, the least of it. Please try to think just a little bit before you start being abusive AND displaying your ignorance.
Richard, Southampton says...
1:20am Sat 22 Mar 08
What a Muppet wrote:It might have helped if you had read - better still understood, but that's obviously asking too much (as it usually is for people who resort to abuse as a first line of attack) - the rest of this correspondence, which covers all of the "points" you make. On one thing I agree with you - it IS all about money. Its about whether car users pay for the consequences of the use of their cars or whether other people do. Paying for using facilities provided by the Council at Council taxpayers' expense is not a "tax", its simply a payment for a service, and if the person who uses the service doesn't pay for it, then Council taxpayers have to.
Richard wrote:Keep digging your hole! I fail to see how the Council Tax payer who pays for the road surfaces and trees/plants etc can be affected by parking? Go out of town, you can park where you like (if you dare) why should City residents suffer. The only reason The City suffers is due to out of town people parking where they can free! I pay council tax, car tax, Income tax, how many more taxes do you want? It\'s all about MONEY Muppet!What a Muppet wrote: How does it cost money to provide on-street parking you muppet? The streets are maintained regardless! They simply narrow the roads and allow on street parking. The only difference is a parked car causes less damage than a moving one! SO tell me how it costs money to allow on street parking? Other than the white lines they have to paint?You are aptly named, \"What a muppet\". Try reading this carefully. The law (the Highways Act) says that generally roads are NOT to be used for parking. The Council can introduce a regulation that allows parking in certain places. A \"regulation\" is a piece of law and, as anyone knows who has ever dealt with the law, doing things that involve legal proceedings costs MONEY - usually lots of it. Once the regulation has been made, it has to be enforced, otherwise it was a WASTE of MONEY to make the regulation. Enforcement means that the Council has to employ people to go round and check that the people parking in the areas it has designated are entitled to park there, i.e. they have paid the metered charges or they have a permit for the residents parking zone. It costs MONEY to employ people to do this. If these people have to take enforcement action, that means issuing notices that have a legal effect, and so, like any other legal process, it costs MONEY. Of course it also costs a bit of MONEY to paint lines and put up signs, but that is, usually, the least of it. Please try to think just a little bit before you start being abusive AND displaying your ignorance.
Honour, Southampton says...
7:40am Sat 22 Mar 08
Lee Whitbread, Labour Party Candidate for Bassett says...
12:55am Sun 23 Mar 08
Honour wrote:This election is about more then car parking charges, this election is about the future direction that Southampton takes, does Southampton go down the road of cuts from the Conservatives or does this city make investments in key services? do pensioners have reduced use of their bus passes? (something the Conservatives wanted) Do children under 12 lose free swimming? (something which the Conservatives wanted to axe) Do we have reduced lesiure centre hours? another Conservative cut) Do we lose our football and cricket pitches? (yet another tory cut) I could go on and on... Investment from Labour or Cuts from the Conservatives
May elections, the only weapon labour and liberal will understand. Please Please please use your vote. A little effort will work wonders.
gary, shirley says...
12:17pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Lee Whitbread wrote:Never mind about football pitches, cricket pitches, bus passes, free swimming, leisure centre cuts, FOCUS on the issue Mr Whitbread,
Honour wrote: May elections, the only weapon labour and liberal will understand. Please Please please use your vote. A little effort will work wonders.This election is about more then car parking charges, this election is about the future direction that Southampton takes, does Southampton go down the road of cuts from the Conservatives or does this city make investments in key services? do pensioners have reduced use of their bus passes? (something the Conservatives wanted) Do children under 12 lose free swimming? (something which the Conservatives wanted to axe) Do we have reduced lesiure centre hours? another Conservative cut) Do we lose our football and cricket pitches? (yet another tory cut) I could go on and on... Investment from Labour or Cuts from the Conservatives
gary, says...
2:04pm Mon 24 Mar 08
Lee Whitbread wrote:As outlined in my earlier post Mr Whitbread, this is probably not the proper place to discuss leisure centre cuts, free swimming or for that matter any other issue. But while we're here, I live in Shirley and there have been numerous issues regarding planning, conversion of good family homes into HMO's and flats all of which contribute to the parking problems and you lot are contributing to the problem whilst formulating a policy with which to make us pay for your policy gaffes.
Honour wrote: May elections, the only weapon labour and liberal will understand. Please Please please use your vote. A little effort will work wonders.This election is about more then car parking charges, this election is about the future direction that Southampton takes, does Southampton go down the road of cuts from the Conservatives or does this city make investments in key services? do pensioners have reduced use of their bus passes? (something the Conservatives wanted) Do children under 12 lose free swimming? (something which the Conservatives wanted to axe) Do we have reduced lesiure centre hours? another Conservative cut) Do we lose our football and cricket pitches? (yet another tory cut) I could go on and on... Investment from Labour or Cuts from the Conservatives
Council worker, Totton says...
5:33pm Thu 3 Apr 08
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Ian, Turkey says...
10:43am Fri 21 Mar 08
This has nothing to with making parking easier or easing congested roads, just another earner for the coffers, and to be used elsewhere.