Blow to port as Government raises shipping taxes (From Daily Echo)

If the British ship owners had not registered their ships abroad as a tax avoidance measure, and employ foreign crews who work for less and do not pay income tax in the UK, then perhaps this rise would not have been needed.
Who loses out?
Not the shipping company owners, they will still rake in the cash whilst pleading poverty!

Linesman wrote:
If the British ship owners had not registered their ships abroad as a tax avoidance measure, and employ foreign crews who work for less and do not pay income tax in the UK, then perhaps this rise would not have been needed.
Who loses out?
Not the shipping company owners, they will still rake in the cash whilst pleading poverty!

very true linesman
another point its not just southampton docks that getting this rise or indeed just the uk, it will be happening all over the EU, some all ready had this rise while others will be getting it shortly to.

Talk about kicking an industry when it down!

Time for Labour to go!

We pay for Irish lighthouses as well as our own, the Irish claim shed loads of cash from the EU so why can't claim cash to pay for their lighthouses.

Could you see a French port owner or docker paying for the tax levied on our lighthouses?

Good on the Echo for spearheading a campaign composed entirely of fail. No pun intended

security word: like-hike

Er, no we don't

southy wrote:

Linesman wrote: If the British ship owners had not registered their ships abroad as a tax avoidance measure, and employ foreign crews who work for less and do not pay income tax in the UK, then perhaps this rise would not have been needed. Who loses out? Not the shipping company owners, they will still rake in the cash whilst pleading poverty!

very true linesman another point its not just southampton docks that getting this rise or indeed just the uk, it will be happening all over the EU, some all ready had this rise while others will be getting it shortly to.

Southy,

You are right that all Uk ports will be affected.

You are wrong in so far as that in almost all EU country's the cost of Navigational Aids is paid by the Tax payer.
As SaintsMike rightly says, approx £15m of revenue charged to vessels calling in UK ports goes towards subsidising navigation in the Irish Republic, a separate EU member awash with European aid.

What a tangled web EU weave - time to give them the old 'heave ho', but of course the EU would make us suffer and possibly destroy us. I wonder how many MPs acknowledge we are in a cleft stick. We could have told them years ago if they had given us a referendum!

goard

Linesman wrote:
If the British ship owners had not registered their ships abroad as a tax avoidance measure, and employ foreign crews who work for less and do not pay income tax in the UK, then perhaps this rise would not have been needed. Who loses out? Not the shipping company owners, they will still rake in the cash whilst pleading poverty!

Linesman
With due respect this is red herring.
As I have mentioned before on this site, there are more British registered vessels now than before John Prescott (an ex Cunard steward) helped push forward the Tonnage Act which gave shipowners, both UK and Foreign, a tax incentive to register ships in the UK.
You are, of course, correct that there are less British seafarers but this is the case with all 'developed' nations. Non Officer ranks, in all ships nowadays, come from areas where cost of labour is cheaper. It is a fact of life not limited to British owned/operated vessels.
Even the RFA use some Chinese lower deck crew!!

It annoys me that people baulk at paying tax yet expect high quality services from public bodies. No one likes paying tax but it is a fact of life.

Saints Mike wrote:
We pay for Irish lighthouses as well as our own, the Irish claim shed loads of cash from the EU so why can't claim cash to pay for their lighthouses.

Could you see a French port owner or docker paying for the tax levied on our lighthouses?

mike it ships that are coming to british ports, has for the french they pay for the channel islands for the same reason ships going into french ports but are maintain by the british, only because we better at it.
ben germany put there port tax up last year and will be putting them up again next year, romania is putting port tax on for the first time this year, italy and greece will be upping there port tax has well. its an EU directive but its up to each country how much and when it go's on.
maybe if the ships where british reg and had a total british crew this tax might off been able to be soak up in the revenue and possable may not have been a tax, shipping companys cant have it all there way it was bound to happen sooner or later, you cant expect the ordinary to pay for companys greed.there greed has cost this country alot off money and now its catching them up, the less jobs there are the more they are going to end up paying for there greed.

News Fanatic wrote:
It annoys me that people baulk at paying tax yet expect high quality services from public bodies. No one likes paying tax but it is a fact of life.

You're right, but part of the problem is, a lot of people don't feel they're getting value for their money. I certainly don't. Paying high tax is fine when it isn't squandered on pointlessness and things nobody wants

Ben Doone wrote:

Linesman wrote:
If the British ship owners had not registered their ships abroad as a tax avoidance measure, and employ foreign crews who work for less and do not pay income tax in the UK, then perhaps this rise would not have been needed. Who loses out? Not the shipping company owners, they will still rake in the cash whilst pleading poverty!

Linesman
With due respect this is red herring.
As I have mentioned before on this site, there are more British registered vessels now than before John Prescott (an ex Cunard steward) helped push forward the Tonnage Act which gave shipowners, both UK and Foreign, a tax incentive to register ships in the UK.
You are, of course, correct that there are less British seafarers but this is the case with all 'developed' nations. Non Officer ranks, in all ships nowadays, come from areas where cost of labour is cheaper. It is a fact of life not limited to British owned/operated vessels.
Even the RFA use some Chinese lower deck crew!!

last bit ben, i remeber the cook being chinese and a few stewards but they came from hong kong and are now british citizens many off them and there familys live around here in redbridge.

Martini Barcardi *DONG* B A T *DONG* C&G *DONG* Big Insurance firm at the Marlands *DONG* Ford *DONG*

Southampton Port and Container terminal *DO...*

The bell of doom just keeps on donging.

Is anyone working over there?

This Government never ceases to amaze me with its sheer incompetance.

It's time for Labour to go. The public wants a general election!

southy wrote:

Saints Mike wrote: We pay for Irish lighthouses as well as our own, the Irish claim shed loads of cash from the EU so why can't claim cash to pay for their lighthouses. Could you see a French port owner or docker paying for the tax levied on our lighthouses?

mike it ships that are coming to british ports, has for the french they pay for the channel islands for the same reason ships going into french ports but are maintain by the british, only because we better at it. ben germany put there port tax up last year and will be putting them up again next year, romania is putting port tax on for the first time this year, italy and greece will be upping there port tax has well. its an EU directive but its up to each country how much and when it go's on. maybe if the ships where british reg and had a total british crew this tax might off been able to be soak up in the revenue and possable may not have been a tax, shipping companys cant have it all there way it was bound to happen sooner or later, you cant expect the ordinary to pay for companys greed.there greed has cost this country alot off money and now its catching them up, the less jobs there are the more they are going to end up paying for there greed.

southy
You refer to port tax. This article is about Light Dues.
Where did you source the information about Port tax in Romania/Germany/Ital
y & Greece and also about the so called EU Directive.

Finlay wrote:
Martini Barcardi *DONG* B A T *DONG* C&G *DONG* Big Insurance firm at the Marlands *DONG* Ford *DONG* Southampton Port and Container terminal *DO...* The bell of doom just keeps on donging. Is anyone working over there?

Finlay
As you rightly point out these are difficult times for the UK worker.
However, if I read the situation correctly, there are far more 'DONGS' in the USA (and indeed in other parts of Europe)than the UK!!

Finlay wrote:
Martini Barcardi *DONG* B A T *DONG* C&G *DONG* Big Insurance firm at the Marlands *DONG* Ford *DONG* Southampton Port and Container terminal *DO...* The bell of doom just keeps on donging. Is anyone working over there?

Hows things in the sunny US Finlay?

How many people are being laid off a month?

Isnt capitalism wonderful!!

i have relations that live in pireas athens, when my cousin was last over he was on about it, my aunt who is greek her self has brother that lives in or did (think he pass on now) constanta romaina, who son works on the conatanta to rotterdam canal and a sister that lives in livorno who 2 sons there work on loading and unloading cars off the ships. i have relations in a lot off places.

Ben Doone wrote:

Linesman wrote: If the British ship owners had not registered their ships abroad as a tax avoidance measure, and employ foreign crews who work for less and do not pay income tax in the UK, then perhaps this rise would not have been needed. Who loses out? Not the shipping company owners, they will still rake in the cash whilst pleading poverty!

Linesman With due respect this is red herring. As I have mentioned before on this site, there are more British registered vessels now than before John Prescott (an ex Cunard steward) helped push forward the Tonnage Act which gave shipowners, both UK and Foreign, a tax incentive to register ships in the UK. You are, of course, correct that there are less British seafarers but this is the case with all 'developed' nations. Non Officer ranks, in all ships nowadays, come from areas where cost of labour is cheaper. It is a fact of life not limited to British owned/operated vessels. Even the RFA use some Chinese lower deck crew!!

So 'the flag of convenience' is a thing of the past?
I think not.

The Us is divided into States and those States have their own econom and their own laws over which Federal Laws sit.

It isnt fantastic and the news worthy incidents are from huge metropolitan areas but they are doing OK actually and house prices are rising and the thirst for new houses is optimistic cos people can now afford them.

Barak Obama is doing a lotof good stuff - How is the Cyclops doing?

Finlay wrote:
The Us is divided into States and those States have their own econom and their own laws over which Federal Laws sit. It isnt fantastic and the news worthy incidents are from huge metropolitan areas but they are doing OK actually and house prices are rising and the thirst for new houses is optimistic cos people can now afford them. Barak Obama is doing a lotof good stuff - How is the Cyclops doing?

According to financial experts, the recession, WHICH HAD ITS BEGINNINGS IN THE UNITED STATES, is showing signs of recovery here, thanks to Gordon Brown.
This financial crisis is world-wide, unlike the financial crisis under Margaret Thatcher's administration, which saw interest rates in their teens, that was just a British crisis brought about by her administration's incompetence.

Spot the difference!

Maestrict - Ah Yes! I remember it well!

Finlay
If I remember correctly isn't Des Moines home to a lot of Insurance Companies like AIG, who haven't exactly covered themselves in glory lately.
As someone who trys to keep a balanced view on life (sometimes difficult!!)it is interesting to learn, from contacts in the US, that Gordon Brown's financial initiatives have been welcomed by the Obama administration and, in fact, largely followed in the US.
Also, ata recent conference, the French Finance Minister (who spoke excellent English and seemed to be a sensible and intelligent lady)was very supportive of her UK counterpart Alistair Darling. This surprised me as I thought the Sarkozy administration were very keen to be Obama's best friend

Finlay wrote:
The Us is divided into States and those States have their own econom and their own laws over which Federal Laws sit.

It isnt fantastic and the news worthy incidents are from huge metropolitan areas but they are doing OK actually and house prices are rising and the thirst for new houses is optimistic cos people can now afford them.

Barak Obama is doing a lotof good stuff - How is the Cyclops doing?

Riddle me this, batman: if you're so in love with life in the US of A, why do you spent so much time checking out the news in sleepy old Hampshire? Out of sight, out of mind been switched off over there, has it?

Linesman wrote:

Ben Doone wrote:

Linesman wrote: If the British ship owners had not registered their ships abroad as a tax avoidance measure, and employ foreign crews who work for less and do not pay income tax in the UK, then perhaps this rise would not have been needed. Who loses out? Not the shipping company owners, they will still rake in the cash whilst pleading poverty!

Linesman With due respect this is red herring. As I have mentioned before on this site, there are more British registered vessels now than before John Prescott (an ex Cunard steward) helped push forward the Tonnage Act which gave shipowners, both UK and Foreign, a tax incentive to register ships in the UK. You are, of course, correct that there are less British seafarers but this is the case with all 'developed' nations. Non Officer ranks, in all ships nowadays, come from areas where cost of labour is cheaper. It is a fact of life not limited to British owned/operated vessels. Even the RFA use some Chinese lower deck crew!!

So 'the flag of convenience' is a thing of the past? I think not.

As I understand it the flag of convenience has been around since just after WW1 and there are many countries offering tax incentives to join their register, including quite a few British dependencies. Some FOC's do not operate their register in a very professional manner and it is sometimes difficult for shipowners to get insurance.
All I am saying here is that since the UK tonnage Act was introduced more vessels have been registered in the UK than before. Altho Carnival is a US company, the 'Aurora', 'Ocean Village','Oriana',
'QM2'& 'Queen Victoria'are all Uk registered and, with Southampton on their sterns,promote the name of the City around the world.
In addition some of the Scandinavian RO/RO carriers have put new tonnage on the UK register.
Surely that must give a sense of pride to local residents? Maybe not.

Ben Doone wrote:

Linesman wrote:

Ben Doone wrote:

Linesman wrote: If the British ship owners had not registered their ships abroad as a tax avoidance measure, and employ foreign crews who work for less and do not pay income tax in the UK, then perhaps this rise would not have been needed. Who loses out? Not the shipping company owners, they will still rake in the cash whilst pleading poverty!

Linesman With due respect this is red herring. As I have mentioned before on this site, there are more British registered vessels now than before John Prescott (an ex Cunard steward) helped push forward the Tonnage Act which gave shipowners, both UK and Foreign, a tax incentive to register ships in the UK. You are, of course, correct that there are less British seafarers but this is the case with all 'developed' nations. Non Officer ranks, in all ships nowadays, come from areas where cost of labour is cheaper. It is a fact of life not limited to British owned/operated vessels. Even the RFA use some Chinese lower deck crew!!

So 'the flag of convenience' is a thing of the past? I think not.

As I understand it the flag of convenience has been around since just after WW1 and there are many countries offering tax incentives to join their register, including quite a few British dependencies. Some FOC's do not operate their register in a very professional manner and it is sometimes difficult for shipowners to get insurance. All I am saying here is that since the UK tonnage Act was introduced more vessels have been registered in the UK than before. Altho Carnival is a US company, the 'Aurora', 'Ocean Village','Oriana', 'QM2'& 'Queen Victoria'are all Uk registered and, with Southampton on their sterns,promote the name of the City around the world. In addition some of the Scandinavian RO/RO carriers have put new tonnage on the UK register. Surely that must give a sense of pride to local residents? Maybe not.

As you are in Dubai, perhaps you could tell us how many British registered ships call in there and how many are heading for the UK.

A rough percentage would do.

Linesman
Due to the global downturn, I spend less time aboard than in the past which suits me well.
However Dubai port often sees Uk registered cruise ships but, unfortunately, hardly any container or other cargo vessels.
But to try and answer your question, the number of UK registered ships is small compared to those registered in Panama/Liberia/Bermu
da etc. That said the decline was arrested by the introduction of the Tonnage tax which,arguably, was the only bit of positive Governance by Mr Prescott.
If you look at the USA/France/Germany etc, there are v few ships registered in these countries. The vast majority of ships, rightly or wrongly, are registered in what may be termed 'Tax havens'.
One final point, you castigate 'British Ship Owners'.Would be interested to know if you can name ANY major international British ship owning company.

What has being in the USA got to do with the rapid decay of business in Southampton?

Ok lets assume Im in Belgium or say Derby or Sydney - So now lets look at the work vacuum in Southampton. Any changes?

Get over it - Im not there out of choice but it still dont change the rot that the place is suffering

Ben Doone wrote:
Linesman Due to the global downturn, I spend less time aboard than in the past which suits me well. However Dubai port often sees Uk registered cruise ships but, unfortunately, hardly any container or other cargo vessels. But to try and answer your question, the number of UK registered ships is small compared to those registered in Panama/Liberia/Bermu da etc. That said the decline was arrested by the introduction of the Tonnage tax which,arguably, was the only bit of positive Governance by Mr Prescott. If you look at the USA/France/Germany etc, there are v few ships registered in these countries. The vast majority of ships, rightly or wrongly, are registered in what may be termed 'Tax havens'. One final point, you castigate 'British Ship Owners'.Would be interested to know if you can name ANY major international British ship owning company.

Thanks for the info Ben.
Whilst the introduction of the Tonnage tax may have arrested the decline, it does not appear to have turned things around.
You ask to name British Ship Owners which, as I am not in any way associated with the business, I find rather difficult. The old familiar ones either have been sold to foreign owners or have vanished. Cunard and P&O are no longer British owned and the Castle Line long since ceased. I think that the Shaw Savill line is still British owned and Cable & Wireless had ships, but don't know whether they qualify and rather fancy that Geest is now British owned, but as most trade is done with container ships, I don't know of any British line that operates them.
So, if there are no British Shipping Companies to have a tax on their profits, charge a shipping tax to the foreign ones.

Linesman
It is a sobering fact of life that up until WW1 something like 70% of the worlds ships were built in the Uk. However the amount of resources that went into fighting WW1, the 1930's depression (which caused significant problems for UK shipping companies) and then WW2, basically did for us as the world's leading maritime nation.
However looking at some relatively recent info from the MCA, there were around 1,500 vessels, totalling 13m gross tonnes, on the UK register a year or so back. Many of these were foreign owned. Since 2002 (ie just after the Tonnage Tax was introduced)this represented a doubling of vessels owned and managed in the UK and a quadrupling of the UK registered fleet.So relatively good news there.
Re Geest Line I believe, like many companies, they charter-in tonnage.
Geest Bananas are, I think part owned by Fyffes (now Irish owned)and the Windward Isles banana producers. Geest have local offices near you in Whiteley and ship in their cargo through P'mouth having moved there from soton and, before that, Barry in S wales.

interesting history behide geest, started off has a dutch/jew food company before WW2, then handed over a to dutch friend, duing the occupation off holland, after the war moved to the uk and set up offices in belguim,france,south africa, plus there holland offices, then about 50 plus years ago went into shipping and broke up in to 2 different companys. the shipping part is owned now by fyffes. who started life has fyffes&hudson in london 1870.