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Councillor 'can't afford Jag' without higher expenses

More stories about: Titchfield


HE drives a gold-coloured X-type Jaguar and is paid an allowance of nearly £12,000 as a backbench Hampshire county councillor.

But Tory councillor Geoffrey Hockley has said he will “be forced to sell” his luxury car if made to cut another taxpayer-funded perk – a 53p per mile petrol allowance.

The 70-year-old retired businessman pleaded to keep the generous mileage rate at a meeting of the council while councillors approved budget proposals to slash petrol expenses for thousands of staff next April.

Councillors were under pressure from an independent review panel to cut their petrol mileage rate from 53p to 40p – bringing them in line with the maximum tax-free rate recommended by the Inland Revenue and saving council taxpayers’ £30,000 a year.

They voted to freeze their pay but gave themselves the choice of either claiming 53p or 40p per mile in petrol expenses – a move slammed by union leaders.

Cllr Hockley, who represents Titchfield, said he had treated himself to a Jaguar and the high running costs were unaffordable on a councillor’s allowance and lower mileage rate.

Figures show he claimed £1,402 in petrol expenses for driving his three-year-old Jaguar to council meetings in 2009.

He said: “My car is not unbelievably fuel-efficient.

I accept that but at my age it is probably the last car I will buy and I wanted it to be a nice one. It’s not a Ferrari or a Maserati but one of the more basic cars that Jaguar produce.

Prior to retiring, he worked in Zambia and Kenya as a general sales manager for an American multi-national corporation before working for Trident Trust charity in the UK providing work placements for students.

The father-of-two said the 53p rate was part of the benefits package when he was elected in 2005 and it was unfair to change it.

He said councillors “making political capital” of the issue boosted their income by sitting on other bodies such as district councils, police and fire authorities.

The Conservative-controlled council is looking to find £15m savings as part of the budget for 2010-11.

The cost-cutting drive includes slashing petrol expenses claimed by 7,500 staff who need their cars for work from 53p to 40p –saving £1m in just 12 months.

Negotiations are ongoing between management and unions about a 48p rate for staff earning less than £33,000, including social workers and home helps.

Gina Turner branch secretary of Hampshire Unison said: “Councillors need to lead by example. They can’t have one rule for members and one rule for staff. That’s not fair.

“They can’t say to employees you have to have a petrol mileage rate of 40p to save money but we can do whatever we want. They are the ones looking for efficiency savings. Councillors didn’t vote themselves a pay rise which makes them look good but staff had no choice about their pay being frozen next year or their mileage rates.

It’s rubbing salt in the wound.”

Christine Melsom, chairman of IsItFair anti-council tax group, said: “I am very pleased Cabinet members have decided to accept 40p and I don’t think other councillors should be given any choice but to do the same.

“If Cllr Hockley wants to run a Jaguar and it costs more than 40p per mile than he should pay the extra out of his own pocket and not expect council taxpayers to subsidise his extravagance!”

Liberal Democrat opposition leader Keith House said he was astounded by the Tory opposition to reducing councillors’ mileage allowances – and “impassioned pleas from Jaguar drivers they couldn’t afford to drive their cars.”

He pledged his Lib Dem group would all claim the 40p rate.

Figures show that the total amount paid out to 78 councillors in petrol expenses in 2008-9 was £115,560.

The biggest petrol claims were by Cabinet members Cllr Mel Kendal (£7,448) and Cllr David Kirk (£7,181) – who were also paid a special responsibility allowance of £17,157 on top of their basic £11,848 pay – while Cllr Colin Davidovitz made no petrol claim at all in 2009.


Comments(47)

Redondo Saint says...
4:53pm Wed 24 Feb 10

With all the cut backs and sacrifices everyone else has to endure, it's rather sickening that a councillor can be so far out of touch with the rest of the human race.

allsaintsnocurves says...
4:55pm Wed 24 Feb 10

No sympathy here...it shouldn't be paid for by tax payers money...if you want an extra luxury item fund it yourself!

We all need to make cut backs as times are tough at the moment...we shouldn't be the ones making cuts and then paying more in taxes to fund these extra benefits for councilors!

southy says...
4:59pm Wed 24 Feb 10

he should do what all socialist councilors and mps are doing not claiming any type of expenses.

Stupideditor says...
4:59pm Wed 24 Feb 10

It's comments like this that clearly shows that councillors have no interest in their local community. All they are interested in is Second homes, fast cars, fast women/Men and everything paid for by us.

Linesman says...
5:11pm Wed 24 Feb 10

I wonder whether this will be part of the Tory manifesto at the next election!
Fund councillors Jag by cutting back on services for the vulnerable!
Thatcher started it by snatching school milk.

freefinker says...
5:14pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Well, at least he only has one Jag.
Now who was it who had two - probably both at our expense?

DCM says...
5:24pm Wed 24 Feb 10

This is such a disgraceful thing to say by a councillor. I'm appalled that he could have the gall to say this on the public record.

chapelsaint says...
5:25pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Gone are the days when councillors attended and did their bit for the community for the price of their bus fare and a dunkable rich tea biscuit! These leaches are one of the reasons we are paying forever increasing council tax.

Big Mac says...
5:26pm Wed 24 Feb 10

In fairness, it does look like he's been running for a bus... and missed it!

Disallusioned Saint says...
5:34pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Looking at his picture the Councillor should cut back on his alcohol consumption or ride a bike!! Typical Tory - can only drive a rich bas**rds car - what's wrong with public transport? Buses run from Titchfield to Winchester via who knows where! He probably lives in a mansion well off the beaten track with his nearest neighbours being from the social elite!
Get a life Councillor - wait and see if you are re-elected next time - probably wont bother to stand as he will have milked the system sufficiently to live off his ill-gotten gains!
Another example of people in high places dictating to the populace! Still the rich won't get richer if they spend their money on fast cars etc - let the local population fund them instead!!

Absolutely disgraceful - should be ashamed of himself!

CANADA-GILL says...
5:34pm Wed 24 Feb 10

well..........
sell the jag, buy a fuel efficent vehicle
gotta feel sorry for him "it was part of the benefits package", not, how many of us have either had our benefits changed or a pay freeze
SW "plus-easy"

EELS MAN says...
5:39pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Judging by that big fat red face, he really could use some exercise.
Get rid of the Jag trougher!

Ken Hutchinson says...
5:40pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Maybe Condor Man would be prepared to fund the 13p balance per mile for this "good old egg".......

Cyber-Fug says...
5:43pm Wed 24 Feb 10

It shouldn't be a problem..... he looks like he's sponsored by esure

Lone Ranger says...
5:44pm Wed 24 Feb 10

What' a 70 year old idiot doing as a Councillor. For Gods sake put the sad excuse for a human being, out to grass. Or try and bring him into the real world.
.
Sadly it is pathetic morons like this that give the politics of the Country a bad name.
.
Please retire Cllt Hockley...NOW

steekeemcglue says...
5:52pm Wed 24 Feb 10

x-type = "luxury car" !?!? a decent spec mondeo is more pricey than an x type jag !?!? I had an x-type a few years back and nice it was yes , but "luxury" car , I don't think so....

EELS MAN says...
5:53pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Cyber-Fug wrote:
It shouldn't be a problem..... he looks like he's sponsored by esure
"calm down dear, it's only a jag"

D.a.v.e says...
5:59pm Wed 24 Feb 10

CANADA-GILL wrote:
well.......... sell the jag, buy a fuel efficent vehicle gotta feel sorry for him "it was part of the benefits package", not, how many of us have either had our benefits changed or a pay freeze SW "plus-easy"
If he managed to get his fat ar$e into a smaller car it most certainly will not be fuel efficient.

Michael S says...
6:03pm Wed 24 Feb 10

southy wrote:
he should do what all socialist councilors and mps are doing not claiming any type of expenses.
If by "socialist" you mean Labour, here is the latest available information about how much the "socialist" councillors on HCC claimed in allowances and expenses in 2008-9.
.
Anne Edwards, £15,701.41
.
Jane Frankum, £15,639.12
.
Jo Kelly, £20,407.06
.
Dennis Wright, £16,049.18
.
And re. "socialist" MPs not claiming anything - Pull the other one, Southy. they have their snouts as deeply into the trough as any of the others.
.
Yet again, you haven't done any research and spout rubbish.
.
And, as for Keith House - he is a fine one to talk. Look into it, and you will find that he (and his partner) have their fingers into so many publicly-funded pies that they can easily afford to collect ONLY on 40p per mile.
.
Mike S
.
isitfair.co.uk

Christine Melsom says...
6:17pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Quote 'Looking at his picture the Councillor should cut back on his alcohol consumption or ride a bike!! Typical Tory - can only drive a rich bas**rds car - what's wrong with public transport?' unquote
Of course the biggest gas guzzler has two jags is he a typical Labour b*****d? Had this story not received so much coverage, I wonder just how many of the other councillors would have been prepared to give up the higher mileage rate. I am willing to bet, not very many. Councillors have been claiming excessive amounts for too long.

Mr BCB says...
6:23pm Wed 24 Feb 10

I am the same age but I wish they would increase my state pension so that I may buy a new car. This man's audacity is beyond belief. We can do without councillors like this and there are grounds for compulsory retirement from the council at the age of 70. I say enjoy life and live a little that is without the jag!

saintmartin says...
6:23pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Councillor Geoffrey Hockley,
Im so sorry, I feel like I've let you down.

what with struggling on minimum wage, and the council tax, income tax, car tax ect ect, I just dont have enough money left to help you keep your Jaguar ,

Might i suggest you convert it to gas and claim for the conversion on your expenses.

martin.

Ian24 says...
6:34pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Southampton's Royston Smith has a Jag with ROY as the number plate!!

What have we done so wrong to end up with these people in power?

SaintsBiker says...
6:35pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Why cant we vote in a party that cares about this country and not about thier own cost of living.

This man should be sacked and made to live on benifits for 20 years just like the rest of the current MPs.

They can bail the banks but not steel factories. Why cant these useless gits think of the `people` not the wallett

southy says...
6:38pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Michael S wrote:
southy wrote:
he should do what all socialist councilors and mps are doing not claiming any type of expenses.
If by "socialist" you mean Labour, here is the latest available information about how much the "socialist" councillors on HCC claimed in allowances and expenses in 2008-9.
.
Anne Edwards, £15,701.41
.
Jane Frankum, £15,639.12
.
Jo Kelly, £20,407.06
.
Dennis Wright, £16,049.18
.
And re. "socialist" MPs not claiming anything - Pull the other one, Southy. they have their snouts as deeply into the trough as any of the others.
.
Yet again, you haven't done any research and spout rubbish.
.
And, as for Keith House - he is a fine one to talk. Look into it, and you will find that he (and his partner) have their fingers into so many publicly-funded pies that they can easily afford to collect ONLY on 40p per mile.
.
Mike S
.
isitfair.co.uk
i said socialist labour is no longer a socailist party it stop being that when neil kinnockk started the witch hunt on left wing supporters.
at the moment there are only 23 mp's all labour that dont claim expenses plus they only take a working man wage for doing the job. there labour councilors around the country that do not claim any expenses or take the £11,000 a year allowance not many but there is some, all socialist will do the same. capitalist will not.
learn to tell the difference.

Condor Man says...
6:45pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Two problems here. 1. the Labour government have doubled the price of petrol. 2. Anything over 40p in fuel claims is taxed. A lot of councils are bringing down fuel rates to 40p a mile because of this. Perhaps this chap needs to drive either a diesel Jag or a Prius if he wants affordability.

Paramjit Bahia says...
6:49pm Wed 24 Feb 10

southy wrote:
he should do what all socialist councilors and mps are doing not claiming any type of expenses.
I beg to differ with Southy on this one because abuse of the system is not limited to any one party. There are councillors in all the parties who not only do not abuse the system, but often do not claim every entitlement.
Even if Southy very rightly does not consider that New Labour to be and only Trotskyite are real socialist, then how will he explain what Militant supporters George and Peggy Melrose used to do in Southampton. Even if these were odd examples then try digging the records of few others. I often gave lifts to some of them but often did not claim because I also did few personal shopping etc while on the same trip, but when checked their claims they had claimed train fares.
This cancer of irresponsibility and greed need tackling quickly, otherwise situation seem to be getting out of hand. Media should name and shame greedy geezers as Echo has done in this case, and people should remember when voting.
Perhaps Mahatma Gandhi should be made compulsory reading for people in public life to teach them how the public service should be done.

CANADA-GILL says...
6:50pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Saintsbiker
You are right bail the banks and investment companies, but when
other industries ask for help, they are told give a plan for repayment of the loan. Here in Canada & US the car companies have paid back most the loans, but i haven't heard of the banks or investments companies paying anything back in fact they have given thereselves bonus

Lone Ranger says...
7:06pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Ian24 wrote:
Southampton's Royston Smith has a Jag with ROY as the number plate!!

What have we done so wrong to end up with these people in power?
Voted Tory

Derek of Dibden Purlieu says...
7:29pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Perhaps John Prescott could give him some advice on running costs as the tax payer has to fund two jaguars for that man.

Lone Ranger says...
7:33pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Condor Man wrote:
Two problems here. 1. the Labour government have doubled the price of petrol. 2. Anything over 40p in fuel claims is taxed. A lot of councils are bringing down fuel rates to 40p a mile because of this. Perhaps this chap needs to drive either a diesel Jag or a Prius if he wants affordability.
No my old fruit cake there is only one problem here and you will never guess who it is ...YES its YOU.
.
When labour came in to power petrol was at 57.9p litre now 112p per ltr so not quite double and before you get too excited...Oil was at 22$ barrel and now at approx 80$ a barrel. So crude oil has quadrupled and petrol less than doubled. As you know oil effects the petrol price
.
Not only that the .40p mileage allowance has been in existance for a number of years and set by Inland Revenue anything over ,40p has ALWAYS been taxed and its not because of it.
.
Perhaps you should try condemning the idiot for what he is rather than trying to justify what he is doing Tory boy

Linesman says...
7:49pm Wed 24 Feb 10

freefinker wrote:
Well, at least he only has one Jag. Now who was it who had two - probably both at our expense?
I appreciate that this may come as a very big surprise to you, but he only drove one at a time!

simonsouth says...
7:56pm Wed 24 Feb 10

well Councillor Mel Kendal has claimed over £10,000 which means he must have driven over 20,000 miles and he is the cabinet member for the Environment but will not say what car he uses (well its big I am told). Pity he cannot use public transport as the train from the new forest to Winchester is fast, frequent and a lot better than his car for the environment as although he has had his life mant have there to come and want to see a cleaner planet. Pity he does not lead by example.

footballcrazy says...
7:59pm Wed 24 Feb 10

i wish my son got the lower amount.what he recieves at present for going all over the country for his company is 12p a mile! just as well he has a focus

Scrutinizer says...
8:19pm Wed 24 Feb 10

southy wrote:
Michael S wrote:
southy wrote: he should do what all socialist councilors and mps are doing not claiming any type of expenses.
If by "socialist" you mean Labour, here is the latest available information about how much the "socialist" councillors on HCC claimed in allowances and expenses in 2008-9. . Anne Edwards, £15,701.41 . Jane Frankum, £15,639.12 . Jo Kelly, £20,407.06 . Dennis Wright, £16,049.18 . And re. "socialist" MPs not claiming anything - Pull the other one, Southy. they have their snouts as deeply into the trough as any of the others. . Yet again, you haven't done any research and spout rubbish. . And, as for Keith House - he is a fine one to talk. Look into it, and you will find that he (and his partner) have their fingers into so many publicly-funded pies that they can easily afford to collect ONLY on 40p per mile. . Mike S . isitfair.co.uk
i said socialist labour is no longer a socailist party it stop being that when neil kinnockk started the witch hunt on left wing supporters. at the moment there are only 23 mp's all labour that dont claim expenses plus they only take a working man wage for doing the job. there labour councilors around the country that do not claim any expenses or take the £11,000 a year allowance not many but there is some, all socialist will do the same. capitalist will not. learn to tell the difference.
Well I along with most other people remember those terribly bad days of the late 1970s and 1980s, when the Labour Party of the time was being utterly eaten away by the almost fatal virus of those so called 'left wing supporters' of which you mention. Some of whom, I will remind you, were also Militant authoritarian activists. If Neil Kinnock had not taken the courageous, very necessary action against those despicable, authoritarian bullying extremists, the Labour Party would have spent a lot longer than the 18 or so years out of government it subsequently did. And no, I am not a supporter of New Labour nor any political party or movement of any kind, nor ever have been. Oh, and since you mention 'witch hunts', those Militant movement members and supporters including Hatton and his fellow disciples (who were calling themselves at the time 'Socialists') were well practised in that dark art.

The Wickham Man says...
8:27pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Cyber-Fug wrote:
It shouldn't be a problem..... he looks like he's sponsored by esure
Calm down dear - It's Sir Les Patterson !

Saintlygirl says...
9:39pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Good! He shouldn't be claiming for a posh car anyway - the rate should be standard for all!

southy says...
10:59pm Wed 24 Feb 10

Scrutinizer wrote:
southy wrote:
Michael S wrote:
southy wrote: he should do what all socialist councilors and mps are doing not claiming any type of expenses.
If by "socialist" you mean Labour, here is the latest available information about how much the "socialist" councillors on HCC claimed in allowances and expenses in 2008-9. . Anne Edwards, £15,701.41 . Jane Frankum, £15,639.12 . Jo Kelly, £20,407.06 . Dennis Wright, £16,049.18 . And re. "socialist" MPs not claiming anything - Pull the other one, Southy. they have their snouts as deeply into the trough as any of the others. . Yet again, you haven't done any research and spout rubbish. . And, as for Keith House - he is a fine one to talk. Look into it, and you will find that he (and his partner) have their fingers into so many publicly-funded pies that they can easily afford to collect ONLY on 40p per mile. . Mike S . isitfair.co.uk
i said socialist labour is no longer a socailist party it stop being that when neil kinnockk started the witch hunt on left wing supporters. at the moment there are only 23 mp's all labour that dont claim expenses plus they only take a working man wage for doing the job. there labour councilors around the country that do not claim any expenses or take the £11,000 a year allowance not many but there is some, all socialist will do the same. capitalist will not. learn to tell the difference.
Well I along with most other people remember those terribly bad days of the late 1970s and 1980s, when the Labour Party of the time was being utterly eaten away by the almost fatal virus of those so called 'left wing supporters' of which you mention. Some of whom, I will remind you, were also Militant authoritarian activists. If Neil Kinnock had not taken the courageous, very necessary action against those despicable, authoritarian bullying extremists, the Labour Party would have spent a lot longer than the 18 or so years out of government it subsequently did. And no, I am not a supporter of New Labour nor any political party or movement of any kind, nor ever have been. Oh, and since you mention 'witch hunts', those Militant movement members and supporters including Hatton and his fellow disciples (who were calling themselves at the time 'Socialists') were well practised in that dark art.
dark art oh boy, you must be gullible, and belive in all the capitalist propaganda.
hatton must of being doing a good job, he kept getting elected back into office and he had total support from the people, if other councils had not been such cowards and followed in what hatton had done, it would off total destroyed the tory party.
kinnock was a right winger he and his other followers had no right in being a socialist party, if that how he felt then he should of joined the tory party and not let the labour party go the same has the torys because at the moment all you got is a choice of tory party to another tory party.
the labour party was ment to be left wing (socialist) it was made up from all the different left wing groups.

paramjit bahia melrose did they not get kick out in the end because of them claiming.

Derek of Dibden Purlieu says...
11:37pm Wed 24 Feb 10

southy wrote:
Scrutinizer wrote:
southy wrote:
Michael S wrote:
southy wrote: he should do what all socialist councilors and mps are doing not claiming any type of expenses.
If by "socialist" you mean Labour, here is the latest available information about how much the "socialist" councillors on HCC claimed in allowances and expenses in 2008-9. . Anne Edwards, £15,701.41 . Jane Frankum, £15,639.12 . Jo Kelly, £20,407.06 . Dennis Wright, £16,049.18 . And re. "socialist" MPs not claiming anything - Pull the other one, Southy. they have their snouts as deeply into the trough as any of the others. . Yet again, you haven't done any research and spout rubbish. . And, as for Keith House - he is a fine one to talk. Look into it, and you will find that he (and his partner) have their fingers into so many publicly-funded pies that they can easily afford to collect ONLY on 40p per mile. . Mike S . isitfair.co.uk
i said socialist labour is no longer a socailist party it stop being that when neil kinnockk started the witch hunt on left wing supporters. at the moment there are only 23 mp's all labour that dont claim expenses plus they only take a working man wage for doing the job. there labour councilors around the country that do not claim any expenses or take the £11,000 a year allowance not many but there is some, all socialist will do the same. capitalist will not. learn to tell the difference.
Well I along with most other people remember those terribly bad days of the late 1970s and 1980s, when the Labour Party of the time was being utterly eaten away by the almost fatal virus of those so called 'left wing supporters' of which you mention. Some of whom, I will remind you, were also Militant authoritarian activists. If Neil Kinnock had not taken the courageous, very necessary action against those despicable, authoritarian bullying extremists, the Labour Party would have spent a lot longer than the 18 or so years out of government it subsequently did. And no, I am not a supporter of New Labour nor any political party or movement of any kind, nor ever have been. Oh, and since you mention 'witch hunts', those Militant movement members and supporters including Hatton and his fellow disciples (who were calling themselves at the time 'Socialists') were well practised in that dark art.
dark art oh boy, you must be gullible, and belive in all the capitalist propaganda.
hatton must of being doing a good job, he kept getting elected back into office and he had total support from the people, if other councils had not been such cowards and followed in what hatton had done, it would off total destroyed the tory party.
kinnock was a right winger he and his other followers had no right in being a socialist party, if that how he felt then he should of joined the tory party and not let the labour party go the same has the torys because at the moment all you got is a choice of tory party to another tory party.
the labour party was ment to be left wing (socialist) it was made up from all the different left wing groups.

paramjit bahia melrose did they not get kick out in the end because of them claiming.
Luckily Derek Hatton saw the light and joined the ranks of the capitalists. Car registration DEG5Y (Degsy), million pound plus properties and the champagne lifestyle of the property developer for him now. Of course he could be living in a Liverpool council house to stay close to his roots and all of the Google pages devoted to him could be a pack of lies. Not a very good example of a socialist but then again he did see it from the inside and rejected it.

Looney Cleo says...
12:05am Thu 25 Feb 10

Lone Ranger wrote:
What' a 70 year old idiot doing as a Councillor. For Gods sake put the sad excuse for a human being, out to grass. Or try and bring him into the real world. . Sadly it is pathetic morons like this that give the politics of the Country a bad name. . Please retire Cllt Hockley...NOW
Put him out to grass, what grass? He's ate it.
Retire now and take the rest of the old Buffers with him.

clausentum says...
12:11am Thu 25 Feb 10

That memorable Tebbitt exaltation springs to mind:

" Get on yer bike "

cygnus says...
10:07am Thu 25 Feb 10

Sack the old ****. He should be retired anyway and let young blood in that's not afraid to walk or cycle.

MrGMan says...
10:09am Thu 25 Feb 10

Disgraceful behaviour. I note in Southampton the rate has been cut to 40p.

Scrutinizer says...
12:32pm Thu 25 Feb 10

Derek of Dibden Purlieu wrote:
southy wrote:
Scrutinizer wrote:
southy wrote:
Michael S wrote:
southy wrote: he should do what all socialist councilors and mps are doing not claiming any type of expenses.
If by "socialist" you mean Labour, here is the latest available information about how much the "socialist" councillors on HCC claimed in allowances and expenses in 2008-9. . Anne Edwards, £15,701.41 . Jane Frankum, £15,639.12 . Jo Kelly, £20,407.06 . Dennis Wright, £16,049.18 . And re. "socialist" MPs not claiming anything - Pull the other one, Southy. they have their snouts as deeply into the trough as any of the others. . Yet again, you haven't done any research and spout rubbish. . And, as for Keith House - he is a fine one to talk. Look into it, and you will find that he (and his partner) have their fingers into so many publicly-funded pies that they can easily afford to collect ONLY on 40p per mile. . Mike S . isitfair.co.uk
i said socialist labour is no longer a socailist party it stop being that when neil kinnockk started the witch hunt on left wing supporters. at the moment there are only 23 mp's all labour that dont claim expenses plus they only take a working man wage for doing the job. there labour councilors around the country that do not claim any expenses or take the £11,000 a year allowance not many but there is some, all socialist will do the same. capitalist will not. learn to tell the difference.
Well I along with most other people remember those terribly bad days of the late 1970s and 1980s, when the Labour Party of the time was being utterly eaten away by the almost fatal virus of those so called 'left wing supporters' of which you mention. Some of whom, I will remind you, were also Militant authoritarian activists. If Neil Kinnock had not taken the courageous, very necessary action against those despicable, authoritarian bullying extremists, the Labour Party would have spent a lot longer than the 18 or so years out of government it subsequently did. And no, I am not a supporter of New Labour nor any political party or movement of any kind, nor ever have been. Oh, and since you mention 'witch hunts', those Militant movement members and supporters including Hatton and his fellow disciples (who were calling themselves at the time 'Socialists') were well practised in that dark art.
dark art oh boy, you must be gullible, and belive in all the capitalist propaganda. hatton must of being doing a good job, he kept getting elected back into office and he had total support from the people, if other councils had not been such cowards and followed in what hatton had done, it would off total destroyed the tory party. kinnock was a right winger he and his other followers had no right in being a socialist party, if that how he felt then he should of joined the tory party and not let the labour party go the same has the torys because at the moment all you got is a choice of tory party to another tory party. the labour party was ment to be left wing (socialist) it was made up from all the different left wing groups. paramjit bahia melrose did they not get kick out in the end because of them claiming.
Luckily Derek Hatton saw the light and joined the ranks of the capitalists. Car registration DEG5Y (Degsy), million pound plus properties and the champagne lifestyle of the property developer for him now. Of course he could be living in a Liverpool council house to stay close to his roots and all of the Google pages devoted to him could be a pack of lies. Not a very good example of a socialist but then again he did see it from the inside and rejected it.
Dear comrade 'Stalin'/'southy', Greetings! Thought about oppressing anybody new today? Firstly, I believe very little of what any people who wish to control me and others have to say in what you call 'propaganda', be they 'Capitalists', or anyone else for that matter. Now regarding Hatton specifically, yes, you are quite correct, he had a considerable amount of support alright, and indeed was democratically elected too - as did and were the authoritarian so called 'true Socialists' in the USSR and associated countries and also the Fascists and Nazis too. And we all know where their little ideas of 'paradise' on earth ultimately got them. Oh, and the so called 'true Socialists' also had their (surely not your?) version of 'Arbeit Macht Frei' too, not least in the USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos and plenty of other places in our very own backyard of Europe too. But the crucial point to make is, what the ultimate consequences of the 'true socialist' policies of people such as the Militant crowd and other so called 'true Socialists' mean for this country and the rest of the people of the world. Quite simply people suffering and living a bullied, degraded lifestyle, and worst of all suppression of the free 'human spirit'. And still back here in GB, who could forget the bullying tactics employed by certain Union activists in those awful days of 'Red Robbo', Scargill and all that kind of democratically elected people. Don't think people have forgotten those characters either. You supported them, did you, and their desire for a 'one party state'? Still do? Oh, and before you think I'm a defender of all things Capitalist, think again. Capitalism in it's worst manifestations has also taken a terrible toll of human lives and the human 'spirit' too of course. BUT, at the end of the day, the individual must and always will survive, so long as he and she has the capability to think and act for him and herself, and THAT is ultimately what will defeat you and your miss guided co-religionists. You can not escape that simple truth.

southy says...
1:52pm Thu 25 Feb 10

Scrutinizer, may i correct you a bit
i am not a stalist never have been and never will be. more so now days for stalin was a right-wing fascist him self, whatch the tv doc the russian story. you can tell what a person is by his actions and not by what he says. one of the biggest give ways on what he was, was when he sent back jews that escape from germany to russia back to germany, this is not the action of a socialist nor even a communist but the action of a fascist, plus a socialist do not kill other socialist or communist, communist will not kill socialist but they will drive them under ground like what happen and still happening china today.
i am a socialist to be a socialist means you care for people and what happens to them, you will not find this in any type of right wing, to be right wing you only care for your self the greed factor.
scargill and robbo are not and was not the union, the union is its members and not its leadership, the leadership do what the union members wants. some thing else for you to ponder about the ussr was not a socialist country it was communist then went to fascist with stalin and never returned back to communist afterwards but they carried on using the communist and socialist sticker. a socialist is just left of centre and a communist is left to far left. then there is those who are extreme left.

Major Sir Jerry Pending says...
2:15pm Thu 25 Feb 10

Typical Tory!!

Scrutinizer says...
12:22am Fri 26 Feb 10

You know, in all the words you have used during our exchange, not once, not O-N-C-E, have you mentioned the word 'individual'. Not once have you alluded to it even. Why? Because 'comrade', it is quite simply, and tragically actually, meaningless to you and your comrades' grand scheme of things'. Everything and everyone, must be sacrificed for the 'greater good' - as you and your co-religionists perceive it, and NOTHING and NO-ONE must get in the way. So tragic...

Well, well, and you know as well as I do, that 'Communists' have killed 'Socialists' and 'Socialists' have killed 'Communists' since the two names were first used and came into conflict with each other. In fact, not to confuse the issue any more than it might appear at first, but both names have been pretty much interchangeable since they were conceived! Oh, and you're about to tell me now that 'TRUE Socialism' has never been attempted. Or is Cuba about to hop skip and jump off your lips, as an example of 'success'? A place where one daren't speak out in opposition to ol'Fidel Raul and there mates, for fear of being oppressed. So, on the road to 'getting it right', globally, I suppose millions more have to be sacrificed, eh, comrade? The inevitability of the workers' rise to power 'n' all that?!
"Oh but comrade, we can't have the people questioning things along the way! Dear, dear no, NO! We must instill discipline comrade! The people must learn discipline or the revolution will fail! Think of all the wasted effort, the lives sacrificed, oh dear no, NO comrade! The stakes are far too high! If the people won't listen, then they will have to be...well...'persuad
ed'. Naturally, we will have no choice but to neutralise the most extreme troublemakers. You must surely see, appreciate, that we must succeed at all costs. It's for their own good comrade! Surely you see that? No...? NO?! Take him away and lock him up and throw the key away, will you. He obviously will never understand the necessities of responsibility and P-O-W-E-R!

And so, I ask this final question of you; HOW MANY MORE LABELS DO YOU WANT TO USE FOR WHAT YOU REPRESENT - UNTIL YOU 'GET IT RIGHT'?


Cllr Geoff Hockley Cllr Geoff Hockley

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