Dispatches to 'lift the lid' on working conditions on board Southampton based cruise ship Celebrity Eclipse

Daily Echo: Celebrity Eclipse berthed in Southampton Celebrity Eclipse berthed in Southampton

A ROW has broken out over a TV documentary which makers claim will lift the lid on poor working conditions on a Southampton -based cruise ship.

Undercover reporters say their secretly-filmed footage on the Celebrity Eclipse, which is docked in Southampton today ahead of a two-week trip to the Canaries and Azores, show standards for staff which are below British legal minimums.

However the head of the firm which runs the ship has already said she expects Channel 4’s Dispatches show, which is to air on Monday, will be “biased and unbalanced”.

Reporter Tazeen Ahmad travelled as a passenger and spent time working on board Celebrity Eclipse for the programme, which producers say is an examination of “life below deck for the multi-national workforce who toil behind the scenes of glamorous ocean going holidays”.

Jo Rzymowska, vice president and general manager at Celebrity Cruises - part of the Royal Caribbean firm, which is the second biggest cruising company in the world, behind Southampton-based Carnival – has made a pre-emptive attack on the documentary and refuted its claims.

She said: “Sadly, we are anticipating a biased and unbalanced programme about the labour and wage issues in the cruise industry – with Celebrity Eclipse as the show’s primary example.”

Ms Ryzmowska said the company is “committed” to providing quality cruise holidays, and had already taken steps “to investigate all of the allegations” made in the programme.

Promoting the show, Dispatches’ makers said: “Almost two million Brits took a cruise last year. For many, it’s the holiday of a lifetime with hard-earned savings going in to a dream adventure.

“Glossy marketing films and brochures depict a cheerful workforce dedicated to making a cruise a five star experience.

“Channel 4 Dispatches goes undercover to investigate the reality of life below deck for the multi-national workforce who toil behind the scenes of glamorous ocean going holidays.

“The cruise industry generates billions of pounds in revenue each year and working on a ship provides many people from around the world a much needed source of income.

“However Dispatches reporter Tazeen Ahmad – travelling as a passenger on a European cruise – and an undercover reporter working as an assistant waiter discover working conditions below the legal minimum in the UK.”

Comments (38)

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2:24pm Sat 29 Sep 12

J.P.M says...

/this is a scandal.

How can we supply a dirty, inadequate service to undeserving pensioners, when someone is watching!!
/this is a scandal. How can we supply a dirty, inadequate service to undeserving pensioners, when someone is watching!! J.P.M
  • Score: 0

2:26pm Sat 29 Sep 12

Portswoodfoke says...

Who cares? It's not like it matters to the UK. The boat is at sea, don't like it...get another job. Simples.
Who cares? It's not like it matters to the UK. The boat is at sea, don't like it...get another job. Simples. Portswoodfoke
  • Score: 0

2:51pm Sat 29 Sep 12

chunky_lover says...

To be honest, no one will really care. It's the usual guff for people to sit and stare at on tv.
To be honest, no one will really care. It's the usual guff for people to sit and stare at on tv. chunky_lover
  • Score: 0

3:09pm Sat 29 Sep 12

kingnotail says...

No surprise that the elitist cruise industry is exploiting its workers. The customers won't care, as you have to be a bit of a scumbag to go on a cruise anyway.
No surprise that the elitist cruise industry is exploiting its workers. The customers won't care, as you have to be a bit of a scumbag to go on a cruise anyway. kingnotail
  • Score: 0

3:19pm Sat 29 Sep 12

hulla baloo says...

kingnotail wrote:
No surprise that the elitist cruise industry is exploiting its workers. The customers won't care, as you have to be a bit of a scumbag to go on a cruise anyway.
What do you do holidays?
[quote][p][bold]kingnotail[/bold] wrote: No surprise that the elitist cruise industry is exploiting its workers. The customers won't care, as you have to be a bit of a scumbag to go on a cruise anyway.[/p][/quote]What do you do holidays? hulla baloo
  • Score: 0

3:51pm Sat 29 Sep 12

Rob444 says...

Just so long as the workers don't do unmentionable things to the passengers' food !
Just so long as the workers don't do unmentionable things to the passengers' food ! Rob444
  • Score: 0

4:19pm Sat 29 Sep 12

arthur dalyrimple says...

25p a hour is a bit on the low side.
25p a hour is a bit on the low side. arthur dalyrimple
  • Score: 0

4:50pm Sat 29 Sep 12

Family Man says...

But naturally had the reporter introduced themselves and announced what they were going to report on, Celebrity Cruises would have given them free access, unbiased interviews, no minders and no threats to staff should they report unfavourably. Or is that naive? Having said that, if working conditions are below those in the UK, should that be surprising? For a start they aren't in the UK...doh!
But naturally had the reporter introduced themselves and announced what they were going to report on, Celebrity Cruises would have given them free access, unbiased interviews, no minders and no threats to staff should they report unfavourably. Or is that naive? Having said that, if working conditions are below those in the UK, should that be surprising? For a start they aren't in the UK...doh! Family Man
  • Score: 0

4:57pm Sat 29 Sep 12

dolomiteman says...

Why are they making a point of the wages being below the legal british minium wage, the staff are not working in Britian. of course the program will be biased because its about the poor working conditions so will only air the bad bits.
Why are they making a point of the wages being below the legal british minium wage, the staff are not working in Britian. of course the program will be biased because its about the poor working conditions so will only air the bad bits. dolomiteman
  • Score: 0

5:24pm Sat 29 Sep 12

Torchie1 says...

There's a difference between life in London on a good salary and life in the slums of Bombay on a pittance, and if you normally inhabit Bombay then the cruise liners give an infinitely better lifestyle.
There's a difference between life in London on a good salary and life in the slums of Bombay on a pittance, and if you normally inhabit Bombay then the cruise liners give an infinitely better lifestyle. Torchie1
  • Score: 0

5:24pm Sat 29 Sep 12

cantthinkofone says...

Portswoodfoke wrote:
Who cares? It's not like it matters to the UK. The boat is at sea, don't like it...get another job. Simples.
Absolutely. Foreigners are even proper people anyway!
[quote][p][bold]Portswoodfoke[/bold] wrote: Who cares? It's not like it matters to the UK. The boat is at sea, don't like it...get another job. Simples.[/p][/quote]Absolutely. Foreigners are even proper people anyway! cantthinkofone
  • Score: 0

6:19pm Sat 29 Sep 12

mrblunt says...

This ship is not registered in the UK.
The crew are not UK residents, so why does it surprise anyone that the employment structure on this ship doesn't conform to UK employment law. It does however, give a better way of life to many of the crew, both financially and work conditions wise than being employed at home in their home countries.
I'm impressed with 'kingnotails' extensive knowledge of the cruise industry !!
This ship is not registered in the UK. The crew are not UK residents, so why does it surprise anyone that the employment structure on this ship doesn't conform to UK employment law. It does however, give a better way of life to many of the crew, both financially and work conditions wise than being employed at home in their home countries. I'm impressed with 'kingnotails' extensive knowledge of the cruise industry !! mrblunt
  • Score: 0

7:42pm Sat 29 Sep 12

chunky_lover says...

dolomiteman wrote:
Why are they making a point of the wages being below the legal british minium wage, the staff are not working in Britian. of course the program will be biased because its about the poor working conditions so will only air the bad bits.
Exactly.
[quote][p][bold]dolomiteman[/bold] wrote: Why are they making a point of the wages being below the legal british minium wage, the staff are not working in Britian. of course the program will be biased because its about the poor working conditions so will only air the bad bits.[/p][/quote]Exactly. chunky_lover
  • Score: 0

9:26pm Sat 29 Sep 12

Shoong says...

Wasn't there enough seamen to cover them all? A disgrace.
Wasn't there enough seamen to cover them all? A disgrace. Shoong
  • Score: 0

9:42pm Sat 29 Sep 12

Shoong says...

kingnotail wrote:
No surprise that the elitist cruise industry is exploiting its workers. The customers won't care, as you have to be a bit of a scumbag to go on a cruise anyway.
Your right, whenever I go on holiday I always ask how much the staff are being paid.

If I feel it's not enough then I don't go.

You do the same then? Yes, of course you do.
[quote][p][bold]kingnotail[/bold] wrote: No surprise that the elitist cruise industry is exploiting its workers. The customers won't care, as you have to be a bit of a scumbag to go on a cruise anyway.[/p][/quote]Your right, whenever I go on holiday I always ask how much the staff are being paid. If I feel it's not enough then I don't go. You do the same then? Yes, of course you do. Shoong
  • Score: 0

10:12pm Sat 29 Sep 12

southy says...

I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations.
And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up.

http://www.youtube.c
om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt
nc
I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc southy
  • Score: 0

10:31pm Sat 29 Sep 12

southy says...

-http://www.youtube.
com/watch?v=FVTBtciJ
tnc-
-http://www.youtube. com/watch?v=FVTBtciJ tnc- southy
  • Score: 0

10:59pm Sat 29 Sep 12

Torchie1 says...

southy wrote:
I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations.
And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up.

http://www.youtube.c

om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt

nc
If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc[/p][/quote]If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason. Torchie1
  • Score: 0

11:05pm Sat 29 Sep 12

dolomiteman says...

Southy, you need to understand how TV programing works, a program about poor working conditions will only show the a very limited selective portion poor conditions, you can find 'poor working conditions' in any workplace is you look harder enouigh and spend a look time looking for it. Less than one hour on your screen is a result of thousands of hours or research and filming.
And no I do not work in the cruise industry, I'm just not dumb enough to beleive every program I watch.Two sides to every coin etc.
Southy, you need to understand how TV programing works, a program about poor working conditions will only show the a very limited selective portion poor conditions, you can find 'poor working conditions' in any workplace is you look harder enouigh and spend a look time looking for it. Less than one hour on your screen is a result of thousands of hours or research and filming. And no I do not work in the cruise industry, I'm just not dumb enough to beleive every program I watch.Two sides to every coin etc. dolomiteman
  • Score: 0

7:51am Sun 30 Sep 12

snapperdownunder says...

"Reporter Tazeen Ahmad travelled as a passenger and spent time working on board Celebrity Eclipse ......."
Since when have passengers worked during a cruise?
"Reporter Tazeen Ahmad travelled as a passenger and spent time working on board Celebrity Eclipse ......." Since when have passengers worked during a cruise? snapperdownunder
  • Score: 0

7:58am Sun 30 Sep 12

G-man1 says...

Just because these sailors earn more working on a ship than they could staying at home in a slum doesn`t actually make it morally right for the cruise companies to treat the staff so poorly. Dickens used to write aboout this sort of exploitation in the 19th century and everyone agreed it was shocking. Why is it ok in the 21st century because the exploited are foreigners?
Just because these sailors earn more working on a ship than they could staying at home in a slum doesn`t actually make it morally right for the cruise companies to treat the staff so poorly. Dickens used to write aboout this sort of exploitation in the 19th century and everyone agreed it was shocking. Why is it ok in the 21st century because the exploited are foreigners? G-man1
  • Score: 0

7:58am Sun 30 Sep 12

southy says...

snapperdownunder wrote:
"Reporter Tazeen Ahmad travelled as a passenger and spent time working on board Celebrity Eclipse ......."
Since when have passengers worked during a cruise?
Tazeen Ahmad was a passenger is right, but some of the Tv Reporting crew got employed and Ship Crew Members.
[quote][p][bold]snapperdownunder[/bold] wrote: "Reporter Tazeen Ahmad travelled as a passenger and spent time working on board Celebrity Eclipse ......." Since when have passengers worked during a cruise?[/p][/quote]Tazeen Ahmad was a passenger is right, but some of the Tv Reporting crew got employed and Ship Crew Members. southy
  • Score: 0

8:02am Sun 30 Sep 12

southy says...

dolomiteman wrote:
Southy, you need to understand how TV programing works, a program about poor working conditions will only show the a very limited selective portion poor conditions, you can find 'poor working conditions' in any workplace is you look harder enouigh and spend a look time looking for it. Less than one hour on your screen is a result of thousands of hours or research and filming.
And no I do not work in the cruise industry, I'm just not dumb enough to beleive every program I watch.Two sides to every coin etc.
"you can find 'poor working conditions' in any workplace is you look harder enouigh and spend a look time looking for it."

Look at what you said "Look harder" and thats the point you do not need to look hard on these ships to see how bad the working conditions are, its going on whole sale.
[quote][p][bold]dolomiteman[/bold] wrote: Southy, you need to understand how TV programing works, a program about poor working conditions will only show the a very limited selective portion poor conditions, you can find 'poor working conditions' in any workplace is you look harder enouigh and spend a look time looking for it. Less than one hour on your screen is a result of thousands of hours or research and filming. And no I do not work in the cruise industry, I'm just not dumb enough to beleive every program I watch.Two sides to every coin etc.[/p][/quote]"you can find 'poor working conditions' in any workplace is you look harder enouigh and spend a look time looking for it." Look at what you said "Look harder" and thats the point you do not need to look hard on these ships to see how bad the working conditions are, its going on whole sale. southy
  • Score: 0

8:08am Sun 30 Sep 12

southy says...

Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations.
And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up.

http://www.youtube.c


om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt


nc
If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.
Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world.
I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse.
If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.
[quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc[/p][/quote]If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.[/p][/quote]Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips. southy
  • Score: 0

9:09am Sun 30 Sep 12

Huffter says...

southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc
If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.
Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.
" since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse."
Best keep quiet in future, Southy!
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc[/p][/quote]If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.[/p][/quote]Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.[/p][/quote]" since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse." Best keep quiet in future, Southy! Huffter
  • Score: 0

9:13am Sun 30 Sep 12

southy says...

Huffter wrote:
southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc
If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.
Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.
" since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse."
Best keep quiet in future, Southy!
no it need to be bought to the attention of people, Condor Ferries are one that not long ago hit the news for there social dumping.
this is the 21st century not the 17th century.
[quote][p][bold]Huffter[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc[/p][/quote]If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.[/p][/quote]Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.[/p][/quote]" since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse." Best keep quiet in future, Southy![/p][/quote]no it need to be bought to the attention of people, Condor Ferries are one that not long ago hit the news for there social dumping. this is the 21st century not the 17th century. southy
  • Score: 0

10:00am Sun 30 Sep 12

Torchie1 says...

southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations.
And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up.

http://www.youtube.c



om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt



nc
If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.
Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world.
I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse.
If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.
Are you suggesting that the crew quarters are poor by design or have they got that way because of the way the crews look after them? As usual you are trying to whip up a frenzy over their wages and I'm sure like everyone, they would like more. There isn't a global pay-scale for anyone and the President/Prime Minister of a flyblown third world country isn't paid the same as the president of the United states. In the same way these foreign crew members aren't paid at UK rates because the salary could be on a par with a much more authoritative position in their home country. The crew pay scales of foreign members are agreed or maybe even set by their own governments and it's been that way for years whether you agree or not. Huge parts of the world shipping industry don't employ foreign crews for no reason at all and it's a larger scale version of people buying their rolling tobacco 'under the counter' because it's cheaper.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc[/p][/quote]If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.[/p][/quote]Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.[/p][/quote]Are you suggesting that the crew quarters are poor by design or have they got that way because of the way the crews look after them? As usual you are trying to whip up a frenzy over their wages and I'm sure like everyone, they would like more. There isn't a global pay-scale for anyone and the President/Prime Minister of a flyblown third world country isn't paid the same as the president of the United states. In the same way these foreign crew members aren't paid at UK rates because the salary could be on a par with a much more authoritative position in their home country. The crew pay scales of foreign members are agreed or maybe even set by their own governments and it's been that way for years whether you agree or not. Huge parts of the world shipping industry don't employ foreign crews for no reason at all and it's a larger scale version of people buying their rolling tobacco 'under the counter' because it's cheaper. Torchie1
  • Score: 0

10:21am Sun 30 Sep 12

ohec says...

I think its very wrong to pick on one operator they should do a program that covers the who;e industry and then maybe it might have some relevance, and the same applies to the crew as any other worker if you don't like the job go elsewhere.Some people might watch the program and be horrified but who's to say SAGA or anybody else would be any different, its that old saying (what the eye don't see the heart won't grieve over) and that applies on ships in hotels in hospitals anywhere there is the public face and the business end.
I think its very wrong to pick on one operator they should do a program that covers the who;e industry and then maybe it might have some relevance, and the same applies to the crew as any other worker if you don't like the job go elsewhere.Some people might watch the program and be horrified but who's to say SAGA or anybody else would be any different, its that old saying (what the eye don't see the heart won't grieve over) and that applies on ships in hotels in hospitals anywhere there is the public face and the business end. ohec
  • Score: 0

10:21am Sun 30 Sep 12

southy says...

Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations.
And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up.

http://www.youtube.c




om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt




nc
If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.
Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world.
I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse.
If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.
Are you suggesting that the crew quarters are poor by design or have they got that way because of the way the crews look after them? As usual you are trying to whip up a frenzy over their wages and I'm sure like everyone, they would like more. There isn't a global pay-scale for anyone and the President/Prime Minister of a flyblown third world country isn't paid the same as the president of the United states. In the same way these foreign crew members aren't paid at UK rates because the salary could be on a par with a much more authoritative position in their home country. The crew pay scales of foreign members are agreed or maybe even set by their own governments and it's been that way for years whether you agree or not. Huge parts of the world shipping industry don't employ foreign crews for no reason at all and it's a larger scale version of people buying their rolling tobacco 'under the counter' because it's cheaper.
No the pay scales are set by the Shipping companys them selfs, its paid slave labour, and if any crew member takes it with the company about pay and working conditions, they will dump them in what ever port they are in or call into next and leave them. Like what happened to 6 East Indian Crew Memebers not to long ago.
Crew quarters are worse than what I had to endue back in the 70's, at lest there was only 2 a small cabin back then, now they fit 6 into the same space and take shifts to be able to sleep, many of the crew got to eat standing up because there is not enough room to sit down.
It as nothing to do with buying cheap tobacco under the counter, apart from that shops do not sell under the counter tobacco so be very carefull what you say in that direction. This about Human Rights being Broken and how people are treated on ships.
Its time the Crews all joined a Union, not that they can if a crew member is found out that they belong to a Union they are dump at the next port of call.

Before you post again go and listen to what Rowlings said back in 2010 about Tax Advoiders and why she will not be one. Or are you like others trying to disinformation and trying to stop the truth to being told.
[quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc[/p][/quote]If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.[/p][/quote]Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.[/p][/quote]Are you suggesting that the crew quarters are poor by design or have they got that way because of the way the crews look after them? As usual you are trying to whip up a frenzy over their wages and I'm sure like everyone, they would like more. There isn't a global pay-scale for anyone and the President/Prime Minister of a flyblown third world country isn't paid the same as the president of the United states. In the same way these foreign crew members aren't paid at UK rates because the salary could be on a par with a much more authoritative position in their home country. The crew pay scales of foreign members are agreed or maybe even set by their own governments and it's been that way for years whether you agree or not. Huge parts of the world shipping industry don't employ foreign crews for no reason at all and it's a larger scale version of people buying their rolling tobacco 'under the counter' because it's cheaper.[/p][/quote]No the pay scales are set by the Shipping companys them selfs, its paid slave labour, and if any crew member takes it with the company about pay and working conditions, they will dump them in what ever port they are in or call into next and leave them. Like what happened to 6 East Indian Crew Memebers not to long ago. Crew quarters are worse than what I had to endue back in the 70's, at lest there was only 2 a small cabin back then, now they fit 6 into the same space and take shifts to be able to sleep, many of the crew got to eat standing up because there is not enough room to sit down. It as nothing to do with buying cheap tobacco under the counter, apart from that shops do not sell under the counter tobacco so be very carefull what you say in that direction. This about Human Rights being Broken and how people are treated on ships. Its time the Crews all joined a Union, not that they can if a crew member is found out that they belong to a Union they are dump at the next port of call. Before you post again go and listen to what Rowlings said back in 2010 about Tax Advoiders and why she will not be one. Or are you like others trying to disinformation and trying to stop the truth to being told. southy
  • Score: 0

10:43am Sun 30 Sep 12

Torchie1 says...

southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations.
And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up.

http://www.youtube.c





om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt





nc
If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.
Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world.
I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse.
If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.
Are you suggesting that the crew quarters are poor by design or have they got that way because of the way the crews look after them? As usual you are trying to whip up a frenzy over their wages and I'm sure like everyone, they would like more. There isn't a global pay-scale for anyone and the President/Prime Minister of a flyblown third world country isn't paid the same as the president of the United states. In the same way these foreign crew members aren't paid at UK rates because the salary could be on a par with a much more authoritative position in their home country. The crew pay scales of foreign members are agreed or maybe even set by their own governments and it's been that way for years whether you agree or not. Huge parts of the world shipping industry don't employ foreign crews for no reason at all and it's a larger scale version of people buying their rolling tobacco 'under the counter' because it's cheaper.
No the pay scales are set by the Shipping companys them selfs, its paid slave labour, and if any crew member takes it with the company about pay and working conditions, they will dump them in what ever port they are in or call into next and leave them. Like what happened to 6 East Indian Crew Memebers not to long ago.
Crew quarters are worse than what I had to endue back in the 70's, at lest there was only 2 a small cabin back then, now they fit 6 into the same space and take shifts to be able to sleep, many of the crew got to eat standing up because there is not enough room to sit down.
It as nothing to do with buying cheap tobacco under the counter, apart from that shops do not sell under the counter tobacco so be very carefull what you say in that direction. This about Human Rights being Broken and how people are treated on ships.
Its time the Crews all joined a Union, not that they can if a crew member is found out that they belong to a Union they are dump at the next port of call.

Before you post again go and listen to what Rowlings said back in 2010 about Tax Advoiders and why she will not be one. Or are you like others trying to disinformation and trying to stop the truth to being told.
The shipping company does not set the pay scale and I can state categorically that it is agreed with the government of the crew involved. Don't try to argue based on what you think may be the case or what you'd like because I'm quoting facts and agreements that you'll never understand. Why do you moan about Eastern Europeans providing cheaper contract labour for the Fawley Refinery turnarounds? I'm sure you have personal knowledge of six crew abandoned by a callous Captain but if I asked for more details I would be told to look for them myself so I won't bother asking about that fairy story.Now it seems the crews are 'hot bunking' in the way that Royal Navy submarine crews do so will the next argument be for doubling the size of these vessels to allow submarine crews to have one bunk each? You still can't quite bring yourself to confess to tax avoidance through buying 'under the counter' (this is a common expression not a description) but other people seem to be aware of it now so perhaps they know who you buy from as well. Human Rights don't even come in to the equation and it shows a lack of knowledge of those simple rights that you think it does. They could form a union and then end up like the Brittany Ferry crews with passengers still travelling on alternative ships and the likelihood that the owners will just say it's not worth the effort with winter approaching and seasonal bookings tailing off so lets close the operation and just pay the crew their redundancy pay. Look at the date on your newspaper and it should end with the year 2012 not 1900 where you live in your muddled mind.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc[/p][/quote]If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.[/p][/quote]Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.[/p][/quote]Are you suggesting that the crew quarters are poor by design or have they got that way because of the way the crews look after them? As usual you are trying to whip up a frenzy over their wages and I'm sure like everyone, they would like more. There isn't a global pay-scale for anyone and the President/Prime Minister of a flyblown third world country isn't paid the same as the president of the United states. In the same way these foreign crew members aren't paid at UK rates because the salary could be on a par with a much more authoritative position in their home country. The crew pay scales of foreign members are agreed or maybe even set by their own governments and it's been that way for years whether you agree or not. Huge parts of the world shipping industry don't employ foreign crews for no reason at all and it's a larger scale version of people buying their rolling tobacco 'under the counter' because it's cheaper.[/p][/quote]No the pay scales are set by the Shipping companys them selfs, its paid slave labour, and if any crew member takes it with the company about pay and working conditions, they will dump them in what ever port they are in or call into next and leave them. Like what happened to 6 East Indian Crew Memebers not to long ago. Crew quarters are worse than what I had to endue back in the 70's, at lest there was only 2 a small cabin back then, now they fit 6 into the same space and take shifts to be able to sleep, many of the crew got to eat standing up because there is not enough room to sit down. It as nothing to do with buying cheap tobacco under the counter, apart from that shops do not sell under the counter tobacco so be very carefull what you say in that direction. This about Human Rights being Broken and how people are treated on ships. Its time the Crews all joined a Union, not that they can if a crew member is found out that they belong to a Union they are dump at the next port of call. Before you post again go and listen to what Rowlings said back in 2010 about Tax Advoiders and why she will not be one. Or are you like others trying to disinformation and trying to stop the truth to being told.[/p][/quote]The shipping company does not set the pay scale and I can state categorically that it is agreed with the government of the crew involved. Don't try to argue based on what you think may be the case or what you'd like because I'm quoting facts and agreements that you'll never understand. Why do you moan about Eastern Europeans providing cheaper contract labour for the Fawley Refinery turnarounds? I'm sure you have personal knowledge of six crew abandoned by a callous Captain but if I asked for more details I would be told to look for them myself so I won't bother asking about that fairy story.Now it seems the crews are 'hot bunking' in the way that Royal Navy submarine crews do so will the next argument be for doubling the size of these vessels to allow submarine crews to have one bunk each? You still can't quite bring yourself to confess to tax avoidance through buying 'under the counter' (this is a common expression not a description) but other people seem to be aware of it now so perhaps they know who you buy from as well. Human Rights don't even come in to the equation and it shows a lack of knowledge of those simple rights that you think it does. They could form a union and then end up like the Brittany Ferry crews with passengers still travelling on alternative ships and the likelihood that the owners will just say it's not worth the effort with winter approaching and seasonal bookings tailing off so lets close the operation and just pay the crew their redundancy pay. Look at the date on your newspaper and it should end with the year 2012 not 1900 where you live in your muddled mind. Torchie1
  • Score: 0

11:42am Sun 30 Sep 12

dolomiteman says...

Southy said....
'It as nothing to do with buying cheap tobacco under the counter, apart from that shops do not sell under the counter tobacco so be very carefull what you say in that direction'

A perfect case of 'what the eyes don't see'.. I could name two Southampton shops that are doing this that are under investigations and at least five more which the police have been told about.
Southy said.... 'It as nothing to do with buying cheap tobacco under the counter, apart from that shops do not sell under the counter tobacco so be very carefull what you say in that direction' A perfect case of 'what the eyes don't see'.. I could name two Southampton shops that are doing this that are under investigations and at least five more which the police have been told about. dolomiteman
  • Score: 0

12:25pm Sun 30 Sep 12

Northamboy says...

If you ask the rank and file crew if they are happy working for little money they reply that they are. They are far better off working for the cruise industry than they would be at home.

Watch the crew when they go into Southampton city centre, it's straight into Argos! I am not saying the low pay is right because it's obviously not but at least they have a better lifestyle than they do at home. They are not held captive, they are free to go home if they wish but they choose to stay.
If you ask the rank and file crew if they are happy working for little money they reply that they are. They are far better off working for the cruise industry than they would be at home. Watch the crew when they go into Southampton city centre, it's straight into Argos! I am not saying the low pay is right because it's obviously not but at least they have a better lifestyle than they do at home. They are not held captive, they are free to go home if they wish but they choose to stay. Northamboy
  • Score: 0

12:29pm Sun 30 Sep 12

Georgem says...

southy wrote:
Huffter wrote:
southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc
If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.
Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.
" since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse."
Best keep quiet in future, Southy!
no it need to be bought to the attention of people, Condor Ferries are one that not long ago hit the news for there social dumping.
this is the 21st century not the 17th century.
He's jokingly saying that you highlighting it has caused the wage decrease!
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Huffter[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc[/p][/quote]If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.[/p][/quote]Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.[/p][/quote]" since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse." Best keep quiet in future, Southy![/p][/quote]no it need to be bought to the attention of people, Condor Ferries are one that not long ago hit the news for there social dumping. this is the 21st century not the 17th century.[/p][/quote]He's jokingly saying that you highlighting it has caused the wage decrease! Georgem
  • Score: 0

3:03pm Sun 30 Sep 12

Shoong says...

southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations.
And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up.

http://www.youtube.c





om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt





nc
If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.
Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world.
I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse.
If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.
Are you suggesting that the crew quarters are poor by design or have they got that way because of the way the crews look after them? As usual you are trying to whip up a frenzy over their wages and I'm sure like everyone, they would like more. There isn't a global pay-scale for anyone and the President/Prime Minister of a flyblown third world country isn't paid the same as the president of the United states. In the same way these foreign crew members aren't paid at UK rates because the salary could be on a par with a much more authoritative position in their home country. The crew pay scales of foreign members are agreed or maybe even set by their own governments and it's been that way for years whether you agree or not. Huge parts of the world shipping industry don't employ foreign crews for no reason at all and it's a larger scale version of people buying their rolling tobacco 'under the counter' because it's cheaper.
No the pay scales are set by the Shipping companys them selfs, its paid slave labour, and if any crew member takes it with the company about pay and working conditions, they will dump them in what ever port they are in or call into next and leave them. Like what happened to 6 East Indian Crew Memebers not to long ago.
Crew quarters are worse than what I had to endue back in the 70's, at lest there was only 2 a small cabin back then, now they fit 6 into the same space and take shifts to be able to sleep, many of the crew got to eat standing up because there is not enough room to sit down.
It as nothing to do with buying cheap tobacco under the counter, apart from that shops do not sell under the counter tobacco so be very carefull what you say in that direction. This about Human Rights being Broken and how people are treated on ships.
Its time the Crews all joined a Union, not that they can if a crew member is found out that they belong to a Union they are dump at the next port of call.

Before you post again go and listen to what Rowlings said back in 2010 about Tax Advoiders and why she will not be one. Or are you like others trying to disinformation and trying to stop the truth to being told.
They are of course, much better off in slums without the ability to send money home to families.

You'd have them knee deep in their own excrement and schooling them in a victim complex just to join your cause.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: I suggest that you all watch it, it will be an eye opener to you all how the rich western world companys treat people of a poorer nations. And while your all at it have a look at what J. K. Rowling said about the rich Tax advoiders of Britain and the USA back in 2010 that has pop back up. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=FVTBtciJt nc[/p][/quote]If it was so bad why don't these aggrieved sailors stay at home and work locally? It's just another documentary trying to make a story out of nothing that only appeals to those without the power of reason.[/p][/quote]Its not a story out of nothing, this is going on Whole Sale right the way though the whole shipping industry around the world. I personally high lighted this years ago on this Echo Web Site and got told I was lieing about there wages and working conditions, and since I high lighted this, there wages have gone down even more and conditions have got worse. If you ever and any one else that reads this go on a cruise get to know a crew member and get them to show you around the crews quarters and and look at there wage slips.[/p][/quote]Are you suggesting that the crew quarters are poor by design or have they got that way because of the way the crews look after them? As usual you are trying to whip up a frenzy over their wages and I'm sure like everyone, they would like more. There isn't a global pay-scale for anyone and the President/Prime Minister of a flyblown third world country isn't paid the same as the president of the United states. In the same way these foreign crew members aren't paid at UK rates because the salary could be on a par with a much more authoritative position in their home country. The crew pay scales of foreign members are agreed or maybe even set by their own governments and it's been that way for years whether you agree or not. Huge parts of the world shipping industry don't employ foreign crews for no reason at all and it's a larger scale version of people buying their rolling tobacco 'under the counter' because it's cheaper.[/p][/quote]No the pay scales are set by the Shipping companys them selfs, its paid slave labour, and if any crew member takes it with the company about pay and working conditions, they will dump them in what ever port they are in or call into next and leave them. Like what happened to 6 East Indian Crew Memebers not to long ago. Crew quarters are worse than what I had to endue back in the 70's, at lest there was only 2 a small cabin back then, now they fit 6 into the same space and take shifts to be able to sleep, many of the crew got to eat standing up because there is not enough room to sit down. It as nothing to do with buying cheap tobacco under the counter, apart from that shops do not sell under the counter tobacco so be very carefull what you say in that direction. This about Human Rights being Broken and how people are treated on ships. Its time the Crews all joined a Union, not that they can if a crew member is found out that they belong to a Union they are dump at the next port of call. Before you post again go and listen to what Rowlings said back in 2010 about Tax Advoiders and why she will not be one. Or are you like others trying to disinformation and trying to stop the truth to being told.[/p][/quote]They are of course, much better off in slums without the ability to send money home to families. You'd have them knee deep in their own excrement and schooling them in a victim complex just to join your cause. Shoong
  • Score: 0

4:02pm Sun 30 Sep 12

sameoldscene says...

And make sure you always "opt out" of the automatic daily tipping charge. These cruise companies DO NOT pass on your money to these workers, it just gets pooled in to their wage system........FACT.
And make sure you always "opt out" of the automatic daily tipping charge. These cruise companies DO NOT pass on your money to these workers, it just gets pooled in to their wage system........FACT. sameoldscene
  • Score: 0

6:11pm Sun 30 Sep 12

rightway says...

Who Cares.
These people where quick enough to take the jobs from British Seaman.
No documentaries where made about the thousands of British Seaman who where forced down the gangway for the smiling third world replacements to walk up it.
They work for a few years under these conditions then retire to a better standard of living that most in this country will ever achieve, no matter how long or hard they,ve worked.
If they don't like it let them strike the way the British Seaman did in 1966, see how long they'll have their jobs then.
Who Cares. These people where quick enough to take the jobs from British Seaman. No documentaries where made about the thousands of British Seaman who where forced down the gangway for the smiling third world replacements to walk up it. They work for a few years under these conditions then retire to a better standard of living that most in this country will ever achieve, no matter how long or hard they,ve worked. If they don't like it let them strike the way the British Seaman did in 1966, see how long they'll have their jobs then. rightway
  • Score: 0

6:18pm Sun 30 Sep 12

mack chinnon says...

Northamboy wrote:
If you ask the rank and file crew if they are happy working for little money they reply that they are. They are far better off working for the cruise industry than they would be at home.

Watch the crew when they go into Southampton city centre, it's straight into Argos! I am not saying the low pay is right because it's obviously not but at least they have a better lifestyle than they do at home. They are not held captive, they are free to go home if they wish but they choose to stay.
As my old bosun used to say "theres no barbed wire on the gangway"
[quote][p][bold]Northamboy[/bold] wrote: If you ask the rank and file crew if they are happy working for little money they reply that they are. They are far better off working for the cruise industry than they would be at home. Watch the crew when they go into Southampton city centre, it's straight into Argos! I am not saying the low pay is right because it's obviously not but at least they have a better lifestyle than they do at home. They are not held captive, they are free to go home if they wish but they choose to stay.[/p][/quote]As my old bosun used to say "theres no barbed wire on the gangway" mack chinnon
  • Score: 0

11:33pm Mon 1 Oct 12

southy says...

I hope most of you watch wath channel 4 and see how wrong you are, British Agencys Employing people with orders from shipping companys on there pay.
I hope most of you watch wath channel 4 and see how wrong you are, British Agencys Employing people with orders from shipping companys on there pay. southy
  • Score: 0

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