Union angry over Ford bosses lack of promises over future of Southampton's Transit plant

Ford Transit Factiry, in Swaythling, Southampton

Ford Transit Factiry, in Swaythling, Southampton

First published in Ford Transit Factory Daily Echo: Photograph of the Author by , Eastleigh Chief Reporter

UNION bosses say workers at the giant Southampton Ford plant have been “slapped in the face” by Ford’s management, who have refused to guarantee the long-term future of the plant.

The bombshell came from the new top-level Ford chief Steve Adams, who said that while the motor giant planned to build chassis cabs at the Swaythling factory, the plans had yet to be approved in regard to the new vehicles range.

He also said the Southampton team would face “challenges”

and the factory must continue to produce high quality vehicles to ensure its survival.

Nick Chaffey, of the National Network of Shop Stewards and a Ford campaigner, said: “This kind of uncertainty will make workers on the shop floor extremely angry.

“Many people feared downsizing the plant was a partial closure and the first step in an exit strategy for the motor giant and this news will reignite those concerns.

“If any further cuts come unions and the public will have to launch the mother of all campaigns to resist it.”

In his exclusive interview with the Daily Echo, Mr Adams, the firm’s new Ford of Europe commercial line director, said workers may have to wait a year before they find out what the l o n g - t e rm future holds for the Southampton plant.

Mr Adams confirmed the board had given the green light to the current chassis cabs being produced at the factory but that another application would need to be made as the new vehicle range was introduced.

He said the intention for the future was to link the chassis cab to Southampton but this had not been approved and he admitted the unfolding economic climate and customer demand would influence Ford plans.

He added it was hoped the recession was coming to an end so demand for the chassis cabs would recover to 35,000 and the future of the industry and the Southampton plant could become more secure.

One worker, who wished to remain anonymous, said: “The non-committal message sets off alarm bells for me and other workers who watched the rumours come out last year and then the mass redundancies early this year.”

Question marks over the future of the Ford factory came to light when the Daily Echo published a leaked company memo revealing plans to cut jobs, slash output and export production of the iconic Transit to Turkey.

These plans were pushed back after the company was hit by the recession.

Comments (22)

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10:36am Thu 10 Dec 09

Carpe Diem says...

Nick Chaffey needs to wake up and smell the coffee. How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ? Withholding their labour is probably the only action they can take - don't think that will work. Maybe stage a sit in ? Look how that turned out at Vestas on the IoW. If Ford decide to move abroad they will, nothing you can do about it other than start looking for another job now.
Nick Chaffey needs to wake up and smell the coffee. How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ? Withholding their labour is probably the only action they can take - don't think that will work. Maybe stage a sit in ? Look how that turned out at Vestas on the IoW. If Ford decide to move abroad they will, nothing you can do about it other than start looking for another job now. Carpe Diem
  • Score: 0

10:36am Thu 10 Dec 09

Brite Spark says...

Rumours on the bbc that Portsmouth are denying having gone into administration !!!!!!

Brite Spark first with the news!!
Rumours on the bbc that Portsmouth are denying having gone into administration !!!!!! Brite Spark first with the news!! Brite Spark
  • Score: 0

11:31am Thu 10 Dec 09

Militant Ford Worker says...

Surely there is no surprise here.
In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track.
We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab.
Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot.
Question is..what are you going to do about it?
"How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way.
Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot.
If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there.
We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford.
Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.
Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country. Militant Ford Worker
  • Score: 0

11:45am Thu 10 Dec 09

Carpe Diem says...

Militant Ford Worker wrote:
Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.
I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.
[quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.[/p][/quote]I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant. Carpe Diem
  • Score: 0

11:54am Thu 10 Dec 09

goard says...

I would not mind thinking that those that had redundancy pay are glad they had got out - they may carry baggage now but at least the shear frustration from week to week whether they have a job or not must be a relief. Now the present employees will agonize for the next year or two and need nerves of steel. All I can say - at least they have the time to organise their home expenditure - however painful, but if they keep their jobs then it is no bad thing to 'put their house in order' - even if their pride has been destroyed. I would say Government has destroyed us - selling anything that moves and consequently big business can move and make or bankrupt a Country - money is power.

goard
I would not mind thinking that those that had redundancy pay are glad they had got out - they may carry baggage now but at least the shear frustration from week to week whether they have a job or not must be a relief. Now the present employees will agonize for the next year or two and need nerves of steel. All I can say - at least they have the time to organise their home expenditure - however painful, but if they keep their jobs then it is no bad thing to 'put their house in order' - even if their pride has been destroyed. I would say Government has destroyed us - selling anything that moves and consequently big business can move and make or bankrupt a Country - money is power. goard goard
  • Score: 0

11:59am Thu 10 Dec 09

Militant Ford Worker says...

Carpe Diem wrote:
Militant Ford Worker wrote:
Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.
I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.
No, you are quite right. 500 people stood outside the plant will only make local headlines. 500 people walking out the plant getting on a fleet of coaches and getting out in their work gear outside Parliament or Downing St holding up signs saying 'Save our jobs' 'we want work'. 'Save British Industry' etc will get National Coverage, publicise our struggle and make things embarressing for the Government and Ford.
Nothing we can do will hasten the demise of the Plant. That has obviously been decided and they will stick to their timetable.
[quote][p][bold]Carpe Diem[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.[/p][/quote]I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.[/p][/quote]No, you are quite right. 500 people stood outside the plant will only make local headlines. 500 people walking out the plant getting on a fleet of coaches and getting out in their work gear outside Parliament or Downing St holding up signs saying 'Save our jobs' 'we want work'. 'Save British Industry' etc will get National Coverage, publicise our struggle and make things embarressing for the Government and Ford. Nothing we can do will hasten the demise of the Plant. That has obviously been decided and they will stick to their timetable. Militant Ford Worker
  • Score: 0

1:13pm Thu 10 Dec 09

My View from the Hill says...

Militant Ford Worker wrote:
Carpe Diem wrote:
Militant Ford Worker wrote:
Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.
I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.
No, you are quite right. 500 people stood outside the plant will only make local headlines. 500 people walking out the plant getting on a fleet of coaches and getting out in their work gear outside Parliament or Downing St holding up signs saying 'Save our jobs' 'we want work'. 'Save British Industry' etc will get National Coverage, publicise our struggle and make things embarressing for the Government and Ford.
Nothing we can do will hasten the demise of the Plant. That has obviously been decided and they will stick to their timetable.
I fear even that stance will be too little too late, I really think it's a done deal, in time everything will go to Turkey, all of the area's MP's (especially John Denham) need to lobby the Government to impose import taxes.

Why should our workforce lose their jobs, some may lose their homes, surely as secretary of state of for communities John Denham can see that a working community is far better than an unemployed community, but I fear he will use the excuse that if he lobbies his colleagues in the cabinet for jobs for Southampton workers, it will seen as favouritism and a conflict of interest, just like he did with collages fiasco.
[quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Carpe Diem[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.[/p][/quote]I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.[/p][/quote]No, you are quite right. 500 people stood outside the plant will only make local headlines. 500 people walking out the plant getting on a fleet of coaches and getting out in their work gear outside Parliament or Downing St holding up signs saying 'Save our jobs' 'we want work'. 'Save British Industry' etc will get National Coverage, publicise our struggle and make things embarressing for the Government and Ford. Nothing we can do will hasten the demise of the Plant. That has obviously been decided and they will stick to their timetable.[/p][/quote]I fear even that stance will be too little too late, I really think it's a done deal, in time everything will go to Turkey, all of the area's MP's (especially John Denham) need to lobby the Government to impose import taxes. Why should our workforce lose their jobs, some may lose their homes, surely as secretary of state of for communities John Denham can see that a working community is far better than an unemployed community, but I fear he will use the excuse that if he lobbies his colleagues in the cabinet for jobs for Southampton workers, it will seen as favouritism and a conflict of interest, just like he did with collages fiasco. My View from the Hill
  • Score: 0

1:26pm Thu 10 Dec 09

Carpe Diem says...

Import taxes on goods imported from Turkey will not save British jobs. If the goods from Turkey are too expensive buyers will look for the next available cheap option - Mercedes, Peugeot, Vauxhall (Opel). Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no British offering in the van market now that LDV has gone. Everybody had the chance to protect British jobs by buying an LDV vehicle but chose not to.
Import taxes on goods imported from Turkey will not save British jobs. If the goods from Turkey are too expensive buyers will look for the next available cheap option - Mercedes, Peugeot, Vauxhall (Opel). Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no British offering in the van market now that LDV has gone. Everybody had the chance to protect British jobs by buying an LDV vehicle but chose not to. Carpe Diem
  • Score: 0

2:51pm Thu 10 Dec 09

clausentum says...

My View from the Hill wrote:
Militant Ford Worker wrote:
Carpe Diem wrote:
Militant Ford Worker wrote:
Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.
I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.
No, you are quite right. 500 people stood outside the plant will only make local headlines. 500 people walking out the plant getting on a fleet of coaches and getting out in their work gear outside Parliament or Downing St holding up signs saying 'Save our jobs' 'we want work'. 'Save British Industry' etc will get National Coverage, publicise our struggle and make things embarressing for the Government and Ford.
Nothing we can do will hasten the demise of the Plant. That has obviously been decided and they will stick to their timetable.
I fear even that stance will be too little too late, I really think it's a done deal, in time everything will go to Turkey, all of the area's MP's (especially John Denham) need to lobby the Government to impose import taxes.

Why should our workforce lose their jobs, some may lose their homes, surely as secretary of state of for communities John Denham can see that a working community is far better than an unemployed community, but I fear he will use the excuse that if he lobbies his colleagues in the cabinet for jobs for Southampton workers, it will seen as favouritism and a conflict of interest, just like he did with collages fiasco.
What is the point berating John Denham? He has no influence and is a small-time, invisible, bit player in terms of global employment markets. He is insignificant. He cannot do anything to protect jobs. Neither can any other British politician of any party.

The hard reality for British manufacturing workers is that multi-national companies have massively shifted their manufacturing sites to Third World or Second World countries where labour costs are 10% of those in First World countries.

This may be lamentable but is unstoppable. It may feel like a moral issue but in truth it is a cold, hard business issue that brings with it the casualties of jobless working people and devastation to them and their families.

The rapid pace/expansion of Globalisation of manufacturing will even speed up when "green" manufacturing jobs, for new "green" products are created. Most of the new jobs will not be created in First World countries.

What is the answer for British manufacturing workers and all other First World manufacturing workers?

An enlightened government with the vision and the will to retrain those workers into non-manufacturing jobs.

The problem with that, is that those First World country governments are totally strapped for cash - the recession busted their public coffers and they are in debt up to their eyeballs with that debt likely hanging around for the next 20 years.

Sadly, manufacturing workers are stuck between a rock and a hard place, witnessing the inevitable loss of their jobs and no easy replacement job on the horizon.

I'm not a supporter of Capitalism. Neither am I a supporter of Socialism. But I am a realist and people who bang on about cheap labour overseas and an ineffective British government need to stand back and take in the wider, bigger picture . . . The World is changing at warp factor 8 speed compared with the job security of a couple of decades ago. Change cannot be stopped. It needs to be embraced to avoid sliding into "victim" mode.
[quote][p][bold]My View from the Hill[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Carpe Diem[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.[/p][/quote]I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.[/p][/quote]No, you are quite right. 500 people stood outside the plant will only make local headlines. 500 people walking out the plant getting on a fleet of coaches and getting out in their work gear outside Parliament or Downing St holding up signs saying 'Save our jobs' 'we want work'. 'Save British Industry' etc will get National Coverage, publicise our struggle and make things embarressing for the Government and Ford. Nothing we can do will hasten the demise of the Plant. That has obviously been decided and they will stick to their timetable.[/p][/quote]I fear even that stance will be too little too late, I really think it's a done deal, in time everything will go to Turkey, all of the area's MP's (especially John Denham) need to lobby the Government to impose import taxes. Why should our workforce lose their jobs, some may lose their homes, surely as secretary of state of for communities John Denham can see that a working community is far better than an unemployed community, but I fear he will use the excuse that if he lobbies his colleagues in the cabinet for jobs for Southampton workers, it will seen as favouritism and a conflict of interest, just like he did with collages fiasco.[/p][/quote]What is the point berating John Denham? He has no influence and is a small-time, invisible, bit player in terms of global employment markets. He is insignificant. He cannot do anything to protect jobs. Neither can any other British politician of any party. The hard reality for British manufacturing workers is that multi-national companies have massively shifted their manufacturing sites to Third World or Second World countries where labour costs are 10% of those in First World countries. This may be lamentable but is unstoppable. It may feel like a moral issue but in truth it is a cold, hard business issue that brings with it the casualties of jobless working people and devastation to them and their families. The rapid pace/expansion of Globalisation of manufacturing will even speed up when "green" manufacturing jobs, for new "green" products are created. Most of the new jobs will not be created in First World countries. What is the answer for British manufacturing workers and all other First World manufacturing workers? An enlightened government with the vision and the will to retrain those workers into non-manufacturing jobs. The problem with that, is that those First World country governments are totally strapped for cash - the recession busted their public coffers and they are in debt up to their eyeballs with that debt likely hanging around for the next 20 years. Sadly, manufacturing workers are stuck between a rock and a hard place, witnessing the inevitable loss of their jobs and no easy replacement job on the horizon. I'm not a supporter of Capitalism. Neither am I a supporter of Socialism. But I am a realist and people who bang on about cheap labour overseas and an ineffective British government need to stand back and take in the wider, bigger picture . . . The World is changing at warp factor 8 speed compared with the job security of a couple of decades ago. Change cannot be stopped. It needs to be embraced to avoid sliding into "victim" mode. clausentum
  • Score: 0

3:56pm Thu 10 Dec 09

Militant Ford Worker says...

Carpe Diem wrote:
Import taxes on goods imported from Turkey will not save British jobs. If the goods from Turkey are too expensive buyers will look for the next available cheap option - Mercedes, Peugeot, Vauxhall (Opel). Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no British offering in the van market now that LDV has gone. Everybody had the chance to protect British jobs by buying an LDV vehicle but chose not to.
Yes thats the whole point which you appear to have missed.
If Ford vehicles built in Turkey become too expensive due to import Taxes, buyers will ineed choose another makers vehicle that is cheaper - as you have said.
It is this threat posed by import taxes to Fords market share that is intended to force them to keep production in the UK.
That is how protectionism works. This is how our manufacturing jobs were protected up until 2000 and the signing of the EU/Turkey Customs which swept our protectionist trade barriers away.
Similar EU Free trade deals exist with China, Indonesia etc which opened door for these countries to poach our industries.
You are, of course wrong to say no other Vans are built in Britain apart from the Transit. The Vauxhall Vivaro, Nissan Primastar and Renault Traffic are all built in Luton.
[quote][p][bold]Carpe Diem[/bold] wrote: Import taxes on goods imported from Turkey will not save British jobs. If the goods from Turkey are too expensive buyers will look for the next available cheap option - Mercedes, Peugeot, Vauxhall (Opel). Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no British offering in the van market now that LDV has gone. Everybody had the chance to protect British jobs by buying an LDV vehicle but chose not to.[/p][/quote]Yes thats the whole point which you appear to have missed. If Ford vehicles built in Turkey become too expensive due to import Taxes, buyers will ineed choose another makers vehicle that is cheaper - as you have said. It is this threat posed by import taxes to Fords market share that is intended to force them to keep production in the UK. That is how protectionism works. This is how our manufacturing jobs were protected up until 2000 and the signing of the EU/Turkey Customs which swept our protectionist trade barriers away. Similar EU Free trade deals exist with China, Indonesia etc which opened door for these countries to poach our industries. You are, of course wrong to say no other Vans are built in Britain apart from the Transit. The Vauxhall Vivaro, Nissan Primastar and Renault Traffic are all built in Luton. Militant Ford Worker
  • Score: 0

5:25pm Thu 10 Dec 09

Mexeman says...

Time for someone to call MandyMan!
Time for someone to call MandyMan! Mexeman
  • Score: 0

6:35pm Thu 10 Dec 09

Militant Ford Worker says...

clausentum wrote:
My View from the Hill wrote:
Militant Ford Worker wrote:
Carpe Diem wrote:
Militant Ford Worker wrote:
Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.
I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.
No, you are quite right. 500 people stood outside the plant will only make local headlines. 500 people walking out the plant getting on a fleet of coaches and getting out in their work gear outside Parliament or Downing St holding up signs saying 'Save our jobs' 'we want work'. 'Save British Industry' etc will get National Coverage, publicise our struggle and make things embarressing for the Government and Ford.
Nothing we can do will hasten the demise of the Plant. That has obviously been decided and they will stick to their timetable.
I fear even that stance will be too little too late, I really think it's a done deal, in time everything will go to Turkey, all of the area's MP's (especially John Denham) need to lobby the Government to impose import taxes.

Why should our workforce lose their jobs, some may lose their homes, surely as secretary of state of for communities John Denham can see that a working community is far better than an unemployed community, but I fear he will use the excuse that if he lobbies his colleagues in the cabinet for jobs for Southampton workers, it will seen as favouritism and a conflict of interest, just like he did with collages fiasco.
What is the point berating John Denham? He has no influence and is a small-time, invisible, bit player in terms of global employment markets. He is insignificant. He cannot do anything to protect jobs. Neither can any other British politician of any party.

The hard reality for British manufacturing workers is that multi-national companies have massively shifted their manufacturing sites to Third World or Second World countries where labour costs are 10% of those in First World countries.

This may be lamentable but is unstoppable. It may feel like a moral issue but in truth it is a cold, hard business issue that brings with it the casualties of jobless working people and devastation to them and their families.

The rapid pace/expansion of Globalisation of manufacturing will even speed up when "green" manufacturing jobs, for new "green" products are created. Most of the new jobs will not be created in First World countries.

What is the answer for British manufacturing workers and all other First World manufacturing workers?

An enlightened government with the vision and the will to retrain those workers into non-manufacturing jobs.

The problem with that, is that those First World country governments are totally strapped for cash - the recession busted their public coffers and they are in debt up to their eyeballs with that debt likely hanging around for the next 20 years.

Sadly, manufacturing workers are stuck between a rock and a hard place, witnessing the inevitable loss of their jobs and no easy replacement job on the horizon.

I'm not a supporter of Capitalism. Neither am I a supporter of Socialism. But I am a realist and people who bang on about cheap labour overseas and an ineffective British government need to stand back and take in the wider, bigger picture . . . The World is changing at warp factor 8 speed compared with the job security of a couple of decades ago. Change cannot be stopped. It needs to be embraced to avoid sliding into "victim" mode.
I find it ridiculous that you should suggest that unfettered global free trade is only viable business model and an inevitability and something to be 'embraced'.
They certainly aren't embracing it in the US where Obama has just bowed to pressure from the United Steelworkers Union (Affilated to our own Unite union, take note) and agreed to impose a 35% import duty on Chinese made tyres to protect jobs in the American car tyre industry and quite right too.
If Obama can stand up to China then surely the UK can afford to upset the Turks a little bit?
America grew and prospered under a policy of blanket protectionism and began it's decline when it was abandoned.
As for Turkey they are all in favour of Fee trade as long as it suits them.
No Duty on UK bound Transits -thats ok.
However & contrary to agreement, they continue to impose a 300% tariff on our Scotch Whiskey exports to protect their own distillers.
When Ford announced they were moving production of the little connect from Turkey to Romania, Fords Turkish partners refused to release the Tooling! They only agreed to let the Connect go after Ford confirmed they would be getting Southampton's work as compensation.
Your 'there is no alternative' support of Free Trade is merely echoing the official EU, Labour Party Line.
Yet during the 1984 General Election the Labour Party were opposed to it!
All of them ...Denham, Kinnock, Mandy, Brown, Straw they were all advocating Import Duty to protect British Industry, Controlled Immigration, Withdrawal from the EU and Re-nationalisation of our key strategic Industries!!
How could they have lost??
(see Foot vs The Sun).
Now they are in favour of open borders and unfettered access to British Markets.
Free trade is all about the Freedom of Bosses to exploit workers and evade taxes.
Manufacturers based abroad do not have to pay the taxes UK based manufacturers have to pay...therefore the Tax burden is higher here then it could be if import taxes were applied.
The Chanceller is looking for extra revenue..how about 35 % on all Turkish built transits?
[quote][p][bold]clausentum[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]My View from the Hill[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Carpe Diem[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.[/p][/quote]I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.[/p][/quote]No, you are quite right. 500 people stood outside the plant will only make local headlines. 500 people walking out the plant getting on a fleet of coaches and getting out in their work gear outside Parliament or Downing St holding up signs saying 'Save our jobs' 'we want work'. 'Save British Industry' etc will get National Coverage, publicise our struggle and make things embarressing for the Government and Ford. Nothing we can do will hasten the demise of the Plant. That has obviously been decided and they will stick to their timetable.[/p][/quote]I fear even that stance will be too little too late, I really think it's a done deal, in time everything will go to Turkey, all of the area's MP's (especially John Denham) need to lobby the Government to impose import taxes. Why should our workforce lose their jobs, some may lose their homes, surely as secretary of state of for communities John Denham can see that a working community is far better than an unemployed community, but I fear he will use the excuse that if he lobbies his colleagues in the cabinet for jobs for Southampton workers, it will seen as favouritism and a conflict of interest, just like he did with collages fiasco.[/p][/quote]What is the point berating John Denham? He has no influence and is a small-time, invisible, bit player in terms of global employment markets. He is insignificant. He cannot do anything to protect jobs. Neither can any other British politician of any party. The hard reality for British manufacturing workers is that multi-national companies have massively shifted their manufacturing sites to Third World or Second World countries where labour costs are 10% of those in First World countries. This may be lamentable but is unstoppable. It may feel like a moral issue but in truth it is a cold, hard business issue that brings with it the casualties of jobless working people and devastation to them and their families. The rapid pace/expansion of Globalisation of manufacturing will even speed up when "green" manufacturing jobs, for new "green" products are created. Most of the new jobs will not be created in First World countries. What is the answer for British manufacturing workers and all other First World manufacturing workers? An enlightened government with the vision and the will to retrain those workers into non-manufacturing jobs. The problem with that, is that those First World country governments are totally strapped for cash - the recession busted their public coffers and they are in debt up to their eyeballs with that debt likely hanging around for the next 20 years. Sadly, manufacturing workers are stuck between a rock and a hard place, witnessing the inevitable loss of their jobs and no easy replacement job on the horizon. I'm not a supporter of Capitalism. Neither am I a supporter of Socialism. But I am a realist and people who bang on about cheap labour overseas and an ineffective British government need to stand back and take in the wider, bigger picture . . . The World is changing at warp factor 8 speed compared with the job security of a couple of decades ago. Change cannot be stopped. It needs to be embraced to avoid sliding into "victim" mode.[/p][/quote]I find it ridiculous that you should suggest that unfettered global free trade is only viable business model and an inevitability and something to be 'embraced'. They certainly aren't embracing it in the US where Obama has just bowed to pressure from the United Steelworkers Union (Affilated to our own Unite union, take note) and agreed to impose a 35% import duty on Chinese made tyres to protect jobs in the American car tyre industry and quite right too. If Obama can stand up to China then surely the UK can afford to upset the Turks a little bit? America grew and prospered under a policy of blanket protectionism and began it's decline when it was abandoned. As for Turkey they are all in favour of Fee trade as long as it suits them. No Duty on UK bound Transits -thats ok. However & contrary to agreement, they continue to impose a 300% tariff on our Scotch Whiskey exports to protect their own distillers. When Ford announced they were moving production of the little connect from Turkey to Romania, Fords Turkish partners refused to release the Tooling! They only agreed to let the Connect go after Ford confirmed they would be getting Southampton's work as compensation. Your 'there is no alternative' support of Free Trade is merely echoing the official EU, Labour Party Line. Yet during the 1984 General Election the Labour Party were opposed to it! All of them ...Denham, Kinnock, Mandy, Brown, Straw they were all advocating Import Duty to protect British Industry, Controlled Immigration, Withdrawal from the EU and Re-nationalisation of our key strategic Industries!! How could they have lost?? (see Foot vs The Sun). Now they are in favour of open borders and unfettered access to British Markets. Free trade is all about the Freedom of Bosses to exploit workers and evade taxes. Manufacturers based abroad do not have to pay the taxes UK based manufacturers have to pay...therefore the Tax burden is higher here then it could be if import taxes were applied. The Chanceller is looking for extra revenue..how about 35 % on all Turkish built transits? Militant Ford Worker
  • Score: 0

1:46am Fri 11 Dec 09

clausentum says...

Militant Ford Worker wrote:
clausentum wrote:
My View from the Hill wrote:
Militant Ford Worker wrote:
Carpe Diem wrote:
Militant Ford Worker wrote:
Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.
I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.
No, you are quite right. 500 people stood outside the plant will only make local headlines. 500 people walking out the plant getting on a fleet of coaches and getting out in their work gear outside Parliament or Downing St holding up signs saying 'Save our jobs' 'we want work'. 'Save British Industry' etc will get National Coverage, publicise our struggle and make things embarressing for the Government and Ford.
Nothing we can do will hasten the demise of the Plant. That has obviously been decided and they will stick to their timetable.
I fear even that stance will be too little too late, I really think it's a done deal, in time everything will go to Turkey, all of the area's MP's (especially John Denham) need to lobby the Government to impose import taxes.

Why should our workforce lose their jobs, some may lose their homes, surely as secretary of state of for communities John Denham can see that a working community is far better than an unemployed community, but I fear he will use the excuse that if he lobbies his colleagues in the cabinet for jobs for Southampton workers, it will seen as favouritism and a conflict of interest, just like he did with collages fiasco.
What is the point berating John Denham? He has no influence and is a small-time, invisible, bit player in terms of global employment markets. He is insignificant. He cannot do anything to protect jobs. Neither can any other British politician of any party.

The hard reality for British manufacturing workers is that multi-national companies have massively shifted their manufacturing sites to Third World or Second World countries where labour costs are 10% of those in First World countries.

This may be lamentable but is unstoppable. It may feel like a moral issue but in truth it is a cold, hard business issue that brings with it the casualties of jobless working people and devastation to them and their families.

The rapid pace/expansion of Globalisation of manufacturing will even speed up when "green" manufacturing jobs, for new "green" products are created. Most of the new jobs will not be created in First World countries.

What is the answer for British manufacturing workers and all other First World manufacturing workers?

An enlightened government with the vision and the will to retrain those workers into non-manufacturing jobs.

The problem with that, is that those First World country governments are totally strapped for cash - the recession busted their public coffers and they are in debt up to their eyeballs with that debt likely hanging around for the next 20 years.

Sadly, manufacturing workers are stuck between a rock and a hard place, witnessing the inevitable loss of their jobs and no easy replacement job on the horizon.

I'm not a supporter of Capitalism. Neither am I a supporter of Socialism. But I am a realist and people who bang on about cheap labour overseas and an ineffective British government need to stand back and take in the wider, bigger picture . . . The World is changing at warp factor 8 speed compared with the job security of a couple of decades ago. Change cannot be stopped. It needs to be embraced to avoid sliding into "victim" mode.
I find it ridiculous that you should suggest that unfettered global free trade is only viable business model and an inevitability and something to be 'embraced'.
They certainly aren't embracing it in the US where Obama has just bowed to pressure from the United Steelworkers Union (Affilated to our own Unite union, take note) and agreed to impose a 35% import duty on Chinese made tyres to protect jobs in the American car tyre industry and quite right too.
If Obama can stand up to China then surely the UK can afford to upset the Turks a little bit?
America grew and prospered under a policy of blanket protectionism and began it's decline when it was abandoned.
As for Turkey they are all in favour of Fee trade as long as it suits them.
No Duty on UK bound Transits -thats ok.
However & contrary to agreement, they continue to impose a 300% tariff on our Scotch Whiskey exports to protect their own distillers.
When Ford announced they were moving production of the little connect from Turkey to Romania, Fords Turkish partners refused to release the Tooling! They only agreed to let the Connect go after Ford confirmed they would be getting Southampton's work as compensation.
Your 'there is no alternative' support of Free Trade is merely echoing the official EU, Labour Party Line.
Yet during the 1984 General Election the Labour Party were opposed to it!
All of them ...Denham, Kinnock, Mandy, Brown, Straw they were all advocating Import Duty to protect British Industry, Controlled Immigration, Withdrawal from the EU and Re-nationalisation of our key strategic Industries!!
How could they have lost??
(see Foot vs The Sun).
Now they are in favour of open borders and unfettered access to British Markets.
Free trade is all about the Freedom of Bosses to exploit workers and evade taxes.
Manufacturers based abroad do not have to pay the taxes UK based manufacturers have to pay...therefore the Tax burden is higher here then it could be if import taxes were applied.
The Chanceller is looking for extra revenue..how about 35 % on all Turkish built transits?
Your passion for the plight of manufacturing workers is transparently evident and laudable. Your arguments are solid and substantial. Your opinions merit respect.

But you still look at this whole issue from a narrow viewpoint.

One in three of the World's population live in China and India and they have "embraced" consumerism wholeheartedly. Their expectations need to be met or their governments risk strive, potential civil unrest or worse.

( And just wait until African countries get access to technology. In a couple of decades the African continent will burst upon the World stage as an economic player to be reckoned with ).

China and India and smaller Second World or Third World countries are where immediate and future manufacturing jobs will be located, including new 'green" jobs created to manufacture new "green" products.

A seismic shift is taking place in World consumer markets, global economies and global political systems.

The WW2 victors devised a new world order with America, Germany and Japan becoming the power houses of the world's economy. ( Britain has been in decline since 1945 and now is punching above its weight on the World stage ).

The future belongs to the Pacific Rim countries and India. The fortunes and powerbase of the West's First World countries will decline, just as the Romans and the British declined as superpowers.

This is inevitable.

Change is inevitable.

Rather than ignore "change" or deny it or be fearful of it, change has to be "embraced" by adaptation to a differently designed future.

Anything else is luddite.

Hanging onto the past is foolish, short-sighted and a recipe for frustration, heartache and pain and grief.

Why oh why is "change" so often resisted? "Change" can be liberating, positive and exciting . . .
[quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]clausentum[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]My View from the Hill[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Carpe Diem[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Militant Ford Worker[/bold] wrote: Surely there is no surprise here. In the Echo video Steve Adams makes it quite clear that the launch of the new model was delayed by the recession , now plans are back on track. We always knew the plan was for Turkeys Connect vans to go to Romania and for Turkey to take all Southamptons van build in its place, leaving just the Chasis Cab. Now we hear Ford won't even confirm that.....this just a few months after the Turkish plant Boss was in the Turkish Press trumpeting that they have got the lot. Question is..what are you going to do about it? "How can the union fight any plans to take their work abroad ?" asks Carpe Diem..well they can at least try..better to go down fighting - that's the British way. Let's hope the new plant convenor and JWC stewards have a bit more fight in their belly than the last lot. If Turkish built vans were subject to import duties, as was the case prior to 2000, than Ford would not be sending our work there. We need to send a clear message to the Government that they have to protect whats left of British Industry with trading sanctions even if it means defying the EU and taking on global giant Ford. Industrial action is one way of drawing attention to the EU's De-industrialisation of our country.[/p][/quote]I take your point, but what industrial action would you suggest ? 500 people standing on a picket line at Swaythling is not going to move any mountains and will only hasten the demise of the plant.[/p][/quote]No, you are quite right. 500 people stood outside the plant will only make local headlines. 500 people walking out the plant getting on a fleet of coaches and getting out in their work gear outside Parliament or Downing St holding up signs saying 'Save our jobs' 'we want work'. 'Save British Industry' etc will get National Coverage, publicise our struggle and make things embarressing for the Government and Ford. Nothing we can do will hasten the demise of the Plant. That has obviously been decided and they will stick to their timetable.[/p][/quote]I fear even that stance will be too little too late, I really think it's a done deal, in time everything will go to Turkey, all of the area's MP's (especially John Denham) need to lobby the Government to impose import taxes. Why should our workforce lose their jobs, some may lose their homes, surely as secretary of state of for communities John Denham can see that a working community is far better than an unemployed community, but I fear he will use the excuse that if he lobbies his colleagues in the cabinet for jobs for Southampton workers, it will seen as favouritism and a conflict of interest, just like he did with collages fiasco.[/p][/quote]What is the point berating John Denham? He has no influence and is a small-time, invisible, bit player in terms of global employment markets. He is insignificant. He cannot do anything to protect jobs. Neither can any other British politician of any party. The hard reality for British manufacturing workers is that multi-national companies have massively shifted their manufacturing sites to Third World or Second World countries where labour costs are 10% of those in First World countries. This may be lamentable but is unstoppable. It may feel like a moral issue but in truth it is a cold, hard business issue that brings with it the casualties of jobless working people and devastation to them and their families. The rapid pace/expansion of Globalisation of manufacturing will even speed up when "green" manufacturing jobs, for new "green" products are created. Most of the new jobs will not be created in First World countries. What is the answer for British manufacturing workers and all other First World manufacturing workers? An enlightened government with the vision and the will to retrain those workers into non-manufacturing jobs. The problem with that, is that those First World country governments are totally strapped for cash - the recession busted their public coffers and they are in debt up to their eyeballs with that debt likely hanging around for the next 20 years. Sadly, manufacturing workers are stuck between a rock and a hard place, witnessing the inevitable loss of their jobs and no easy replacement job on the horizon. I'm not a supporter of Capitalism. Neither am I a supporter of Socialism. But I am a realist and people who bang on about cheap labour overseas and an ineffective British government need to stand back and take in the wider, bigger picture . . . The World is changing at warp factor 8 speed compared with the job security of a couple of decades ago. Change cannot be stopped. It needs to be embraced to avoid sliding into "victim" mode.[/p][/quote]I find it ridiculous that you should suggest that unfettered global free trade is only viable business model and an inevitability and something to be 'embraced'. They certainly aren't embracing it in the US where Obama has just bowed to pressure from the United Steelworkers Union (Affilated to our own Unite union, take note) and agreed to impose a 35% import duty on Chinese made tyres to protect jobs in the American car tyre industry and quite right too. If Obama can stand up to China then surely the UK can afford to upset the Turks a little bit? America grew and prospered under a policy of blanket protectionism and began it's decline when it was abandoned. As for Turkey they are all in favour of Fee trade as long as it suits them. No Duty on UK bound Transits -thats ok. However & contrary to agreement, they continue to impose a 300% tariff on our Scotch Whiskey exports to protect their own distillers. When Ford announced they were moving production of the little connect from Turkey to Romania, Fords Turkish partners refused to release the Tooling! They only agreed to let the Connect go after Ford confirmed they would be getting Southampton's work as compensation. Your 'there is no alternative' support of Free Trade is merely echoing the official EU, Labour Party Line. Yet during the 1984 General Election the Labour Party were opposed to it! All of them ...Denham, Kinnock, Mandy, Brown, Straw they were all advocating Import Duty to protect British Industry, Controlled Immigration, Withdrawal from the EU and Re-nationalisation of our key strategic Industries!! How could they have lost?? (see Foot vs The Sun). Now they are in favour of open borders and unfettered access to British Markets. Free trade is all about the Freedom of Bosses to exploit workers and evade taxes. Manufacturers based abroad do not have to pay the taxes UK based manufacturers have to pay...therefore the Tax burden is higher here then it could be if import taxes were applied. The Chanceller is looking for extra revenue..how about 35 % on all Turkish built transits?[/p][/quote]Your passion for the plight of manufacturing workers is transparently evident and laudable. Your arguments are solid and substantial. Your opinions merit respect. But you still look at this whole issue from a narrow viewpoint. One in three of the World's population live in China and India and they have "embraced" consumerism wholeheartedly. Their expectations need to be met or their governments risk strive, potential civil unrest or worse. ( And just wait until African countries get access to technology. In a couple of decades the African continent will burst upon the World stage as an economic player to be reckoned with ). China and India and smaller Second World or Third World countries are where immediate and future manufacturing jobs will be located, including new 'green" jobs created to manufacture new "green" products. A seismic shift is taking place in World consumer markets, global economies and global political systems. The WW2 victors devised a new world order with America, Germany and Japan becoming the power houses of the world's economy. ( Britain has been in decline since 1945 and now is punching above its weight on the World stage ). The future belongs to the Pacific Rim countries and India. The fortunes and powerbase of the West's First World countries will decline, just as the Romans and the British declined as superpowers. This is inevitable. Change is inevitable. Rather than ignore "change" or deny it or be fearful of it, change has to be "embraced" by adaptation to a differently designed future. Anything else is luddite. Hanging onto the past is foolish, short-sighted and a recipe for frustration, heartache and pain and grief. Why oh why is "change" so often resisted? "Change" can be liberating, positive and exciting . . . clausentum
  • Score: 0

2:17pm Fri 11 Dec 09

southy says...

quote""Hanging onto the past is foolish, short-sighted and a recipe for frustration, heartache and pain and grief.
Why oh why is "change" so often resisted? "Change" can be liberating, positive and exciting ."" unquote.
your right about hanging on to the pass, the pass is the capitalist world, there is no more room for personal greed those days are very numbered now, and yes the world is changing, its changing to a socialist world. and its only a few hard liners countrys left, but even they are changing slowly to socialism.
there was a few people who said communism and socialism had died with the berlin wall and the collapse of russia, but this was far from the truth, all that was needed was to wait and remind people what it really ment to be a capitalist counrty, and the reminders soon came with the high unemployment, higher crime rate, more homeless, more poverty the gap between rich and poor growing wider, and generally more human suffering. with deeper and longer recession. the next one will not be a recession it will be a full blown depression.
yes there is going to be change, but it will be a socialist change. and not that old system that belongs back in the 1920's and before.
there will be a load off countrys next year that will be having general elections. you only got to look at countrys that had elections this year those that was socialist before return them back, but countrys that was capitalist many had swop to socialism.
and yes china and india are perfect examples but then again they both have socialism policys in place. take a look at all the countrys that did not go into recession and those that came out of the recession early they all have some form of socialism policy in place.and we need to join them before the depression hits us. or else we will never recover from it and will only be a third world country. at the end of the depression.
quote""Hanging onto the past is foolish, short-sighted and a recipe for frustration, heartache and pain and grief. Why oh why is "change" so often resisted? "Change" can be liberating, positive and exciting ."" unquote. your right about hanging on to the pass, the pass is the capitalist world, there is no more room for personal greed those days are very numbered now, and yes the world is changing, its changing to a socialist world. and its only a few hard liners countrys left, but even they are changing slowly to socialism. there was a few people who said communism and socialism had died with the berlin wall and the collapse of russia, but this was far from the truth, all that was needed was to wait and remind people what it really ment to be a capitalist counrty, and the reminders soon came with the high unemployment, higher crime rate, more homeless, more poverty the gap between rich and poor growing wider, and generally more human suffering. with deeper and longer recession. the next one will not be a recession it will be a full blown depression. yes there is going to be change, but it will be a socialist change. and not that old system that belongs back in the 1920's and before. there will be a load off countrys next year that will be having general elections. you only got to look at countrys that had elections this year those that was socialist before return them back, but countrys that was capitalist many had swop to socialism. and yes china and india are perfect examples but then again they both have socialism policys in place. take a look at all the countrys that did not go into recession and those that came out of the recession early they all have some form of socialism policy in place.and we need to join them before the depression hits us. or else we will never recover from it and will only be a third world country. at the end of the depression. southy
  • Score: 0

2:33pm Fri 11 Dec 09

southy says...

p.s. if you take a look at what Roosevelt last public speech it was all about socialism. and what he planned to do, new policy to be implemented big social change, and it was this that was agreed on between the allied and axis countrys, but roosevelt died before it could be implemented. and truman kick the agreement out of the window. from the advice of the big oil and banking companys. if he did't then he would not get any support from them.
p.s. if you take a look at what Roosevelt last public speech it was all about socialism. and what he planned to do, new policy to be implemented big social change, and it was this that was agreed on between the allied and axis countrys, but roosevelt died before it could be implemented. and truman kick the agreement out of the window. from the advice of the big oil and banking companys. if he did't then he would not get any support from them. southy
  • Score: 0

3:32pm Fri 11 Dec 09

clausentum says...

southy wrote:
quote""Hanging onto the past is foolish, short-sighted and a recipe for frustration, heartache and pain and grief.
Why oh why is "change" so often resisted? "Change" can be liberating, positive and exciting ."" unquote.
your right about hanging on to the pass, the pass is the capitalist world, there is no more room for personal greed those days are very numbered now, and yes the world is changing, its changing to a socialist world. and its only a few hard liners countrys left, but even they are changing slowly to socialism.
there was a few people who said communism and socialism had died with the berlin wall and the collapse of russia, but this was far from the truth, all that was needed was to wait and remind people what it really ment to be a capitalist counrty, and the reminders soon came with the high unemployment, higher crime rate, more homeless, more poverty the gap between rich and poor growing wider, and generally more human suffering. with deeper and longer recession. the next one will not be a recession it will be a full blown depression.
yes there is going to be change, but it will be a socialist change. and not that old system that belongs back in the 1920's and before.
there will be a load off countrys next year that will be having general elections. you only got to look at countrys that had elections this year those that was socialist before return them back, but countrys that was capitalist many had swop to socialism.
and yes china and india are perfect examples but then again they both have socialism policys in place. take a look at all the countrys that did not go into recession and those that came out of the recession early they all have some form of socialism policy in place.and we need to join them before the depression hits us. or else we will never recover from it and will only be a third world country. at the end of the depression.
You occupy a grey spot in your Walter Mitty World of dull mediocracy - lurking behind the barricades until the inglorious day when your socialist/communist revolution ignites the World of a brave new tomorrow.

It ain't gonna happen.

The new world order will be created by the realignment of economies and evolving social systems and new alliances and the emergence of new superpowers.

The future economic model design will not look like Capitalism 1.0. Nor will it look like your failed socialism/communist model.

It will look entirely different. Why? Because humankind struggles with change but consistently embraces the future with new ideas, fresh concepts, massive paradigm shifts and invention.

You have two feet firmly planted in the past.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: quote""Hanging onto the past is foolish, short-sighted and a recipe for frustration, heartache and pain and grief. Why oh why is "change" so often resisted? "Change" can be liberating, positive and exciting ."" unquote. your right about hanging on to the pass, the pass is the capitalist world, there is no more room for personal greed those days are very numbered now, and yes the world is changing, its changing to a socialist world. and its only a few hard liners countrys left, but even they are changing slowly to socialism. there was a few people who said communism and socialism had died with the berlin wall and the collapse of russia, but this was far from the truth, all that was needed was to wait and remind people what it really ment to be a capitalist counrty, and the reminders soon came with the high unemployment, higher crime rate, more homeless, more poverty the gap between rich and poor growing wider, and generally more human suffering. with deeper and longer recession. the next one will not be a recession it will be a full blown depression. yes there is going to be change, but it will be a socialist change. and not that old system that belongs back in the 1920's and before. there will be a load off countrys next year that will be having general elections. you only got to look at countrys that had elections this year those that was socialist before return them back, but countrys that was capitalist many had swop to socialism. and yes china and india are perfect examples but then again they both have socialism policys in place. take a look at all the countrys that did not go into recession and those that came out of the recession early they all have some form of socialism policy in place.and we need to join them before the depression hits us. or else we will never recover from it and will only be a third world country. at the end of the depression.[/p][/quote]You occupy a grey spot in your Walter Mitty World of dull mediocracy - lurking behind the barricades until the inglorious day when your socialist/communist revolution ignites the World of a brave new tomorrow. It ain't gonna happen. The new world order will be created by the realignment of economies and evolving social systems and new alliances and the emergence of new superpowers. The future economic model design will not look like Capitalism 1.0. Nor will it look like your failed socialism/communist model. It will look entirely different. Why? Because humankind struggles with change but consistently embraces the future with new ideas, fresh concepts, massive paradigm shifts and invention. You have two feet firmly planted in the past. clausentum
  • Score: 0

9:06pm Fri 11 Dec 09

southy says...

clausentum wrote:
southy wrote:
quote""Hanging onto the past is foolish, short-sighted and a recipe for frustration, heartache and pain and grief.
Why oh why is "change" so often resisted? "Change" can be liberating, positive and exciting ."" unquote.
your right about hanging on to the pass, the pass is the capitalist world, there is no more room for personal greed those days are very numbered now, and yes the world is changing, its changing to a socialist world. and its only a few hard liners countrys left, but even they are changing slowly to socialism.
there was a few people who said communism and socialism had died with the berlin wall and the collapse of russia, but this was far from the truth, all that was needed was to wait and remind people what it really ment to be a capitalist counrty, and the reminders soon came with the high unemployment, higher crime rate, more homeless, more poverty the gap between rich and poor growing wider, and generally more human suffering. with deeper and longer recession. the next one will not be a recession it will be a full blown depression.
yes there is going to be change, but it will be a socialist change. and not that old system that belongs back in the 1920's and before.
there will be a load off countrys next year that will be having general elections. you only got to look at countrys that had elections this year those that was socialist before return them back, but countrys that was capitalist many had swop to socialism.
and yes china and india are perfect examples but then again they both have socialism policys in place. take a look at all the countrys that did not go into recession and those that came out of the recession early they all have some form of socialism policy in place.and we need to join them before the depression hits us. or else we will never recover from it and will only be a third world country. at the end of the depression.
You occupy a grey spot in your Walter Mitty World of dull mediocracy - lurking behind the barricades until the inglorious day when your socialist/communist revolution ignites the World of a brave new tomorrow.

It ain't gonna happen.

The new world order will be created by the realignment of economies and evolving social systems and new alliances and the emergence of new superpowers.

The future economic model design will not look like Capitalism 1.0. Nor will it look like your failed socialism/communist model.

It will look entirely different. Why? Because humankind struggles with change but consistently embraces the future with new ideas, fresh concepts, massive paradigm shifts and invention.

You have two feet firmly planted in the past.
socialism is not the pass but every one future, its only been tired out the once, where the world politics will end up say in 2 to 10 thounsand years will be utopia it will have no choice but to end there, the worlds population and technology will dictate that. but to get there nice and smootly and quitely the world will go though a socialism first its just an evolution of politics, capitalism had its day, it stated to show its cracks when the industral revolution started and every since then it just got worse and it did not matter what type of capitalism policy was in place, they will all just get worse and worse, and if capitalism stays in place to long, then theres only 2 ways it will go. one hell off a major world war where you get total destruction or a bloody revolution. personaly my self i would like the nice quite route.
and if it was that much in the pass. then why are countrys turning to socialism and why did countrys that have socialism policy in place did not go into recession. there are more socialist countrys now than there ever been.
[quote][p][bold]clausentum[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: quote""Hanging onto the past is foolish, short-sighted and a recipe for frustration, heartache and pain and grief. Why oh why is "change" so often resisted? "Change" can be liberating, positive and exciting ."" unquote. your right about hanging on to the pass, the pass is the capitalist world, there is no more room for personal greed those days are very numbered now, and yes the world is changing, its changing to a socialist world. and its only a few hard liners countrys left, but even they are changing slowly to socialism. there was a few people who said communism and socialism had died with the berlin wall and the collapse of russia, but this was far from the truth, all that was needed was to wait and remind people what it really ment to be a capitalist counrty, and the reminders soon came with the high unemployment, higher crime rate, more homeless, more poverty the gap between rich and poor growing wider, and generally more human suffering. with deeper and longer recession. the next one will not be a recession it will be a full blown depression. yes there is going to be change, but it will be a socialist change. and not that old system that belongs back in the 1920's and before. there will be a load off countrys next year that will be having general elections. you only got to look at countrys that had elections this year those that was socialist before return them back, but countrys that was capitalist many had swop to socialism. and yes china and india are perfect examples but then again they both have socialism policys in place. take a look at all the countrys that did not go into recession and those that came out of the recession early they all have some form of socialism policy in place.and we need to join them before the depression hits us. or else we will never recover from it and will only be a third world country. at the end of the depression.[/p][/quote]You occupy a grey spot in your Walter Mitty World of dull mediocracy - lurking behind the barricades until the inglorious day when your socialist/communist revolution ignites the World of a brave new tomorrow. It ain't gonna happen. The new world order will be created by the realignment of economies and evolving social systems and new alliances and the emergence of new superpowers. The future economic model design will not look like Capitalism 1.0. Nor will it look like your failed socialism/communist model. It will look entirely different. Why? Because humankind struggles with change but consistently embraces the future with new ideas, fresh concepts, massive paradigm shifts and invention. You have two feet firmly planted in the past.[/p][/quote]socialism is not the pass but every one future, its only been tired out the once, where the world politics will end up say in 2 to 10 thounsand years will be utopia it will have no choice but to end there, the worlds population and technology will dictate that. but to get there nice and smootly and quitely the world will go though a socialism first its just an evolution of politics, capitalism had its day, it stated to show its cracks when the industral revolution started and every since then it just got worse and it did not matter what type of capitalism policy was in place, they will all just get worse and worse, and if capitalism stays in place to long, then theres only 2 ways it will go. one hell off a major world war where you get total destruction or a bloody revolution. personaly my self i would like the nice quite route. and if it was that much in the pass. then why are countrys turning to socialism and why did countrys that have socialism policy in place did not go into recession. there are more socialist countrys now than there ever been. southy
  • Score: 0

10:23pm Fri 11 Dec 09

clausentum says...

southy wrote:
clausentum wrote:
southy wrote:
quote""Hanging onto the past is foolish, short-sighted and a recipe for frustration, heartache and pain and grief.
Why oh why is "change" so often resisted? "Change" can be liberating, positive and exciting ."" unquote.
your right about hanging on to the pass, the pass is the capitalist world, there is no more room for personal greed those days are very numbered now, and yes the world is changing, its changing to a socialist world. and its only a few hard liners countrys left, but even they are changing slowly to socialism.
there was a few people who said communism and socialism had died with the berlin wall and the collapse of russia, but this was far from the truth, all that was needed was to wait and remind people what it really ment to be a capitalist counrty, and the reminders soon came with the high unemployment, higher crime rate, more homeless, more poverty the gap between rich and poor growing wider, and generally more human suffering. with deeper and longer recession. the next one will not be a recession it will be a full blown depression.
yes there is going to be change, but it will be a socialist change. and not that old system that belongs back in the 1920's and before.
there will be a load off countrys next year that will be having general elections. you only got to look at countrys that had elections this year those that was socialist before return them back, but countrys that was capitalist many had swop to socialism.
and yes china and india are perfect examples but then again they both have socialism policys in place. take a look at all the countrys that did not go into recession and those that came out of the recession early they all have some form of socialism policy in place.and we need to join them before the depression hits us. or else we will never recover from it and will only be a third world country. at the end of the depression.
You occupy a grey spot in your Walter Mitty World of dull mediocracy - lurking behind the barricades until the inglorious day when your socialist/communist revolution ignites the World of a brave new tomorrow.

It ain't gonna happen.

The new world order will be created by the realignment of economies and evolving social systems and new alliances and the emergence of new superpowers.

The future economic model design will not look like Capitalism 1.0. Nor will it look like your failed socialism/communist model.

It will look entirely different. Why? Because humankind struggles with change but consistently embraces the future with new ideas, fresh concepts, massive paradigm shifts and invention.

You have two feet firmly planted in the past.
socialism is not the pass but every one future, its only been tired out the once, where the world politics will end up say in 2 to 10 thounsand years will be utopia it will have no choice but to end there, the worlds population and technology will dictate that. but to get there nice and smootly and quitely the world will go though a socialism first its just an evolution of politics, capitalism had its day, it stated to show its cracks when the industral revolution started and every since then it just got worse and it did not matter what type of capitalism policy was in place, they will all just get worse and worse, and if capitalism stays in place to long, then theres only 2 ways it will go. one hell off a major world war where you get total destruction or a bloody revolution. personaly my self i would like the nice quite route.
and if it was that much in the pass. then why are countrys turning to socialism and why did countrys that have socialism policy in place did not go into recession. there are more socialist countrys now than there ever been.
Humbug, Mr Closet Revolutionary with his head up his ars@.

Dream on . . . . .

( But. 'Tis the season of goodwill and charitable thoughts to all, so go ahead and have the Last Word on me. )

:-)


.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]clausentum[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: quote""Hanging onto the past is foolish, short-sighted and a recipe for frustration, heartache and pain and grief. Why oh why is "change" so often resisted? "Change" can be liberating, positive and exciting ."" unquote. your right about hanging on to the pass, the pass is the capitalist world, there is no more room for personal greed those days are very numbered now, and yes the world is changing, its changing to a socialist world. and its only a few hard liners countrys left, but even they are changing slowly to socialism. there was a few people who said communism and socialism had died with the berlin wall and the collapse of russia, but this was far from the truth, all that was needed was to wait and remind people what it really ment to be a capitalist counrty, and the reminders soon came with the high unemployment, higher crime rate, more homeless, more poverty the gap between rich and poor growing wider, and generally more human suffering. with deeper and longer recession. the next one will not be a recession it will be a full blown depression. yes there is going to be change, but it will be a socialist change. and not that old system that belongs back in the 1920's and before. there will be a load off countrys next year that will be having general elections. you only got to look at countrys that had elections this year those that was socialist before return them back, but countrys that was capitalist many had swop to socialism. and yes china and india are perfect examples but then again they both have socialism policys in place. take a look at all the countrys that did not go into recession and those that came out of the recession early they all have some form of socialism policy in place.and we need to join them before the depression hits us. or else we will never recover from it and will only be a third world country. at the end of the depression.[/p][/quote]You occupy a grey spot in your Walter Mitty World of dull mediocracy - lurking behind the barricades until the inglorious day when your socialist/communist revolution ignites the World of a brave new tomorrow. It ain't gonna happen. The new world order will be created by the realignment of economies and evolving social systems and new alliances and the emergence of new superpowers. The future economic model design will not look like Capitalism 1.0. Nor will it look like your failed socialism/communist model. It will look entirely different. Why? Because humankind struggles with change but consistently embraces the future with new ideas, fresh concepts, massive paradigm shifts and invention. You have two feet firmly planted in the past.[/p][/quote]socialism is not the pass but every one future, its only been tired out the once, where the world politics will end up say in 2 to 10 thounsand years will be utopia it will have no choice but to end there, the worlds population and technology will dictate that. but to get there nice and smootly and quitely the world will go though a socialism first its just an evolution of politics, capitalism had its day, it stated to show its cracks when the industral revolution started and every since then it just got worse and it did not matter what type of capitalism policy was in place, they will all just get worse and worse, and if capitalism stays in place to long, then theres only 2 ways it will go. one hell off a major world war where you get total destruction or a bloody revolution. personaly my self i would like the nice quite route. and if it was that much in the pass. then why are countrys turning to socialism and why did countrys that have socialism policy in place did not go into recession. there are more socialist countrys now than there ever been.[/p][/quote]Humbug, Mr Closet Revolutionary with his head up his ars@. Dream on . . . . . ( But. 'Tis the season of goodwill and charitable thoughts to all, so go ahead and have the Last Word on me. ) :-) . clausentum
  • Score: 0

10:48pm Fri 11 Dec 09

southy says...

well if you do your research and do your counting right, you will see there are more socialist countrys now than there ever have been. the next country to go socialist will be burma, that guy dont have the usa backing any more, and there will be an election in early in the year before may. the ruling right wing dictatorship knows he is a goner now, because when bush was president he back this guy up to the hilt to keep him in power and that ment not handing over power to the socialist in the last 5 election that they lost to the socialist. he will not have a choice another reason is to, is that the commonwealth will enforce the change off power to the winning party. has with the uk i think a few more elections will go by before a socialist thinking type party will gain the majority in government.
well if you do your research and do your counting right, you will see there are more socialist countrys now than there ever have been. the next country to go socialist will be burma, that guy dont have the usa backing any more, and there will be an election in early in the year before may. the ruling right wing dictatorship knows he is a goner now, because when bush was president he back this guy up to the hilt to keep him in power and that ment not handing over power to the socialist in the last 5 election that they lost to the socialist. he will not have a choice another reason is to, is that the commonwealth will enforce the change off power to the winning party. has with the uk i think a few more elections will go by before a socialist thinking type party will gain the majority in government. southy
  • Score: 0

3:31am Sat 12 Dec 09

Shiteupon says...

Downsizing !
As a redundant employee from the Ford Enfield Plant (Visteon from 2000?) I, and many others, have been victims of this.
I urge you to continue your campaign and request strong support from the Unions - Unite may need a push!
There has been, is a slow, methodical wind down of UK Ford production?

See VPAG website?
Downsizing ! As a redundant employee from the Ford Enfield Plant (Visteon from 2000?) I, and many others, have been victims of this. I urge you to continue your campaign and request strong support from the Unions - Unite may need a push! There has been, is a slow, methodical wind down of UK Ford production? See VPAG website? Shiteupon
  • Score: 0

3:53am Sat 12 Dec 09

clausentum says...

Shiteupon wrote:
Downsizing !
As a redundant employee from the Ford Enfield Plant (Visteon from 2000?) I, and many others, have been victims of this.
I urge you to continue your campaign and request strong support from the Unions - Unite may need a push!
There has been, is a slow, methodical wind down of UK Ford production?

See VPAG website?
I have been made redundant in the past. Found it a shock and a kick in the stomach. It also was scary, not having the means to pay my way until I got myself another job. Even then, the sense of betrayal remained a long while and the accompanying sense of insecurity, too.

But, if you think Fords can be stopped from shifting the jobs overseas then you are sadly self-deluded and really pis@ing in the wind ( of change ) . . .
[quote][p][bold]Shiteupon[/bold] wrote: Downsizing ! As a redundant employee from the Ford Enfield Plant (Visteon from 2000?) I, and many others, have been victims of this. I urge you to continue your campaign and request strong support from the Unions - Unite may need a push! There has been, is a slow, methodical wind down of UK Ford production? See VPAG website?[/p][/quote]I have been made redundant in the past. Found it a shock and a kick in the stomach. It also was scary, not having the means to pay my way until I got myself another job. Even then, the sense of betrayal remained a long while and the accompanying sense of insecurity, too. But, if you think Fords can be stopped from shifting the jobs overseas then you are sadly self-deluded and really pis@ing in the wind ( of change ) . . . clausentum
  • Score: 0

6:39pm Sat 12 Dec 09

Jnev785 says...

So in the middle of a global recession Ford won't give guarantees and workers are expected to "produce high quality vehicles to ensure its survival" – what a shocker. Welcome to the real world.
So in the middle of a global recession Ford won't give guarantees and workers are expected to "produce high quality vehicles to ensure its survival" – what a shocker. Welcome to the real world. Jnev785
  • Score: 0

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