Kilmartin unveil blueprint for Southampton's Royal Pier and Mayflower Park

The £325 marine basin plan for city

The £325 marine basin plan for city

First published in Royal Pier & Casino Daily Echo: Photograph of the Author by , Feature Writer

A £325M vision to transform Southampton’s waterfront into a world class “marine basin” with a giant promenade has been unveiled.

Developers yesterday revealed plans for a development that would reshape and dramatically increase the size of the Royal Pier district.

The latest scheme would see the derelict pier demolished – at a cost of £3m – and in its place a new promenade would stretch from Mayflower Park across the water to Town Quay.

But last night those behind the scheme were warned that the people of Southampton must not be left with any more “broken promises” over plans for the waterfront.

Taking inspiration from Sydney and Cape Town, the site would become a circular basin with sweeping views of Southampton Water.


Interactive map of the waterfront development plan

To create much-needed space, Red Funnel’s ferry terminal would be relocated to either the end of Mayflower Park, adjacent to berth 101, or to the Town Quay marina.

The latest ideas were yesterday put forward by Scottish developers Kilmartin, who are one year into an 18-month exclusivity agreement with the council.

However, many specific details were still lacking from a briefing for business bosses and even Southampton City Council leaders admit that construction would not begin for at least two years.

The boss of the PSP Southampton Boat Show said that redevelopment of the waterfront was vital for its future.

Shops, restaurants, hotels and offices make up the bulk of the new proposal, but a major tourist drawcard – such as an arena, heritage attraction or casino – has been made a priority.

Kuti’s Royal Thai Pier restaurant would remain untouched, as would Mayflower Park.

Colin Banyard, the Kilmartin chairman, said that the Royal Pier scheme was the most complex he had worked on.

“We believe that this site has the potential to provide a world class waterfront venue akin to Darling Harbour in Sydney or the Victoria and Albert Docks in Cape Town,” he said.

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“In many of these examples we have this same mix of an active port, busy ferry services and yet the mix provides an exciting and vibrant waterfront that is a main attraction in these cities.”

Central to the new plan is the need to accommodate the boat show, which pumps about £11m into the economy each year.

Mr Banyard said that additional space would be created to allow more exhibitors on both the water and land.

The relocation of the Red Funnel marshalling yard would free up space, while permanent marina facilities – as well the boat show’s own temporary marina – would allow the likes of Sunseeker to show off more of its floating fleet.

Andrew Williams, chief executive of National Boat Shows, said: “The redevelopment will give us the space, location, access and facilities to make us the best show in the world again. If the development does not happen then we will keep going backwards.”

Councillor Royston Smith, Cabinet member for economic development, said that the council was under no obligation to take Kilmartin’s proposal forward.

He said that the site would be marketed to developers in February and he was hopeful of appointing a firm by the end of the year. Planning approval would probably take another 12 months, by which time it is hoped the economic slump will have lifted.

“This is a once in a lifetime opportunity.

If we do not get this one right we will have failed,” Cllr Smith said.

“I would rather see it take ten years rather than it being a second-rate development in this location.”

Previous plans to redevelop Royal Pier were scrapped two years ago because of the £20m cost of land reclamation to increase the size of Mayflower Park.

Mr Banyard said that land reclamation would most likely still be needed, but only at the northern end of the park at a cost of about £12m.

Heavy-bearing piers and bridges would connect the extended park with Town Quay, which Mr Banyard said would also be given a new lease of life. He said: “We strongly believe that any reclamation or pier structure needs to connect to Town Quay to revive its fortunes.”

Another reason the waterfront has laid dormant for so long is ABP’s objection to high-rise apartment blocks being so close to its port operations – a stance port director Doug Morrison reiterated.

“ABP desperately wants to see a world class front here, but we will not allow any residential in this area,” he said.

In 2007 a proposal for at least 1,000 flats rising on the pier and a vast swathe of reclaimed land failed.

Mr Banyard – whose proposal will go out to public consultation in the new year – said that any new homes would be built to the north of the site, close to the De Vere and Holiday Inn hotels.

How will it be paid for?

EXACTLY how the new waterfront and Red Funnel relocation would be paid for remains unclear. Last night the ferry company was unavailable for comment, but it is understood that it would not be expected to pay for its move.

Colin Banyard, chairman of developers Kilmartin, said that the sale and lease of space for offices, shops, hotels and restaurants would generate “significant income”, but that there would need to be other development to cover any shortfall.

As previously reported by the Echo, this could include a large casino or 10,000-seat indoor arena, but where either of these huge buildings would be located remains a mystery.

Mr Banyard also revealed that almost every hotel operator in the UK had expressed an interested in building on the site.

But last night the council was issued with a stark warning over the proposals.

Liberal Democrat city councillor John Slade said: “Any investment in the city is good, but we don’t want to end up with more empty promises.

“All too often we see schemes which are put on the table and then they don’t materialise any further.”

Comments (49)

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11:03am Wed 16 Sep 09

mr tein says...

So the only decent waterfront park we have will be destroyed so we can have a few more shosps and restaurants.

This city has no idea.
So the only decent waterfront park we have will be destroyed so we can have a few more shosps and restaurants. This city has no idea. mr tein
  • Score: 0

11:08am Wed 16 Sep 09

jammyswine says...

mr tein wrote:
So the only decent waterfront park we have will be destroyed so we can have a few more shosps and restaurants. This city has no idea.
I was at the meeting and I'm afraid you are wrong. Although, as the story says, it is too early for detailed plans, the vision is for a waterfront area that is accessible and envied by similar ports around the world. I am not connected to the development, nor am I Southampton born & bred but I did think the ideas that are being put forward are exciting for the city.
[quote][p][bold]mr tein[/bold] wrote: So the only decent waterfront park we have will be destroyed so we can have a few more shosps and restaurants. This city has no idea.[/p][/quote]I was at the meeting and I'm afraid you are wrong. Although, as the story says, it is too early for detailed plans, the vision is for a waterfront area that is accessible and envied by similar ports around the world. I am not connected to the development, nor am I Southampton born & bred but I did think the ideas that are being put forward are exciting for the city. jammyswine
  • Score: 0

11:10am Wed 16 Sep 09

jammyswine says...

Also, I am a regular user of the park as I like to walk there and watch the ships etc. What is being suggested will improve the experience and hopefuly make visitors want to stay in the city and not go for example to Gunwharf Quays or Poole waterfronts. This is one of the few ideas in recent years that I agree with from the City.
Also, I am a regular user of the park as I like to walk there and watch the ships etc. What is being suggested will improve the experience and hopefuly make visitors want to stay in the city and not go for example to Gunwharf Quays or Poole waterfronts. This is one of the few ideas in recent years that I agree with from the City. jammyswine
  • Score: 0

11:34am Wed 16 Sep 09

Duncan Disorderly says...

It could be much better than the tattered remnants which are there now. A waterfront promenade would be excellent, and as long as they preserve a good proportion of the current Mayflower Park as a green space it could be the making of Southampton's waterfront.
It could be much better than the tattered remnants which are there now. A waterfront promenade would be excellent, and as long as they preserve a good proportion of the current Mayflower Park as a green space it could be the making of Southampton's waterfront. Duncan Disorderly
  • Score: 0

11:50am Wed 16 Sep 09

James May For PM says...

Here we go again, it wont happen, we dont need more shops & offices we need affordable housing and sustainable businesses. Wheres the money going to come from?.
Here we go again, it wont happen, we dont need more shops & offices we need affordable housing and sustainable businesses. Wheres the money going to come from?. James May For PM
  • Score: 0

11:53am Wed 16 Sep 09

southy says...

the idea is to block off the local river users to mayflower park, because one of the conditions is that local river users can land on the park wall 24/7, and can not be charge a fee, make no mistakes over this, if this go's ahead, there be no hope of the pier ever being rebuilt for public use, and what you will end up with is a private marina from eastern docks to western docks, people in the city have all ready lost the public hard, that use to be in between eastern docks to the town quay, that is now a private marina, there a public slip way there still, but every time you want to use it to launch a boat, it breaks out into an argument, the idea is to put people of from using it, so in the future years to come, they can turn round and close it down under the excuse that the public dont use it. and the same thing will happen to the park, they will slowly start pressuring the public to put them off, then later in year close it of to the public, and all you will end up with is a play ground for the rich.
and before any one makes a comment take a long hard think about it, and whats been happening in southampton over the last 15 plus years, some of the ideas that is been put forward, example a echo report on large private ships at 49 berth in the docks. and other things
the idea is to block off the local river users to mayflower park, because one of the conditions is that local river users can land on the park wall 24/7, and can not be charge a fee, make no mistakes over this, if this go's ahead, there be no hope of the pier ever being rebuilt for public use, and what you will end up with is a private marina from eastern docks to western docks, people in the city have all ready lost the public hard, that use to be in between eastern docks to the town quay, that is now a private marina, there a public slip way there still, but every time you want to use it to launch a boat, it breaks out into an argument, the idea is to put people of from using it, so in the future years to come, they can turn round and close it down under the excuse that the public dont use it. and the same thing will happen to the park, they will slowly start pressuring the public to put them off, then later in year close it of to the public, and all you will end up with is a play ground for the rich. and before any one makes a comment take a long hard think about it, and whats been happening in southampton over the last 15 plus years, some of the ideas that is been put forward, example a echo report on large private ships at 49 berth in the docks. and other things southy
  • Score: 0

11:55am Wed 16 Sep 09

MaxxieO says...

Wot, no flats?

This seems like a good idea...but I'll believe it when I see it!
Wot, no flats? This seems like a good idea...but I'll believe it when I see it! MaxxieO
  • Score: 0

11:59am Wed 16 Sep 09

Zeo says...

Hmmm why is The Royal Pier railway station put on the map for, that was ripped up back in 1921. So I take it no railway line will be relaid then could easily be done, but if only, if only.
Hmmm why is The Royal Pier railway station put on the map for, that was ripped up back in 1921. So I take it no railway line will be relaid then could easily be done, but if only, if only. Zeo
  • Score: 0

12:02pm Wed 16 Sep 09

News Fanatic says...

With so many shops and offices empty in the city, what is the point of building even more? East Street and Bargate Shopping Centres are almost deserted; the Marlands has empty shops, particulary on the first floor and some of the shops that closed when WestQuay opened are still empty (eg Dixons).
This sounds to me like yet another pipe-dream.
With so many shops and offices empty in the city, what is the point of building even more? East Street and Bargate Shopping Centres are almost deserted; the Marlands has empty shops, particulary on the first floor and some of the shops that closed when WestQuay opened are still empty (eg Dixons). This sounds to me like yet another pipe-dream. News Fanatic
  • Score: 0

12:08pm Wed 16 Sep 09

Sulaiman Al Fahim says...

News Fanatic wrote:
With so many shops and offices empty in the city, what is the point of building even more? East Street and Bargate Shopping Centres are almost deserted; the Marlands has empty shops, particulary on the first floor and some of the shops that closed when WestQuay opened are still empty (eg Dixons). This sounds to me like yet another pipe-dream.
Dixons has never been empty - it just rebranded as Currys, and West Quay has around 85 to 90% occupancy, I believe.

East Street and Bargate are doing poorly because they offer nothing different/better to what West Quay can - and thus are being redeveloped to try and rectify that problem.

Oh and Southy, Mayflower Park is to be untouched in these plans, so please stop with the paranoid conspiracy theories.

[quote][p][bold]News Fanatic[/bold] wrote: With so many shops and offices empty in the city, what is the point of building even more? East Street and Bargate Shopping Centres are almost deserted; the Marlands has empty shops, particulary on the first floor and some of the shops that closed when WestQuay opened are still empty (eg Dixons). This sounds to me like yet another pipe-dream.[/p][/quote]Dixons has never been empty - it just rebranded as Currys, and West Quay has around 85 to 90% occupancy, I believe. East Street and Bargate are doing poorly because they offer nothing different/better to what West Quay can - and thus are being redeveloped to try and rectify that problem. Oh and Southy, Mayflower Park is to be untouched in these plans, so please stop with the paranoid conspiracy theories. Sulaiman Al Fahim
  • Score: 0

12:13pm Wed 16 Sep 09

Saintbob says...

Wow Factor!!

Will it include an Ice Rink?
Wow Factor!! Will it include an Ice Rink? Saintbob
  • Score: 0

12:18pm Wed 16 Sep 09

Lone Ranger says...

News Fanatic wrote:
With so many shops and offices empty in the city, what is the point of building even more? East Street and Bargate Shopping Centres are almost deserted; the Marlands has empty shops, particulary on the first floor and some of the shops that closed when WestQuay opened are still empty (eg Dixons). This sounds to me like yet another pipe-dream.
You wont need to worry......it will take years to get off the drawing board and a few years to build. By the time this getys built we will be on West Quay 6...and Southy will be Prime Minister !! now there's a thought
[quote][p][bold]News Fanatic[/bold] wrote: With so many shops and offices empty in the city, what is the point of building even more? East Street and Bargate Shopping Centres are almost deserted; the Marlands has empty shops, particulary on the first floor and some of the shops that closed when WestQuay opened are still empty (eg Dixons). This sounds to me like yet another pipe-dream.[/p][/quote]You wont need to worry......it will take years to get off the drawing board and a few years to build. By the time this getys built we will be on West Quay 6...and Southy will be Prime Minister !! now there's a thought Lone Ranger
  • Score: 0

12:25pm Wed 16 Sep 09

southy says...

Sulaiman Al Fahim, UAE said ""Oh and Southy, Mayflower Park is to be untouched in these plans, so please stop with the paranoid conspiracy theories."" will it, it might be at first, but the first thing you see, nobody allowed to fish on the wall, this reduces the number that go in there, then they let the play area fall in to poor condition, less people go there, then you find the walk though gates lock at night, oh wait they all ready got away with this, because they use the excuse of drunks, and public health and safety, like i said take a real long hard think about it and look back at what has happen in the pass, and the ideas that have come up,
Sulaiman Al Fahim, UAE said ""Oh and Southy, Mayflower Park is to be untouched in these plans, so please stop with the paranoid conspiracy theories."" will it, it might be at first, but the first thing you see, nobody allowed to fish on the wall, this reduces the number that go in there, then they let the play area fall in to poor condition, less people go there, then you find the walk though gates lock at night, oh wait they all ready got away with this, because they use the excuse of drunks, and public health and safety, like i said take a real long hard think about it and look back at what has happen in the pass, and the ideas that have come up, southy
  • Score: 0

12:33pm Wed 16 Sep 09

timjim says...

People like a waterfront, the problem is Southampton only offers very little of it to the public - so in theory anything that offers us more frontage should be applauded.
But there is so much waste of space, the whole waterfront requires much more thought than the plans above.
1, Move Red funnel offices(?) and location to Town Quay - open up the area they currently use for public redevelopment - it could include the old royal pier area and the Mayflower park area.
or
2, Redevelop the site, use the entrance road as a promenade, open up shops and restaurants to face that way - at least you could sit and drink and eat in the sun in the afternoon/evening. Move Red Funnel Car operations elsewhere in the docks - how about where the Vesta's turbines are stored, presumably that space will be free soon, or use the 'dream boat' fantasy dock.
Many thoughts exist, I have seen many great working ports around the world - which manage to offer a great amount of space to the public too.
It needs money, yes, but long term it will be worth it. It will take time, but everything does, again it will be worth it.
People like a waterfront, the problem is Southampton only offers very little of it to the public - so in theory anything that offers us more frontage should be applauded. But there is so much waste of space, the whole waterfront requires much more thought than the plans above. 1, Move Red funnel offices(?) and location to Town Quay - open up the area they currently use for public redevelopment - it could include the old royal pier area and the Mayflower park area. or 2, Redevelop the site, use the entrance road as a promenade, open up shops and restaurants to face that way - at least you could sit and drink and eat in the sun in the afternoon/evening. Move Red Funnel Car operations elsewhere in the docks - how about where the Vesta's turbines are stored, presumably that space will be free soon, or use the 'dream boat' fantasy dock. Many thoughts exist, I have seen many great working ports around the world - which manage to offer a great amount of space to the public too. It needs money, yes, but long term it will be worth it. It will take time, but everything does, again it will be worth it. timjim
  • Score: 0

12:45pm Wed 16 Sep 09

Brite Spark says...

Surely we don't want a casino there? This sounds promising though, it would be a nice place to go fishing, beneath a Spitfire Memorial and near to a decent Maritime Museum and ice cream van. Also, lets bring back the putting green and big slides that used to be at Mayflower Park.
Surely we don't want a casino there? This sounds promising though, it would be a nice place to go fishing, beneath a Spitfire Memorial and near to a decent Maritime Museum and ice cream van. Also, lets bring back the putting green and big slides that used to be at Mayflower Park. Brite Spark
  • Score: 0

1:15pm Wed 16 Sep 09

Rudd Gillett says...

They always trot these things out when "The Worlds Greatest Boat-Show" hits town...come November it will all be forgotten and consigned to the rubbish bin. Southampton is the biggest "IF" city in the world, If we had done that, IF we did built that, IF WGS stayed and so on!
They always trot these things out when "The Worlds Greatest Boat-Show" hits town...come November it will all be forgotten and consigned to the rubbish bin. Southampton is the biggest "IF" city in the world, If we had done that, IF we did built that, IF WGS stayed and so on! Rudd Gillett
  • Score: 0

1:32pm Wed 16 Sep 09

c p says...

Sadly I understand the cost to construct the new sea wall and reclaim the land to make Mayflower Park bigger exceeds the revenue from which a redevelopment would bring.
I agree with the sentiments of Southampton being the 'If only' city, and it's time something was done. Let's have a council with a solid, sustainable, deliverable strategy for the future development of Southampton that balances new apartments with tourist interest, something for the locals, and ultimately makes SOUTHAMPTON A CITY TO BE RIGHTLY PROUD OF. Until we have ths council we will all remain sadly disappointed and subjected to these cyclical news stories.
If the Daily Echo is the Newspaper of Southampton for Southampton, perhaps they should stop reporting rubbish like this and start asking for delivery from SCC...
Oh, and ps the Boat SHow only runs once a year, so probably not base any future development proposals around this, or alternatively consider a year round Christmas Wonderland for the same effect...
Sadly I understand the cost to construct the new sea wall and reclaim the land to make Mayflower Park bigger exceeds the revenue from which a redevelopment would bring. I agree with the sentiments of Southampton being the 'If only' city, and it's time something was done. Let's have a council with a solid, sustainable, deliverable strategy for the future development of Southampton that balances new apartments with tourist interest, something for the locals, and ultimately makes SOUTHAMPTON A CITY TO BE RIGHTLY PROUD OF. Until we have ths council we will all remain sadly disappointed and subjected to these cyclical news stories. If the Daily Echo is the Newspaper of Southampton for Southampton, perhaps they should stop reporting rubbish like this and start asking for delivery from SCC... Oh, and ps the Boat SHow only runs once a year, so probably not base any future development proposals around this, or alternatively consider a year round Christmas Wonderland for the same effect... c p
  • Score: 0

1:47pm Wed 16 Sep 09

southy says...

Rudd Gillett wrote:
They always trot these things out when "The Worlds Greatest Boat-Show" hits town...come November it will all be forgotten and consigned to the rubbish bin. Southampton is the biggest "IF" city in the world, If we had done that, IF we did built that, IF WGS stayed and so on!
the problem is that they been wanting to build on this ground for years, because it would cost very little, one it was the docks after it, and they probley still do. now it the developers want to get there hands on it, i would rather see the boat go and to lose this ground to the public. and that will happen, look at the promises that was made to the local people of southampton, ocean village 6 mooring was promise to allocated to the local people,at a price they could afford, it never happened, the removal of public deep water mooring at the royal pier, city public hard sold off to private ownership, locals can no long use it free. crosshouse you lost ground here, and only a very small area remains, a promise to the locals fisherman that there would be a new public hard, slipway and boat yard above the container port, it never happen, and now the last part of water frontage. dont belive what they tell you about the public will keep it excess, because they will not keep it. the park needs to stay the way it is, open to all and not just a few.
[quote][p][bold]Rudd Gillett[/bold] wrote: They always trot these things out when "The Worlds Greatest Boat-Show" hits town...come November it will all be forgotten and consigned to the rubbish bin. Southampton is the biggest "IF" city in the world, If we had done that, IF we did built that, IF WGS stayed and so on![/p][/quote]the problem is that they been wanting to build on this ground for years, because it would cost very little, one it was the docks after it, and they probley still do. now it the developers want to get there hands on it, i would rather see the boat go and to lose this ground to the public. and that will happen, look at the promises that was made to the local people of southampton, ocean village 6 mooring was promise to allocated to the local people,at a price they could afford, it never happened, the removal of public deep water mooring at the royal pier, city public hard sold off to private ownership, locals can no long use it free. crosshouse you lost ground here, and only a very small area remains, a promise to the locals fisherman that there would be a new public hard, slipway and boat yard above the container port, it never happen, and now the last part of water frontage. dont belive what they tell you about the public will keep it excess, because they will not keep it. the park needs to stay the way it is, open to all and not just a few. southy
  • Score: 0

2:12pm Wed 16 Sep 09

Ben Doone says...

jammyswine wrote:
mr tein wrote: So the only decent waterfront park we have will be destroyed so we can have a few more shosps and restaurants. This city has no idea.
I was at the meeting and I'm afraid you are wrong. Although, as the story says, it is too early for detailed plans, the vision is for a waterfront area that is accessible and envied by similar ports around the world. I am not connected to the development, nor am I Southampton born & bred but I did think the ideas that are being put forward are exciting for the city.
I met someone yesterday who was also at the meeting. They too were impressed with the outline plans, which would reclaim more space from the sea around the old Pier site and provide far more recreational space for locals and visitors. I am sure this must be a good thing. As I understand it the covenants on Mayflower Park have to be respected although the area may actually increase in size. The Port does not want any residential building and this has been accepted.
The big challenge will be financing the work and this can only come from commercial initiatives, as all Local Councils will see their already stretched funding from Govt reduced in future years.
It may come as a surprise to the various negative posters on here but Soton enjoys a good reputation in the commercial world both home and abroad. That said, these are tough times and raising the necessary finance may be a challenge over the next 3-5 years
[quote][p][bold]jammyswine[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]mr tein[/bold] wrote: So the only decent waterfront park we have will be destroyed so we can have a few more shosps and restaurants. This city has no idea.[/p][/quote]I was at the meeting and I'm afraid you are wrong. Although, as the story says, it is too early for detailed plans, the vision is for a waterfront area that is accessible and envied by similar ports around the world. I am not connected to the development, nor am I Southampton born & bred but I did think the ideas that are being put forward are exciting for the city.[/p][/quote]I met someone yesterday who was also at the meeting. They too were impressed with the outline plans, which would reclaim more space from the sea around the old Pier site and provide far more recreational space for locals and visitors. I am sure this must be a good thing. As I understand it the covenants on Mayflower Park have to be respected although the area may actually increase in size. The Port does not want any residential building and this has been accepted. The big challenge will be financing the work and this can only come from commercial initiatives, as all Local Councils will see their already stretched funding from Govt reduced in future years. It may come as a surprise to the various negative posters on here but Soton enjoys a good reputation in the commercial world both home and abroad. That said, these are tough times and raising the necessary finance may be a challenge over the next 3-5 years Ben Doone
  • Score: 0

3:26pm Wed 16 Sep 09

mr_lee_white@hotmail.com says...

hallelujah! About time...

This makes sense and provided it's done properly will be a asset to the city.

have the developers considered re-instating the old branch-line which used to run through from Dockgate4 to Mayflower park. Most of the route is still there and it would be a piece of cake to reinstate that, with some sort of simple mass transit system... could even link to the ocean terminal so passengers can transfer out to the airport....? (sorry taxi drivers)...
hallelujah! About time... This makes sense and provided it's done properly will be a asset to the city. have the developers considered re-instating the old branch-line which used to run through from Dockgate4 to Mayflower park. Most of the route is still there and it would be a piece of cake to reinstate that, with some sort of simple mass transit system... could even link to the ocean terminal so passengers can transfer out to the airport....? (sorry taxi drivers)... mr_lee_white@hotmail.com
  • Score: 0

3:52pm Wed 16 Sep 09

goard says...

Well, City Fathers, can one observe a whole plethora of 'hope' maybe 'wish' or a dread of 'greedy business ventures'. Suffice to say - most of us distrust the lot of you. Stand up the one who stands up to these greedy morons. All we want is this small piece of frontage to the Solent for us to enjoy. All we want is an unpoluted water front to breath and dream and feel unrestrained. Whoever is in control - please do not turn your back on us.

goard
Well, City Fathers, can one observe a whole plethora of 'hope' maybe 'wish' or a dread of 'greedy business ventures'. Suffice to say - most of us distrust the lot of you. Stand up the one who stands up to these greedy morons. All we want is this small piece of frontage to the Solent for us to enjoy. All we want is an unpoluted water front to breath and dream and feel unrestrained. Whoever is in control - please do not turn your back on us. goard goard
  • Score: 0

4:03pm Wed 16 Sep 09

Ben Doone says...

Goard
As I read it this is a scheme designed to provide far more, and much improved, public access to the Waterfront.
It is a private initiative supported by the City Council and the Port, who own land in the area.
Hopefully it ticks quite a few boxes altho funding will be a significant challenge.
If it doesnt work a great opportunity will be lost in my view
Out of interest a lot of people post here quoting the term 'greed'.
How do you define the word 'greed'?
Goard As I read it this is a scheme designed to provide far more, and much improved, public access to the Waterfront. It is a private initiative supported by the City Council and the Port, who own land in the area. Hopefully it ticks quite a few boxes altho funding will be a significant challenge. If it doesnt work a great opportunity will be lost in my view Out of interest a lot of people post here quoting the term 'greed'. How do you define the word 'greed'? Ben Doone
  • Score: 0

4:40pm Wed 16 Sep 09

Mac Ince says...

I can't find any plans on the Kilmartin web-site.
Does anyone know if anything has been proposed?
I can't find any plans on the Kilmartin web-site. Does anyone know if anything has been proposed? Mac Ince
  • Score: 0

4:47pm Wed 16 Sep 09

jammyswine says...

As I posted earlier, there are no plans at this stage. The project must be self financing and viable in the long term to succeed as there is no public money for it. Also, there will be NO residential on the site as ABP will not allow it. The focus of the development will be to improve the facilities for everyone, especially residents. To answer some previous posters, sadly there are no firm plans for an ice rink although some sort of arena was discussed, there will be no residential and it will be privately financed.
As I posted earlier, there are no plans at this stage. The project must be self financing and viable in the long term to succeed as there is no public money for it. Also, there will be NO residential on the site as ABP will not allow it. The focus of the development will be to improve the facilities for everyone, especially residents. To answer some previous posters, sadly there are no firm plans for an ice rink although some sort of arena was discussed, there will be no residential and it will be privately financed. jammyswine
  • Score: 0

4:49pm Wed 16 Sep 09

jammyswine says...

Oh, and the Boat Show are well aware of the relatively small amount of time they occupy the area and accept that plans for the area will, although include the boat show, not be based around it.
Oh, and the Boat Show are well aware of the relatively small amount of time they occupy the area and accept that plans for the area will, although include the boat show, not be based around it. jammyswine
  • Score: 0

6:10pm Wed 16 Sep 09

ex plodicus says...

whats it going to be called then?
kuti,s park. kuti,s berth.
i love the sw/RARE_SURE!
whats it going to be called then? kuti,s park. kuti,s berth. i love the sw/RARE_SURE! ex plodicus
  • Score: 0

7:51pm Wed 16 Sep 09

News Fanatic says...

Sulaiman Al Fahim wrote:
News Fanatic wrote:
With so many shops and offices empty in the city, what is the point of building even more? East Street and Bargate Shopping Centres are almost deserted; the Marlands has empty shops, particulary on the first floor and some of the shops that closed when WestQuay opened are still empty (eg Dixons). This sounds to me like yet another pipe-dream.
Dixons has never been empty - it just rebranded as Currys, and West Quay has around 85 to 90% occupancy, I believe.

East Street and Bargate are doing poorly because they offer nothing different/better to what West Quay can - and thus are being redeveloped to try and rectify that problem.

Oh and Southy, Mayflower Park is to be untouched in these plans, so please stop with the paranoid conspiracy theories.

You did not read my post correctly. Dixons' old shop on the corner of Above Bar and Commercial Road is still empty about eight years after WestQuay opened.
I am aware that Dixons rebranded and is now Currys.
[quote][p][bold]Sulaiman Al Fahim[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]News Fanatic[/bold] wrote: With so many shops and offices empty in the city, what is the point of building even more? East Street and Bargate Shopping Centres are almost deserted; the Marlands has empty shops, particulary on the first floor and some of the shops that closed when WestQuay opened are still empty (eg Dixons). This sounds to me like yet another pipe-dream.[/p][/quote]Dixons has never been empty - it just rebranded as Currys, and West Quay has around 85 to 90% occupancy, I believe. East Street and Bargate are doing poorly because they offer nothing different/better to what West Quay can - and thus are being redeveloped to try and rectify that problem. Oh and Southy, Mayflower Park is to be untouched in these plans, so please stop with the paranoid conspiracy theories. [/p][/quote]You did not read my post correctly. Dixons' old shop on the corner of Above Bar and Commercial Road is still empty about eight years after WestQuay opened. I am aware that Dixons rebranded and is now Currys. News Fanatic
  • Score: 0

7:55pm Wed 16 Sep 09

News Fanatic says...

News Fanatic wrote:
Sulaiman Al Fahim wrote:
News Fanatic wrote:
With so many shops and offices empty in the city, what is the point of building even more? East Street and Bargate Shopping Centres are almost deserted; the Marlands has empty shops, particulary on the first floor and some of the shops that closed when WestQuay opened are still empty (eg Dixons). This sounds to me like yet another pipe-dream.
Dixons has never been empty - it just rebranded as Currys, and West Quay has around 85 to 90% occupancy, I believe.

East Street and Bargate are doing poorly because they offer nothing different/better to what West Quay can - and thus are being redeveloped to try and rectify that problem.

Oh and Southy, Mayflower Park is to be untouched in these plans, so please stop with the paranoid conspiracy theories.

You did not read my post correctly. Dixons' old shop on the corner of Above Bar and Commercial Road is still empty about eight years after WestQuay opened.
I am aware that Dixons rebranded and is now Currys.
Sorry, that should have read Above Bar and Civic Centre Road.
[quote][p][bold]News Fanatic[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Sulaiman Al Fahim[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]News Fanatic[/bold] wrote: With so many shops and offices empty in the city, what is the point of building even more? East Street and Bargate Shopping Centres are almost deserted; the Marlands has empty shops, particulary on the first floor and some of the shops that closed when WestQuay opened are still empty (eg Dixons). This sounds to me like yet another pipe-dream.[/p][/quote]Dixons has never been empty - it just rebranded as Currys, and West Quay has around 85 to 90% occupancy, I believe. East Street and Bargate are doing poorly because they offer nothing different/better to what West Quay can - and thus are being redeveloped to try and rectify that problem. Oh and Southy, Mayflower Park is to be untouched in these plans, so please stop with the paranoid conspiracy theories. [/p][/quote]You did not read my post correctly. Dixons' old shop on the corner of Above Bar and Commercial Road is still empty about eight years after WestQuay opened. I am aware that Dixons rebranded and is now Currys.[/p][/quote]Sorry, that should have read Above Bar and Civic Centre Road. News Fanatic
  • Score: 0

8:13pm Wed 16 Sep 09

southy says...

jammyswine, SouthamptonAlso,siad "there will be NO residential on the site as ABP will not allow it."
ABPJ dont own mayflower park, even lo they wish that they did. but they do own red funnel ferry, and the royal pier, interesting enough, is that they would be all for this sort of thing, but block the rebuilding of the royal pier to some thing near its former glory. ummm i wonder why that is, maybe its some thing for there jersey friends and not the locals
jammyswine, SouthamptonAlso,siad "there will be NO residential on the site as ABP will not allow it." ABPJ dont own mayflower park, even lo they wish that they did. but they do own red funnel ferry, and the royal pier, interesting enough, is that they would be all for this sort of thing, but block the rebuilding of the royal pier to some thing near its former glory. ummm i wonder why that is, maybe its some thing for there jersey friends and not the locals southy
  • Score: 0

8:22pm Wed 16 Sep 09

Pobinr says...

It's amazing how few restaurants Southampton has with waterfront views. We've been left behind compaired to Cities like Porstmouth & Cardiff.
Our city planners have shown a severe lack of vision over recent decades. Town key is prime waterfront property & yet is mostly a car park !!!!!!!
The pier ruins have been an eysore for decades. I hope the new proposals aren't compromised by the 10 day once a year wonder the boat show. If the plans go ahead the development will bring in far more money all year round than the boat show does.
If the council spent less money on pointless traffic lights every 100 yards such as on Millbrooke roundabout, pavement widening schemes & mini roundabouts no one wants or needs, then they might have had some council tax payers money spare to develope the waterfront themselves.
It's amazing how few restaurants Southampton has with waterfront views. We've been left behind compaired to Cities like Porstmouth & Cardiff. Our city planners have shown a severe lack of vision over recent decades. Town key is prime waterfront property & yet is mostly a car park !!!!!!! The pier ruins have been an eysore for decades. I hope the new proposals aren't compromised by the 10 day once a year wonder the boat show. If the plans go ahead the development will bring in far more money all year round than the boat show does. If the council spent less money on pointless traffic lights every 100 yards such as on Millbrooke roundabout, pavement widening schemes & mini roundabouts no one wants or needs, then they might have had some council tax payers money spare to develope the waterfront themselves. Pobinr
  • Score: 0

8:53pm Wed 16 Sep 09

Ben Doone says...

southy wrote:
jammyswine, SouthamptonAlso,siad "there will be NO residential on the site as ABP will not allow it." ABPJ dont own mayflower park, even lo they wish that they did. but they do own red funnel ferry, and the royal pier, interesting enough, is that they would be all for this sort of thing, but block the rebuilding of the royal pier to some thing near its former glory. ummm i wonder why that is, maybe its some thing for there jersey friends and not the locals
Southy
Your off the pace as ever.
ABP sold off Red Funnel Ferries (to a management buyout)and Red Funnel Tugs (to Alexander Tugs) several years ago
The Ferry company was then sold again about 3 years ago to the Prudential and Switzer bought the Tug operation.
Whilst ABP don't own Mayflower Park they do own part of the surrounding area (incl Royal Pier and Town Quay) which are important to the proposed scheme.
ABP also own a fair part of the foreshore along with the Crown Estate.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: jammyswine, SouthamptonAlso,siad "there will be NO residential on the site as ABP will not allow it." ABPJ dont own mayflower park, even lo they wish that they did. but they do own red funnel ferry, and the royal pier, interesting enough, is that they would be all for this sort of thing, but block the rebuilding of the royal pier to some thing near its former glory. ummm i wonder why that is, maybe its some thing for there jersey friends and not the locals[/p][/quote]Southy Your off the pace as ever. ABP sold off Red Funnel Ferries (to a management buyout)and Red Funnel Tugs (to Alexander Tugs) several years ago The Ferry company was then sold again about 3 years ago to the Prudential and Switzer bought the Tug operation. Whilst ABP don't own Mayflower Park they do own part of the surrounding area (incl Royal Pier and Town Quay) which are important to the proposed scheme. ABP also own a fair part of the foreshore along with the Crown Estate. Ben Doone
  • Score: 0

10:14pm Wed 16 Sep 09

southy says...

thanx for the info ben i did know they sold of the ferrys but was not sure about the land,
when you say foreshore how do you mean that, because a lot people dont relise, what foreshore means or what part is counted has a foreshore, and it gets mix up with forebeach, crown estates own every thing below the highest tides, ( that is the 200 year spring tides ), and out to 200 miles from the coast, or half way between another country, apart from 2 places in the country exbury and holy island, they have rights down to the lowest spring tides, then theres tittle at beauilieu a 2lb javelin throw, from the top of highest tide, but then again the crown owns all the land, weather if you got a deeds of any type.
thanx for the info ben i did know they sold of the ferrys but was not sure about the land, when you say foreshore how do you mean that, because a lot people dont relise, what foreshore means or what part is counted has a foreshore, and it gets mix up with forebeach, crown estates own every thing below the highest tides, ( that is the 200 year spring tides ), and out to 200 miles from the coast, or half way between another country, apart from 2 places in the country exbury and holy island, they have rights down to the lowest spring tides, then theres tittle at beauilieu a 2lb javelin throw, from the top of highest tide, but then again the crown owns all the land, weather if you got a deeds of any type. southy
  • Score: 0

9:22am Thu 17 Sep 09

BrixtonSaint says...

Sorry, is no one aghast at the loss of the Royal Pier? I thought a study a few years back found the old girl was still structurally sound and the timbers as tough as titanium. WTF is going on here? SCC once again is allowing the already depleated stock of architectural heritage to be stripped again. I seriously wonder if Hitler had as much of a detrimental effect on our city's skyline as city planners in the 50 odd years since. For crying out loud, what is there if we can't look at something which gives an idea of where we came from. The demolishing of the Pier should be halted forthwith and plans put in to reverse the sitauation and a pavillion restored to its rightful place. This is a disgrace and should be fought. Look here www.davidstjohn.co.u
k/royalpier.html , for a bit of history about the place. We should be wallowing in our heritage whilst being a vanguard for all that is new and forward thinking to make the city an icon worldwide. Sadly it seems we're left with a load of chumps who's only interest is their own.
Sorry, is no one aghast at the loss of the Royal Pier? I thought a study a few years back found the old girl was still structurally sound and the timbers as tough as titanium. WTF is going on here? SCC once again is allowing the already depleated stock of architectural heritage to be stripped again. I seriously wonder if Hitler had as much of a detrimental effect on our city's skyline as city planners in the 50 odd years since. For crying out loud, what is there if we can't look at something which gives an idea of where we came from. The demolishing of the Pier should be halted forthwith and plans put in to reverse the sitauation and a pavillion restored to its rightful place. This is a disgrace and should be fought. Look here www.davidstjohn.co.u k/royalpier.html , for a bit of history about the place. We should be wallowing in our heritage whilst being a vanguard for all that is new and forward thinking to make the city an icon worldwide. Sadly it seems we're left with a load of chumps who's only interest is their own. BrixtonSaint
  • Score: 0

9:23am Thu 17 Sep 09

freemantlegirl2 says...

I hope this comes to fruition, WITHOUT a casino! This has to be a private imitative as someone has already said and explained in great detail why. Sadly that will have to include some commercial ventures but that has been the way with these developments for some time now. If we can have a classy, vibrant waterfront for use by all, locals and visitors - do we really care if one or two plonkers have to go further down to land their small boats or go fishing? nope! I thought socialism was thinking about benefiting society as a whole and redistributing wealth Southy, not protecting the rights of the few who insist on 'landing' their boats at Mayflower park, or fishing 'off' the wall! However, they would need to drastically improve the road system to accommodate these plans, I haven't looked at them in detail so don't know if that is included? presently there is a bottleneck there with the IoW terminal, and people travelling to and from town, lesuireworld, IKEA, Quays etc.
I hope this comes to fruition, WITHOUT a casino! This has to be a private imitative as someone has already said and explained in great detail why. Sadly that will have to include some commercial ventures but that has been the way with these developments for some time now. If we can have a classy, vibrant waterfront for use by all, locals and visitors - do we really care if one or two plonkers have to go further down to land their small boats or go fishing? nope! I thought socialism was thinking about benefiting society as a whole and redistributing wealth Southy, not protecting the rights of the few who insist on 'landing' their boats at Mayflower park, or fishing 'off' the wall! However, they would need to drastically improve the road system to accommodate these plans, I haven't looked at them in detail so don't know if that is included? presently there is a bottleneck there with the IoW terminal, and people travelling to and from town, lesuireworld, IKEA, Quays etc. freemantlegirl2
  • Score: 0

10:33am Thu 17 Sep 09

Ben Doone says...

BrixtonSaint wrote:
Sorry, is no one aghast at the loss of the Royal Pier? I thought a study a few years back found the old girl was still structurally sound and the timbers as tough as titanium. WTF is going on here? SCC once again is allowing the already depleated stock of architectural heritage to be stripped again. I seriously wonder if Hitler had as much of a detrimental effect on our city's skyline as city planners in the 50 odd years since. For crying out loud, what is there if we can't look at something which gives an idea of where we came from. The demolishing of the Pier should be halted forthwith and plans put in to reverse the sitauation and a pavillion restored to its rightful place. This is a disgrace and should be fought. Look here www.davidstjohn.co.u k/royalpier.html , for a bit of history about the place. We should be wallowing in our heritage whilst being a vanguard for all that is new and forward thinking to make the city an icon worldwide. Sadly it seems we're left with a load of chumps who's only interest is their own.
Brixton
Thanks for the link to David StJohns site. Certainly brought back many memories for me walking on the Pier as a youngster with my parents and then as a teenager in the Dance Hall (wasn't there an old Supermarine Speed record plane on display by the entrance once?)
It would be interesting to know how secure the Pier foundations are. I have been told they are not safe but I guess there needs to be definitive information from a structural engineer.
Personally I am torn between two emotions here. Firstly I agree it would be great to see the Pier reinstated to its former glory. However looking at this from a commercial perspective I can't see any way this could work financially. So I would throw my hat into the ring with some sort of waterside development,as successfully achieved in many port cities around the world, which gives more public access to the waterfront.
The Kilmartin scheme seems to be on the right track (without knowing all the details)
However as has been pointed out many times, funding will be a major challenge and it investment cash on this scale won't become available for a few years yet.
Meanwhile whilst I understand people's frustration with the local Council.
All the Council can really do is encourage commercial interests to invest in the city and these commercial interests will only do so for a return on their investment ie the nasty word 'profit'
The Council can invest part of their own income of course (which reduces money for basic services which is unacceptable), or take out commercial loans (as Portsmouth did to part finance the Spinnaker Tower or as Eastleigh are doing to assist development of the Rose Bowl) but again there would have to be some 'profit' element.
The third option is to obtain some EU or UK grant aid. Portsmouth did this with the Spinnaker Tower (Millenium Fund) and northern cities are awash with EU funding. However the so called 'prosperous' southern cities have no chance of qualifying.
Unfortunately out of all this I can only see the current disappointing shambles around Royal Pier continuing for a few years yet.
Optimistically (and as a ship lover) may be by 2025 the Soton Waterfront will be developed into a major attraction with views over to a vibrant port extension at Dibden Bay.
Shame I wont be around to see it!!
[quote][p][bold]BrixtonSaint[/bold] wrote: Sorry, is no one aghast at the loss of the Royal Pier? I thought a study a few years back found the old girl was still structurally sound and the timbers as tough as titanium. WTF is going on here? SCC once again is allowing the already depleated stock of architectural heritage to be stripped again. I seriously wonder if Hitler had as much of a detrimental effect on our city's skyline as city planners in the 50 odd years since. For crying out loud, what is there if we can't look at something which gives an idea of where we came from. The demolishing of the Pier should be halted forthwith and plans put in to reverse the sitauation and a pavillion restored to its rightful place. This is a disgrace and should be fought. Look here www.davidstjohn.co.u k/royalpier.html , for a bit of history about the place. We should be wallowing in our heritage whilst being a vanguard for all that is new and forward thinking to make the city an icon worldwide. Sadly it seems we're left with a load of chumps who's only interest is their own.[/p][/quote]Brixton Thanks for the link to David StJohns site. Certainly brought back many memories for me walking on the Pier as a youngster with my parents and then as a teenager in the Dance Hall (wasn't there an old Supermarine Speed record plane on display by the entrance once?) It would be interesting to know how secure the Pier foundations are. I have been told they are not safe but I guess there needs to be definitive information from a structural engineer. Personally I am torn between two emotions here. Firstly I agree it would be great to see the Pier reinstated to its former glory. However looking at this from a commercial perspective I can't see any way this could work financially. So I would throw my hat into the ring with some sort of waterside development,as successfully achieved in many port cities around the world, which gives more public access to the waterfront. The Kilmartin scheme seems to be on the right track (without knowing all the details) However as has been pointed out many times, funding will be a major challenge and it investment cash on this scale won't become available for a few years yet. Meanwhile whilst I understand people's frustration with the local Council. All the Council can really do is encourage commercial interests to invest in the city and these commercial interests will only do so for a return on their investment ie the nasty word 'profit' The Council can invest part of their own income of course (which reduces money for basic services which is unacceptable), or take out commercial loans (as Portsmouth did to part finance the Spinnaker Tower or as Eastleigh are doing to assist development of the Rose Bowl) but again there would have to be some 'profit' element. The third option is to obtain some EU or UK grant aid. Portsmouth did this with the Spinnaker Tower (Millenium Fund) and northern cities are awash with EU funding. However the so called 'prosperous' southern cities have no chance of qualifying. Unfortunately out of all this I can only see the current disappointing shambles around Royal Pier continuing for a few years yet. Optimistically (and as a ship lover) may be by 2025 the Soton Waterfront will be developed into a major attraction with views over to a vibrant port extension at Dibden Bay. Shame I wont be around to see it!! Ben Doone
  • Score: 0

11:17am Thu 17 Sep 09

freemantlegirl2 says...

Ben Doone wrote:
BrixtonSaint wrote:
Sorry, is no one aghast at the loss of the Royal Pier? I thought a study a few years back found the old girl was still structurally sound and the timbers as tough as titanium. WTF is going on here? SCC once again is allowing the already depleated stock of architectural heritage to be stripped again. I seriously wonder if Hitler had as much of a detrimental effect on our city's skyline as city planners in the 50 odd years since. For crying out loud, what is there if we can't look at something which gives an idea of where we came from. The demolishing of the Pier should be halted forthwith and plans put in to reverse the sitauation and a pavillion restored to its rightful place. This is a disgrace and should be fought. Look here www.davidstjohn.co.u k/royalpier.html , for a bit of history about the place. We should be wallowing in our heritage whilst being a vanguard for all that is new and forward thinking to make the city an icon worldwide. Sadly it seems we're left with a load of chumps who's only interest is their own.
Brixton
Thanks for the link to David StJohns site. Certainly brought back many memories for me walking on the Pier as a youngster with my parents and then as a teenager in the Dance Hall (wasn't there an old Supermarine Speed record plane on display by the entrance once?)
It would be interesting to know how secure the Pier foundations are. I have been told they are not safe but I guess there needs to be definitive information from a structural engineer.
Personally I am torn between two emotions here. Firstly I agree it would be great to see the Pier reinstated to its former glory. However looking at this from a commercial perspective I can't see any way this could work financially. So I would throw my hat into the ring with some sort of waterside development,as successfully achieved in many port cities around the world, which gives more public access to the waterfront.
The Kilmartin scheme seems to be on the right track (without knowing all the details)
However as has been pointed out many times, funding will be a major challenge and it investment cash on this scale won't become available for a few years yet.
Meanwhile whilst I understand people's frustration with the local Council.
All the Council can really do is encourage commercial interests to invest in the city and these commercial interests will only do so for a return on their investment ie the nasty word 'profit'
The Council can invest part of their own income of course (which reduces money for basic services which is unacceptable), or take out commercial loans (as Portsmouth did to part finance the Spinnaker Tower or as Eastleigh are doing to assist development of the Rose Bowl) but again there would have to be some 'profit' element.
The third option is to obtain some EU or UK grant aid. Portsmouth did this with the Spinnaker Tower (Millenium Fund) and northern cities are awash with EU funding. However the so called 'prosperous' southern cities have no chance of qualifying.
Unfortunately out of all this I can only see the current disappointing shambles around Royal Pier continuing for a few years yet.
Optimistically (and as a ship lover) may be by 2025 the Soton Waterfront will be developed into a major attraction with views over to a vibrant port extension at Dibden Bay.
Shame I wont be around to see it!!
Two great, and informative posts! I'm off to look at the website too (waiting in for Sky person to arrive, should have been here two hours ago... ho hum)..... this has really piqued my interest! thank you! :)
[quote][p][bold]Ben Doone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]BrixtonSaint[/bold] wrote: Sorry, is no one aghast at the loss of the Royal Pier? I thought a study a few years back found the old girl was still structurally sound and the timbers as tough as titanium. WTF is going on here? SCC once again is allowing the already depleated stock of architectural heritage to be stripped again. I seriously wonder if Hitler had as much of a detrimental effect on our city's skyline as city planners in the 50 odd years since. For crying out loud, what is there if we can't look at something which gives an idea of where we came from. The demolishing of the Pier should be halted forthwith and plans put in to reverse the sitauation and a pavillion restored to its rightful place. This is a disgrace and should be fought. Look here www.davidstjohn.co.u k/royalpier.html , for a bit of history about the place. We should be wallowing in our heritage whilst being a vanguard for all that is new and forward thinking to make the city an icon worldwide. Sadly it seems we're left with a load of chumps who's only interest is their own.[/p][/quote]Brixton Thanks for the link to David StJohns site. Certainly brought back many memories for me walking on the Pier as a youngster with my parents and then as a teenager in the Dance Hall (wasn't there an old Supermarine Speed record plane on display by the entrance once?) It would be interesting to know how secure the Pier foundations are. I have been told they are not safe but I guess there needs to be definitive information from a structural engineer. Personally I am torn between two emotions here. Firstly I agree it would be great to see the Pier reinstated to its former glory. However looking at this from a commercial perspective I can't see any way this could work financially. So I would throw my hat into the ring with some sort of waterside development,as successfully achieved in many port cities around the world, which gives more public access to the waterfront. The Kilmartin scheme seems to be on the right track (without knowing all the details) However as has been pointed out many times, funding will be a major challenge and it investment cash on this scale won't become available for a few years yet. Meanwhile whilst I understand people's frustration with the local Council. All the Council can really do is encourage commercial interests to invest in the city and these commercial interests will only do so for a return on their investment ie the nasty word 'profit' The Council can invest part of their own income of course (which reduces money for basic services which is unacceptable), or take out commercial loans (as Portsmouth did to part finance the Spinnaker Tower or as Eastleigh are doing to assist development of the Rose Bowl) but again there would have to be some 'profit' element. The third option is to obtain some EU or UK grant aid. Portsmouth did this with the Spinnaker Tower (Millenium Fund) and northern cities are awash with EU funding. However the so called 'prosperous' southern cities have no chance of qualifying. Unfortunately out of all this I can only see the current disappointing shambles around Royal Pier continuing for a few years yet. Optimistically (and as a ship lover) may be by 2025 the Soton Waterfront will be developed into a major attraction with views over to a vibrant port extension at Dibden Bay. Shame I wont be around to see it!![/p][/quote]Two great, and informative posts! I'm off to look at the website too (waiting in for Sky person to arrive, should have been here two hours ago... ho hum)..... this has really piqued my interest! thank you! :) freemantlegirl2
  • Score: 0

12:32pm Thu 17 Sep 09

confused of kingsland says...

Look what happened to Ocean Village! Be afraid...be very afraid!!
Look what happened to Ocean Village! Be afraid...be very afraid!! confused of kingsland
  • Score: 0

2:19pm Thu 17 Sep 09

jammyswine says...

confused of kingsland wrote:
Look what happened to Ocean Village! Be afraid...be very afraid!!
Ocean Village was a mainly residential development, Waterfront will be different. In the briefing, they did actually specifically reference Ocean Village as an example of what will not be built.
[quote][p][bold]confused of kingsland[/bold] wrote: Look what happened to Ocean Village! Be afraid...be very afraid!![/p][/quote]Ocean Village was a mainly residential development, Waterfront will be different. In the briefing, they did actually specifically reference Ocean Village as an example of what will not be built. jammyswine
  • Score: 0

2:49pm Thu 17 Sep 09

southy says...

it this developemnet go's a head, you can say good bye to the boat show, because once the marina is full of high paying moored boats, they will not to move them to a temp moorings because of the cost involved, or are abpj thinking about taking over the boat show to, and moving it to eastern docks.
the only reason why nothing has been done to the pier is because abpj owns it, and they will block any thing that dont suit there needs/ or what they want. same has abp did in the pass, not for the locals to have or to use.

ben i can remeber when there was 3 gaint pepbles near the north side gat to the pier, and a WWII floating mine on the pier that use to take domations, and a statue of deep sea diver. like you i also went to the mecca dance hall at the end of the pier, well that was when i was not at sea, we use to go there or the surrey arms, near queens park.
it this developemnet go's a head, you can say good bye to the boat show, because once the marina is full of high paying moored boats, they will not to move them to a temp moorings because of the cost involved, or are abpj thinking about taking over the boat show to, and moving it to eastern docks. the only reason why nothing has been done to the pier is because abpj owns it, and they will block any thing that dont suit there needs/ or what they want. same has abp did in the pass, not for the locals to have or to use. ben i can remeber when there was 3 gaint pepbles near the north side gat to the pier, and a WWII floating mine on the pier that use to take domations, and a statue of deep sea diver. like you i also went to the mecca dance hall at the end of the pier, well that was when i was not at sea, we use to go there or the surrey arms, near queens park. southy
  • Score: 0

3:49pm Thu 17 Sep 09

jammyswine says...

At the briefing, it was stated that although the Boat Show only accounts for about 3% of the year, it will be an integral part of the plans for the future of the waterfront.
At the briefing, it was stated that although the Boat Show only accounts for about 3% of the year, it will be an integral part of the plans for the future of the waterfront. jammyswine
  • Score: 0

4:01pm Thu 17 Sep 09

Ben Doone says...

Southy
I think one of the fundamental requirements of the scheme is to ensure the future of the Boat Show by i) providing more space on land and ii) providing more berting space to moor the boats. At the moment I understand that demand exceeds supply.
If you read the Echo report you will find that the Boat Show are firmly behind the proposed scheme
There is also a plan to have marina space which will provide for the likes of Shieldhall/Calshot Tug/Lightship (currently at Ocean Village) as well as other commercial craft.
Tell me something are there public access hards in Portsmouth?
btw thanks for mentioning the mine. Wasnt there some sort of coin slot where you could donate money to charity?
What was the name of the Wooden pub opposite Town Quay (was it the 'Ship' or the 'Sun'?
Southy I think one of the fundamental requirements of the scheme is to ensure the future of the Boat Show by i) providing more space on land and ii) providing more berting space to moor the boats. At the moment I understand that demand exceeds supply. If you read the Echo report you will find that the Boat Show are firmly behind the proposed scheme There is also a plan to have marina space which will provide for the likes of Shieldhall/Calshot Tug/Lightship (currently at Ocean Village) as well as other commercial craft. Tell me something are there public access hards in Portsmouth? btw thanks for mentioning the mine. Wasnt there some sort of coin slot where you could donate money to charity? What was the name of the Wooden pub opposite Town Quay (was it the 'Ship' or the 'Sun'? Ben Doone
  • Score: 0

4:34pm Thu 17 Sep 09

southy says...

the sun was the name of the pub.
yes there was a slot for coins in the mine, it was for to help the up keep of the pier.
they kept all there public hards and slipways in portmouth, only thing that they lost was the 1 public boat yard, that never got handed back after the war, but the other one was made larger, and was not far away from the other one. the difference between southampton and portmouth is any thing that was lost on the water front it was replace. maybe why portsmouth has a better reputation than southampton, for looking after local people needs, and boy that really gets my goat a bit, they realise that they are a working town/city, and more or less kept it that way. locals come first and tourist come second, where has here its the other way round, well in southampton case local's come last, unless your well off.
think about it a bit more on this spot ben, where are they going to have more room, they are talking about a marina in side the wall, filled with boats that will be there most of the time, what are they going to do with those boats when the boat show is on moor them else where temp or put the pontoons on the outter wall where they be sticking out into the shipping channel, are they going to in fill some of it for new buildings. ect ect ect i can see loads of problems with this idea and not just short term long term to. like i have said above. all so need to remember those people thing the idea likes most dont live here and are only seen once or twice in the area.
the sun was the name of the pub. yes there was a slot for coins in the mine, it was for to help the up keep of the pier. they kept all there public hards and slipways in portmouth, only thing that they lost was the 1 public boat yard, that never got handed back after the war, but the other one was made larger, and was not far away from the other one. the difference between southampton and portmouth is any thing that was lost on the water front it was replace. maybe why portsmouth has a better reputation than southampton, for looking after local people needs, and boy that really gets my goat a bit, they realise that they are a working town/city, and more or less kept it that way. locals come first and tourist come second, where has here its the other way round, well in southampton case local's come last, unless your well off. think about it a bit more on this spot ben, where are they going to have more room, they are talking about a marina in side the wall, filled with boats that will be there most of the time, what are they going to do with those boats when the boat show is on moor them else where temp or put the pontoons on the outter wall where they be sticking out into the shipping channel, are they going to in fill some of it for new buildings. ect ect ect i can see loads of problems with this idea and not just short term long term to. like i have said above. all so need to remember those people thing the idea likes most dont live here and are only seen once or twice in the area. southy
  • Score: 0

5:00pm Thu 17 Sep 09

southy says...

ben lets go though it, bit by bit, lets break it down, in sections and see what we come up with.
lets start with the park bit that is there now,
this part has it is now you can and are allowed to fish of it, has a nice reasonable grass area for people and there kids, local river users are allowed to moor on to the wall to the park 24 hours and every day of the year, this is never closed off totally to people on the river to use, there is how ever a max stay limit of 48 hours, and if you need to stay longer then you need to apply to the council right away for permission, like in cases of repairs to make a boat safe, there is also a rule that the park can not be closed to people on foot at any time, apart from the 10 days a year when it can be closed down for maintenance. this period is taken up by the boat show. and to extend this period the council needs the full backing of the residents of the southampton, one objection and it stops right there, like it was last time, the council can how ever do a one off extention of time, and is temp. but can not do more than 7 more days over a 25 year period.
ok tell me what is planed to happen on this part, lets sort the pro's and cons out.
ben lets go though it, bit by bit, lets break it down, in sections and see what we come up with. lets start with the park bit that is there now, this part has it is now you can and are allowed to fish of it, has a nice reasonable grass area for people and there kids, local river users are allowed to moor on to the wall to the park 24 hours and every day of the year, this is never closed off totally to people on the river to use, there is how ever a max stay limit of 48 hours, and if you need to stay longer then you need to apply to the council right away for permission, like in cases of repairs to make a boat safe, there is also a rule that the park can not be closed to people on foot at any time, apart from the 10 days a year when it can be closed down for maintenance. this period is taken up by the boat show. and to extend this period the council needs the full backing of the residents of the southampton, one objection and it stops right there, like it was last time, the council can how ever do a one off extention of time, and is temp. but can not do more than 7 more days over a 25 year period. ok tell me what is planed to happen on this part, lets sort the pro's and cons out. southy
  • Score: 0

7:28pm Thu 17 Sep 09

veracity says...

southy wrote:
the sun was the name of the pub.
yes there was a slot for coins in the mine, it was for to help the up keep of the pier.
they kept all there public hards and slipways in portmouth, only thing that they lost was the 1 public boat yard, that never got handed back after the war, but the other one was made larger, and was not far away from the other one. the difference between southampton and portmouth is any thing that was lost on the water front it was replace. maybe why portsmouth has a better reputation than southampton, for looking after local people needs, and boy that really gets my goat a bit, they realise that they are a working town/city, and more or less kept it that way. locals come first and tourist come second, where has here its the other way round, well in southampton case local's come last, unless your well off.
think about it a bit more on this spot ben, where are they going to have more room, they are talking about a marina in side the wall, filled with boats that will be there most of the time, what are they going to do with those boats when the boat show is on moor them else where temp or put the pontoons on the outter wall where they be sticking out into the shipping channel, are they going to in fill some of it for new buildings. ect ect ect i can see loads of problems with this idea and not just short term long term to. like i have said above. all so need to remember those people thing the idea likes most dont live here and are only seen once or twice in the area.
...portsmouth has a better repouation than southampton for looking after locaL peoples needs..???
wheres the public access for boats at Gunwharf or Port Solent or elsewhere in Pompey?
Locals come first down there.????..so do you really believe that the Mary rose, Warrior, HMS Victory, spinakker tower, Gunwharf, etc are there just for locals?? Sothsea Fun Fair is another attraction which by your reasoning on another thread must brings in more revenue than the Ferries
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: the sun was the name of the pub. yes there was a slot for coins in the mine, it was for to help the up keep of the pier. they kept all there public hards and slipways in portmouth, only thing that they lost was the 1 public boat yard, that never got handed back after the war, but the other one was made larger, and was not far away from the other one. the difference between southampton and portmouth is any thing that was lost on the water front it was replace. maybe why portsmouth has a better reputation than southampton, for looking after local people needs, and boy that really gets my goat a bit, they realise that they are a working town/city, and more or less kept it that way. locals come first and tourist come second, where has here its the other way round, well in southampton case local's come last, unless your well off. think about it a bit more on this spot ben, where are they going to have more room, they are talking about a marina in side the wall, filled with boats that will be there most of the time, what are they going to do with those boats when the boat show is on moor them else where temp or put the pontoons on the outter wall where they be sticking out into the shipping channel, are they going to in fill some of it for new buildings. ect ect ect i can see loads of problems with this idea and not just short term long term to. like i have said above. all so need to remember those people thing the idea likes most dont live here and are only seen once or twice in the area. [/p][/quote]...portsmouth has a better repouation than southampton for looking after locaL peoples needs..??? wheres the public access for boats at Gunwharf or Port Solent or elsewhere in Pompey? Locals come first down there.????..so do you really believe that the Mary rose, Warrior, HMS Victory, spinakker tower, Gunwharf, etc are there just for locals?? Sothsea Fun Fair is another attraction which by your reasoning on another thread must brings in more revenue than the Ferries veracity
  • Score: 0

10:35pm Thu 17 Sep 09

southy says...

gunwharf or port solent there not a public hard or slipway or boat yard, and never has been has far i know, i i belive there is a private in those location that people can use. but the public hard and boat yard and slip way at longhorns way is still there, has is public slip way on eastern road, northend of london road slipway and public hard, and again on the other side of london road, there's 2 or 3 on tipner lane,
another near whale island, and the one in hard road that was turned back to the public after the war, and sure theres one down on the south east corner cumbrian road, i think i miss out a few to, they have more public hards, public boat yards and public slipways on protsmouth island, then we have on the whole of the tidal reaches on southampton waters and the rivers. better think again, and i know that all those public slipways, hard, boatyards are all still there, on southampton test side they have all gone, apart from the one public slipway but you have to argue to before you can use it. there use to be more public slipways plus boat yards, hards, there not one left now, and where have they all gone, docks tooks most of them and did not replace them, and a private marina,
gunwharf or port solent there not a public hard or slipway or boat yard, and never has been has far i know, i i belive there is a private in those location that people can use. but the public hard and boat yard and slip way at longhorns way is still there, has is public slip way on eastern road, northend of london road slipway and public hard, and again on the other side of london road, there's 2 or 3 on tipner lane, another near whale island, and the one in hard road that was turned back to the public after the war, and sure theres one down on the south east corner cumbrian road, i think i miss out a few to, they have more public hards, public boat yards and public slipways on protsmouth island, then we have on the whole of the tidal reaches on southampton waters and the rivers. better think again, and i know that all those public slipways, hard, boatyards are all still there, on southampton test side they have all gone, apart from the one public slipway but you have to argue to before you can use it. there use to be more public slipways plus boat yards, hards, there not one left now, and where have they all gone, docks tooks most of them and did not replace them, and a private marina, southy
  • Score: 0

8:27am Fri 18 Sep 09

Redback says...

Comparisons to Sydney are ridiculous.
.
None of it will ever happen of course. Cllr John Slade is absolutely spot on.
Comparisons to Sydney are ridiculous. . None of it will ever happen of course. Cllr John Slade is absolutely spot on. Redback
  • Score: 0

8:22pm Fri 18 Sep 09

Bowmore says...

Redback wrote:
Comparisons to Sydney are ridiculous.
.
None of it will ever happen of course. Cllr John Slade is absolutely spot on.
The same is true with the comparison with Capetown which is great but about 10 times larger than this scheme and is lively even on a wet Tuesday morning. Its Victoria and Alfred Docks in Capetown BTW not Victoria and Albert. I do hope this scheme does go ahead as it may just be the seed that starts to make Southampton waterfront a place worth visiting.
[quote][p][bold]Redback[/bold] wrote: Comparisons to Sydney are ridiculous. . None of it will ever happen of course. Cllr John Slade is absolutely spot on.[/p][/quote]The same is true with the comparison with Capetown which is great but about 10 times larger than this scheme and is lively even on a wet Tuesday morning. Its Victoria and Alfred Docks in Capetown BTW not Victoria and Albert. I do hope this scheme does go ahead as it may just be the seed that starts to make Southampton waterfront a place worth visiting. Bowmore
  • Score: 0

9:08pm Fri 18 Sep 09

southy says...

Bowmore wrote:
Redback wrote:
Comparisons to Sydney are ridiculous.
.
None of it will ever happen of course. Cllr John Slade is absolutely spot on.
The same is true with the comparison with Capetown which is great but about 10 times larger than this scheme and is lively even on a wet Tuesday morning. Its Victoria and Alfred Docks in Capetown BTW not Victoria and Albert. I do hope this scheme does go ahead as it may just be the seed that starts to make Southampton waterfront a place worth visiting.
what you dont relise cape town has a lot more water frontage than southampton, and the locals have lost 90% of it to private ownership on the river test, where has cape town still has a good 80% that is open, if we had the room for this sort of thing then there properly be no problem, but we dont.
[quote][p][bold]Bowmore[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Redback[/bold] wrote: Comparisons to Sydney are ridiculous. . None of it will ever happen of course. Cllr John Slade is absolutely spot on.[/p][/quote]The same is true with the comparison with Capetown which is great but about 10 times larger than this scheme and is lively even on a wet Tuesday morning. Its Victoria and Alfred Docks in Capetown BTW not Victoria and Albert. I do hope this scheme does go ahead as it may just be the seed that starts to make Southampton waterfront a place worth visiting. [/p][/quote]what you dont relise cape town has a lot more water frontage than southampton, and the locals have lost 90% of it to private ownership on the river test, where has cape town still has a good 80% that is open, if we had the room for this sort of thing then there properly be no problem, but we dont. southy
  • Score: 0

10:51pm Fri 18 Sep 09

Ben Doone says...

southy wrote:
gunwharf or port solent there not a public hard or slipway or boat yard, and never has been has far i know, i i belive there is a private in those location that people can use. but the public hard and boat yard and slip way at longhorns way is still there, has is public slip way on eastern road, northend of london road slipway and public hard, and again on the other side of london road, there's 2 or 3 on tipner lane, another near whale island, and the one in hard road that was turned back to the public after the war, and sure theres one down on the south east corner cumbrian road, i think i miss out a few to, they have more public hards, public boat yards and public slipways on protsmouth island, then we have on the whole of the tidal reaches on southampton waters and the rivers. better think again, and i know that all those public slipways, hard, boatyards are all still there, on southampton test side they have all gone, apart from the one public slipway but you have to argue to before you can use it. there use to be more public slipways plus boat yards, hards, there not one left now, and where have they all gone, docks tooks most of them and did not replace them, and a private marina,
According to the Soton City Council Local Plan CLT 10 there are 8 public slipways in Soton ie
Itchen Ferry,
Crosshouse,
Weston Shore,
Priory,
Mayflower Park,
Old Mill Quay,
Belvedere
Woodmill.
Seems rather reasonable to me
Which public hards have been lost to the Docks in recent times? Only one I can recollect is Platform Quay which was lost when the Town Quay Marina was built
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: gunwharf or port solent there not a public hard or slipway or boat yard, and never has been has far i know, i i belive there is a private in those location that people can use. but the public hard and boat yard and slip way at longhorns way is still there, has is public slip way on eastern road, northend of london road slipway and public hard, and again on the other side of london road, there's 2 or 3 on tipner lane, another near whale island, and the one in hard road that was turned back to the public after the war, and sure theres one down on the south east corner cumbrian road, i think i miss out a few to, they have more public hards, public boat yards and public slipways on protsmouth island, then we have on the whole of the tidal reaches on southampton waters and the rivers. better think again, and i know that all those public slipways, hard, boatyards are all still there, on southampton test side they have all gone, apart from the one public slipway but you have to argue to before you can use it. there use to be more public slipways plus boat yards, hards, there not one left now, and where have they all gone, docks tooks most of them and did not replace them, and a private marina, [/p][/quote]According to the Soton City Council Local Plan CLT 10 there are 8 public slipways in Soton ie Itchen Ferry, Crosshouse, Weston Shore, Priory, Mayflower Park, Old Mill Quay, Belvedere Woodmill. Seems rather reasonable to me Which public hards have been lost to the Docks in recent times? Only one I can recollect is Platform Quay which was lost when the Town Quay Marina was built Ben Doone
  • Score: 0

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