Hundreds of entries for memorial but there can only be one winner

Daily Echo: The last six spitfire memorial designs on the table The last six spitfire memorial designs on the table

Here they are – the final six entries.

They have ranged from a child’s drawing on the back of an envelope to individuals from all over Europe.

But Southampton finally has its top six designs as the quest to bring a Spitfire memorial to the city’s docks moved a step closer.

A panel of judges whittled down the 315 entries that were submitted in just three weeks and have been on display at Southampton’s Solent Sky Museum.

CLICK HERE TO VIEW ALL THE ENTRIES

The winning entry for the 180ft statue will be at the entrance to the city’s waterfront.

Alan Jones, director of the museum, said: “The interest has been enormous, the phone hasn’t stopped with calls from people saying how’s it going, have you had my design, which has proved there is an insatiable appetite for the Spitfire.”

The judging panel included Mark Spearing, head of the School of Engineering Sciences at Southampton University, Councillor John Hannides and the Daily Echo editor Ian Murray.

They scrutinised each one for its artistic merit, but also structural feasibility.

The winner will be selected in six to eight weeks and the landmark should be in place by the end of 2011, in line with the 75th anniversary of the Spitfire’s maiden flight at Eastleigh.

It will sit on land beside the Trafalgar dry dock alongside the state-of-the-art £19m Ocean Terminal, only two miles from the Supermarine Aviation site where RJ Mitchell developed the aircraft.

No taxpayers’ money is being spent on the scheme so the £2m needed will be raised by the Spitfire Tribute Foundation.

It comes as ceremonies across the country this weekend mark the 70th anniversary of the Battle of Britain, in which Southampton’s Supermarine Spitfire became a symbol.

CLICK BELOW TO VIEW EACH ENTRY

The Daily Echo has backed a long-running campaign to honour those who built and flew the plane.

Councillor Hannides, chairman of the Spitfire Tribute Foundation, said: “Clearly the Spitfire does hold a special place in people’s hearts and for many people it’s also a source of inspiration.

“It’s a recognition of the Spitfire both in terms of its engineering innovation and in securing the freedom of the country.”

Mr Jones added: “When you think of all the public art in the country how often does the public say how it will look.

“We have had designs by children on the back of an envelope to professional graphic artists.”

All designs will continue to be displayed at the museum for a month.

Comments (67)

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9:26am Sun 19 Sep 10

Brite Spark says...

All of the designs are very good indeed, I tried to choose a favourite but each one looks tremendous. Therefore there can be only one answer, build them all, let's have a squadron of Spitfires on our waterfront! Tally Ho!
All of the designs are very good indeed, I tried to choose a favourite but each one looks tremendous. Therefore there can be only one answer, build them all, let's have a squadron of Spitfires on our waterfront! Tally Ho! Brite Spark

9:40am Sun 19 Sep 10

franiow says...

Like number 6 and number 1. There has to be a lightness to the design. Some were rather heavy. Pity number 6 mispelt roll in Victory Roll. Still he's a designer not a speller.
Like number 6 and number 1. There has to be a lightness to the design. Some were rather heavy. Pity number 6 mispelt roll in Victory Roll. Still he's a designer not a speller. franiow

9:53am Sun 19 Sep 10

Brite Spark says...

It's a play on words franiow
It's a play on words franiow Brite Spark

10:07am Sun 19 Sep 10

southy says...

still will not equal the spinnaker tower, but they do look good like the number 2
still will not equal the spinnaker tower, but they do look good like the number 2 southy

10:15am Sun 19 Sep 10

Lone Ranger says...

Doesn't this go to show that if you want some great designs do we really need for expensive architectural monstrosities.
.
Put it out to the public for the pier and Mayflower park designs and anything else that could do with the the publics input.
.
Let the people decide.
Doesn't this go to show that if you want some great designs do we really need for expensive architectural monstrosities. . Put it out to the public for the pier and Mayflower park designs and anything else that could do with the the publics input. . Let the people decide. Lone Ranger

10:36am Sun 19 Sep 10

Stillness says...

southy wrote:
still will not equal the spinnaker tower, but they do look good like the number 2
You missed out the "In my opinion" part. Oh and planes are not meant to resemble towers so how can you compare the two?
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: still will not equal the spinnaker tower, but they do look good like the number 2[/p][/quote]You missed out the "In my opinion" part. Oh and planes are not meant to resemble towers so how can you compare the two? Stillness

10:46am Sun 19 Sep 10

derek james says...

i like them all but i suspect the supporting structure (the twirly bits) will not be quite so elegant once the structural engineer has got involved taking into account windloads, deadweight etc.incidentally i thought of a design along the lines of the angel of the north with mitchell's face on it and a pair of spitfire wings on it's back, what might have been----
i like them all but i suspect the supporting structure (the twirly bits) will not be quite so elegant once the structural engineer has got involved taking into account windloads, deadweight etc.incidentally i thought of a design along the lines of the angel of the north with mitchell's face on it and a pair of spitfire wings on it's back, what might have been---- derek james

10:59am Sun 19 Sep 10

southy says...

Stillness wrote:
southy wrote:
still will not equal the spinnaker tower, but they do look good like the number 2
You missed out the "In my opinion" part. Oh and planes are not meant to resemble towers so how can you compare the two?
easy it want the council wants that wow factor, and this is what the spitfire design is meant to be a wow factor.
but keep thinking you get there one day.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: still will not equal the spinnaker tower, but they do look good like the number 2[/p][/quote]You missed out the "In my opinion" part. Oh and planes are not meant to resemble towers so how can you compare the two?[/p][/quote]easy it want the council wants that wow factor, and this is what the spitfire design is meant to be a wow factor. but keep thinking you get there one day. southy

11:56am Sun 19 Sep 10

Duncan Disorderly says...

No.6, I think
No.6, I think Duncan Disorderly

12:32pm Sun 19 Sep 10

freemantlegirl2 says...

I'm torn between no.1 and no.6 too. They are all magnificent though. Would really like to see this come to fruition ....
I'm torn between no.1 and no.6 too. They are all magnificent though. Would really like to see this come to fruition .... freemantlegirl2

12:35pm Sun 19 Sep 10

Brite Spark says...

freemantlegirl2 wrote:
I'm torn between no.1 and no.6 too. They are all magnificent though. Would really like to see this come to fruition ....
It's not 'Blind Date' you know!
Leave these sort of debates to us men!
[quote][p][bold]freemantlegirl2[/bold] wrote: I'm torn between no.1 and no.6 too. They are all magnificent though. Would really like to see this come to fruition ....[/p][/quote]It's not 'Blind Date' you know! Leave these sort of debates to us men! Brite Spark

12:37pm Sun 19 Sep 10

freemantlegirl2 says...

Brite Spark wrote:
freemantlegirl2 wrote:
I'm torn between no.1 and no.6 too. They are all magnificent though. Would really like to see this come to fruition ....
It's not 'Blind Date' you know!
Leave these sort of debates to us men!
pmsl! is that an 'offer'? :p
[quote][p][bold]Brite Spark[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freemantlegirl2[/bold] wrote: I'm torn between no.1 and no.6 too. They are all magnificent though. Would really like to see this come to fruition ....[/p][/quote]It's not 'Blind Date' you know! Leave these sort of debates to us men![/p][/quote]pmsl! is that an 'offer'? :p freemantlegirl2

1:12pm Sun 19 Sep 10

EM27, says...

Forget the spitfire, I say we have a statue of Cameron on his hands and knees acting as a footrest for Southy, who is stood with one foot on Camerons back.
With his arms raised above his cloth capped head Southy hold a hammer in one hand a sickle in the other.
It should be placed in Mayflower Park with the words "This is a local park for local people" on a large plaque at the foot. It should be twice the height of the spannaker tower.
Forget the spitfire, I say we have a statue of Cameron on his hands and knees acting as a footrest for Southy, who is stood with one foot on Camerons back. With his arms raised above his cloth capped head Southy hold a hammer in one hand a sickle in the other. It should be placed in Mayflower Park with the words "This is a local park for local people" on a large plaque at the foot. It should be twice the height of the spannaker tower. EM27,

1:28pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all.

Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile.

This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more.

Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers.

And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory?

I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that?

Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead.

Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination!
How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination! SpittingFire

1:39pm Sun 19 Sep 10

EM27, says...

SpittingFire wrote:
How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination!
I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist.

Nobody likes a sore loser.
[quote][p][bold]SpittingFire[/bold] wrote: How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination![/p][/quote]I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist. Nobody likes a sore loser. EM27,

1:42pm Sun 19 Sep 10

Brite Spark says...

EM27, wrote:
SpittingFire wrote:
How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination!
I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist.

Nobody likes a sore loser.
Lol!

I agree with your Mayflower Park proposal so let Spitting Fire design 'Southy's Column' instead, he's probably got some crayons left over.
[quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpittingFire[/bold] wrote: How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination![/p][/quote]I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist. Nobody likes a sore loser.[/p][/quote]Lol! I agree with your Mayflower Park proposal so let Spitting Fire design 'Southy's Column' instead, he's probably got some crayons left over. Brite Spark

1:44pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

EM27, wrote:
SpittingFire wrote:
How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination!
I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist.

Nobody likes a sore loser.
Come on now. Have you not seen it in the paper? Surely you see how biased this is.
[quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpittingFire[/bold] wrote: How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination![/p][/quote]I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist. Nobody likes a sore loser.[/p][/quote]Come on now. Have you not seen it in the paper? Surely you see how biased this is. SpittingFire

1:53pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

Brite Spark wrote:
EM27, wrote:
SpittingFire wrote:
How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination!
I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist.

Nobody likes a sore loser.
Lol!

I agree with your Mayflower Park proposal so let Spitting Fire design 'Southy's Column' instead, he's probably got some crayons left over.
LOL indeed. I, (he)/(she) have them sharpened and ready to go.
[quote][p][bold]Brite Spark[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpittingFire[/bold] wrote: How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination![/p][/quote]I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist. Nobody likes a sore loser.[/p][/quote]Lol! I agree with your Mayflower Park proposal so let Spitting Fire design 'Southy's Column' instead, he's probably got some crayons left over.[/p][/quote]LOL indeed. I, (he)/(she) have them sharpened and ready to go. SpittingFire

2:06pm Sun 19 Sep 10

EM27, says...

SpittingFire wrote:
Brite Spark wrote:
EM27, wrote:
SpittingFire wrote: How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination!
I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist. Nobody likes a sore loser.
Lol! I agree with your Mayflower Park proposal so let Spitting Fire design 'Southy's Column' instead, he's probably got some crayons left over.
LOL indeed. I, (he)/(she) have them sharpened and ready to go.
Make sure you have the Magna Carta and domesday book somewhere in there.
[quote][p][bold]SpittingFire[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Brite Spark[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpittingFire[/bold] wrote: How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination![/p][/quote]I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist. Nobody likes a sore loser.[/p][/quote]Lol! I agree with your Mayflower Park proposal so let Spitting Fire design 'Southy's Column' instead, he's probably got some crayons left over.[/p][/quote]LOL indeed. I, (he)/(she) have them sharpened and ready to go.[/p][/quote]Make sure you have the Magna Carta and domesday book somewhere in there. EM27,

2:10pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

EM27, wrote:
SpittingFire wrote:
Brite Spark wrote:
EM27, wrote:
SpittingFire wrote: How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination!
I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist. Nobody likes a sore loser.
Lol! I agree with your Mayflower Park proposal so let Spitting Fire design 'Southy's Column' instead, he's probably got some crayons left over.
LOL indeed. I, (he)/(she) have them sharpened and ready to go.
Make sure you have the Magna Carta and domesday book somewhere in there.
Rather, perhaps we should all take a look at CR Russell's books on his time at Supermarine and ask ourselves what would be a more fitting tribute to him?
[quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpittingFire[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Brite Spark[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpittingFire[/bold] wrote: How disappointing to see this biased short-list of entries that are all computer generated images by mostly either graphic artists or architectural consultants. With these results, this should not have been an open competition for the general public but a competition for the design and architectural industries, how would the general public have a have a real chance when obviously the Spitfire Tribute Foundation lack the imagination to seriously consider so many of the hand drawn entries by the general pubic over those professionals and their already easily "envisioned" CAD images. Perhaps these members of the Foundation aren't the best and fairest judges to choose a design for the Spitfire memorial after all. Furthermore, the resulting short-list is yet again a mixture of previously considered ideas. Draper's, a variation of the Daily Echo's "Spitfire Angel of the South" meets The Castle Bromwich Sentinel sculpture. Rist has done another design imitating one Daily Echo reader David Lee that was published on Fri 21st December 2007 but with a larger plane and smaller trail. Two similar coiled spring “zebedee” designs in Witts and and elongated one in Lucas's depiction, and slap in a few old photographs of Mitchell and the workers in the factory round the bottom as a “nod” to the Spitfire's link with Southampton, that'll swing it(!). A delightful tangled mess of cable loom wires from Charles Knowles Architects, and another rendition of Ken Potts Mesh plane design from James Burnell, but without the mesh and an in-flight profile. This mundane short-list has shown that the competition was simply a ploy to get some professionals to design a monument for the second time for them for free. Only there is nothing new and original in these selected designs, nothing like many of those refreshing and spirited entries from the general public. The same narrow, stale, conventional minds choosing what they consider “is best” by selecting their bland considerations all over again, in "easy-to-see what it'll look like in real life" pictures. And yet, by choosing the same old designs once more. Is making the monument plane larger than the original aircraft really a fitting tribute to RJ Mitchell's design? Does Mitchell really deserve to have his aircraft replicating the size of the Lancaster in it's wingspan of 102ft comparable to the Spitfire's 36ft? Can bloating the aircraft up really possibly reflect the nimble, quick witted machine and its heroism in battle? No, but rather we shall see a heavy cumbersome monster supported by a varying array of winding tentacles, (tentacle design depending on the winning entry of course), looming over the docks and to only be seen for the hilarity of the cruise ship passangers. And apart from slapping a few photos round the bottom will there ever really be a symbolic fitting tribute to those in Southampton and built it and those that lost their lives in the efforts to make the fighting machine at the Woolston factory? I for one have lost all faith in this project now. And in a time of austerity no one will have the money to give anyway so it should not be rushed ahead. What sort of tribute is that? Why make a rush of this project now after years of debate to try and get it done for the 75th test flight anniversary. With these results it would be better to re-think and ask the people of Southampton what they want and actually listen this time. Perhaps we all select something better in time for the 80th Anniversary instead. Come on Spitfire Tribute Foundation, you're failing us. Use your imagination![/p][/quote]I'm guessing your hand drawn proposal didn't make the shortlist. Nobody likes a sore loser.[/p][/quote]Lol! I agree with your Mayflower Park proposal so let Spitting Fire design 'Southy's Column' instead, he's probably got some crayons left over.[/p][/quote]LOL indeed. I, (he)/(she) have them sharpened and ready to go.[/p][/quote]Make sure you have the Magna Carta and domesday book somewhere in there.[/p][/quote]Rather, perhaps we should all take a look at CR Russell's books on his time at Supermarine and ask ourselves what would be a more fitting tribute to him? SpittingFire

2:24pm Sun 19 Sep 10

EM27, says...

What someone's written books on Southy's time at Supermarine?

Anyway why consult a book, ask the man himself.
What someone's written books on Southy's time at Supermarine? Anyway why consult a book, ask the man himself. EM27,

2:38pm Sun 19 Sep 10

soton1980 says...

This is proof that the council need not waste money on some useless architects, who inevitably come up with a design which nobody likes (e.g. the new Maritime/Titanic museum). If people were encouraged to submit designs for monuments/buildings and residents then allowed to vote, it would make people feel as though they were making a genuine contribution towards improving the city. This would also help end the disillusionment brought about by the numerous ill-thought out and badly designed devlopments we currently have.
This is proof that the council need not waste money on some useless architects, who inevitably come up with a design which nobody likes (e.g. the new Maritime/Titanic museum). If people were encouraged to submit designs for monuments/buildings and residents then allowed to vote, it would make people feel as though they were making a genuine contribution towards improving the city. This would also help end the disillusionment brought about by the numerous ill-thought out and badly designed devlopments we currently have. soton1980

2:53pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

What a shame we aren't involved in more in-depth conversation here on an important monument to truly commemorate those workers of our city that made the Spitfire instead a re-hash of ideas. Add to that the fact that these entries (aside from Burnell who's entry is still computer generated) are all CAD images produced by Specialists.

It's all so easy to make jibes and presumptions on myself and my argument. Perhaps one of you would like to make a more eloquent entry in the case for these shortlisted entries in contrast, instead of just attempting dig at me and mine.
What a shame we aren't involved in more in-depth conversation here on an important monument to truly commemorate those workers of our city that made the Spitfire instead a re-hash of ideas. Add to that the fact that these entries (aside from Burnell who's entry is still computer generated) are all CAD images produced by Specialists. It's all so easy to make jibes and presumptions on myself and my argument. Perhaps one of you would like to make a more eloquent entry in the case for these shortlisted entries in contrast, instead of just attempting dig at me and mine. SpittingFire

3:01pm Sun 19 Sep 10

EM27, says...

People are, and on the whole seem happy with the choices, except you of course.

Perhaps you are being mocked because there is nothing else to do with you.

Your submission wasn't deemed worthy, perhaps the judges misses it, or maybe, just maybe, your idea wasn't good enough, either way, the majority of posters seem happy enough with what's on offer.

Specialists are used for a reason.

Get over it.
People are, and on the whole seem happy with the choices, except you of course. Perhaps you are being mocked because there is nothing else to do with you. Your submission wasn't deemed worthy, perhaps the judges misses it, or maybe, just maybe, your idea wasn't good enough, either way, the majority of posters seem happy enough with what's on offer. Specialists are used for a reason. Get over it. EM27,

3:05pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

soton1980 wrote:
This is proof that the council need not waste money on some useless architects, who inevitably come up with a design which nobody likes (e.g. the new Maritime/Titanic museum). If people were encouraged to submit designs for monuments/buildings and residents then allowed to vote, it would make people feel as though they were making a genuine contribution towards improving the city. This would also help end the disillusionment brought about by the numerous ill-thought out and badly designed devlopments we currently have.
HERE HERE Soton1980! Well put that the Southampton residents should have a proper say in the monument. There was not even one local entry on the short-list, despite what I imagine many local people entering to have the chance to put their own idea into the forefront. Instead the Foundation have rejected them and again chosen their preconceived ideas on how our monument should look. We've not even had a say on its appropriate location where the local people can really appreciate it. Let the public decide on all the entries!
[quote][p][bold]soton1980[/bold] wrote: This is proof that the council need not waste money on some useless architects, who inevitably come up with a design which nobody likes (e.g. the new Maritime/Titanic museum). If people were encouraged to submit designs for monuments/buildings and residents then allowed to vote, it would make people feel as though they were making a genuine contribution towards improving the city. This would also help end the disillusionment brought about by the numerous ill-thought out and badly designed devlopments we currently have.[/p][/quote]HERE HERE Soton1980! Well put that the Southampton residents should have a proper say in the monument. There was not even one local entry on the short-list, despite what I imagine many local people entering to have the chance to put their own idea into the forefront. Instead the Foundation have rejected them and again chosen their preconceived ideas on how our monument should look. We've not even had a say on its appropriate location where the local people can really appreciate it. Let the public decide on all the entries! SpittingFire

3:06pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

EM27, wrote:
People are, and on the whole seem happy with the choices, except you of course.

Perhaps you are being mocked because there is nothing else to do with you.

Your submission wasn't deemed worthy, perhaps the judges misses it, or maybe, just maybe, your idea wasn't good enough, either way, the majority of posters seem happy enough with what's on offer.

Specialists are used for a reason.

Get over it.
Oh dear. There you go with your presumptions again EM27. Are you really sure that I made a submission to the competition?
[quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: People are, and on the whole seem happy with the choices, except you of course. Perhaps you are being mocked because there is nothing else to do with you. Your submission wasn't deemed worthy, perhaps the judges misses it, or maybe, just maybe, your idea wasn't good enough, either way, the majority of posters seem happy enough with what's on offer. Specialists are used for a reason. Get over it.[/p][/quote]Oh dear. There you go with your presumptions again EM27. Are you really sure that I made a submission to the competition? SpittingFire

3:19pm Sun 19 Sep 10

EM27, says...

I make my assumptions because I haven't noticed you post before, and on top of that your original post did go on a bit for someone with only a passing interest in the subject. You then went on and on about how certain criteria didn't seem to get a look in.

On the subject of proposals???? You wonder why nobody engaged with your suggestions. All go and read a book before voting, what everyone in the city? Hey we can even have polling booths set up around town and a postal vote. Is there going to be an age limit?

You are funny.
I make my assumptions because I haven't noticed you post before, and on top of that your original post did go on a bit for someone with only a passing interest in the subject. You then went on and on about how certain criteria didn't seem to get a look in. On the subject of proposals???? You wonder why nobody engaged with your suggestions. All go and read a book before voting, what everyone in the city? Hey we can even have polling booths set up around town and a postal vote. Is there going to be an age limit? You are funny. EM27,

3:20pm Sun 19 Sep 10

EM27, says...

Will prisoners get the vote?
Will prisoners get the vote? EM27,

3:37pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

EM27, wrote:
I make my assumptions because I haven't noticed you post before, and on top of that your original post did go on a bit for someone with only a passing interest in the subject. You then went on and on about how certain criteria didn't seem to get a look in.

On the subject of proposals???? You wonder why nobody engaged with your suggestions. All go and read a book before voting, what everyone in the city? Hey we can even have polling booths set up around town and a postal vote. Is there going to be an age limit?

You are funny.
Extraordinary suggestions there EM27. I like the idea of polling booths, very good(!) Try and get this into context. I'm glad you find me so amusing so let me give you some more assumptions to chew over... Well, my presence here today? Perhaps I may have thought it time to voice my own concerns after seeing the next set of similar proposals by the Foundation. Come on! Witts and Lucas! Don't tell me they are exactly the same design, even down to the roundel at the bottom! Why choose two the same! Or maybe, perhaps I am disappointed in the heavy corporate presence on the Foundation, who are they? why have they waded in on this project? Do they really know what's best? After failed attempt number one? What about getting the Spitfire Society involved? What about the old Gents in this town that have lived through it all, that worked at Supermarine? And, yeah they can drag Liz Smith off her chair in the SCC pubic art office and let her eye them over but at the end of the day these proposals are the same as before. Why was this an Open competition only to select a load of professionals? They should have just stuck with poor old Ken Potts meshy mash up. The public deserve more of a say than this. Shame you are so passive and accepting EM27.
[quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: I make my assumptions because I haven't noticed you post before, and on top of that your original post did go on a bit for someone with only a passing interest in the subject. You then went on and on about how certain criteria didn't seem to get a look in. On the subject of proposals???? You wonder why nobody engaged with your suggestions. All go and read a book before voting, what everyone in the city? Hey we can even have polling booths set up around town and a postal vote. Is there going to be an age limit? You are funny.[/p][/quote]Extraordinary suggestions there EM27. I like the idea of polling booths, very good(!) Try and get this into context. I'm glad you find me so amusing so let me give you some more assumptions to chew over... Well, my presence here today? Perhaps I may have thought it time to voice my own concerns after seeing the next set of similar proposals by the Foundation. Come on! Witts and Lucas! Don't tell me they are exactly the same design, even down to the roundel at the bottom! Why choose two the same! Or maybe, perhaps I am disappointed in the heavy corporate presence on the Foundation, who are they? why have they waded in on this project? Do they really know what's best? After failed attempt number one? What about getting the Spitfire Society involved? What about the old Gents in this town that have lived through it all, that worked at Supermarine? And, yeah they can drag Liz Smith off her chair in the SCC pubic art office and let her eye them over but at the end of the day these proposals are the same as before. Why was this an Open competition only to select a load of professionals? They should have just stuck with poor old Ken Potts meshy mash up. The public deserve more of a say than this. Shame you are so passive and accepting EM27. SpittingFire

3:46pm Sun 19 Sep 10

loulay says...

With regards to the monument, as my Father built them at Woolston and is no longer with us I would like to comment on them. No 1 Not bad, No 2 Too squiggly, No 3 Rather bland, No 4 A good design but I do'nt like the concept of the plane being inverted, No 5 Gives the impression it's on fire and trailing smoke, No 6 Jonathan Lucas gets my vote, represents the Spitfire totally.
With regards to the monument, as my Father built them at Woolston and is no longer with us I would like to comment on them. No 1 Not bad, No 2 Too squiggly, No 3 Rather bland, No 4 A good design but I do'nt like the concept of the plane being inverted, No 5 Gives the impression it's on fire and trailing smoke, No 6 Jonathan Lucas gets my vote, represents the Spitfire totally. loulay

3:47pm Sun 19 Sep 10

Brite Spark says...

I used to make these sort of constructions. However much I tried not to, the pilot would always end up glued to the window instead of his seat.
I used to make these sort of constructions. However much I tried not to, the pilot would always end up glued to the window instead of his seat. Brite Spark

3:50pm Sun 19 Sep 10

EM27, says...

Passive and accepting? Me? I put forward a proposal completely different to these if you read my posts.

I find it funny that you are wetting your pants so much over this.
What will be will be.

There are more pressing issues and better things that money can be spent on rather than vanity projects that in all honesty is hardly going to be a world wide talking point, (unlike my proposal which would be competition to the Statue of Liberty).
No use the money more wisely.
Passive and accepting? Me? I put forward a proposal completely different to these if you read my posts. I find it funny that you are wetting your pants so much over this. What will be will be. There are more pressing issues and better things that money can be spent on rather than vanity projects that in all honesty is hardly going to be a world wide talking point, (unlike my proposal which would be competition to the Statue of Liberty). No use the money more wisely. EM27,

4:00pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

EM27, wrote:
Passive and accepting? Me? I put forward a proposal completely different to these if you read my posts.

I find it funny that you are wetting your pants so much over this.
What will be will be.

There are more pressing issues and better things that money can be spent on rather than vanity projects that in all honesty is hardly going to be a world wide talking point, (unlike my proposal which would be competition to the Statue of Liberty).
No use the money more wisely.
Oh dear. How interesting it is to see that you have returned to your earlier jibes against me again EM27. What a shame you aren't putting forward a more in-depth thought-out conversation against my argument and have rather instead resorted yet again to try to pick on me. Such childish remarks there. Try not to feel to embarrassed about it though. And I'm sorry to hear your design was not chosen, I would have like to have seen your interpretation and perhaps I would have greatly approved of your design.
[quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: Passive and accepting? Me? I put forward a proposal completely different to these if you read my posts. I find it funny that you are wetting your pants so much over this. What will be will be. There are more pressing issues and better things that money can be spent on rather than vanity projects that in all honesty is hardly going to be a world wide talking point, (unlike my proposal which would be competition to the Statue of Liberty). No use the money more wisely.[/p][/quote]Oh dear. How interesting it is to see that you have returned to your earlier jibes against me again EM27. What a shame you aren't putting forward a more in-depth thought-out conversation against my argument and have rather instead resorted yet again to try to pick on me. Such childish remarks there. Try not to feel to embarrassed about it though. And I'm sorry to hear your design was not chosen, I would have like to have seen your interpretation and perhaps I would have greatly approved of your design. SpittingFire

6:30pm Sun 19 Sep 10

freefinker says...

Well said EM27.
Having taken the trouble to read this voluminous exchange I couldn't agree more with your views on the subject.
Well said EM27. Having taken the trouble to read this voluminous exchange I couldn't agree more with your views on the subject. freefinker

6:35pm Sun 19 Sep 10

Stillness says...

God is black.....and a woman. Have I lost the plot? I pope not.
God is black.....and a woman. Have I lost the plot? I pope not. Stillness

6:36pm Sun 19 Sep 10

freefinker says...

SpittingFire, black, kettle and pot springs to mind.
SpittingFire, black, kettle and pot springs to mind. freefinker

6:42pm Sun 19 Sep 10

EM27, says...

If you can understand that so easily how come you couldn't understand it when earlier I explained my position on your proposals.

Quite how this all reinforces your points I shall never know as your points and ideas shapeshift in your mind, morphing from one thing to another, from religeon to childrens artwork in the blink of an eye, not forgeting everyone reading books and a city wide vote.

You're not Southy's wife are you?
If you can understand that so easily how come you couldn't understand it when earlier I explained my position on your proposals. Quite how this all reinforces your points I shall never know as your points and ideas shapeshift in your mind, morphing from one thing to another, from religeon to childrens artwork in the blink of an eye, not forgeting everyone reading books and a city wide vote. You're not Southy's wife are you? EM27,

6:48pm Sun 19 Sep 10

Stillness says...

EM27, wrote:
If you can understand that so easily how come you couldn't understand it when earlier I explained my position on your proposals.

Quite how this all reinforces your points I shall never know as your points and ideas shapeshift in your mind, morphing from one thing to another, from religeon to childrens artwork in the blink of an eye, not forgeting everyone reading books and a city wide vote.

You're not Southy's wife are you?
southy doesn’t have a wife as women are always right, and he only likes the left.
[quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: If you can understand that so easily how come you couldn't understand it when earlier I explained my position on your proposals. Quite how this all reinforces your points I shall never know as your points and ideas shapeshift in your mind, morphing from one thing to another, from religeon to childrens artwork in the blink of an eye, not forgeting everyone reading books and a city wide vote. You're not Southy's wife are you?[/p][/quote]southy doesn’t have a wife as women are always right, and he only likes the left. Stillness

7:07pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

Apart from freemantlegirl2 who is providing me with interesting contradictions to my argument, which I was looking for and I appreciate. The rest of these individuals have now totally gone off topic once more. I hope the admin team will tidy this all up tomorrow so that others can post their views on the Spitfire short-list. Instead of me just being ganged up upon and my contributions more vehemently ridiculed.
Apart from freemantlegirl2 who is providing me with interesting contradictions to my argument, which I was looking for and I appreciate. The rest of these individuals have now totally gone off topic once more. I hope the admin team will tidy this all up tomorrow so that others can post their views on the Spitfire short-list. Instead of me just being ganged up upon and my contributions more vehemently ridiculed. SpittingFire

7:13pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

Freemantlegirl2 - Thank you for your response and your notes on the silliness of some contributors on here. As your remark on a building? I didn't mention anything about a building as a tribute. It's my hope that after another lot of similar looking entries on the short-list to those previously thought of over these last few years, perhaps it's time that the public had more of a say in how their monument should look rather than exclusively the Foundation.
Freemantlegirl2 - Thank you for your response and your notes on the silliness of some contributors on here. As your remark on a building? I didn't mention anything about a building as a tribute. It's my hope that after another lot of similar looking entries on the short-list to those previously thought of over these last few years, perhaps it's time that the public had more of a say in how their monument should look rather than exclusively the Foundation. SpittingFire

7:25pm Sun 19 Sep 10

Stillness says...

SpittingFire wrote:
Freemantlegirl2 - Thank you for your response and your notes on the silliness of some contributors on here. As your remark on a building? I didn't mention anything about a building as a tribute. It's my hope that after another lot of similar looking entries on the short-list to those previously thought of over these last few years, perhaps it's time that the public had more of a say in how their monument should look rather than exclusively the Foundation.
Anyone still awake?..............
....No? Nore me.
[quote][p][bold]SpittingFire[/bold] wrote: Freemantlegirl2 - Thank you for your response and your notes on the silliness of some contributors on here. As your remark on a building? I didn't mention anything about a building as a tribute. It's my hope that after another lot of similar looking entries on the short-list to those previously thought of over these last few years, perhaps it's time that the public had more of a say in how their monument should look rather than exclusively the Foundation.[/p][/quote]Anyone still awake?.............. ....No? Nore me. Stillness

7:33pm Sun 19 Sep 10

BombDog says...

Ignoring the hot air spouted above for a moment (worthy of filling a Zeppelin), it may be worth considering that a graphic artist or architect may also have the passion for the Spitfire just like any other individual – and they have a role to play.

I'm sure if this was a competition to compile the best set of report & accounts that the winner would be very unlikely to be a professional creative.

There is no monetary gain from this competition. It takes time to develop a visual concept that communicates what is intended, and very often the returns are directly proportionate to the amount of effort invested. Most likely (hopefully, at least) the shortlisted submitters are working people and they will have dedicated valuable time to the cause of producing spirited works of art – however they are perceived subjectively.

There was little site or structural information available to entrants, not much time and a relatively prescriptive brief (aircraft in flight; size, etc.) so designs may be somewhat similar. If anyone else felt they could do better than those who submitted then perhaps they should have taken their chance to show them how it should be done?

As far as computer generated imagery is concerned it's time to realise that true creativity comes from man not mouse. A computer is a tool and is wielded accordingly – a design arises in spite of technology, not because of it. It would be churlish to suggest that these artworks have been produced by simply 'the click of a button'. If so, would not everyone's entries have reached this stage? I dare say that those who use a computer may wish yo draw beautifully and vice-versa. .

One final thought: if this organisation has to raise £2m from private investors then the final candidate will need to do justice to their investment, as well as represent the views of the locality, or even the nation. An opinion poll would be interesting I agree, but decisions of this nature may best be left ultimately to those who can clearly gauge the feasibility of such an installation.
Ignoring the hot air spouted above for a moment (worthy of filling a Zeppelin), it may be worth considering that a graphic artist or architect may also have the passion for the Spitfire just like any other individual – and they have a role to play. I'm sure if this was a competition to compile the best set of report & accounts that the winner would be very unlikely to be a professional creative. There is no monetary gain from this competition. It takes time to develop a visual concept that communicates what is intended, and very often the returns are directly proportionate to the amount of effort invested. Most likely (hopefully, at least) the shortlisted submitters are working people and they will have dedicated valuable time to the cause of producing spirited works of art – however they are perceived subjectively. There was little site or structural information available to entrants, not much time and a relatively prescriptive brief (aircraft in flight; size, etc.) so designs may be somewhat similar. If anyone else felt they could do better than those who submitted then perhaps they should have taken their chance to show them how it should be done? As far as computer generated imagery is concerned it's time to realise that true creativity comes from man not mouse. A computer is a tool and is wielded accordingly – a design arises in spite of technology, not because of it. It would be churlish to suggest that these artworks have been produced by simply 'the click of a button'. If so, would not everyone's entries have reached this stage? I dare say that those who use a computer may wish yo draw beautifully and vice-versa. [C'est la vie.; horses for courses, etc. – insert your own cliché here]. One final thought: if this organisation has to raise £2m from private investors then the final candidate will need to do justice to their investment, as well as represent the views of the locality, or even the nation. An opinion poll would be interesting I agree, but decisions of this nature may best be left ultimately to those who can clearly gauge the feasibility of such an installation. BombDog

7:41pm Sun 19 Sep 10

Cult Hero says...

Number 2 the best? Don't understand the location though? Surely only cruise passengers will get to see it? No access to the docks surely?
Number 2 the best? Don't understand the location though? Surely only cruise passengers will get to see it? No access to the docks surely? Cult Hero

7:53pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

BombDog wrote:
Ignoring the hot air spouted above for a moment (worthy of filling a Zeppelin), it may be worth considering that a graphic artist or architect may also have the passion for the Spitfire just like any other individual – and they have a role to play.

I'm sure if this was a competition to compile the best set of report & accounts that the winner would be very unlikely to be a professional creative.

There is no monetary gain from this competition. It takes time to develop a visual concept that communicates what is intended, and very often the returns are directly proportionate to the amount of effort invested. Most likely (hopefully, at least) the shortlisted submitters are working people and they will have dedicated valuable time to the cause of producing spirited works of art – however they are perceived subjectively.

There was little site or structural information available to entrants, not much time and a relatively prescriptive brief (aircraft in flight; size, etc.) so designs may be somewhat similar. If anyone else felt they could do better than those who submitted then perhaps they should have taken their chance to show them how it should be done?

As far as computer generated imagery is concerned it's time to realise that true creativity comes from man not mouse. A computer is a tool and is wielded accordingly – a design arises in spite of technology, not because of it. It would be churlish to suggest that these artworks have been produced by simply 'the click of a button'. If so, would not everyone's entries have reached this stage? I dare say that those who use a computer may wish yo draw beautifully and vice-versa. .

One final thought: if this organisation has to raise £2m from private investors then the final candidate will need to do justice to their investment, as well as represent the views of the locality, or even the nation. An opinion poll would be interesting I agree, but decisions of this nature may best be left ultimately to those who can clearly gauge the feasibility of such an installation.
May I be the first to congratulate you BombDog. But onto your comment... I am very interested to hear your POV. There would have been many other credible artists that have entered that have put their design together onto paper, rather than the use of CAD. Perhaps some of these did not have access to the swish CAD software as the Architectural Houses or knowledge to produce these images as the graphic artists. Surely these such produced images have a clearer advantage in their realism to be judged upon than those sketches and drawings produced by hand. All of the finalists are CAD produced... does this seem unfair to the other artists, designers and individuals who do not have such access?
[quote][p][bold]BombDog[/bold] wrote: Ignoring the hot air spouted above for a moment (worthy of filling a Zeppelin), it may be worth considering that a graphic artist or architect may also have the passion for the Spitfire just like any other individual – and they have a role to play. I'm sure if this was a competition to compile the best set of report & accounts that the winner would be very unlikely to be a professional creative. There is no monetary gain from this competition. It takes time to develop a visual concept that communicates what is intended, and very often the returns are directly proportionate to the amount of effort invested. Most likely (hopefully, at least) the shortlisted submitters are working people and they will have dedicated valuable time to the cause of producing spirited works of art – however they are perceived subjectively. There was little site or structural information available to entrants, not much time and a relatively prescriptive brief (aircraft in flight; size, etc.) so designs may be somewhat similar. If anyone else felt they could do better than those who submitted then perhaps they should have taken their chance to show them how it should be done? As far as computer generated imagery is concerned it's time to realise that true creativity comes from man not mouse. A computer is a tool and is wielded accordingly – a design arises in spite of technology, not because of it. It would be churlish to suggest that these artworks have been produced by simply 'the click of a button'. If so, would not everyone's entries have reached this stage? I dare say that those who use a computer may wish yo draw beautifully and vice-versa. [C'est la vie.; horses for courses, etc. – insert your own cliché here]. One final thought: if this organisation has to raise £2m from private investors then the final candidate will need to do justice to their investment, as well as represent the views of the locality, or even the nation. An opinion poll would be interesting I agree, but decisions of this nature may best be left ultimately to those who can clearly gauge the feasibility of such an installation.[/p][/quote]May I be the first to congratulate you BombDog. But onto your comment... I am very interested to hear your POV. There would have been many other credible artists that have entered that have put their design together onto paper, rather than the use of CAD. Perhaps some of these did not have access to the swish CAD software as the Architectural Houses or knowledge to produce these images as the graphic artists. Surely these such produced images have a clearer advantage in their realism to be judged upon than those sketches and drawings produced by hand. All of the finalists are CAD produced... does this seem unfair to the other artists, designers and individuals who do not have such access? SpittingFire

8:14pm Sun 19 Sep 10

freemantlegirl2 says...

BombDog wrote:
Ignoring the hot air spouted above for a moment (worthy of filling a Zeppelin), it may be worth considering that a graphic artist or architect may also have the passion for the Spitfire just like any other individual – and they have a role to play.

I'm sure if this was a competition to compile the best set of report & accounts that the winner would be very unlikely to be a professional creative.

There is no monetary gain from this competition. It takes time to develop a visual concept that communicates what is intended, and very often the returns are directly proportionate to the amount of effort invested. Most likely (hopefully, at least) the shortlisted submitters are working people and they will have dedicated valuable time to the cause of producing spirited works of art – however they are perceived subjectively.

There was little site or structural information available to entrants, not much time and a relatively prescriptive brief (aircraft in flight; size, etc.) so designs may be somewhat similar. If anyone else felt they could do better than those who submitted then perhaps they should have taken their chance to show them how it should be done?

As far as computer generated imagery is concerned it's time to realise that true creativity comes from man not mouse. A computer is a tool and is wielded accordingly – a design arises in spite of technology, not because of it. It would be churlish to suggest that these artworks have been produced by simply 'the click of a button'. If so, would not everyone's entries have reached this stage? I dare say that those who use a computer may wish yo draw beautifully and vice-versa. .

One final thought: if this organisation has to raise £2m from private investors then the final candidate will need to do justice to their investment, as well as represent the views of the locality, or even the nation. An opinion poll would be interesting I agree, but decisions of this nature may best be left ultimately to those who can clearly gauge the feasibility of such an installation.
Absolutely SPOT ON! :)
[quote][p][bold]BombDog[/bold] wrote: Ignoring the hot air spouted above for a moment (worthy of filling a Zeppelin), it may be worth considering that a graphic artist or architect may also have the passion for the Spitfire just like any other individual – and they have a role to play. I'm sure if this was a competition to compile the best set of report & accounts that the winner would be very unlikely to be a professional creative. There is no monetary gain from this competition. It takes time to develop a visual concept that communicates what is intended, and very often the returns are directly proportionate to the amount of effort invested. Most likely (hopefully, at least) the shortlisted submitters are working people and they will have dedicated valuable time to the cause of producing spirited works of art – however they are perceived subjectively. There was little site or structural information available to entrants, not much time and a relatively prescriptive brief (aircraft in flight; size, etc.) so designs may be somewhat similar. If anyone else felt they could do better than those who submitted then perhaps they should have taken their chance to show them how it should be done? As far as computer generated imagery is concerned it's time to realise that true creativity comes from man not mouse. A computer is a tool and is wielded accordingly – a design arises in spite of technology, not because of it. It would be churlish to suggest that these artworks have been produced by simply 'the click of a button'. If so, would not everyone's entries have reached this stage? I dare say that those who use a computer may wish yo draw beautifully and vice-versa. [C'est la vie.; horses for courses, etc. – insert your own cliché here]. One final thought: if this organisation has to raise £2m from private investors then the final candidate will need to do justice to their investment, as well as represent the views of the locality, or even the nation. An opinion poll would be interesting I agree, but decisions of this nature may best be left ultimately to those who can clearly gauge the feasibility of such an installation.[/p][/quote]Absolutely SPOT ON! :) freemantlegirl2

8:38pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

BombDog, I could simply ask this of you, With the same use of media the concurrent theme in the selected short-list, would you still have received the same consideration if you had drawn your by hand rather than produced it with CAD? Would it have quite the same impact and visual appeal as these realist images have done to the Judges? Would the judges have had the vision quite the same potential, without the helping realist hand? To not have one dawn out entry, and them all being CAD on this list makes me deeply suspect that the Judges would not have seen it. This was the basis of my earlier argument. I hope you can appreciate my POV.
BombDog, I could simply ask this of you, With the same use of media the concurrent theme in the selected short-list, would you still have received the same consideration if you had drawn your by hand rather than produced it with CAD? Would it have quite the same impact and visual appeal as these realist images have done to the Judges? Would the judges have had the vision quite the same potential, without the helping realist hand? To not have one dawn out entry, and them all being CAD on this list makes me deeply suspect that the Judges would not have seen it. This was the basis of my earlier argument. I hope you can appreciate my POV. SpittingFire

9:00pm Sun 19 Sep 10

BombDog says...

franiow wrote:
Like number 6 and number 1. There has to be a lightness to the design. Some were rather heavy. Pity number 6 mispelt roll in Victory Roll. Still he's a designer not a speller.
Two comments:

@franiow: wordplay perhaps: a 'role' in the Battle of Britain?

@SpittingFire - above this post: there is a hand-drawn entry (Christopher Draper's) - watercolour - traditional skills mingled with CAD. In any case, why criticise how the cake is baked as long as it tastes good?
[quote][p][bold]franiow[/bold] wrote: Like number 6 and number 1. There has to be a lightness to the design. Some were rather heavy. Pity number 6 mispelt roll in Victory Roll. Still he's a designer not a speller.[/p][/quote]Two comments: @franiow: wordplay perhaps: a 'role' in the Battle of Britain? @SpittingFire - above this post: there is a hand-drawn entry (Christopher Draper's) - watercolour - traditional skills mingled with CAD. In any case, why criticise how the cake is baked as long as it tastes good? BombDog

9:53pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

BombDog wrote:
franiow wrote:
Like number 6 and number 1. There has to be a lightness to the design. Some were rather heavy. Pity number 6 mispelt roll in Victory Roll. Still he's a designer not a speller.
Two comments:

@franiow: wordplay perhaps: a 'role' in the Battle of Britain?

@SpittingFire - above this post: there is a hand-drawn entry (Christopher Draper's) - watercolour - traditional skills mingled with CAD. In any case, why criticise how the cake is baked as long as it tastes good?
As I say he is still a professional graphic artist, who does it for a living, with the skills and facilities to produce the bulk of the structure design through CAD and colour then the watercolour "style" to colourise. I suspect from looking this entry this is the case that it is hand coloured, so you are right in that respect. I concede defeat on that one that there is ONE using the more traditional processes. But the bulk of having to use imagination is already stamped out through the use of CAD.

It's not how the entries are made that is my criticism, I am asking have they, the Judges have really been able to judge them fairly owing to the fact that these short-listed ones are professionally produced by Pros (aside from Burnell). Perhaps the Judges should select more hand drawn entries in addition to their CAD choices, run them through CAD to have a fairer footing of their potential alongside the existing the short-list.
[quote][p][bold]BombDog[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]franiow[/bold] wrote: Like number 6 and number 1. There has to be a lightness to the design. Some were rather heavy. Pity number 6 mispelt roll in Victory Roll. Still he's a designer not a speller.[/p][/quote]Two comments: @franiow: wordplay perhaps: a 'role' in the Battle of Britain? @SpittingFire - above this post: there is a hand-drawn entry (Christopher Draper's) - watercolour - traditional skills mingled with CAD. In any case, why criticise how the cake is baked as long as it tastes good?[/p][/quote]As I say he is still a professional graphic artist, who does it for a living, with the skills and facilities to produce the bulk of the structure design through CAD and colour then the watercolour "style" to colourise. I suspect from looking this entry this is the case that it is hand coloured, so you are right in that respect. I concede defeat on that one that there is ONE using the more traditional processes. But the bulk of having to use imagination is already stamped out through the use of CAD. It's not how the entries are made that is my criticism, I am asking have they, the Judges have really been able to judge them fairly owing to the fact that these short-listed ones are professionally produced by Pros (aside from Burnell). Perhaps the Judges should select more hand drawn entries in addition to their CAD choices, run them through CAD to have a fairer footing of their potential alongside the existing the short-list. SpittingFire

9:59pm Sun 19 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

SpittingFire wrote:
BombDog wrote:
franiow wrote:
Like number 6 and number 1. There has to be a lightness to the design. Some were rather heavy. Pity number 6 mispelt roll in Victory Roll. Still he's a designer not a speller.
Two comments:

@franiow: wordplay perhaps: a 'role' in the Battle of Britain?

@SpittingFire - above this post: there is a hand-drawn entry (Christopher Draper's) - watercolour - traditional skills mingled with CAD. In any case, why criticise how the cake is baked as long as it tastes good?
As I say he is still a professional graphic artist, who does it for a living, with the skills and facilities to produce the bulk of the structure design through CAD and colour then the watercolour "style" to colourise. I suspect from looking this entry this is the case that it is hand coloured, so you are right in that respect. I concede defeat on that one that there is ONE using the more traditional processes. But the bulk of having to use imagination is already stamped out through the use of CAD.

It's not how the entries are made that is my criticism, I am asking have they, the Judges have really been able to judge them fairly owing to the fact that these short-listed ones are professionally produced by Pros (aside from Burnell). Perhaps the Judges should select more hand drawn entries in addition to their CAD choices, run them through CAD to have a fairer footing of their potential alongside the existing the short-list.
Yes, I can appreciate Christopher Draper's design more so now, thank you for pointing that earlier point out BombDog. Some of his illustrations appear to be hand drawn also. Which I'm pleased to see, if so which also blows my argument of the water in many respects. So, for me it'll be either him or Burnell that should win. Burnell more so because of his simplicity and grace in his design, and he's not a professional either.
[quote][p][bold]SpittingFire[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]BombDog[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]franiow[/bold] wrote: Like number 6 and number 1. There has to be a lightness to the design. Some were rather heavy. Pity number 6 mispelt roll in Victory Roll. Still he's a designer not a speller.[/p][/quote]Two comments: @franiow: wordplay perhaps: a 'role' in the Battle of Britain? @SpittingFire - above this post: there is a hand-drawn entry (Christopher Draper's) - watercolour - traditional skills mingled with CAD. In any case, why criticise how the cake is baked as long as it tastes good?[/p][/quote]As I say he is still a professional graphic artist, who does it for a living, with the skills and facilities to produce the bulk of the structure design through CAD and colour then the watercolour "style" to colourise. I suspect from looking this entry this is the case that it is hand coloured, so you are right in that respect. I concede defeat on that one that there is ONE using the more traditional processes. But the bulk of having to use imagination is already stamped out through the use of CAD. It's not how the entries are made that is my criticism, I am asking have they, the Judges have really been able to judge them fairly owing to the fact that these short-listed ones are professionally produced by Pros (aside from Burnell). Perhaps the Judges should select more hand drawn entries in addition to their CAD choices, run them through CAD to have a fairer footing of their potential alongside the existing the short-list.[/p][/quote]Yes, I can appreciate Christopher Draper's design more so now, thank you for pointing that earlier point out BombDog. Some of his illustrations appear to be hand drawn also. Which I'm pleased to see, if so which also blows my argument of the water in many respects. So, for me it'll be either him or Burnell that should win. Burnell more so because of his simplicity and grace in his design, and he's not a professional either. SpittingFire

10:25pm Sun 19 Sep 10

BombDog says...

@SpittingFire > so basically your criteria for the chosen solution is that it MUST be hand-drawn excluding all other efforts? Not a great reward for those who've trained hard to learn some skills is it?

If the competition had stated 'NO PROs' then perhaps you would have a point – but this is a monument to the Spitfire! It helped Britain gain a real and psychological upper hand in a war. It simply isn't something to be considered lightly.

It's a competition but not a game. Yes, it's great for amateurs to be involved – of course it is – but getting it right is actually more important, is it not? Southampton will live with this for a very long time, after all.

And finally, you say: "... run the drawings through CAD for a fairer footing..."?? You really don't know how this stuff works I'm afraid and you have a luddite view of modern technology to the point that you'd rather be blinkered than understand it.
@SpittingFire > so basically your criteria for the chosen solution is that it MUST be hand-drawn excluding all other efforts? Not a great reward for those who've trained hard to learn some skills is it? If the competition had stated 'NO PROs' then perhaps you would have a point – but this is a monument to the Spitfire! It helped Britain gain a real and psychological upper hand in a war. It simply isn't something to be considered lightly. It's a competition but not a game. Yes, it's great for amateurs to be involved – of course it is – but getting it right is actually more important, is it not? Southampton will live with this for a very long time, after all. And finally, you say: "... run the drawings through CAD for a fairer footing..."?? You really don't know how this stuff works I'm afraid and you have a luddite view of modern technology to the point that you'd rather be blinkered than understand it. BombDog

10:17am Mon 20 Sep 10

Big Mac says...

I can only think SpittingFire has gone to draw...
breath.
I can only think SpittingFire has gone to draw... breath. Big Mac

12:53pm Mon 20 Sep 10

southy says...

Stillness wrote:
EM27, wrote:
If you can understand that so easily how come you couldn't understand it when earlier I explained my position on your proposals.

Quite how this all reinforces your points I shall never know as your points and ideas shapeshift in your mind, morphing from one thing to another, from religeon to childrens artwork in the blink of an eye, not forgeting everyone reading books and a city wide vote.

You're not Southy's wife are you?
southy doesn’t have a wife as women are always right, and he only likes the left.
oh very good still, you do have a seance of humour.
was in london friday came back over the dartford toll bridge.
got me thinking has a very large car transporter ship passed under the bridge, we could do with a bridge like this here over the lower parts of southampton waters, you could put a model of the spitfire under the bridge and maybe another over the top of the bridge.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: If you can understand that so easily how come you couldn't understand it when earlier I explained my position on your proposals. Quite how this all reinforces your points I shall never know as your points and ideas shapeshift in your mind, morphing from one thing to another, from religeon to childrens artwork in the blink of an eye, not forgeting everyone reading books and a city wide vote. You're not Southy's wife are you?[/p][/quote]southy doesn’t have a wife as women are always right, and he only likes the left.[/p][/quote]oh very good still, you do have a seance of humour. was in london friday came back over the dartford toll bridge. got me thinking has a very large car transporter ship passed under the bridge, we could do with a bridge like this here over the lower parts of southampton waters, you could put a model of the spitfire under the bridge and maybe another over the top of the bridge. southy

2:05pm Mon 20 Sep 10

chrisdraper says...

As one of the finalists I just read your comments with great interest. On the whole I thought the number and standard of entries was fantastic, especially those created by children. Its great that they felt engaged enough to spend the time on a project like this. Although some of the entries were very creative they may have lost much of their quality during the process of development with engineers and structural reality.

Spittingfire I especially enjoyed your contribution and applaud your passion. As has been said above the competition brief was very proscriptive which has led to the similarity of entrants. As far as the method of presentation is concerned. It has been spotted by the more observant contributors that my entry was entirely hand drawn, with no use of CAD. Im an architectural illustrator and designer, as well as an aviation artist with huge enthusiasm for both the spitfire and aviation in general. The chance to explore the idea of a permanent tribute to this iconic piece of aviation design was one I couldn't miss. My point of reference was also rather wider than you have concluded. There is no financial incentive that may attract some firms, so I would bet that all the finalists have a an overriding passion for the subject.

I hope that which ever design the judges pick, the resulting tribute will put Southampton on the aviation map. There is a long process to be followed before any of the "concept" images shown become physical monuments.
As one of the finalists I just read your comments with great interest. On the whole I thought the number and standard of entries was fantastic, especially those created by children. Its great that they felt engaged enough to spend the time on a project like this. Although some of the entries were very creative they may have lost much of their quality during the process of development with engineers and structural reality. Spittingfire I especially enjoyed your contribution and applaud your passion. As has been said above the competition brief was very proscriptive which has led to the similarity of entrants. As far as the method of presentation is concerned. It has been spotted by the more observant contributors that my entry was entirely hand drawn, with no use of CAD. Im an architectural illustrator and designer, as well as an aviation artist with huge enthusiasm for both the spitfire and aviation in general. The chance to explore the idea of a permanent tribute to this iconic piece of aviation design was one I couldn't miss. My point of reference was also rather wider than you have concluded. There is no financial incentive that may attract some firms, so I would bet that all the finalists have a an overriding passion for the subject. I hope that which ever design the judges pick, the resulting tribute will put Southampton on the aviation map. There is a long process to be followed before any of the "concept" images shown become physical monuments. chrisdraper

2:14pm Mon 20 Sep 10

Redback says...

Number 1 or number 6 please. It seems we have a consensus of opinion there!
Number 1 or number 6 please. It seems we have a consensus of opinion there! Redback

3:57pm Mon 20 Sep 10

Roger Knights says...

Well, I am biased.

I entered a proposal. It can be seen at my site:

http ://www.rogerknights.
co.uk/images8.htm .

I think a lot of these entries look too lightweight, reminiscent of party poppers ! . This was an immensely powerful plane.

I think the structure is in a contemporary development and should look contemporary.

I think it should be more than a momument. It should be educational, hence I include the idea of a visitor centre ( probably, I needed to make my base structure a bit bigger to accomodate this ).

I think it should have a viewing platform. People are attracted by the opportunity to climb things. Climb up and see the planes close up ! People see things from the ground, and think I want to go up there. They could also have a panoramic view of the terminus.

Spitfires flew in squadrons, think dogfights, formations, teamwork. Single plane misses the point for me.

A visitor centre/viewing platfom could generate revenue and jobs, and an uderstanding of the history, not be just a passing curiosity.

Just my totally biased opinion....But good luck to the winner!

Roger.
Well, I am biased. I entered a proposal. It can be seen at my site: http ://www.rogerknights. co.uk/images8.htm . I think a lot of these entries look too lightweight, reminiscent of party poppers ! . This was an immensely powerful plane. I think the structure is in a contemporary development and should look contemporary. I think it should be more than a momument. It should be educational, hence I include the idea of a visitor centre ( probably, I needed to make my base structure a bit bigger to accomodate this ). I think it should have a viewing platform. People are attracted by the opportunity to climb things. Climb up and see the planes close up ! People see things from the ground, and think I want to go up there. They could also have a panoramic view of the terminus. Spitfires flew in squadrons, think dogfights, formations, teamwork. Single plane misses the point for me. A visitor centre/viewing platfom could generate revenue and jobs, and an uderstanding of the history, not be just a passing curiosity. Just my totally biased opinion....But good luck to the winner! Roger. Roger Knights

4:04pm Mon 20 Sep 10

chrisdraper says...

Hi Roger

Wow, that is a great design !!

chris
Hi Roger Wow, that is a great design !! chris chrisdraper

4:16pm Mon 20 Sep 10

BombDog says...

@Roger Knight

Ooh, 'SpittingFire' won't like all that automatic computer art you know!

On your points though, I think a platform sounds interesting and fun but there's health & safety etc.

Also - this is a memorial as well as a landmark. It needs to be respected as such, so the spirit of the pilots and the plane itself should be sensitively represented. In my view, a single plane does this best – it allows for almost dreamy contemplation. While not needing to be sombre it should encourage reflection on the endeavour and of course the loss of life incurred in the course of the B.O.B..

I disagree that the entries are too lightweight: the Spitfire was nippy, fast and light itself – attributes that made it so formidable to the enemy. Why make it seem heavy?
@Roger Knight Ooh, 'SpittingFire' won't like all that automatic computer art you know! On your points though, I think a platform sounds interesting and fun but there's health & safety etc. Also - this is a memorial as well as a landmark. It needs to be respected as such, so the spirit of the pilots and the plane itself should be sensitively represented. In my view, a single plane does this best – it allows for almost dreamy contemplation. While not needing to be sombre it should encourage reflection on the endeavour and of course the loss of life incurred in the course of the B.O.B.. I disagree that the entries are too lightweight: the Spitfire was nippy, fast and light itself – attributes that made it so formidable to the enemy. Why make it seem heavy? BombDog

9:41pm Mon 20 Sep 10

Roger Knights says...

Thanks Chris. Yours is the design that caught my eye. Great illustration. I wish you luck !
Thanks Chris. Yours is the design that caught my eye. Great illustration. I wish you luck ! Roger Knights

11:20pm Mon 20 Sep 10

Roger Knights says...

Hi BomDog, I very nearly designed it myself, but I failed to notice the auto Spitfire Memorial toggle was on . Sorry about that.

Lifts are pretty healthy and safe nowadays !

I saw this very much as a celebration of the success of the plane and it's origins. The plane is still alive and kicking and much loved.

Dreamy maybe if you are flying it, but from the ground it is awsome ! That growl...The muscle car of the skies to my mind !
Hi BomDog, I very nearly designed it myself, but I failed to notice the auto Spitfire Memorial toggle was on . Sorry about that. Lifts are pretty healthy and safe nowadays ! I saw this very much as a celebration of the success of the plane and it's origins. The plane is still alive and kicking and much loved. Dreamy maybe if you are flying it, but from the ground it is awsome ! That growl...The muscle car of the skies to my mind ! Roger Knights

11:25pm Mon 20 Sep 10

BombDog says...

I'm with you all the way with the growl Roger! So synonymous with the visuals of the Spitfire.

Nice work on the design -
:D
I'm with you all the way with the growl Roger! So synonymous with the visuals of the Spitfire. Nice work on the design - [love that Monument toggle button too!] :D BombDog

12:26am Tue 21 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

chrisdraper wrote:
As one of the finalists I just read your comments with great interest. On the whole I thought the number and standard of entries was fantastic, especially those created by children. Its great that they felt engaged enough to spend the time on a project like this. Although some of the entries were very creative they may have lost much of their quality during the process of development with engineers and structural reality.

Spittingfire I especially enjoyed your contribution and applaud your passion. As has been said above the competition brief was very proscriptive which has led to the similarity of entrants. As far as the method of presentation is concerned. It has been spotted by the more observant contributors that my entry was entirely hand drawn, with no use of CAD. Im an architectural illustrator and designer, as well as an aviation artist with huge enthusiasm for both the spitfire and aviation in general. The chance to explore the idea of a permanent tribute to this iconic piece of aviation design was one I couldn't miss. My point of reference was also rather wider than you have concluded. There is no financial incentive that may attract some firms, so I would bet that all the finalists have a an overriding passion for the subject.

I hope that which ever design the judges pick, the resulting tribute will put Southampton on the aviation map. There is a long process to be followed before any of the "concept" images shown become physical monuments.
THANK YOU SO MUCH CHRIS! For taking the time to contribute here and to explain the presentation of your design. I am DELIGHTED to see that what you have produced is wholly hand done, after BomDog first pointed it out to the water-colouring to me. My CONGRATULATIONS! You have resolved my argument for the traditional hand. I can breathe a sigh of relief that the shortlist is not all CAD produced, and please take my initial reaction as a compliment when I first saw your entry and made the assumption of CAD. I applaud your impeccable skill that has allowed you to produce an image so comparable to those done in CAD. I feel that such a work can more equally compete against the other computer generated images now, and so the results of the competition a little fairer. I am also glad to hear that you are also a passionate aviation artist, and this has certainly come out in your design. Unfortunately the poor resolution the Echo has provided us with means I can see and read your entry in more detail. My only concern in your design is the back view, away from the waterfront. The site that the Foundation have selected means that visitors will be approaching it from behind, and it will be a pity that visitors may not be able stand underneath your the Spitfire part of the structure, which I imagine to stand under and look up, as you have depicted, would be very powerful indeed. Unless they turn it the other way round so visitors rather than the Cruise passengers get the benefit from seeing it from the front.

Anyway, just a note to justify my rant yesterday: The results were published in this local newspaper on Satuday with just the grouped image above, all piled up ontop of each other, unfairly and badly layout, and I all could see was that they were all CAD produced, with annotations of Architectural firms, etc.. Well, this will teach me not to be so presumptuous next time. But I hope the Echo will also make it fairer and give the short-list entries proper newspaper space so we can see each of them individually next time!

BombDog. There is nothing wrong with computer art, I didn't say I didn't like it. My beef was that the shortlisted entries looked to be in the same media, but as you pointed out last night, Draper's is hand done. So I can pack my initial argument away now.
[quote][p][bold]chrisdraper[/bold] wrote: As one of the finalists I just read your comments with great interest. On the whole I thought the number and standard of entries was fantastic, especially those created by children. Its great that they felt engaged enough to spend the time on a project like this. Although some of the entries were very creative they may have lost much of their quality during the process of development with engineers and structural reality. Spittingfire I especially enjoyed your contribution and applaud your passion. As has been said above the competition brief was very proscriptive which has led to the similarity of entrants. As far as the method of presentation is concerned. It has been spotted by the more observant contributors that my entry was entirely hand drawn, with no use of CAD. Im an architectural illustrator and designer, as well as an aviation artist with huge enthusiasm for both the spitfire and aviation in general. The chance to explore the idea of a permanent tribute to this iconic piece of aviation design was one I couldn't miss. My point of reference was also rather wider than you have concluded. There is no financial incentive that may attract some firms, so I would bet that all the finalists have a an overriding passion for the subject. I hope that which ever design the judges pick, the resulting tribute will put Southampton on the aviation map. There is a long process to be followed before any of the "concept" images shown become physical monuments.[/p][/quote]THANK YOU SO MUCH CHRIS! For taking the time to contribute here and to explain the presentation of your design. I am DELIGHTED to see that what you have produced is wholly hand done, after BomDog first pointed it out to the water-colouring to me. My CONGRATULATIONS! You have resolved my argument for the traditional hand. I can breathe a sigh of relief that the shortlist is not all CAD produced, and please take my initial reaction as a compliment when I first saw your entry and made the assumption of CAD. I applaud your impeccable skill that has allowed you to produce an image so comparable to those done in CAD. I feel that such a work can more equally compete against the other computer generated images now, and so the results of the competition a little fairer. I am also glad to hear that you are also a passionate aviation artist, and this has certainly come out in your design. Unfortunately the poor resolution the Echo has provided us with means I can see and read your entry in more detail. My only concern in your design is the back view, away from the waterfront. The site that the Foundation have selected means that visitors will be approaching it from behind, and it will be a pity that visitors may not be able stand underneath your the Spitfire part of the structure, which I imagine to stand under and look up, as you have depicted, would be very powerful indeed. Unless they turn it the other way round so visitors rather than the Cruise passengers get the benefit from seeing it from the front. Anyway, just a note to justify my rant yesterday: The results were published in this local newspaper on Satuday with just the grouped image above, all piled up ontop of each other, unfairly and badly layout, and I all could see was that they were all CAD produced, with annotations of Architectural firms, etc.. Well, this will teach me not to be so presumptuous next time. But I hope the Echo will also make it fairer and give the short-list entries proper newspaper space so we can see each of them individually next time! BombDog. There is nothing wrong with computer art, I didn't say I didn't like it. My beef was that the shortlisted entries looked to be in the same media, but as you pointed out last night, Draper's is hand done. So I can pack my initial argument away now. SpittingFire

12:38am Tue 21 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

Roger Knights wrote:
Well, I am biased.

I entered a proposal. It can be seen at my site:

http ://www.rogerknights.

co.uk/images8.htm .

I think a lot of these entries look too lightweight, reminiscent of party poppers ! . This was an immensely powerful plane.

I think the structure is in a contemporary development and should look contemporary.

I think it should be more than a momument. It should be educational, hence I include the idea of a visitor centre ( probably, I needed to make my base structure a bit bigger to accomodate this ).

I think it should have a viewing platform. People are attracted by the opportunity to climb things. Climb up and see the planes close up ! People see things from the ground, and think I want to go up there. They could also have a panoramic view of the terminus.

Spitfires flew in squadrons, think dogfights, formations, teamwork. Single plane misses the point for me.

A visitor centre/viewing platfom could generate revenue and jobs, and an uderstanding of the history, not be just a passing curiosity.

Just my totally biased opinion....But good luck to the winner!

Roger.
And no Bombdog! I do indeed approve of Roger's design, it is completely different to the shortlist, but as you and Chris pointed out there were constraints in what the Foundation were asking for in this competition. But these different designs just go to show what further creative possibilities there could have been if the Foundation would be more open to them, and as Roger says there could be so much more to celebrate the legacy of the Spitfire as well as the monument. For one thing select a better site for people rather than Dock traffic to really enjoy it. Thank you very much for sharing your design Roger and your thoughts, I do so agree!
[quote][p][bold]Roger Knights[/bold] wrote: Well, I am biased. I entered a proposal. It can be seen at my site: http ://www.rogerknights. co.uk/images8.htm . I think a lot of these entries look too lightweight, reminiscent of party poppers ! . This was an immensely powerful plane. I think the structure is in a contemporary development and should look contemporary. I think it should be more than a momument. It should be educational, hence I include the idea of a visitor centre ( probably, I needed to make my base structure a bit bigger to accomodate this ). I think it should have a viewing platform. People are attracted by the opportunity to climb things. Climb up and see the planes close up ! People see things from the ground, and think I want to go up there. They could also have a panoramic view of the terminus. Spitfires flew in squadrons, think dogfights, formations, teamwork. Single plane misses the point for me. A visitor centre/viewing platfom could generate revenue and jobs, and an uderstanding of the history, not be just a passing curiosity. Just my totally biased opinion....But good luck to the winner! Roger.[/p][/quote]And no Bombdog! I do indeed approve of Roger's design, it is completely different to the shortlist, but as you and Chris pointed out there were constraints in what the Foundation were asking for in this competition. But these different designs just go to show what further creative possibilities there could have been if the Foundation would be more open to them, and as Roger says there could be so much more to celebrate the legacy of the Spitfire as well as the monument. For one thing select a better site for people rather than Dock traffic to really enjoy it. Thank you very much for sharing your design Roger and your thoughts, I do so agree! SpittingFire

1:00am Tue 21 Sep 10

SpittingFire says...

BombDog wrote:
@SpittingFire > so basically your criteria for the chosen solution is that it MUST be hand-drawn excluding all other efforts? Not a great reward for those who've trained hard to learn some skills is it?

If the competition had stated 'NO PROs' then perhaps you would have a point – but this is a monument to the Spitfire! It helped Britain gain a real and psychological upper hand in a war. It simply isn't something to be considered lightly.

It's a competition but not a game. Yes, it's great for amateurs to be involved – of course it is – but getting it right is actually more important, is it not? Southampton will live with this for a very long time, after all.

And finally, you say: "... run the drawings through CAD for a fairer footing..."?? You really don't know how this stuff works I'm afraid and you have a luddite view of modern technology to the point that you'd rather be blinkered than understand it.
But BombDog.... if Draper's wins, they will have to CAD it up in order to build it!
[quote][p][bold]BombDog[/bold] wrote: @SpittingFire > so basically your criteria for the chosen solution is that it MUST be hand-drawn excluding all other efforts? Not a great reward for those who've trained hard to learn some skills is it? If the competition had stated 'NO PROs' then perhaps you would have a point – but this is a monument to the Spitfire! It helped Britain gain a real and psychological upper hand in a war. It simply isn't something to be considered lightly. It's a competition but not a game. Yes, it's great for amateurs to be involved – of course it is – but getting it right is actually more important, is it not? Southampton will live with this for a very long time, after all. And finally, you say: "... run the drawings through CAD for a fairer footing..."?? You really don't know how this stuff works I'm afraid and you have a luddite view of modern technology to the point that you'd rather be blinkered than understand it.[/p][/quote]But BombDog.... if Draper's wins, they will have to CAD it up in order to build it! SpittingFire

3:12am Tue 21 Sep 10

FrankieSmith says...

What a wonderful idea. As a World War 2 'enthusiast' I have long admired the Spitfire. Few young people today appreciate the impact that the technology of yesteryear has on today's society. But the Spitfire in its day was the pinnacle of aerodynamic technology - its role in our war victory should never be underestimated. We would all be speaking German had we not had the Spitfire. So it is only fitting that it should be honoured by the latest technology and greatest artistic expression that our nation currently has to offer, professional or amateur. One thing is for sure, this was not a plane created by amateurs. I too like the designs of Mr Rist and Mr Lucas, Mr Rist perhaps has the edge for me. In his expression the Spitfire looks free, dynamic and joyously in flight. Which is exactly what springs to mind when I think of the Spitfire. One or two designs look encumbered and like the plane is almost being held back, though admittedly I think this is because they have tried to show the plane in various feats. Mr Lucas' design has something enduring about it too. Good luck chaps! Whatever method they eventually use to create the memorial you can all be proud of your contributions.
What a wonderful idea. As a World War 2 'enthusiast' I have long admired the Spitfire. Few young people today appreciate the impact that the technology of yesteryear has on today's society. But the Spitfire in its day was the pinnacle of aerodynamic technology - its role in our war victory should never be underestimated. We would all be speaking German had we not had the Spitfire. So it is only fitting that it should be honoured by the latest technology and greatest artistic expression that our nation currently has to offer, professional or amateur. One thing is for sure, this was not a plane created by amateurs. I too like the designs of Mr Rist and Mr Lucas, Mr Rist perhaps has the edge for me. In his expression the Spitfire looks free, dynamic and joyously in flight. Which is exactly what springs to mind when I think of the Spitfire. One or two designs look encumbered and like the plane is almost being held back, though admittedly I think this is because they have tried to show the plane in various feats. Mr Lucas' design has something enduring about it too. Good luck chaps! Whatever method they eventually use to create the memorial you can all be proud of your contributions. FrankieSmith

2:07pm Tue 21 Sep 10

B. L. says...

southy wrote:
Stillness wrote:
EM27, wrote:
If you can understand that so easily how come you couldn't understand it when earlier I explained my position on your proposals.

Quite how this all reinforces your points I shall never know as your points and ideas shapeshift in your mind, morphing from one thing to another, from religeon to childrens artwork in the blink of an eye, not forgeting everyone reading books and a city wide vote.

You're not Southy's wife are you?
southy doesn’t have a wife as women are always right, and he only likes the left.
oh very good still, you do have a seance of humour.
was in london friday came back over the dartford toll bridge.
got me thinking has a very large car transporter ship passed under the bridge, we could do with a bridge like this here over the lower parts of southampton waters, you could put a model of the spitfire under the bridge and maybe another over the top of the bridge.
You didn't finish your last sentence southy, should have added "..and scared the s**t out of visiting German cruise ships". :)

Stillness, I liked that response. :)
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]EM27,[/bold] wrote: If you can understand that so easily how come you couldn't understand it when earlier I explained my position on your proposals. Quite how this all reinforces your points I shall never know as your points and ideas shapeshift in your mind, morphing from one thing to another, from religeon to childrens artwork in the blink of an eye, not forgeting everyone reading books and a city wide vote. You're not Southy's wife are you?[/p][/quote]southy doesn’t have a wife as women are always right, and he only likes the left.[/p][/quote]oh very good still, you do have a seance of humour. was in london friday came back over the dartford toll bridge. got me thinking has a very large car transporter ship passed under the bridge, we could do with a bridge like this here over the lower parts of southampton waters, you could put a model of the spitfire under the bridge and maybe another over the top of the bridge.[/p][/quote]You didn't finish your last sentence southy, should have added "..and scared the s**t out of visiting German cruise ships". :) Stillness, I liked that response. :) B. L.

10:07am Thu 23 Sep 10

BombDog says...

For what it's worth - my opinion on the finalists:

1. Looks quite heavy and Spitfire seems to be too restrained by its attachment. Otherwise it's simple and does the job of showing the aircraft well. Materials should work well.

2. Nice shapes, just perhaps a little to awkward where the tendrils of metal attach to the wings. Rocket-launch style take off seems a bit harsh.

3. Striking and recognisable (thanks mainly to the Spitfire) but looks a bit precariously balanced. Not sure that the supporting elements do much for the monument apart from simply suspending it.

4. Very imposing and dominant structure. Allows a good view of Spitfire. Looks perhaps too heavy though and angular lines are a tad too harsh for the Spitfire. Technically, well researched by the looks of things.

5. Interesting, modern approach. The tangled steel looks like the Spitfire is on fire though! Structure looks comfortably balanced technically.

6. Graceful, elegant structure. Iconic shape and useful, informative base to the monument. Good to see the Spitfire in free, unhindered flight. Victory roll is very appropriate with 'Reach for the Sky' kind of feeling. Good to see Mitchell get recognition.

Respect due to all entrants.
For what it's worth - my opinion on the finalists: 1. Looks quite heavy and Spitfire seems to be too restrained by its attachment. Otherwise it's simple and does the job of showing the aircraft well. Materials should work well. 2. Nice shapes, just perhaps a little to awkward where the tendrils of metal attach to the wings. Rocket-launch style take off seems a bit harsh. 3. Striking and recognisable (thanks mainly to the Spitfire) but looks a bit precariously balanced. Not sure that the supporting elements do much for the monument apart from simply suspending it. 4. Very imposing and dominant structure. Allows a good view of Spitfire. Looks perhaps too heavy though and angular lines are a tad too harsh for the Spitfire. Technically, well researched by the looks of things. 5. Interesting, modern approach. The tangled steel looks like the Spitfire is on fire though! Structure looks comfortably balanced technically. 6. Graceful, elegant structure. Iconic shape and useful, informative base to the monument. Good to see the Spitfire in free, unhindered flight. Victory roll is very appropriate with 'Reach for the Sky' kind of feeling. Good to see Mitchell get recognition. Respect due to all entrants. BombDog

10:22am Thu 30 Sep 10

Roger Knights says...

Bombdog, I am afraid I am not won over by your arguments.
This is supposed to put Southamptom on the map. I think a combined visitor centre with it's own parking facilities would be far more appropriate. There could even be a facility to arrange school day trips. This would put Southampton on the map. It might initially cost more, but it would be partly self funding and, I would have thought, be of far more value to the local community.

Just my biased viewpoint....
Bombdog, I am afraid I am not won over by your arguments. This is supposed to put Southamptom on the map. I think a combined visitor centre with it's own parking facilities would be far more appropriate. There could even be a facility to arrange school day trips. This would put Southampton on the map. It might initially cost more, but it would be partly self funding and, I would have thought, be of far more value to the local community. Just my biased viewpoint.... Roger Knights

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