Off-road cycle races could be banned in Forest (From Daily Echo)

I suggest we all stop visiting the New Forest - leave the people that live there to get on with their own lives and see how they manage without "outsiders".

This seems to be a bit of an ridiculous argument really. Both parties need to get together and just work on an ideal solution to keep both sides happy rather than create an unnecessary stand off.

I remember that previous article and indeed the heavy bias within it. Again, I see no effort has been made on the part of the reporter to speak to the organisers of the event to redress the balance of views. I'd be vaguely sympathetic if this was a motocross event or something, but cycling is hardly a high impact sport. Moreover we should be encouraging sport of this nature, not looking for ways to be offended by it.

NFA chairman Peter Roberts said: “We support responsible cycling but there are other forests that are better suited to high-speed mass cycling events.”

Not In My Back Yard, in other words. I would respectfully point out to the officious pompous little prig that a network of off road cycle tracks, surfaced with gravel, is pretty much an ideal spot for a cycle rally- or would be, but for the fact that it might spoil his view.

my god how boring are these people, they should be pleased some people are putting the space to good use.

Whilst the article and/or views are clearly a load of tosh, on the subject of cycling in the forest, does anyone think there should be cycle lanes built on some of the main roads? Safety for cyclists and peace of mind for vehicle drivers. Just a thought...

"on the subject of cycling in the forest, does anyone think there should be cycle lanes built on some of the main roads?"

No, follow the Dutch example, build cycle paths, and separate foot-paths, alongside the main roads!

Niel wrote:
"on the subject of cycling in the forest, does anyone think there should be cycle lanes built on some of the main roads?"

No, follow the Dutch example, build cycle paths, and separate foot-paths, alongside the main roads!

Yes, because there is loads of money sloshing around for projects like these just to please the Lycra Lot.

speedicut wrote:
I remember that previous article and indeed the heavy bias within it. Again, I see no effort has been made on the part of the reporter to speak to the organisers of the event to redress the balance of views. I'd be vaguely sympathetic if this was a motocross event or something, but cycling is hardly a high impact sport. Moreover we should be encouraging sport of this nature, not looking for ways to be offended by it.

What part of "A spokesman for the organisers refused to comment " did you not understand?

I would have thought the best thing the NFA could do is talk to the organisers of such events and work out how to properly regulate it. 1800 riders, (and undoubtedly some of their families) coming into the area have the potential to bring a healthy dose of valuable revenue. Properly managed, that has to be a good thing. The message coming from the NFA as I see it is that they consider large, organised rides to be "irresponsible" use... I would hope that the solution to this will be one of discourse rather than generalist bans.

Just looking at the event website, the article here is a bit misleading... I struggle with the wording that the NFA have just "discovered" this event... that implies to me that it was some secretive, guerilla-style event which was going to descend on the area. Turns out it was run last year, and maybe even the year before... and it's one of a number of cycling events in the forest.

http://www.ukcycling
events.co.uk/events/
wiggle-new-forest-sp
ring-mtb-ride-2012/

Which is worse - cyclists or caravans?

The nimbys strike again

Torchie1 wrote:

speedicut wrote: I remember that previous article and indeed the heavy bias within it. Again, I see no effort has been made on the part of the reporter to speak to the organisers of the event to redress the balance of views. I'd be vaguely sympathetic if this was a motocross event or something, but cycling is hardly a high impact sport. Moreover we should be encouraging sport of this nature, not looking for ways to be offended by it.

What part of "A spokesman for the organisers refused to comment " did you not understand?

That was added to the article after my comment as part of this section of text...

"The event is the New Forest Spring Sportive, due to take place in Brockenhurst on April 14 as part of the Wiggle Super Series, when riders will be electronically timed.

A spokesman for the organisers refused to comment."

Beer Monster wrote:
Whilst the article and/or views are clearly a load of tosh, on the subject of cycling in the forest, does anyone think there should be cycle lanes built on some of the main roads? Safety for cyclists and peace of mind for vehicle drivers. Just a thought...

WHAT, waste more public money providing more cycling lanes when every day one can see pig headed lycra-louts ignoring the cycle lanes already provided.

The roads aren't wide enough to put in proper cycle lanes which is why they haven't done it. The Lyndhurst to Ashurst road had a path put in alongside the road but then they went and gravelled it to make it fit in with the environment and basically made it unusable for road bikes!

I think the New Forest should have clear bike lanes around it mainly for the number of tourists who ride there each year in the summer.

Huffter wrote:
I suggest we all stop visiting the New Forest - leave the people that live there to get on with their own lives and see how they manage without "outsiders".

I think you will find this has got very little to do with the average person living in the New Forest and more to do with busy bodies. Whilst I cant speak for the NFA I can fairly well guarantee there is only one group of people who want to see the back of the National Park Dictatorship and that is the people that live here and have to put up with thier interferring ways.

Ways which are most definately not in keeping with the average forest family who generally are happy to live and let live and not interfere with others.

Before we ban this cycle race lets see out of all the people who feel they should have an opinion on it.... how many were actually born in the forest! and therefore ascertain exactly how many of these idiots in positions of authority actually know what they are talking about!

What most of the posters have failed to understand is that any tyres car or bike compact the soil of the forest and cause more damage than any walker or horse rider can.
Once the damage is done the fragile ecosystem of the forest is destroyed it is difficult to recover.
Whilst all regular posters know my opinion of cyclists in general, we are talking a lot of bikes in one place which is difficult to cope with on the narrow roads in the forest and as such should be re thought to provide minimum impact.
Do not let your usual cycling arrogance spoil our forest, try walking or horse riding it might let you enjoy the beauty at a slower pace

The NFA are shooting themselves in the foot. There is an army of volunteers from sections of the mountain biking community that not only help out at these events, but also help sculp and manage the landscape around it.

If you ban the event, you take away a large volunteer workforce that repair paths, cut back dying plantation and clear up litter.

Issues with cycle lanes and small roads are not the problem here, my understanding is that this is an off-road course, so moaning about it on that basis is a bit like people moaning about rally drivers in relation to a van driver breaking the speed limit on a motorway.

downfader wrote:
The NFA are shooting themselves in the foot. There is an army of volunteers from sections of the mountain biking community that not only help out at these events, but also help sculp and manage the landscape around it.

If you ban the event, you take away a large volunteer workforce that repair paths, cut back dying plantation and clear up litter.

Issues with cycle lanes and small roads are not the problem here, my understanding is that this is an off-road course, so moaning about it on that basis is a bit like people moaning about rally drivers in relation to a van driver breaking the speed limit on a motorway.

Read my post DF your mates case more damage than they so called repair, stick to the cycle paths that were built for you in town, Oh sorry you dont like to use those either!
Face it buddy you arn't wanted anywhere because you are never satisfied unless you get your own way

downfader wrote:
The NFA are shooting themselves in the foot. There is an army of volunteers from sections of the mountain biking community that not only help out at these events, but also help sculp and manage the landscape around it.

If you ban the event, you take away a large volunteer workforce that repair paths, cut back dying plantation and clear up litter.

Issues with cycle lanes and small roads are not the problem here, my understanding is that this is an off-road course, so moaning about it on that basis is a bit like people moaning about rally drivers in relation to a van driver breaking the speed limit on a motorway.

Read my post DF your mates case more damage than they so called repair, stick to the cycle paths that were built for you in town, Oh sorry you dont like to use those either!
Face it buddy you arn't wanted anywhere because you are never satisfied unless you get your own way

geoff51 wrote:
What most of the posters have failed to understand is that any tyres car or bike compact the soil of the forest and cause more damage than any walker or horse rider can. Once the damage is done the fragile ecosystem of the forest is destroyed it is difficult to recover. Whilst all regular posters know my opinion of cyclists in general, we are talking a lot of bikes in one place which is difficult to cope with on the narrow roads in the forest and as such should be re thought to provide minimum impact. Do not let your usual cycling arrogance spoil our forest, try walking or horse riding it might let you enjoy the beauty at a slower pace

I can see you don't have a clue - shoed horses cause far more damage to the forest than any bike tyres!

While off road competitive anything should be severely limited in the Forest especially during the bird nesting season, it's the cylcist on or off road who racwe ( illegally) with no thought for others that are a big nuisance.
The Park policy is for quiet enjoyment, not competitive sports.

The park is for everyone - and as long as events (competitive and otherwise) are run and organised properly (as the UK Cycle event are). Then there should be no real issues.
The New forest is a perfect location for competitive events (both on / off road). where would you rather they were run? Southampton City Centre?

Secondly how do you race illegally? It is either an organised race (needing police to be notified as well as others) or it is a group of people(riders, runners, cyclists) out together? Nothing different to cars going out on 'group' drives!
To combat this problem more organised rides with the greater accountability that this provides is actually the solution as people will take part in these events rather than 'arrange' their own meets.

geoff51 wrote:
What most of the posters have failed to understand is that any tyres car or bike compact the soil of the forest and cause more damage than any walker or horse rider can. Once the damage is done the fragile ecosystem of the forest is destroyed it is difficult to recover. Whilst all regular posters know my opinion of cyclists in general, we are talking a lot of bikes in one place which is difficult to cope with on the narrow roads in the forest and as such should be re thought to provide minimum impact. Do not let your usual cycling arrogance spoil our forest, try walking or horse riding it might let you enjoy the beauty at a slower pace

I do agree the NF is fragile and needs careful management for all groups.

Most cyclists do enjoy their surroundings, if not we would just use indoor trainers or ride round town. In fact after 20 years of enjoying both road and off road I can honestly say the majority of cyclists take care of the environment very seriously.

Look at the positive impact in Wales and Scotland and other parts of the UK that are progressive with land access and the benefits to local communities. Careful management is the key not banning.

Totton Tim wrote:

geoff51 wrote:
What most of the posters have failed to understand is that any tyres car or bike compact the soil of the forest and cause more damage than any walker or horse rider can. Once the damage is done the fragile ecosystem of the forest is destroyed it is difficult to recover. Whilst all regular posters know my opinion of cyclists in general, we are talking a lot of bikes in one place which is difficult to cope with on the narrow roads in the forest and as such should be re thought to provide minimum impact. Do not let your usual cycling arrogance spoil our forest, try walking or horse riding it might let you enjoy the beauty at a slower pace

I can see you don't have a clue - shoed horses cause far more damage to the forest than any bike tyres!

horses have been an integral part of the Forest since it was created about 1,000 years ago, so why is the Forest still in existence today? Kindly provide some evidence to support this

Totton Tim wrote:

geoff51 wrote:
What most of the posters have failed to understand is that any tyres car or bike compact the soil of the forest and cause more damage than any walker or horse rider can. Once the damage is done the fragile ecosystem of the forest is destroyed it is difficult to recover. Whilst all regular posters know my opinion of cyclists in general, we are talking a lot of bikes in one place which is difficult to cope with on the narrow roads in the forest and as such should be re thought to provide minimum impact. Do not let your usual cycling arrogance spoil our forest, try walking or horse riding it might let you enjoy the beauty at a slower pace

I can see you don't have a clue - shoed horses cause far more damage to the forest than any bike tyres!

Who shooed the horse, dont you mean shod? shows the depth of your knowledge! Actually you are totally wrong tyres compact the soil shod hooves turn it over and open it up.
Cycles have no place in the open forest and should only be allowed on the gravel paths where they can do less damage.
Dont try to tell me I dont have a clue when you yourself are clueless

Frogham Ferret wrote:
While off road competitive anything should be severely limited in the Forest especially during the bird nesting season, it's the cylcist on or off road who racwe ( illegally) with no thought for others that are a big nuisance.
The Park policy is for quiet enjoyment, not competitive sports.

hear hear!!

Huffter wrote:
I suggest we all stop visiting the New Forest - leave the people that live there to get on with their own lives and see how they manage without "outsiders".

if only you would! but you won't do so will you in your desire to drive out us nimby tw@ts and destroy the Forest , turning it into a cycle race track

Huffter wrote:
I suggest we all stop visiting the New Forest - leave the people that live there to get on with their own lives and see how they manage without "outsiders".

if only you would! but you won't do so will you in your desire to drive out us nimby tw@ts and destroy the Forest , turning it into a cycle race track

geoff51 wrote:

Totton Tim wrote:

geoff51 wrote:
What most of the posters have failed to understand is that any tyres car or bike compact the soil of the forest and cause more damage than any walker or horse rider can. Once the damage is done the fragile ecosystem of the forest is destroyed it is difficult to recover. Whilst all regular posters know my opinion of cyclists in general, we are talking a lot of bikes in one place which is difficult to cope with on the narrow roads in the forest and as such should be re thought to provide minimum impact. Do not let your usual cycling arrogance spoil our forest, try walking or horse riding it might let you enjoy the beauty at a slower pace

I can see you don't have a clue - shoed horses cause far more damage to the forest than any bike tyres!

Who shooed the horse, dont you mean shod? shows the depth of your knowledge! Actually you are totally wrong tyres compact the soil shod hooves turn it over and open it up.
Cycles have no place in the open forest and should only be allowed on the gravel paths where they can do less damage.
Dont try to tell me I dont have a clue when you yourself are clueless

in fact, cycling on the open Forest is not permitted and cyclists can be fined up to £500. But why bother to mention it along with footpaths and pavements which are not cycle race tracks either since you do as you please, show no consideration for others and can't even distinguish between "private - farm access only" and "bridleway" turning abusive and aggressive towards anyone who tries to point you in the right direction

djl197 wrote:
The park is for everyone - and as long as events (competitive and otherwise) are run and organised properly (as the UK Cycle event are). Then there should be no real issues.
The New forest is a perfect location for competitive events (both on / off road). where would you rather they were run? Southampton City Centre?

Secondly how do you race illegally? It is either an organised race (needing police to be notified as well as others) or it is a group of people(riders, runners, cyclists) out together? Nothing different to cars going out on 'group' drives!
To combat this problem more organised rides with the greater accountability that this provides is actually the solution as people will take part in these events rather than 'arrange' their own meets.

why, when it owes its character to the free roaming livestock, is it the "ideal location".

As for riding illegally, participants are apparently obliged to observe a code of conduct and face disqualification for failure to abide by it. From my observations just about every participant should be disqualified, which would solve the problem.

Do you ride in accordance with the Highway code?
Are you courteous to other road users?
Are you prepared to slow down or stop (unless you percieve immenant danger to yourselves)?
Do you obey priorities at road junctions?

And of course, your marshals never stop other traffic so you can contunue your race as fast as you can

kennethwfd wrote:

djl197 wrote:
The park is for everyone - and as long as events (competitive and otherwise) are run and organised properly (as the UK Cycle event are). Then there should be no real issues.
The New forest is a perfect location for competitive events (both on / off road). where would you rather they were run? Southampton City Centre?

Secondly how do you race illegally? It is either an organised race (needing police to be notified as well as others) or it is a group of people(riders, runners, cyclists) out together? Nothing different to cars going out on 'group' drives!
To combat this problem more organised rides with the greater accountability that this provides is actually the solution as people will take part in these events rather than 'arrange' their own meets.

why, when it owes its character to the free roaming livestock, is it the "ideal location".

As for riding illegally, participants are apparently obliged to observe a code of conduct and face disqualification for failure to abide by it. From my observations just about every participant should be disqualified, which would solve the problem.

Do you ride in accordance with the Highway code?
Are you courteous to other road users?
Are you prepared to slow down or stop (unless you percieve immenant danger to yourselves)?
Do you obey priorities at road junctions?

And of course, your marshals never stop other traffic so you can contunue your race as fast as you can

Before he can first answer YOU must validate your enquiry by displaying that you yourself behave according to the codes of conduct and that you know what they are.

Many times I have had drivers comment to me that I'm riding "illegally", but when I point out that I'm riding to the contrary and reference said law or part of the Highway Code they get all flustered and confused.

I would answer your earlier comments with this: this is an organised event and managed in accordance and co-operation with local authorities (including the Police). It takes a lot to just get it off the ground. Complaints about other cyclists on other routes is really irrelevant to this discussion. That is a matter for the LAs to deal with, and the residents to report/document as and when they happen.

But, and here is a big but, you MUST make sure that this is not a dedicated cycle route. I have ridden across Southampton Common, the Hamble Lane shared route, and even the cycle route near Staples in the city centre - I have had pedestrians say to me "...this isnt a cycle track!" despite standing right next to the sign that denotes it as such.

So answer you're own questions:
- Do you obey priorities at junctions? Or are you one of the few drivers who like to pull out on me as I approach or head around roundabouts?
- Are you courteous to other road users? Or are you like the bloke who recently drove past me, window down, too close and shouted an obscenity?
- etc, etc...

The Marshalls have every right to control traffic where safety is concerned. Part of your agreement under use of the roads (both via licence and according to the road traffic related acts) is to comply with those empowered to direct traffic.

geoff51 wrote:

Frogham Ferret wrote:
While off road competitive anything should be severely limited in the Forest especially during the bird nesting season, it's the cylcist on or off road who racwe ( illegally) with no thought for others that are a big nuisance.
The Park policy is for quiet enjoyment, not competitive sports.

hear hear!!

This the essence of why we object to these cycle events.

Wish I'd written the last sentence.

Hope you are aware of what is being proposed. Organisers of these events are trying to change the law in order to be able to hold them without police authorisation. They will be able to close roads in order for these events to take place. Marshals at these events will have powers to stop or divert other traffic

kennethwfd wrote:

geoff51 wrote:

Frogham Ferret wrote:
While off road competitive anything should be severely limited in the Forest especially during the bird nesting season, it's the cylcist on or off road who racwe ( illegally) with no thought for others that are a big nuisance.
The Park policy is for quiet enjoyment, not competitive sports.

hear hear!!

This the essence of why we object to these cycle events.

Wish I'd written the last sentence.

Hope you are aware of what is being proposed. Organisers of these events are trying to change the law in order to be able to hold them without police authorisation. They will be able to close roads in order for these events to take place. Marshals at these events will have powers to stop or divert other traffic

No, thats not what is happening at all. The current legislation makes it too hard to organise sporting events (that includes distance running like half marathons too). The changes seek to smooth the way things work as there is far too much red tape.

Marshalls already have this power under certain Police co-operation. The information is on British Cycling's website.

And you havent yet answered your own "criteria" that you bemoaned ealier.

downfader wrote:

kennethwfd wrote:

djl197 wrote:
The park is for everyone - and as long as events (competitive and otherwise) are run and organised properly (as the UK Cycle event are). Then there should be no real issues.
The New forest is a perfect location for competitive events (both on / off road). where would you rather they were run? Southampton City Centre?

Secondly how do you race illegally? It is either an organised race (needing police to be notified as well as others) or it is a group of people(riders, runners, cyclists) out together? Nothing different to cars going out on 'group' drives!
To combat this problem more organised rides with the greater accountability that this provides is actually the solution as people will take part in these events rather than 'arrange' their own meets.

why, when it owes its character to the free roaming livestock, is it the "ideal location".

As for riding illegally, participants are apparently obliged to observe a code of conduct and face disqualification for failure to abide by it. From my observations just about every participant should be disqualified, which would solve the problem.

Do you ride in accordance with the Highway code?
Are you courteous to other road users?
Are you prepared to slow down or stop (unless you percieve immenant danger to yourselves)?
Do you obey priorities at road junctions?

And of course, your marshals never stop other traffic so you can contunue your race as fast as you can

Before he can first answer YOU must validate your enquiry by displaying that you yourself behave according to the codes of conduct and that you know what they are.

Many times I have had drivers comment to me that I'm riding "illegally", but when I point out that I'm riding to the contrary and reference said law or part of the Highway Code they get all flustered and confused.

I would answer your earlier comments with this: this is an organised event and managed in accordance and co-operation with local authorities (including the Police). It takes a lot to just get it off the ground. Complaints about other cyclists on other routes is really irrelevant to this discussion. That is a matter for the LAs to deal with, and the residents to report/document as and when they happen.

But, and here is a big but, you MUST make sure that this is not a dedicated cycle route. I have ridden across Southampton Common, the Hamble Lane shared route, and even the cycle route near Staples in the city centre - I have had pedestrians say to me "...this isnt a cycle track!" despite standing right next to the sign that denotes it as such.

So answer you're own questions:
- Do you obey priorities at junctions? Or are you one of the few drivers who like to pull out on me as I approach or head around roundabouts?
- Are you courteous to other road users? Or are you like the bloke who recently drove past me, window down, too close and shouted an obscenity?
- etc, etc...

The Marshalls have every right to control traffic where safety is concerned. Part of your agreement under use of the roads (both via licence and according to the road traffic related acts) is to comply with those empowered to direct traffic.

to answer your comments.

firstly, if the Forest is for everyone, then I have as much right to be on it as you.

Secondly, I have read what has been posted on cycling websites, such as the one detailing the triathlon due to be held this spring and passed comment as a result

Thirdly, I do know my highway code, thank you, for example there is no difference in meaning between flashing your headlamps & sounding your horn

I do drive courteously. I have not only driven, but ridden cycles and motorcycles, driven commercially, and have only twice received 3 points on my licence in 35 years - 42mph in 30 zone and being stationary within a pedestrian crossing zone, never had a serious accident, and you can count the number of fault accidents I have been involved in, on the fingers of one hand.

As a walker, I have more right to be on the open Forest than cyclists, also to use footpaths and pavements. I repeatedly am at risk from cyclists who ride at high speed along them and on the receiving end of abuse when "I get in their way" Such as the response to "Mind my dog, please" Cyclist response - one fingered salute "F***off, f***off, f***right off, with such venom, that spit flew around like an enraged camel.

I do not own, or ride a horse, but listening to them, they have exactly the same complaint, that the racing cycle fraternity show them no consideration as well

downfader wrote:

kennethwfd wrote:

geoff51 wrote:

Frogham Ferret wrote:
While off road competitive anything should be severely limited in the Forest especially during the bird nesting season, it's the cylcist on or off road who racwe ( illegally) with no thought for others that are a big nuisance.
The Park policy is for quiet enjoyment, not competitive sports.

hear hear!!

This the essence of why we object to these cycle events.

Wish I'd written the last sentence.

Hope you are aware of what is being proposed. Organisers of these events are trying to change the law in order to be able to hold them without police authorisation. They will be able to close roads in order for these events to take place. Marshals at these events will have powers to stop or divert other traffic

No, thats not what is happening at all. The current legislation makes it too hard to organise sporting events (that includes distance running like half marathons too). The changes seek to smooth the way things work as there is far too much red tape.

Marshalls already have this power under certain Police co-operation. The information is on British Cycling's website.

And you havent yet answered your own "criteria" that you bemoaned ealier.

what "criteria" have I not answered.

Oh, and have you explained why the New Forest is "ideal" for holding organised cycle events?

Thirdly, this information was taken from bikehub.co.uk regarding proposals to bring the rest of the UK in line with Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man regarding motor racing, Organisers of cycle events hope that they will benefit if this legislation is passed

Re marshalls. the following has been cut and pasted from britishcycling.org.u
k

The situation with cycle race Marshals has now changed considerably within Wales. Welsh Cycling can no longer ask its members, or anyone else for that matter, to stand on a public road and act as a marshal who stops or directs traffic or pedestrians. Members can still act as marshals on events but your powers are limited, relying heavily on the good nature of the public. We have all experienced an irrate driver who is not willing to stop and wished we had the powers to do so.

The law is very clear that in order to carry out such a task the persons must be empowered to do so by legislation e.g. Police Officer, Police Community Support Officers (PCSO's). If anyone stops or directs traffic or pedestrians without lawful authority will be committing an offence

?? confused - all I'm trying to do is ascertain the facts

This is just what we Forest inhabitants and some event organisers are trying to do. A few of the organisers have recognised the genuinely severe problems being caused to residents and commoners by mass cycle rides on narrow, steep lanes, and are taking steps to educate their riders on the special environment of this smallest, most densely populated National Park with the most special "designations", such as SSSIs (Sites of Special Scientific Interest). We need all organisers to take part. In return commoners are cooperating, such as by changing the date of the pony drift to avoid clashing with a large event. The NPA is seeking ways of combining with affected parishes to educate residents of the Forest and cyclists alike on getting on better together.
By the way, the Sportive under discussion is run entirely on roads, and the entry is capped at 1,200. These types of events are called "non-competitive", but all riders are timed and a large proportion are riding against the clock, the élite definitely trying to win, so there is a strong element of competition, which does push them to ride "illegally" pretty often - 4 abreast, on the wrong side of the road, too fast down steep, narrow roads and round blind bends, preventing residents from exiting their gateways, and so on. Look at the videos on the websites. Riders need to recognise that they must occasionally have a minute or two added to their time because of the need to wait for a commoner to drive his stock along the road. The commoner, like other residents, will do his best to avoid the event, but it is not always possible, so please watch your language, cyclists!