Council staff and teachers given full pay for snow day (From Daily Echo)

Continuing to jump on the conservative lead "public sector bashing" then Echo? With this and the ghoulish, sensationalistic reporting of a non suspicious death on Tuesday this paper is quickly going downhill. What ever happened to the quality local journalism that graced these pages? So very disappointing.

Why did SCC state Cantell school would be opening last Friday and then let children go home at 10.00am?!
Many struggled getting children to school to then be told an hour and a half later it was closing!
Maybe they had to show every effort to open in order to justify paying all teachers and staff full pay.
Please could they then reimburse parents who had to take time off work to collect their children and actually lost pay?

Rockhopper wrote:
Why did SCC state Cantell school would be opening last Friday and then let children go home at 10.00am?!
Many struggled getting children to school to then be told an hour and a half later it was closing!
Maybe they had to show every effort to open in order to justify paying all teachers and staff full pay.
Please could they then reimburse parents who had to take time off work to collect their children and actually lost pay?

Could it possibly be that this decision was taken by the school, who were 'on the spot' to take the decision, and not someone in the civic offices?

Had you considered that as conditions appeared to be worsening, they took the decision so that children could get home in safety?

Could it possibly be that you just wanted to have another bellyache about SCC?

The council is hard enough up without this. Most staff wouldn't have a problem with making the time up or even taking it off their flexi time.

Newlands School was closed due to weight of snow wrecking the guttering, rendering the outside unsafe. The staff still went in, and again the following day to clear the playground and attempt to make it safe for the parents that complained about the school being closed. How many of the parents offered help? None.

The teachers and staff deserve every penny they get, it's not in their job description to clear snow but they did.

I can't speak for other areas of council staff but I'm sure the majority of them would do the same.

Linesman wrote:

Rockhopper wrote: Why did SCC state Cantell school would be opening last Friday and then let children go home at 10.00am?! Many struggled getting children to school to then be told an hour and a half later it was closing! Maybe they had to show every effort to open in order to justify paying all teachers and staff full pay. Please could they then reimburse parents who had to take time off work to collect their children and actually lost pay?

Could it possibly be that this decision was taken by the school, who were 'on the spot' to take the decision, and not someone in the civic offices? Had you considered that as conditions appeared to be worsening, they took the decision so that children could get home in safety? Could it possibly be that you just wanted to have another bellyache about SCC?

that would be common sense - not as much fun as having a good moan

" In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time"

This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

I deplore the tone used in this article.

If schools and settings close, then it is not the decision of individual staff members, and there is no reason why they should lose out.

If the school or setting remains open and individual staff cannot make it in perhaps there is a case for requiring they take the time unpaid or as holiday, but heads should be free to make a reasonable judgement based on the safety of their staff and pupils and parents, without such a silly backlash.

However, quite frankly, teachers and early years professionals do so much unpaid overtime, which minimum staffing levels and budgetary pressures mean it is unrealistic for them to claim, that the taxpayer gets an excellent deal from them. It is mean spirited to suggest they should be punished financially when their place of work is unable to open for very good safety reasons.

In last friday's snowfall getting in was only part of the problem. Just as important a consideration is the ability of parents and staff to get home safely. When snow continues falling during the day, the effectiveness of gritting the roads is lost, and snow compacts to even more dangerous ice. Heads need to look at the forecast, and make a judgement on how safe the conditions will be at the end of the day, and what transport services will be running. Buses had stopped by mid morning last friday, and some staff which did make the extraordinary effort come in to schools to help communicate with parents ended up walking for miles on slippery ice and snow just to get home, risking injury as it was. It would have been much worse if they had to do this after dark when conditions were much icier. Think of the cost to the public sector of people taking time off with fractured hips, wrists and elbows, and I am sure you will quickly realise that brief closures are sensible AND cost effective.

It was irresponsible for any school or setting to remain open last friday, and it is appalling to pressurise heads and staff with the sort of nonsense that is in this article.

Most workers take the day off when conditions are as they were last friday, whether public or private sector.

And as it is, you can bet that most teachers and early years professionals spent the time "off" catching up on marking and planning that they are not given sufficient time to do in working hours anyway.

A suggestion in the article is that if some staff are able to make it in, the schools and nurseries should remain open - this does not take account of the fact that staff need to be able to get home again, nurseries need to be able to maintain minimum staff to child ratios, and what happens when parents cant make it back to school in time to pick up their children? Yes, those few staff will be expected to stay after closing till parents arrive, perhaps hours late if conditions are bad, and then those staff, who may themselves rely on public transport, may be stranded and unable to get home themselves.

People should have a heart and think with some common sense about this. Heads do not make decisions to close lightly.

elvisimo wrote:

Linesman wrote:

Rockhopper wrote: Why did SCC state Cantell school would be opening last Friday and then let children go home at 10.00am?! Many struggled getting children to school to then be told an hour and a half later it was closing! Maybe they had to show every effort to open in order to justify paying all teachers and staff full pay. Please could they then reimburse parents who had to take time off work to collect their children and actually lost pay?

Could it possibly be that this decision was taken by the school, who were 'on the spot' to take the decision, and not someone in the civic offices? Had you considered that as conditions appeared to be worsening, they took the decision so that children could get home in safety? Could it possibly be that you just wanted to have another bellyache about SCC?

that would be common sense - not as much fun as having a good moan

Like the 70 or more other SCC schools you close completely preventing thousands of journeys to and from the school which put children far more at risk than sitting in a classroom!
Whether it was the school or SCC whoever made the decision to open for for just 90 minutes is incompetent to say the least.

Most of these schools are Academies and so are not longer under Scc.

They didnt lose any money, but anyone ele who was forced to stay at home because of school closures or because they didnt grit the roads did lose money.
Sounds about right.

Rockhopper wrote:
Why did SCC state Cantell school would be opening last Friday and then let children go home at 10.00am?!
Many struggled getting children to school to then be told an hour and a half later it was closing!
Maybe they had to show every effort to open in order to justify paying all teachers and staff full pay.
Please could they then reimburse parents who had to take time off work to collect their children and actually lost pay?

Rockhopper,

Read my post above, and also the following

Heads need to see how the conditions develop before they make the decision to close.

I agree it would have been better looking at the forecast for all schools and settings to have announced the evening before that they would be closed on friday, so parents would have known there was no point struggling in, and could try and arrange alternative childcare before the snow fell. I would suggest sensible parents should have made that judgement on thursday night to consider contingency arrangement for themselves anyway, as there was clearly a good chance there would be disruption.

However, you must also remember that Southampton is on the coast, and last friday the local weather reports suggested that there may be no snow on the coastal strip, despite the national forecast being more pessimistic.

On friday once it was obvious that snow was falling heavily, and that it was laying, and from the forecast it would continue to fall heavily during much of the day, then it was clear that the roads would be dangerous, as grit wasnt likely to be effective.

Buses were halted mid morning and I seem to remember reports on local radio that some bus drivers were disappointed that the buses hadnt been cancelled earlier - bosses were probably trying to do their best, but as the day progressed it was obvious that they had to stop buses running.

All buses and schools should have announced they were closing the next day when an orange warning was declared the day beforehand and the police stated that drivers should avoid all unnecessary journeys.

This should be taken to mean that no drivers should be on the roads unless it is an emergency.

You should also remember that only main roads are gritted these days, many residential streets on which people live are entirely unsafe to drive on in the event of snow or ice, and many schools and setting are not on gritted roads.

The simple solution is that we need to spend far more to provide a comprehensive gritting service over residential roads as well as major routes. But even this is not foolproof as in certain conditions the grit will not be effective.

Unless the roads are safe from door to door, and unless public transport is running, noone can possibly expect schools and settings to remain open in snow, and for employees to be able to get to their workplaces whether in the private or public sector.

nedscrumpo wrote:
The council is hard enough up without this. Most staff wouldn't have a problem with making the time up or even taking it off their flexi time.

You have got to be kidding. Most staff would have ended up working on marking and planning at home anyway. Many staff who did try to make it in, or managed to get in would have spent much of the day trying to get back home safely, particularly those who rely on public transport.

There is no additional cost to the council, the wages paid would have been paid anyway.

Where you could have significant costs is if people injure themselves on the premises falling on ice, whether staff or parents or children - just imagine the compensation claims. If staff injure themselves trying to get in, again, imagine the sick pay.

Trying to stay open in the event of snow is a false economy, unless the gritting services are massively expanded to cover where people love and work, and not just main routes to allow emergency services through.

Rockhopper wrote:

elvisimo wrote:

Linesman wrote:

Rockhopper wrote: Why did SCC state Cantell school would be opening last Friday and then let children go home at 10.00am?! Many struggled getting children to school to then be told an hour and a half later it was closing! Maybe they had to show every effort to open in order to justify paying all teachers and staff full pay. Please could they then reimburse parents who had to take time off work to collect their children and actually lost pay?

Could it possibly be that this decision was taken by the school, who were 'on the spot' to take the decision, and not someone in the civic offices? Had you considered that as conditions appeared to be worsening, they took the decision so that children could get home in safety? Could it possibly be that you just wanted to have another bellyache about SCC?

that would be common sense - not as much fun as having a good moan

Like the 70 or more other SCC schools you close completely preventing thousands of journeys to and from the school which put children far more at risk than sitting in a classroom!
Whether it was the school or SCC whoever made the decision to open for for just 90 minutes is incompetent to say the least.

You want to send them your CV. Your clairvoyance and insight would obviously prove useful to the 'incompetent ' school staff who obviously have nothing better to do than inconvenience parents.

Sotonians_lets_pull_
together wrote:

nedscrumpo wrote:
The council is hard enough up without this. Most staff wouldn't have a problem with making the time up or even taking it off their flexi time.

You have got to be kidding. Most staff would have ended up working on marking and planning at home anyway. Many staff who did try to make it in, or managed to get in would have spent much of the day trying to get back home safely, particularly those who rely on public transport.

There is no additional cost to the council, the wages paid would have been paid anyway.

Where you could have significant costs is if people injure themselves on the premises falling on ice, whether staff or parents or children - just imagine the compensation claims. If staff injure themselves trying to get in, again, imagine the sick pay.

Trying to stay open in the event of snow is a false economy, unless the gritting services are massively expanded to cover where people love and work, and not just main routes to allow emergency services through.

Of course, I meant where people LIVE and work, not love and work :-p

Rockhopper wrote:

elvisimo wrote:

Linesman wrote:

Rockhopper wrote: Why did SCC state Cantell school would be opening last Friday and then let children go home at 10.00am?! Many struggled getting children to school to then be told an hour and a half later it was closing! Maybe they had to show every effort to open in order to justify paying all teachers and staff full pay. Please could they then reimburse parents who had to take time off work to collect their children and actually lost pay?

Could it possibly be that this decision was taken by the school, who were 'on the spot' to take the decision, and not someone in the civic offices? Had you considered that as conditions appeared to be worsening, they took the decision so that children could get home in safety? Could it possibly be that you just wanted to have another bellyache about SCC?

that would be common sense - not as much fun as having a good moan

Like the 70 or more other SCC schools you close completely preventing thousands of journeys to and from the school which put children far more at risk than sitting in a classroom!
Whether it was the school or SCC whoever made the decision to open for for just 90 minutes is incompetent to say the least.

But heads are between a rock and a hard place.

If they dont try and open, and wait to see what the conditions are like, then what if the snow hadnt settled on the coast? And even if it did, people would be quick to criticise schools for closing before even a flake had fallen, even though it seemed pretty likely with amber warnings across most of the country that disruption was probable.

Most parents will have had the sense that morning to call the schools and settings before leaving, or check the websites, or local radio, and realise that friday was not a good day to try to drop the kids off.

It is the keenness of the heads and staff to try to do their best for parents which led to some schools being open for a short time on fiday morning.

Who seriously could have gone to a school or nursery in Southampton on friday expecting it to be open all day... it simply was not realistic..... but schools should not be lambasted for trying their best.

Just another reader wrote:
Newlands School was closed due to weight of snow wrecking the guttering, rendering the outside unsafe. The staff still went in, and again the following day to clear the playground and attempt to make it safe for the parents that complained about the school being closed. How many of the parents offered help? None.

The teachers and staff deserve every penny they get, it's not in their job description to clear snow but they did.

I can't speak for other areas of council staff but I'm sure the majority of them would do the same.

Well said!

bigfella777 wrote:
They didnt lose any money, but anyone ele who was forced to stay at home because of school closures or because they didnt grit the roads did lose money.
Sounds about right.

We are all "victims" of the decision not to grit roads on which homes and workplaces lie, let alone main routes.

If there is any criticism, it should be levelled at the provision of appropriate gritting services.

We can all either demand and pay for gritting everywhere, or we can bear the cost of closure of services and transport and workplaces when it snows.

But if we are not prepared to pay for universal gritting of roads, then it is unreasonable to blame workers in schools and nurseries when they cannot travel to and from home safely, and unreasonable to blame heads who have to take into consideration the safety of pupils, parents and staff in being able to get to and home from schools and nurseries.

My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

bigfella777 wrote:
They didnt lose any money, but anyone ele who was forced to stay at home because of school closures or because they didnt grit the roads did lose money.
Sounds about right.

To be fair, the council had about a hour window of opportunity to grit all the major roads in the city due the rain stopping and the snow starting, I wish sometimes would give the council a break, it's not their fault they couldn't grit.

I got to work after a hour and half trudge, to be told at 11am to go home on TOIL, basically my time, when I told former colleagues and friends I at SCC they took to pi$$ saying they didn't even attempt to go to work and were snuggled up in bed (whilst on full).

I suggest Cllr Simon Letts contact Capita too deduct a days wage or holiday from all those who didn't bother to rock up and talk to all line managers and deduct 7 hours TOIL of from those staff who don't have holiday left.

Disgusted council tax payer who had the micky taken out of him

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

Loosehead,

Come off it, I know you are sensible poster, read my posts above on this and reconsider your comments.

Many people live many miles away from schools and nurseries these days, whether we are talking about the staff or parents, and it is entirely unrealistic to stay open if that is going to put staff or parents or children at risk .

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

It is not just the workers, it is the children that they are responsible for.

When people were advised on radio and tv not to make unnecessary journeys, and warning that there was the prospect of more snow to come, the sensible decision was to send the children home, while they are still able to get home.

Your neighbour was an Adult, and as an adult, he should know his capabilities and is responsible for his own decisions.

We all remember how things were when we were kids.

Walk for miles to fetch a pail of water from the village pump, and find it was frozen solid by the time we got home.

Wearing short trousers, that were hand-me-downs, with more patches than original material.

Single glazing.

Huddled round a candle for both heat and light.

So cold that when we had a pee, it was frozen before it hit the water, that had frozen over, in the pan.

Yes! We were tough, but we were sturdy, living on one square meal a day.

A Bleedin OXO Cube!

Outside of the Box wrote:

bigfella777 wrote:
They didnt lose any money, but anyone ele who was forced to stay at home because of school closures or because they didnt grit the roads did lose money.
Sounds about right.

To be fair, the council had about a hour window of opportunity to grit all the major roads in the city due the rain stopping and the snow starting, I wish sometimes would give the council a break, it's not their fault they couldn't grit.

I got to work after a hour and half trudge, to be told at 11am to go home on TOIL, basically my time, when I told former colleagues and friends I at SCC they took to pi$$ saying they didn't even attempt to go to work and were snuggled up in bed (whilst on full).

I suggest Cllr Simon Letts contact Capita too deduct a days wage or holiday from all those who didn't bother to rock up and talk to all line managers and deduct 7 hours TOIL of from those staff who don't have holiday left.

Disgusted council tax payer who had the micky taken out of him

You recognise that gritting was difficult given the conditions.

So just because a mate or two of yours with perhaps a less than wonderful work ethic wound you up (and lets face it, every work place has a few of those), you wish to financially penalise many people who were told not to come in by their line managers because it was considered unsafe for them to do so, and they would not be able to make it home safely, and also disrespect the many that did put themselves at risk trying to get in and had to get home again without the benefit of public transport which was pretty much paralysed.

Seriously?

This is not a public vs private sector debate - many people in the private sector would have been paid also.

If you turned up for work, and were prepared to work, maybe the issue you should be addressing is the one with your employer. If they closed the work place and sent you home, it doesnt sound reasonable not to pay you. Read the following, particularly the part about "My workplace is closed. What then?".

http://www.bbc.co.uk
/news/business-11886
185

However, if you agreed to the arrangement, that may be then down to you.

southy wrote:
" In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time"

This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

The law states that you do not have to pay them.

due to the timing of the snow, it was sensible to close the schools on the Friday, but teachers could still work from home and do marking/planning/ etc etc , there was no need for a "day off" and certainly no reason to stop a day's pay.

George4th wrote:

southy wrote: " In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time" This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

The law states that you do not have to pay them.

George is right, I'm a civil servant and we never get paid if we can't get in because of snow.

That might be why, last Friday, I managed to walk and bus to the central station, train to London, walk to the office, and then do the same journey in reverse at the end of the day. If I'd thought I could stay at home on full pay I might not have tried so hard.

Prisoners were also paid even though some of the prison staff couldn't make it in to supervise. It wasn't their fault as they were all there!

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:
" In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time"

This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

The law states that you do not have to pay them.

For most reason yes but inclement weather, rules say you pay them.

southy wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:
" In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time"

This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

The law states that you do not have to pay them.

For most reason yes but inclement weather, rules say you pay them.

The law says you do not have to pay them. Go ask an Employment Lawyer and he/she will give you the same answer.

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:
" In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time"

This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

The law states that you do not have to pay them.

For most reason yes but inclement weather, rules say you pay them.

The law says you do not have to pay them. Go ask an Employment Lawyer and he/she will give you the same answer.

George4th,

Sorry I disagree, and so it seems does the BBC, and ACAS in advice given to the public on the legal situation

http://www.bbc.co.uk
/news/business-11886
185

"My workplace is closed. What then?

In these circumstances, you are entitled to pay. In addition, your employer cannot require you to take the time as annual leave. Don't get the sledges out yet, though. You could be expected to work from home or from another workplace, if that is possible in your job."

Sotonians_lets_pull_
together wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

Loosehead,

Come off it, I know you are sensible poster, read my posts above on this and reconsider your comments.

Many people live many miles away from schools and nurseries these days, whether we are talking about the staff or parents, and it is entirely unrealistic to stay open if that is going to put staff or parents or children at risk .

Thank you for that!
I was walking to Sainsburies with a woman who was told the middle school was open only for her & many other parents to turn up with their children to be told it was shut as the teachers couldn't get there so that's why I said why couldn't they get there?
i quite understand that if your told not to try to get to work it isn't your fault & you should expect to get paid but the article never said that so if that's the case I apologise for my post

Linesman wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

It is not just the workers, it is the children that they are responsible for.

When people were advised on radio and tv not to make unnecessary journeys, and warning that there was the prospect of more snow to come, the sensible decision was to send the children home, while they are still able to get home.

Your neighbour was an Adult, and as an adult, he should know his capabilities and is responsible for his own decisions.

We all remember how things were when we were kids.

Walk for miles to fetch a pail of water from the village pump, and find it was frozen solid by the time we got home.

Wearing short trousers, that were hand-me-downs, with more patches than original material.

Single glazing.

Huddled round a candle for both heat and light.

So cold that when we had a pee, it was frozen before it hit the water, that had frozen over, in the pan.

Yes! We were tough, but we were sturdy, living on one square meal a day.

A Bleedin OXO Cube!

linesman I've tried to give you a rough idea of my history but if this is a sarcastic dig at me well maybe you should really look at exactly how molly coddled todays people are?
OH! I got porridge if lucky for breakfast school dinners & bread & dripping for tea so sorry we couldn't afford an OXO cube.
We hear about people desperate for work yet nearly every one knows the roads were the safest place to be.
A guy from the Hampshire council said the salt wouldn't work unless we drove on it so no excuse for car drivers.
as I've said parents actually took their children to school only to then be told it was shut as the teachers reckoned they couldn't get there

Sotonians_lets_pull_
together wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:
" In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time"

This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

The law states that you do not have to pay them.

For most reason yes but inclement weather, rules say you pay them.

The law says you do not have to pay them. Go ask an Employment Lawyer and he/she will give you the same answer.

George4th,

Sorry I disagree, and so it seems does the BBC, and ACAS in advice given to the public on the legal situation

http://www.bbc.co.uk

/news/business-11886

185

"My workplace is closed. What then?

In these circumstances, you are entitled to pay. In addition, your employer cannot require you to take the time as annual leave. Don't get the sledges out yet, though. You could be expected to work from home or from another workplace, if that is possible in your job."

Your comment is misleading.

"According to the employment advice and conciliation service Acas, in the majority of cases, you are not automatically entitled to be paid if you cannot get to work. "

ACAS give the ONLY concrete EXCEPTION as your place of work being closed, which is common sense and you wouldn't need a Lawyer to work that one out!

loosehead wrote:

Sotonians_lets_pull_

together wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

Loosehead,

Come off it, I know you are sensible poster, read my posts above on this and reconsider your comments.

Many people live many miles away from schools and nurseries these days, whether we are talking about the staff or parents, and it is entirely unrealistic to stay open if that is going to put staff or parents or children at risk .

Thank you for that!
I was walking to Sainsburies with a woman who was told the middle school was open only for her & many other parents to turn up with their children to be told it was shut as the teachers couldn't get there so that's why I said why couldn't they get there?
i quite understand that if your told not to try to get to work it isn't your fault & you should expect to get paid but the article never said that so if that's the case I apologise for my post

When parents are told, the reasons will go round like chinese whispers, how many will want to listen to a full discussion of why the decision needed to be made, if they are grumpy about having to pick their kids up - it is the grumpy ones you will hear complaining, those with a bit of common sense who understand the situation will not make a fuss.

While it will be true that some cannot make it in, if the workplace is closed by decision of management.

The council could try and keep places open with one or two skeleton staff, and then say we are not going to pay the staff - but how fair and reasonable is that? They wouldnt be able to take many children, would not be able to deliver an effective service, the council would be at risk of higher costs from workplace injuries and compensation claims if staff or parents injure themselves, and those staff local enough to try and make it in would end up overworked, overstressed, quite likely be hanging around for ages after normal closing waiting for parents who cant make it in after dark when the ice risk is that much greater with lower temperatures, and then those heroic staff who have coped with this all day may then find themselves unable to get home if public transport is still running.

No, the only sensible, cost effective, and safe decision in such circumstances is to close the workplace, providing the conditions at the time and those anticipated up to and including when parents and staff will need to return home genuinely merit it.

George4th wrote:

Sotonians_lets_pull_

together wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:
" In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time"

This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

The law states that you do not have to pay them.

For most reason yes but inclement weather, rules say you pay them.

The law says you do not have to pay them. Go ask an Employment Lawyer and he/she will give you the same answer.

George4th,

Sorry I disagree, and so it seems does the BBC, and ACAS in advice given to the public on the legal situation

http://www.bbc.co.uk


/news/business-11886


185

"My workplace is closed. What then?

In these circumstances, you are entitled to pay. In addition, your employer cannot require you to take the time as annual leave. Don't get the sledges out yet, though. You could be expected to work from home or from another workplace, if that is possible in your job."

Your comment is misleading.

"According to the employment advice and conciliation service Acas, in the majority of cases, you are not automatically entitled to be paid if you cannot get to work. "

ACAS give the ONLY concrete EXCEPTION as your place of work being closed, which is common sense and you wouldn't need a Lawyer to work that one out!

When I worked for BAT a guy phoned in saying he wouldn't be able to get to work that day as his car wouldn't start three hours after he was suppose to start.
we were paid if off sick but they stopped his pay as he lived in Imperial Avenue & it was a 5 minute walk to the BAT gates.
So unless the schools & the Council told their workers not to bother going to work why were these paid?
Did those who managed to get to work receive either an extra days pay or holiday?
otherwise is this fair to those who did manage to get in?

Sotonians_lets_pull_
together wrote:

loosehead wrote:

Sotonians_lets_pull_


together wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

Loosehead,

Come off it, I know you are sensible poster, read my posts above on this and reconsider your comments.

Many people live many miles away from schools and nurseries these days, whether we are talking about the staff or parents, and it is entirely unrealistic to stay open if that is going to put staff or parents or children at risk .

Thank you for that!
I was walking to Sainsburies with a woman who was told the middle school was open only for her & many other parents to turn up with their children to be told it was shut as the teachers couldn't get there so that's why I said why couldn't they get there?
i quite understand that if your told not to try to get to work it isn't your fault & you should expect to get paid but the article never said that so if that's the case I apologise for my post

When parents are told, the reasons will go round like chinese whispers, how many will want to listen to a full discussion of why the decision needed to be made, if they are grumpy about having to pick their kids up - it is the grumpy ones you will hear complaining, those with a bit of common sense who understand the situation will not make a fuss.

While it will be true that some cannot make it in, if the workplace is closed by decision of management.

The council could try and keep places open with one or two skeleton staff, and then say we are not going to pay the staff - but how fair and reasonable is that? They wouldnt be able to take many children, would not be able to deliver an effective service, the council would be at risk of higher costs from workplace injuries and compensation claims if staff or parents injure themselves, and those staff local enough to try and make it in would end up overworked, overstressed, quite likely be hanging around for ages after normal closing waiting for parents who cant make it in after dark when the ice risk is that much greater with lower temperatures, and then those heroic staff who have coped with this all day may then find themselves unable to get home if public transport is still running.

No, the only sensible, cost effective, and safe decision in such circumstances is to close the workplace, providing the conditions at the time and those anticipated up to and including when parents and staff will need to return home genuinely merit it.

"While it will be true that some cannot make it in, if the workplace is closed by decision of management."

I didnt finish th sentence, should have gone on to read "all staff are eligible to be paid"

Sotonians_lets_pull_
together wrote:

Outside of the Box wrote:

bigfella777 wrote: They didnt lose any money, but anyone ele who was forced to stay at home because of school closures or because they didnt grit the roads did lose money. Sounds about right.

To be fair, the council had about a hour window of opportunity to grit all the major roads in the city due the rain stopping and the snow starting, I wish sometimes would give the council a break, it's not their fault they couldn't grit. I got to work after a hour and half trudge, to be told at 11am to go home on TOIL, basically my time, when I told former colleagues and friends I at SCC they took to pi$$ saying they didn't even attempt to go to work and were snuggled up in bed (whilst on full). I suggest Cllr Simon Letts contact Capita too deduct a days wage or holiday from all those who didn't bother to rock up and talk to all line managers and deduct 7 hours TOIL of from those staff who don't have holiday left. Disgusted council tax payer who had the micky taken out of him

You recognise that gritting was difficult given the conditions. So just because a mate or two of yours with perhaps a less than wonderful work ethic wound you up (and lets face it, every work place has a few of those), you wish to financially penalise many people who were told not to come in by their line managers because it was considered unsafe for them to do so, and they would not be able to make it home safely, and also disrespect the many that did put themselves at risk trying to get in and had to get home again without the benefit of public transport which was pretty much paralysed. Seriously? This is not a public vs private sector debate - many people in the private sector would have been paid also. If you turned up for work, and were prepared to work, maybe the issue you should be addressing is the one with your employer. If they closed the work place and sent you home, it doesnt sound reasonable not to pay you. Read the following, particularly the part about "My workplace is closed. What then?". http://www.bbc.co.uk /news/business-11886 185 However, if you agreed to the arrangement, that may be then down to you.

Out of 6 staff in my team, 4 made it in. The two who didn't live too far away to walk and public transport was not an option / running. Although we were told to go home at 1030, we never left till two, and then only to ensure we got home in daylight. Two drove, one walked 3.5 miles each way, and one who had been lucky enough to get a bus in had to pay for a taxi home because there were no buses running by then. Of the rest of my family, all workNot a bad effort. So stick that in the private sector, 3/4 never made it in at all, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

loosehead wrote:

George4th wrote:

Sotonians_lets_pull_


together wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:
" In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time"

This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

The law states that you do not have to pay them.

For most reason yes but inclement weather, rules say you pay them.

The law says you do not have to pay them. Go ask an Employment Lawyer and he/she will give you the same answer.

George4th,

Sorry I disagree, and so it seems does the BBC, and ACAS in advice given to the public on the legal situation

http://www.bbc.co.uk



/news/business-11886



185

"My workplace is closed. What then?

In these circumstances, you are entitled to pay. In addition, your employer cannot require you to take the time as annual leave. Don't get the sledges out yet, though. You could be expected to work from home or from another workplace, if that is possible in your job."

Your comment is misleading.

"According to the employment advice and conciliation service Acas, in the majority of cases, you are not automatically entitled to be paid if you cannot get to work. "

ACAS give the ONLY concrete EXCEPTION as your place of work being closed, which is common sense and you wouldn't need a Lawyer to work that one out!

When I worked for BAT a guy phoned in saying he wouldn't be able to get to work that day as his car wouldn't start three hours after he was suppose to start.
we were paid if off sick but they stopped his pay as he lived in Imperial Avenue & it was a 5 minute walk to the BAT gates.
So unless the schools & the Council told their workers not to bother going to work why were these paid?
Did those who managed to get to work receive either an extra days pay or holiday?
otherwise is this fair to those who did manage to get in?

Well of course it isnt "fair" to those who manage to come in, they get nothing extra for their efforts, no thanks. But many are public minded and do their best to do what they can, and make it as easy for parents as possible, if they possibly can open, and want to be there to meet parents who show up without checking if the setting is open, to answer phones, and speak to parents. They would stay until the decision is made to close the setting, and then would return home, perhaps after doing their best to clear the car park for the next day.

As soon as the decision has been made that the setting must close, all staff are eligible for pay. The fact that a few brave or local souls try and go above and beyond at the start of the day shouldnt be used to criticise everyone else.

All the dedicated staff who come in to do their best get is criticism in the paper like this, saying they dont deserve to be paid

It would be so simple for noone to turn up, and force the decision on the head that they had to close the school or nursery

Why people cannot simply think the best of people, and have some kindness for those who show kindness to their children is beyond me.

thinklikealocal wrote:

Sotonians_lets_pull_ together wrote:

Outside of the Box wrote:

bigfella777 wrote: They didnt lose any money, but anyone ele who was forced to stay at home because of school closures or because they didnt grit the roads did lose money. Sounds about right.

To be fair, the council had about a hour window of opportunity to grit all the major roads in the city due the rain stopping and the snow starting, I wish sometimes would give the council a break, it's not their fault they couldn't grit. I got to work after a hour and half trudge, to be told at 11am to go home on TOIL, basically my time, when I told former colleagues and friends I at SCC they took to pi$$ saying they didn't even attempt to go to work and were snuggled up in bed (whilst on full). I suggest Cllr Simon Letts contact Capita too deduct a days wage or holiday from all those who didn't bother to rock up and talk to all line managers and deduct 7 hours TOIL of from those staff who don't have holiday left. Disgusted council tax payer who had the micky taken out of him

You recognise that gritting was difficult given the conditions. So just because a mate or two of yours with perhaps a less than wonderful work ethic wound you up (and lets face it, every work place has a few of those), you wish to financially penalise many people who were told not to come in by their line managers because it was considered unsafe for them to do so, and they would not be able to make it home safely, and also disrespect the many that did put themselves at risk trying to get in and had to get home again without the benefit of public transport which was pretty much paralysed. Seriously? This is not a public vs private sector debate - many people in the private sector would have been paid also. If you turned up for work, and were prepared to work, maybe the issue you should be addressing is the one with your employer. If they closed the work place and sent you home, it doesnt sound reasonable not to pay you. Read the following, particularly the part about "My workplace is closed. What then?". http://www.bbc.co.uk /news/business-11886 185 However, if you agreed to the arrangement, that may be then down to you.

Out of 6 staff in my team, 4 made it in. The two who didn't live too far away to walk and public transport was not an option / running. Although we were told to go home at 1030, we never left till two, and then only to ensure we got home in daylight. Two drove, one walked 3.5 miles each way, and one who had been lucky enough to get a bus in had to pay for a taxi home because there were no buses running by then. Of the rest of my family, all workNot a bad effort. So stick that in the private sector, 3/4 never made it in at all, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

Apologies, the end of that post got a bit 'keyboard' confused, but I'm sure you get my drift.

thinklikealocal wrote:

thinklikealocal wrote:

Sotonians_lets_pull_ together wrote:

Outside of the Box wrote:

bigfella777 wrote: They didnt lose any money, but anyone ele who was forced to stay at home because of school closures or because they didnt grit the roads did lose money. Sounds about right.

To be fair, the council had about a hour window of opportunity to grit all the major roads in the city due the rain stopping and the snow starting, I wish sometimes would give the council a break, it's not their fault they couldn't grit. I got to work after a hour and half trudge, to be told at 11am to go home on TOIL, basically my time, when I told former colleagues and friends I at SCC they took to pi$$ saying they didn't even attempt to go to work and were snuggled up in bed (whilst on full). I suggest Cllr Simon Letts contact Capita too deduct a days wage or holiday from all those who didn't bother to rock up and talk to all line managers and deduct 7 hours TOIL of from those staff who don't have holiday left. Disgusted council tax payer who had the micky taken out of him

You recognise that gritting was difficult given the conditions. So just because a mate or two of yours with perhaps a less than wonderful work ethic wound you up (and lets face it, every work place has a few of those), you wish to financially penalise many people who were told not to come in by their line managers because it was considered unsafe for them to do so, and they would not be able to make it home safely, and also disrespect the many that did put themselves at risk trying to get in and had to get home again without the benefit of public transport which was pretty much paralysed. Seriously? This is not a public vs private sector debate - many people in the private sector would have been paid also. If you turned up for work, and were prepared to work, maybe the issue you should be addressing is the one with your employer. If they closed the work place and sent you home, it doesnt sound reasonable not to pay you. Read the following, particularly the part about "My workplace is closed. What then?". http://www.bbc.co.uk /news/business-11886 185 However, if you agreed to the arrangement, that may be then down to you.

Out of 6 staff in my team, 4 made it in. The two who didn't live too far away to walk and public transport was not an option / running. Although we were told to go home at 1030, we never left till two, and then only to ensure we got home in daylight. Two drove, one walked 3.5 miles each way, and one who had been lucky enough to get a bus in had to pay for a taxi home because there were no buses running by then. Of the rest of my family, all workNot a bad effort. So stick that in the private sector, 3/4 never made it in at all, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

Apologies, the end of that post got a bit 'keyboard' confused, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Excuse the pun!

Who cares? You get paid for sick days, why should snow days be any different?

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

Same old crap 'I know so and so who does this so my opinion matters'. I know you Southampton folk are insular but what about people who have to drive 20, 30, 40 miles or more to work, or get a bus, or the train? Why should they be penalised for circumstances out of their control?

loosehead wrote:

George4th wrote:

Sotonians_lets_pull_


together wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:
" In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time"

This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

The law states that you do not have to pay them.

For most reason yes but inclement weather, rules say you pay them.

The law says you do not have to pay them. Go ask an Employment Lawyer and he/she will give you the same answer.

George4th,

Sorry I disagree, and so it seems does the BBC, and ACAS in advice given to the public on the legal situation

http://www.bbc.co.uk



/news/business-11886



185

"My workplace is closed. What then?

In these circumstances, you are entitled to pay. In addition, your employer cannot require you to take the time as annual leave. Don't get the sledges out yet, though. You could be expected to work from home or from another workplace, if that is possible in your job."

Your comment is misleading.

"According to the employment advice and conciliation service Acas, in the majority of cases, you are not automatically entitled to be paid if you cannot get to work. "

ACAS give the ONLY concrete EXCEPTION as your place of work being closed, which is common sense and you wouldn't need a Lawyer to work that one out!

When I worked for BAT a guy phoned in saying he wouldn't be able to get to work that day as his car wouldn't start three hours after he was suppose to start.
we were paid if off sick but they stopped his pay as he lived in Imperial Avenue & it was a 5 minute walk to the BAT gates.
So unless the schools & the Council told their workers not to bother going to work why were these paid?
Did those who managed to get to work receive either an extra days pay or holiday?
otherwise is this fair to those who did manage to get in?

It is only the lazy, the unambitious and the bone idle who cop out (people with genuine excuses excluded!)

I've had enough reading this tripe.

I got into work as did 60% of my colleagues. Wanna know how? We mostly drove or rode bicycles, as usual. I travelled 11 miles, firstly untreated rural road, then motorway & finally A road. Others took similar routes. One or two didn't have the car or bike option so walked to meet colleagues & got a lift from a pre arranged meeting point.

So what is it that makes public sector staff unable to get into work when it snows? I assessed my circumstances, decreed it safe enough & got into work without a scratch.

Anything wrong with that?

Oh & we had snow on our gutters too. *rolls eyes*

Sotonians_lets_pull_
together wrote:
I deplore the tone used in this article.

If schools and settings close, then it is not the decision of individual staff members, and there is no reason why they should lose out.

If the school or setting remains open and individual staff cannot make it in perhaps there is a case for requiring they take the time unpaid or as holiday, but heads should be free to make a reasonable judgement based on the safety of their staff and pupils and parents, without such a silly backlash.

However, quite frankly, teachers and early years professionals do so much unpaid overtime, which minimum staffing levels and budgetary pressures mean it is unrealistic for them to claim, that the taxpayer gets an excellent deal from them. It is mean spirited to suggest they should be punished financially when their place of work is unable to open for very good safety reasons.

In last friday's snowfall getting in was only part of the problem. Just as important a consideration is the ability of parents and staff to get home safely. When snow continues falling during the day, the effectiveness of gritting the roads is lost, and snow compacts to even more dangerous ice. Heads need to look at the forecast, and make a judgement on how safe the conditions will be at the end of the day, and what transport services will be running. Buses had stopped by mid morning last friday, and some staff which did make the extraordinary effort come in to schools to help communicate with parents ended up walking for miles on slippery ice and snow just to get home, risking injury as it was. It would have been much worse if they had to do this after dark when conditions were much icier. Think of the cost to the public sector of people taking time off with fractured hips, wrists and elbows, and I am sure you will quickly realise that brief closures are sensible AND cost effective.

It was irresponsible for any school or setting to remain open last friday, and it is appalling to pressurise heads and staff with the sort of nonsense that is in this article.

Most workers take the day off when conditions are as they were last friday, whether public or private sector.

And as it is, you can bet that most teachers and early years professionals spent the time "off" catching up on marking and planning that they are not given sufficient time to do in working hours anyway.

A suggestion in the article is that if some staff are able to make it in, the schools and nurseries should remain open - this does not take account of the fact that staff need to be able to get home again, nurseries need to be able to maintain minimum staff to child ratios, and what happens when parents cant make it back to school in time to pick up their children? Yes, those few staff will be expected to stay after closing till parents arrive, perhaps hours late if conditions are bad, and then those staff, who may themselves rely on public transport, may be stranded and unable to get home themselves.

People should have a heart and think with some common sense about this. Heads do not make decisions to close lightly.

Entirely accurate.

Friday's snow meant school buses a couple of miles East of Southampton got stuck around Titchfield/Whiteley, one worker travelling by car from Fareham to Southampton Airport managed 3 miles in 2 hours then gave up and walked home. Teachers and others travelling in from outside the city would have been very delayed, if they got there at all, most cannot afford to live in the city, so it's no surprise few made it in.

When it's that bad non-essential mean's different things to different people, I stayed home, my 4x4 whilst capable would have been just as stuck, with all the lesser vehicles (and drivers in a lot of cases) blocking the roads. Add in the lazy school runners who HAVE to drive a 1/4 mile round trip to school, even when they have no disability, is it a surprise the roads end up getting blocked?

Then there's public transport, buses on 'green' 'economy' tyre's have almost no grip, compared to the tyre's of just a few years ago, the 'electric' trains struggle to pick-up power from the third rail, diesels with winter fuel may run OK, but you can't overtake an electric train in the way.

Pay the teachers, most will have used the time wisely, and plan to close earlier if the forecast is doubtful next time.

And don't forget afterwards a proper effort to clear pavements so people can walk safely would help enormously, as would not piling up snow in disabled car-parking spaces in car-parks...

Niel wrote:

Sotonians_lets_pull_

together wrote:
I deplore the tone used in this article.

If schools and settings close, then it is not the decision of individual staff members, and there is no reason why they should lose out.

If the school or setting remains open and individual staff cannot make it in perhaps there is a case for requiring they take the time unpaid or as holiday, but heads should be free to make a reasonable judgement based on the safety of their staff and pupils and parents, without such a silly backlash.

However, quite frankly, teachers and early years professionals do so much unpaid overtime, which minimum staffing levels and budgetary pressures mean it is unrealistic for them to claim, that the taxpayer gets an excellent deal from them. It is mean spirited to suggest they should be punished financially when their place of work is unable to open for very good safety reasons.

In last friday's snowfall getting in was only part of the problem. Just as important a consideration is the ability of parents and staff to get home safely. When snow continues falling during the day, the effectiveness of gritting the roads is lost, and snow compacts to even more dangerous ice. Heads need to look at the forecast, and make a judgement on how safe the conditions will be at the end of the day, and what transport services will be running. Buses had stopped by mid morning last friday, and some staff which did make the extraordinary effort come in to schools to help communicate with parents ended up walking for miles on slippery ice and snow just to get home, risking injury as it was. It would have been much worse if they had to do this after dark when conditions were much icier. Think of the cost to the public sector of people taking time off with fractured hips, wrists and elbows, and I am sure you will quickly realise that brief closures are sensible AND cost effective.

It was irresponsible for any school or setting to remain open last friday, and it is appalling to pressurise heads and staff with the sort of nonsense that is in this article.

Most workers take the day off when conditions are as they were last friday, whether public or private sector.

And as it is, you can bet that most teachers and early years professionals spent the time "off" catching up on marking and planning that they are not given sufficient time to do in working hours anyway.

A suggestion in the article is that if some staff are able to make it in, the schools and nurseries should remain open - this does not take account of the fact that staff need to be able to get home again, nurseries need to be able to maintain minimum staff to child ratios, and what happens when parents cant make it back to school in time to pick up their children? Yes, those few staff will be expected to stay after closing till parents arrive, perhaps hours late if conditions are bad, and then those staff, who may themselves rely on public transport, may be stranded and unable to get home themselves.

People should have a heart and think with some common sense about this. Heads do not make decisions to close lightly.

Entirely accurate.

Friday's snow meant school buses a couple of miles East of Southampton got stuck around Titchfield/Whiteley, one worker travelling by car from Fareham to Southampton Airport managed 3 miles in 2 hours then gave up and walked home. Teachers and others travelling in from outside the city would have been very delayed, if they got there at all, most cannot afford to live in the city, so it's no surprise few made it in.

When it's that bad non-essential mean's different things to different people, I stayed home, my 4x4 whilst capable would have been just as stuck, with all the lesser vehicles (and drivers in a lot of cases) blocking the roads. Add in the lazy school runners who HAVE to drive a 1/4 mile round trip to school, even when they have no disability, is it a surprise the roads end up getting blocked?

Then there's public transport, buses on 'green' 'economy' tyre's have almost no grip, compared to the tyre's of just a few years ago, the 'electric' trains struggle to pick-up power from the third rail, diesels with winter fuel may run OK, but you can't overtake an electric train in the way.

Pay the teachers, most will have used the time wisely, and plan to close earlier if the forecast is doubtful next time.

And don't forget afterwards a proper effort to clear pavements so people can walk safely would help enormously, as would not piling up snow in disabled car-parking spaces in car-parks...

''Friday's snow meant school buses a couple of miles East of Southampton got stuck around Titchfield/Whiteley, one worker travelling by car from Fareham to Southampton Airport managed 3 miles in 2 hours then gave up and walked home.''

Strange then because we had about 20 people make it in on the M27 from Portsmouth, same snow there I presume? Mind you they left a bit earlier to compensate for having to drive slower. Quite simple.

have the echo and the tory writers ever given it a thought that what was not done on friday in most cases was made up for by the staff in working extra hard over the next few days at work. about time you gave the time that you use to knock workers would be better used in helping the community.

Civil servants who could not be bothered to get in at our place like previous years get paid as special leave so all those who did come in did their work for them. No effort to walk in most were local.

ottred wrote:

Niel wrote:

Sotonians_lets_pull_ together wrote: I deplore the tone used in this article. If schools and settings close, then it is not the decision of individual staff members, and there is no reason why they should lose out. If the school or setting remains open and individual staff cannot make it in perhaps there is a case for requiring they take the time unpaid or as holiday, but heads should be free to make a reasonable judgement based on the safety of their staff and pupils and parents, without such a silly backlash. However, quite frankly, teachers and early years professionals do so much unpaid overtime, which minimum staffing levels and budgetary pressures mean it is unrealistic for them to claim, that the taxpayer gets an excellent deal from them. It is mean spirited to suggest they should be punished financially when their place of work is unable to open for very good safety reasons. In last friday's snowfall getting in was only part of the problem. Just as important a consideration is the ability of parents and staff to get home safely. When snow continues falling during the day, the effectiveness of gritting the roads is lost, and snow compacts to even more dangerous ice. Heads need to look at the forecast, and make a judgement on how safe the conditions will be at the end of the day, and what transport services will be running. Buses had stopped by mid morning last friday, and some staff which did make the extraordinary effort come in to schools to help communicate with parents ended up walking for miles on slippery ice and snow just to get home, risking injury as it was. It would have been much worse if they had to do this after dark when conditions were much icier. Think of the cost to the public sector of people taking time off with fractured hips, wrists and elbows, and I am sure you will quickly realise that brief closures are sensible AND cost effective. It was irresponsible for any school or setting to remain open last friday, and it is appalling to pressurise heads and staff with the sort of nonsense that is in this article. Most workers take the day off when conditions are as they were last friday, whether public or private sector. And as it is, you can bet that most teachers and early years professionals spent the time "off" catching up on marking and planning that they are not given sufficient time to do in working hours anyway. A suggestion in the article is that if some staff are able to make it in, the schools and nurseries should remain open - this does not take account of the fact that staff need to be able to get home again, nurseries need to be able to maintain minimum staff to child ratios, and what happens when parents cant make it back to school in time to pick up their children? Yes, those few staff will be expected to stay after closing till parents arrive, perhaps hours late if conditions are bad, and then those staff, who may themselves rely on public transport, may be stranded and unable to get home themselves. People should have a heart and think with some common sense about this. Heads do not make decisions to close lightly.

Entirely accurate. Friday's snow meant school buses a couple of miles East of Southampton got stuck around Titchfield/Whiteley, one worker travelling by car from Fareham to Southampton Airport managed 3 miles in 2 hours then gave up and walked home. Teachers and others travelling in from outside the city would have been very delayed, if they got there at all, most cannot afford to live in the city, so it's no surprise few made it in. When it's that bad non-essential mean's different things to different people, I stayed home, my 4x4 whilst capable would have been just as stuck, with all the lesser vehicles (and drivers in a lot of cases) blocking the roads. Add in the lazy school runners who HAVE to drive a 1/4 mile round trip to school, even when they have no disability, is it a surprise the roads end up getting blocked? Then there's public transport, buses on 'green' 'economy' tyre's have almost no grip, compared to the tyre's of just a few years ago, the 'electric' trains struggle to pick-up power from the third rail, diesels with winter fuel may run OK, but you can't overtake an electric train in the way. Pay the teachers, most will have used the time wisely, and plan to close earlier if the forecast is doubtful next time. And don't forget afterwards a proper effort to clear pavements so people can walk safely would help enormously, as would not piling up snow in disabled car-parking spaces in car-parks...

''Friday's snow meant school buses a couple of miles East of Southampton got stuck around Titchfield/Whiteley, one worker travelling by car from Fareham to Southampton Airport managed 3 miles in 2 hours then gave up and walked home.'' Strange then because we had about 20 people make it in on the M27 from Portsmouth, same snow there I presume? Mind you they left a bit earlier to compensate for having to drive slower. Quite simple.

You are correct, the snow was far lighter in Portsmouth. How successful you were was largely determined by what time you left home and local conditions, namely hills! Things very quickly ground to a halt when it started snowing heavily at 0800. Most routes were blocked by buses that were stuck!

Linesman wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

It is not just the workers, it is the children that they are responsible for.

When people were advised on radio and tv not to make unnecessary journeys, and warning that there was the prospect of more snow to come, the sensible decision was to send the children home, while they are still able to get home.

Your neighbour was an Adult, and as an adult, he should know his capabilities and is responsible for his own decisions.

We all remember how things were when we were kids.

Walk for miles to fetch a pail of water from the village pump, and find it was frozen solid by the time we got home.

Wearing short trousers, that were hand-me-downs, with more patches than original material.

Single glazing.

Huddled round a candle for both heat and light.

So cold that when we had a pee, it was frozen before it hit the water, that had frozen over, in the pan.

Yes! We were tough, but we were sturdy, living on one square meal a day.

A Bleedin OXO Cube!

Luxury, bl**dy Luxury
Now, when I where a lad............

loosehead wrote:

Linesman wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

It is not just the workers, it is the children that they are responsible for.

When people were advised on radio and tv not to make unnecessary journeys, and warning that there was the prospect of more snow to come, the sensible decision was to send the children home, while they are still able to get home.

Your neighbour was an Adult, and as an adult, he should know his capabilities and is responsible for his own decisions.

We all remember how things were when we were kids.

Walk for miles to fetch a pail of water from the village pump, and find it was frozen solid by the time we got home.

Wearing short trousers, that were hand-me-downs, with more patches than original material.

Single glazing.

Huddled round a candle for both heat and light.

So cold that when we had a pee, it was frozen before it hit the water, that had frozen over, in the pan.

Yes! We were tough, but we were sturdy, living on one square meal a day.

A Bleedin OXO Cube!

linesman I've tried to give you a rough idea of my history but if this is a sarcastic dig at me well maybe you should really look at exactly how molly coddled todays people are?
OH! I got porridge if lucky for breakfast school dinners & bread & dripping for tea so sorry we couldn't afford an OXO cube.
We hear about people desperate for work yet nearly every one knows the roads were the safest place to be.
A guy from the Hampshire council said the salt wouldn't work unless we drove on it so no excuse for car drivers.
as I've said parents actually took their children to school only to then be told it was shut as the teachers reckoned they couldn't get there

It is Six Letter Word Linesman.

HUMOUR!

Just having a joke about how we always tell youngsters about how tough it was when we were their age.

On reflection, perhaps you have never done so, in which case, please accept my apologies.

did the echo report like this in 2010, under the tory administration when schools were closed due to snow?

...no thought not. and also, did deputy news editor david brine get paid for the day off that he had on friday building snowmen with his kids?

"Whilst there are many hardy souls at the Daily Echo who have braved the conditions to bring you the news, our deputy news editor David Brine wasn't able to get into the office.

So instead, he's done what any self-respecting person would do, and has used his time wisely to build a snowman with his kids."

kingnotail wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

Same old crap 'I know so and so who does this so my opinion matters'. I know you Southampton folk are insular but what about people who have to drive 20, 30, 40 miles or more to work, or get a bus, or the train? Why should they be penalised for circumstances out of their control?

With all your Anti Southampton Rants & your going on about where you come from who's insular?

Linesman wrote:

loosehead wrote:

Linesman wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

It is not just the workers, it is the children that they are responsible for.

When people were advised on radio and tv not to make unnecessary journeys, and warning that there was the prospect of more snow to come, the sensible decision was to send the children home, while they are still able to get home.

Your neighbour was an Adult, and as an adult, he should know his capabilities and is responsible for his own decisions.

We all remember how things were when we were kids.

Walk for miles to fetch a pail of water from the village pump, and find it was frozen solid by the time we got home.

Wearing short trousers, that were hand-me-downs, with more patches than original material.

Single glazing.

Huddled round a candle for both heat and light.

So cold that when we had a pee, it was frozen before it hit the water, that had frozen over, in the pan.

Yes! We were tough, but we were sturdy, living on one square meal a day.

A Bleedin OXO Cube!

linesman I've tried to give you a rough idea of my history but if this is a sarcastic dig at me well maybe you should really look at exactly how molly coddled todays people are?
OH! I got porridge if lucky for breakfast school dinners & bread & dripping for tea so sorry we couldn't afford an OXO cube.
We hear about people desperate for work yet nearly every one knows the roads were the safest place to be.
A guy from the Hampshire council said the salt wouldn't work unless we drove on it so no excuse for car drivers.
as I've said parents actually took their children to school only to then be told it was shut as the teachers reckoned they couldn't get there

It is Six Letter Word Linesman.

HUMOUR!

Just having a joke about how we always tell youngsters about how tough it was when we were their age.

On reflection, perhaps you have never done so, in which case, please accept my apologies.

Linesman Humour aside could you tell me if those that did go to work who work for the council did they get a days extra pay or a day extra holiday as that in effect is what those who never ever tried have been given isn't it?

loosehead wrote:

Linesman wrote:

loosehead wrote:

Linesman wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

It is not just the workers, it is the children that they are responsible for.

When people were advised on radio and tv not to make unnecessary journeys, and warning that there was the prospect of more snow to come, the sensible decision was to send the children home, while they are still able to get home.

Your neighbour was an Adult, and as an adult, he should know his capabilities and is responsible for his own decisions.

We all remember how things were when we were kids.

Walk for miles to fetch a pail of water from the village pump, and find it was frozen solid by the time we got home.

Wearing short trousers, that were hand-me-downs, with more patches than original material.

Single glazing.

Huddled round a candle for both heat and light.

So cold that when we had a pee, it was frozen before it hit the water, that had frozen over, in the pan.

Yes! We were tough, but we were sturdy, living on one square meal a day.

A Bleedin OXO Cube!

linesman I've tried to give you a rough idea of my history but if this is a sarcastic dig at me well maybe you should really look at exactly how molly coddled todays people are?
OH! I got porridge if lucky for breakfast school dinners & bread & dripping for tea so sorry we couldn't afford an OXO cube.
We hear about people desperate for work yet nearly every one knows the roads were the safest place to be.
A guy from the Hampshire council said the salt wouldn't work unless we drove on it so no excuse for car drivers.
as I've said parents actually took their children to school only to then be told it was shut as the teachers reckoned they couldn't get there

It is Six Letter Word Linesman.

HUMOUR!

Just having a joke about how we always tell youngsters about how tough it was when we were their age.

On reflection, perhaps you have never done so, in which case, please accept my apologies.

Linesman Humour aside could you tell me if those that did go to work who work for the council did they get a days extra pay or a day extra holiday as that in effect is what those who never ever tried have been given isn't it?

If you are talking about 'the good old days', I have no idea.

It could be that there was something in their terms of employment that covered it.

However, I think you will find that
Council workers in those days, when the City had not received City status, lived within walking or corporation bus distance from work. Now, there are many that commute to the city from well outside the city limits.

Perhaps it should be a term of employment that SCC employees lived within the city limits, then they should be able to report to a council office near their home, if they are not able to get to their own office. That way they could be employed in some way, if only to make the tea!

It seems that there still exist that species of modern society who can whinge under water with a mouthful of marbles yet would yelp and stress out instantly if anyone demanded of them similar standards to those this species demand of others.
In particular I cannot even begin to understand why anyone would whinge about Teachers getting a days pay even though they could not attend school.
It is common knowledge that Teachers work enormous levels of unpaid and seemingly unrecognised discretionary goodwill hours before and after their prescribed hours including on their weekends and holidays.
Indeed if Teachers suddenly decided to work to their formal employment hours our public education would grind to a halt rapidly. Any responsible parent, guardian or grandparent who has engaged with Teachers and schools will know exactly what I am saying.
I figure we owe every Teacher tens of thousands of pounds for their many 1000s of unpaid hours they work during their career. A single day, which most if not all probably used to prepare lessons, plan or mark, is a small price to pay for such a dedicated workforce.
So to the ignorant unwashed and the lazy hypocrites, who would no more work pro bono than fly to the moon, stop judging other people against your own standards and instead try so very hard to reflect on a sector of the community that does and contributes so much more than you.

Actually teachers are the one group I don't understand the need to give paid leave too. Any teacher has a myriad of marking, lesson planning etc to do all of which can and is done at home.

MiddleOfRoad wrote:
It seems that there still exist that species of modern society who can whinge under water with a mouthful of marbles yet would yelp and stress out instantly if anyone demanded of them similar standards to those this species demand of others.
In particular I cannot even begin to understand why anyone would whinge about Teachers getting a days pay even though they could not attend school.
It is common knowledge that Teachers work enormous levels of unpaid and seemingly unrecognised discretionary goodwill hours before and after their prescribed hours including on their weekends and holidays.
Indeed if Teachers suddenly decided to work to their formal employment hours our public education would grind to a halt rapidly. Any responsible parent, guardian or grandparent who has engaged with Teachers and schools will know exactly what I am saying.
I figure we owe every Teacher tens of thousands of pounds for their many 1000s of unpaid hours they work during their career. A single day, which most if not all probably used to prepare lessons, plan or mark, is a small price to pay for such a dedicated workforce.
So to the ignorant unwashed and the lazy hypocrites, who would no more work pro bono than fly to the moon, stop judging other people against your own standards and instead try so very hard to reflect on a sector of the community that does and contributes so much more than you.

So you are looking at what courses to take & what your future is!
you see the amount of holidays teachers get & you find out the out of school work you have to do & you opt to be a teacher & then it's how bad you've got it & I'll do my home work today because it's snowing & I don't want to go to work but you should pay me a days wages as I'm working from home doing the work that's part of my job anyway!
Yeah that makes sense NOT!

loosehead wrote:

kingnotail wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

Same old crap 'I know so and so who does this so my opinion matters'. I know you Southampton folk are insular but what about people who have to drive 20, 30, 40 miles or more to work, or get a bus, or the train? Why should they be penalised for circumstances out of their control?

With all your Anti Southampton Rants & your going on about where you come from who's insular?

Ha ha so I'm insular in saying that probably the rest of the UK is a nicer place than Southampton?

George4th wrote:

Sotonians_lets_pull_

together wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:

George4th wrote:

southy wrote:
" In contrast, workers at other councils had to take holiday or will be expected to make up the time"

This is breaking the rules, they can not force any one to take holiday or expect to make up the lost time, when it it is the weather that cause the lost of time at work.

The law states that you do not have to pay them.

For most reason yes but inclement weather, rules say you pay them.

The law says you do not have to pay them. Go ask an Employment Lawyer and he/she will give you the same answer.

George4th,

Sorry I disagree, and so it seems does the BBC, and ACAS in advice given to the public on the legal situation

http://www.bbc.co.uk


/news/business-11886


185

"My workplace is closed. What then?

In these circumstances, you are entitled to pay. In addition, your employer cannot require you to take the time as annual leave. Don't get the sledges out yet, though. You could be expected to work from home or from another workplace, if that is possible in your job."

Your comment is misleading.

"According to the employment advice and conciliation service Acas, in the majority of cases, you are not automatically entitled to be paid if you cannot get to work. "

ACAS give the ONLY concrete EXCEPTION as your place of work being closed, which is common sense and you wouldn't need a Lawyer to work that one out!

Please don't lie ACAS do not get involved unless there is a sacking and following strike as a result of the sacking, Most Employment contract rules are not worth the paper they are writen on, because they will not stand up in a court of law.



you are paid if the incleament weather stops you getting into work, but you must contact them to let them know, its all covered under the health and safety acts, but of that cover is when avice comes from the traffic police, AA or/and the RAC saying do not travel unless its most to do so, so that the roads are kept clear for emergency and not have broken down cars blocking up the road.

kingnotail wrote:

loosehead wrote:

kingnotail wrote:

loosehead wrote:
My neighbour works in the Mayflower Theatre we live in Lordshill he walked to work so come on why pay them if they couldn't be bothered to get there?
we are born with a form of transport it's called legs I use to walk to the Bottom of Regents Park Rd from Lordshill to get to work in all weather conditions so why couldn't these workers?

Same old crap 'I know so and so who does this so my opinion matters'. I know you Southampton folk are insular but what about people who have to drive 20, 30, 40 miles or more to work, or get a bus, or the train? Why should they be penalised for circumstances out of their control?

With all your Anti Southampton Rants & your going on about where you come from who's insular?

Ha ha so I'm insular in saying that probably the rest of the UK is a nicer place than Southampton?

It's not the rest of the country it's you & Portsmouth fans who slag down this City so once again why are you here did you in your wisdom research this city before you came here & if not why not?
You sound like a bit of an idiot saying we're insular yet many of us come from all over the Uk .
many chose to live here because they liked what they saw yet you slag it down so yes your insular as your the only one who believes what you say so yes you live in a world of your own so doesn't that make you insular?

The funniest thing is that you think the only people who would ever slag off Southampton must be from Portsmouth! Until I moved to Southampton I barely knew Portsmouth existed (ditto Southampton), and I really couldn't give a f**k about some petty south coast rivalry. Portsmouth is hardly Shangri-La but it is less of a sh1thole than Southampton!

kingnotail wrote:
The funniest thing is that you think the only people who would ever slag off Southampton must be from Portsmouth! Until I moved to Southampton I barely knew Portsmouth existed (ditto Southampton), and I really couldn't give a f**k about some petty south coast rivalry. Portsmouth is hardly Shangri-La but it is less of a sh1thole than Southampton!

So once again where do you come from mouth all mighty?