Future of city's oldest pub in doubt (From Daily Echo)

It's a lovely building, and a piece of history, but pubs these days really do very little except support the lives of the unemployed. Perhaps the council could turn it into a museum, they appear to have millions to burn after recently building extortionately expensive eco homes for their own tenants. Discuss please.

It's a lovely building, and a piece of history, but pubs these days really do very little except support the lives of the unemployed. Perhaps the council could turn it into a museum, they appear to have millions to burn after recently building extortionately expensive eco homes for their own tenants. Discuss please.

What a bloody cheek, to say to this guy to follow one path for them only to block him as he does so!

Its too expensive £3.50 a pint,too small and the clientele are hideous. this would make a good tesco express once all that silly old wood is gutted out.

chunky_lover wrote:
It's a lovely building, and a piece of history, but pubs these days really do very little except support the lives of the unemployed. Perhaps the council could turn it into a museum, they appear to have millions to burn after recently building extortionately expensive eco homes for their own tenants. Discuss please.

I'm challenging your assertion that pubs do very little except support the lives of the unemployed. Can you explain what that means, bearing in mind that the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.

Do English Heritage help with any funding, once they slap on a preservation order?

chunky_lover wrote:
It's a lovely building, and a piece of history, but pubs these days really do very little except support the lives of the unemployed. Perhaps the council could turn it into a museum, they appear to have millions to burn after recently building extortionately expensive eco homes for their own tenants. Discuss please.

Support the lives of the unemployed ?? ay. Think the unemployed prefer to get bottles of cider then spend £3-4 (a large chunk of their JSA) on a pint.

If the dock gate could be listed and preserved, surely this has more historical relevance to the city.

How will building another storey onto the building help pay for roof repairs? Surely the new storey will entail a new roof entirely?

And if he can afford to undertake this work in the hope of procuring additional income, why can't he just spend the money on a new roof now?

Or is this just another story about a whining businessman upset because he hasn't got his own way and rather than challeng the decision deciding to bleat about it in the press?

Well maybe Tony should sell his two ruddy great big BMW X5's that him and he wife like to parade around the city, there's a good chunk of money right there. Never did understand why they need them when they live in a city on a residential street.

ToastyTea wrote:

chunky_lover wrote:
It's a lovely building, and a piece of history, but pubs these days really do very little except support the lives of the unemployed. Perhaps the council could turn it into a museum, they appear to have millions to burn after recently building extortionately expensive eco homes for their own tenants. Discuss please.

Support the lives of the unemployed ?? ay. Think the unemployed prefer to get bottles of cider then spend £3-4 (a large chunk of their JSA) on a pint.

Thanks for your feedback. I've never chosen to be unemployed so can only comment on my own views of the people I have seen when passing public houses when driving between important meetings.

chunky_lover wrote:

ToastyTea wrote:

chunky_lover wrote:
It's a lovely building, and a piece of history, but pubs these days really do very little except support the lives of the unemployed. Perhaps the council could turn it into a museum, they appear to have millions to burn after recently building extortionately expensive eco homes for their own tenants. Discuss please.

Support the lives of the unemployed ?? ay. Think the unemployed prefer to get bottles of cider then spend £3-4 (a large chunk of their JSA) on a pint.

Thanks for your feedback. I've never chosen to be unemployed so can only comment on my own views of the people I have seen when passing public houses when driving between important meetings.

Important meetings, eh?

The application wasn't rejected because planners don't want to see the place developed; they rejected the scheme because the drawings submitted did not provide sufficient information for it to be approved.

Planners in Southampton are a joke, having had dealings with them several times in the past it's the only thing I have to say on this item, when I say a joke I mean a very bad and unfunny one.

Goldenwight wrote:
How will building another storey onto the building help pay for roof repairs? Surely the new storey will entail a new roof entirely?

And if he can afford to undertake this work in the hope of procuring additional income, why can't he just spend the money on a new roof now?

Or is this just another story about a whining businessman upset because he hasn't got his own way and rather than challeng the decision deciding to bleat about it in the press?

Um .. well if you got your brain in gear before spouting off you might just realise that its probably an 'internal' conversion within the existing shell. Idiot

As Henry the eighth slept there I can't see why it isn't under English Heritage.
Surely the way to go is to apply for a grant under the lottery or one of the historic grant bodies & get it into a Magazine with all the other historical buildings & put them into the hands of cruise ship passengers & into hotels for visitors.
Then charge them a £1 each to be shown around the building.
As soon as the name Henry the eighth is mentioned he should get enough to pay off the loan & increase the sell of alcohol maybe get in mead as well & try & make it authentic Tudor

andysaints007 wrote:

Goldenwight wrote:
How will building another storey onto the building help pay for roof repairs? Surely the new storey will entail a new roof entirely?

And if he can afford to undertake this work in the hope of procuring additional income, why can't he just spend the money on a new roof now?

Or is this just another story about a whining businessman upset because he hasn't got his own way and rather than challeng the decision deciding to bleat about it in the press?

Um .. well if you got your brain in gear before spouting off you might just realise that its probably an 'internal' conversion within the existing shell. Idiot

I like Tony & I feel the planners have let him down but you should have read the article before slating Goldenwight.
encouragement from council heritage officers to put in plans for a rear firstfloor extension and a new third-storey to house eight bedrooms, I think an extension is an add on not the original building floor space?
I could be wrong but isn't that what an extension is?

andysaints007 wrote:

Goldenwight wrote: How will building another storey onto the building help pay for roof repairs? Surely the new storey will entail a new roof entirely? And if he can afford to undertake this work in the hope of procuring additional income, why can't he just spend the money on a new roof now? Or is this just another story about a whining businessman upset because he hasn't got his own way and rather than challeng the decision deciding to bleat about it in the press?

Um .. well if you got your brain in gear before spouting off you might just realise that its probably an 'internal' conversion within the existing shell. Idiot

Nope, sorry, andy. I seem to lack your insight because I've read that article six times now and I really can't see the word "internal" anywhere. In fact, spell checking and using the 'find' function on this browser shows that your post is the only place it is mentioned.

Perhaps you have some further insight you would like to share with us, because it is clear you know more than the original author!

loosehead wrote:
As Henry the eighth slept there I can't see why it isn't under English Heritage.
Surely the way to go is to apply for a grant under the lottery or one of the historic grant bodies & get it into a Magazine with all the other historical buildings & put them into the hands of cruise ship passengers & into hotels for visitors.
Then charge them a £1 each to be shown around the building.
As soon as the name Henry the eighth is mentioned he should get enough to pay off the loan & increase the sell of alcohol maybe get in mead as well & try & make it authentic Tudor

Henry the 8th didnt sleep there, 3 men were put on trial there for attempting to murder Henry the 5th. the duke of wellington is actually the oldest pub in soton built in 1220.There are mediaeval vaults under the red lion dating to 1250,but most of the building you see now is all fake mock tudor and not old at all, it was built in 1890.

Over the Edge wrote:
Planners in Southampton are a joke, having had dealings with them several times in the past it's the only thing I have to say on this item, when I say a joke I mean a very bad and unfunny one.

Admittedly it was few years back when I was member of planning committee, so with experience I can confirm your statement
.
Not only the consistency in decisions seem to be lacking, most of the elected members often only serve the purpose of rubber stamps in the hands of council’s pen pushers, who in my opinion are more interested in keeping the big developers (especially those who are not from Southampton) happy and not too keen on local people whose council tax pays their wages
.
Obviously you would have suffered more frustration than me, because all then chair of main planning committee John Arnold could do to stop me from listening to people was to remove from that committee, which suited me fine because I could live with my conscience
.
Answer for resolving this problem is for us the people to elect those who have the guts to stand for them rather than sheepishly following party whip on every matter and who are able to resist ‘Yes Minister’ scenario of pen pushers. You may find it hard to believe but such people really do exist in all political parties, all they need is support of the people
.
This news item illustrates my point. Why the elected members could not demand proper coordination between various officials i.e. those who advised and encouraged the applicant for this project and those involved in planning side of things? And who is left to pick the bill for submitting this failed application? Obviously neither the pen pushers nor their de-facto puppet councillors but the applicant. Just like you may have suffered

Probably resubmitting the plans with additional detail will get it through.

I recommend crayons and short words Asa Thorpe is hardly the sharpest knife in the drawer even by Labour stabdards

Certainly not the best pub in town. Last time I went in there the bar person was blind to the fact I was there although he saw me and I was next, went and served a obvious local. I walked out! Probably saved a few quid as well. It's a overpriced 'tourists' pub. 'Oh honey look at the blah blah blah'. You're welcome to it!

"planners claim the drawings weren't detailed enough".
I couldn't agree more, take a look here:
http://publicaccess.
southampton.gov.uk/P
lanning/lg/GFPlannin
gViewDocumentInDialo
g.page

In my opinion, the applicant has not given himself the best opportunity of convincing SCC that this is an appropriate development for such an historic building, notwithstanding what some may think of the business / patrons.

veedubber wrote:
"planners claim the drawings weren't detailed enough". I couldn't agree more, take a look here: http://publicaccess. southampton.gov.uk/P lanning/lg/GFPlannin gViewDocumentInDialo g.page In my opinion, the applicant has not given himself the best opportunity of convincing SCC that this is an appropriate development for such an historic building, notwithstanding what some may think of the business / patrons.

conveniently the SCC planning portal has now got a fatal error

Goldenwight wrote:

andysaints007 wrote:

Goldenwight wrote: How will building another storey onto the building help pay for roof repairs? Surely the new storey will entail a new roof entirely? And if he can afford to undertake this work in the hope of procuring additional income, why can't he just spend the money on a new roof now? Or is this just another story about a whining businessman upset because he hasn't got his own way and rather than challeng the decision deciding to bleat about it in the press?

Um .. well if you got your brain in gear before spouting off you might just realise that its probably an 'internal' conversion within the existing shell. Idiot

Nope, sorry, andy. I seem to lack your insight because I've read that article six times now and I really can't see the word "internal" anywhere. In fact, spell checking and using the 'find' function on this browser shows that your post is the only place it is mentioned.

Perhaps you have some further insight you would like to share with us, because it is clear you know more than the original author!

The extension is to the 'rear' of the building and would entail the relevant internal works to incorporate it!! The plans have nothing to do with the 'original' problem' roof!! I am sure if it was as simple as you made it sound it might have been picked up by his architect!

Let's hope the Labour council see sense.

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:
As Henry the eighth slept there I can't see why it isn't under English Heritage.
Surely the way to go is to apply for a grant under the lottery or one of the historic grant bodies & get it into a Magazine with all the other historical buildings & put them into the hands of cruise ship passengers & into hotels for visitors.
Then charge them a £1 each to be shown around the building.
As soon as the name Henry the eighth is mentioned he should get enough to pay off the loan & increase the sell of alcohol maybe get in mead as well & try & make it authentic Tudor

Henry the 8th didnt sleep there, 3 men were put on trial there for attempting to murder Henry the 5th. the duke of wellington is actually the oldest pub in soton built in 1220.There are mediaeval vaults under the red lion dating to 1250,but most of the building you see now is all fake mock tudor and not old at all, it was built in 1890.

Sorry as I'm pretty up on this your wrong he did sleep there & this is the oldest pub in town.
Bigfella I try to agree with you but please check out your history as I guess the next thing you'll be saying is King Canutes Palace isn't down the bottom end of town or the place he tried stopping the water isn't Southampton?

We like the RED LION.

On to footballing matters ...

WE ARE RED ARMY AND WE RULE THE SOUTH. COYR.

Personally I always take ANYTHING I read in the Echo with a pinch of salt. The Red Lion is a listed building - see
http://list.english-
heritage.org.uk/resu
ltsingle.aspx?uid=10
92055. If the submitted drawings are poor, the resulting building work is likely to be poor as well. So in rejecting the application the council officers were just doing their job properly.

loosehead wrote:

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:
As Henry the eighth slept there I can't see why it isn't under English Heritage.
Surely the way to go is to apply for a grant under the lottery or one of the historic grant bodies & get it into a Magazine with all the other historical buildings & put them into the hands of cruise ship passengers & into hotels for visitors.
Then charge them a £1 each to be shown around the building.
As soon as the name Henry the eighth is mentioned he should get enough to pay off the loan & increase the sell of alcohol maybe get in mead as well & try & make it authentic Tudor

Henry the 8th didnt sleep there, 3 men were put on trial there for attempting to murder Henry the 5th. the duke of wellington is actually the oldest pub in soton built in 1220.There are mediaeval vaults under the red lion dating to 1250,but most of the building you see now is all fake mock tudor and not old at all, it was built in 1890.

Sorry as I'm pretty up on this your wrong he did sleep there & this is the oldest pub in town.
Bigfella I try to agree with you but please check out your history as I guess the next thing you'll be saying is King Canutes Palace isn't down the bottom end of town or the place he tried stopping the water isn't Southampton?

Sorry, Im very up on this you are wrong, anyway what you are talking about no longer exists all you are talking about is a space where something once existed which has now gone.

Have to agree with the adverse comments on the City's Planning Dept, they couldn't run a whelk stall, clearly shown by permitting that giant carbuncle of a museum to be attached to the most iconic building in the City.

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:
As Henry the eighth slept there I can't see why it isn't under English Heritage.
Surely the way to go is to apply for a grant under the lottery or one of the historic grant bodies & get it into a Magazine with all the other historical buildings & put them into the hands of cruise ship passengers & into hotels for visitors.
Then charge them a £1 each to be shown around the building.
As soon as the name Henry the eighth is mentioned he should get enough to pay off the loan & increase the sell of alcohol maybe get in mead as well & try & make it authentic Tudor

Henry the 8th didnt sleep there, 3 men were put on trial there for attempting to murder Henry the 5th. the duke of wellington is actually the oldest pub in soton built in 1220.There are mediaeval vaults under the red lion dating to 1250,but most of the building you see now is all fake mock tudor and not old at all, it was built in 1890.

Sorry as I'm pretty up on this your wrong he did sleep there & this is the oldest pub in town.
Bigfella I try to agree with you but please check out your history as I guess the next thing you'll be saying is King Canutes Palace isn't down the bottom end of town or the place he tried stopping the water isn't Southampton?

Sorry, Im very up on this you are wrong, anyway what you are talking about no longer exists all you are talking about is a space where something once existed which has now gone.

I've debated with you & treated you okay but if this is the type of response you come back with fine but as only idiots can respond like this that's how I'll treat you from now on.
Tudor House was once a house lived in but not anymore does that make it any less a Tudor building?
Henry the eighth slept in the building called the Red Lion Inn/pub doesn't the Red Lion exist anymore?
stop talking like an idiot & start some good debating

loosehead wrote:

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:
As Henry the eighth slept there I can't see why it isn't under English Heritage.
Surely the way to go is to apply for a grant under the lottery or one of the historic grant bodies & get it into a Magazine with all the other historical buildings & put them into the hands of cruise ship passengers & into hotels for visitors.
Then charge them a £1 each to be shown around the building.
As soon as the name Henry the eighth is mentioned he should get enough to pay off the loan & increase the sell of alcohol maybe get in mead as well & try & make it authentic Tudor

Henry the 8th didnt sleep there, 3 men were put on trial there for attempting to murder Henry the 5th. the duke of wellington is actually the oldest pub in soton built in 1220.There are mediaeval vaults under the red lion dating to 1250,but most of the building you see now is all fake mock tudor and not old at all, it was built in 1890.

Sorry as I'm pretty up on this your wrong he did sleep there & this is the oldest pub in town.
Bigfella I try to agree with you but please check out your history as I guess the next thing you'll be saying is King Canutes Palace isn't down the bottom end of town or the place he tried stopping the water isn't Southampton?

Sorry, Im very up on this you are wrong, anyway what you are talking about no longer exists all you are talking about is a space where something once existed which has now gone.

I've debated with you & treated you okay but if this is the type of response you come back with fine but as only idiots can respond like this that's how I'll treat you from now on.
Tudor House was once a house lived in but not anymore does that make it any less a Tudor building?
Henry the eighth slept in the building called the Red Lion Inn/pub doesn't the Red Lion exist anymore?
stop talking like an idiot & start some good debating

Its funny you should mention tudor house because Henry the 8th was supposed to have given Anne Bolyen one in there.
The red lion your talking about is gone, the one you see now was built in 1890 so how could Henry the 8th slept in there at all.

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:
As Henry the eighth slept there I can't see why it isn't under English Heritage.
Surely the way to go is to apply for a grant under the lottery or one of the historic grant bodies & get it into a Magazine with all the other historical buildings & put them into the hands of cruise ship passengers & into hotels for visitors.
Then charge them a £1 each to be shown around the building.
As soon as the name Henry the eighth is mentioned he should get enough to pay off the loan & increase the sell of alcohol maybe get in mead as well & try & make it authentic Tudor

Henry the 8th didnt sleep there, 3 men were put on trial there for attempting to murder Henry the 5th. the duke of wellington is actually the oldest pub in soton built in 1220.There are mediaeval vaults under the red lion dating to 1250,but most of the building you see now is all fake mock tudor and not old at all, it was built in 1890.

Sorry as I'm pretty up on this your wrong he did sleep there & this is the oldest pub in town.
Bigfella I try to agree with you but please check out your history as I guess the next thing you'll be saying is King Canutes Palace isn't down the bottom end of town or the place he tried stopping the water isn't Southampton?

Sorry, Im very up on this you are wrong, anyway what you are talking about no longer exists all you are talking about is a space where something once existed which has now gone.

I've debated with you & treated you okay but if this is the type of response you come back with fine but as only idiots can respond like this that's how I'll treat you from now on.
Tudor House was once a house lived in but not anymore does that make it any less a Tudor building?
Henry the eighth slept in the building called the Red Lion Inn/pub doesn't the Red Lion exist anymore?
stop talking like an idiot & start some good debating

Its funny you should mention tudor house because Henry the 8th was supposed to have given Anne Bolyen one in there.
The red lion your talking about is gone, the one you see now was built in 1890 so how could Henry the 8th slept in there at all.

As I know that this pub was not built then & unlike HolyRood church survived the bombing you ought to go out.
here's an idea why not walk down there & talk to Tony over a pint & ask him about where Henry slept before commenting on here?

loosehead wrote:

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:

bigfella777 wrote:

loosehead wrote:
As Henry the eighth slept there I can't see why it isn't under English Heritage.
Surely the way to go is to apply for a grant under the lottery or one of the historic grant bodies & get it into a Magazine with all the other historical buildings & put them into the hands of cruise ship passengers & into hotels for visitors.
Then charge them a £1 each to be shown around the building.
As soon as the name Henry the eighth is mentioned he should get enough to pay off the loan & increase the sell of alcohol maybe get in mead as well & try & make it authentic Tudor

Henry the 8th didnt sleep there, 3 men were put on trial there for attempting to murder Henry the 5th. the duke of wellington is actually the oldest pub in soton built in 1220.There are mediaeval vaults under the red lion dating to 1250,but most of the building you see now is all fake mock tudor and not old at all, it was built in 1890.

Sorry as I'm pretty up on this your wrong he did sleep there & this is the oldest pub in town.
Bigfella I try to agree with you but please check out your history as I guess the next thing you'll be saying is King Canutes Palace isn't down the bottom end of town or the place he tried stopping the water isn't Southampton?

Sorry, Im very up on this you are wrong, anyway what you are talking about no longer exists all you are talking about is a space where something once existed which has now gone.

I've debated with you & treated you okay but if this is the type of response you come back with fine but as only idiots can respond like this that's how I'll treat you from now on.
Tudor House was once a house lived in but not anymore does that make it any less a Tudor building?
Henry the eighth slept in the building called the Red Lion Inn/pub doesn't the Red Lion exist anymore?
stop talking like an idiot & start some good debating

Its funny you should mention tudor house because Henry the 8th was supposed to have given Anne Bolyen one in there.
The red lion your talking about is gone, the one you see now was built in 1890 so how could Henry the 8th slept in there at all.

As I know that this pub was not built then & unlike HolyRood church survived the bombing you ought to go out.
here's an idea why not walk down there & talk to Tony over a pint & ask him about where Henry slept before commenting on here?

The landlord of a "theme" pub is bound to say anything to tourists,as I keep saying it is Henry the 5th who is connected to the Red Lion not the 8th.
It was from Southampton that Henry the 5th sailed for Agincourt.You are sadly misinformed.

Can anyone join in this ping pong game? You are right, bigfella. Owners, and those who should know better, often make up all sorts of things about their properties. There is no proven historical evidence whatsoever that Henry 8 stayed in the Red Lion. Nor is there for his son, Edward 6, or daughter Elizabeth 1 despite their visits to Southampton.
The site of it, and St Julians Church, are associated with the Scrope Plot of 1415 (Henry 5th) but not with Henry 8th. All a load of hot air and sales talk as is the rubbish about it being the most haunted house in Southampton.
Although parts of it are of Norman and Tudor origin, it, like the building we now know as Tudor House Museum, was extensively altered and a great deal destroyed by "improvers" of the late 19th/early 20th century.
Yes, it is a Grade 2 listed building but by law its upkeep is the responsibility of its owner in exactly the same way as for the owners of any listed building. The only way to get out of paying for the upkeep of any listed building, particularly a commercial one, is to sell up. That is, if you can find a buyer.
The answer as to why English Heritage is not involved with the Red Lion other than to advise, is actually mentioned by the landlord in the article. The pub is a private business, and as such cannot attract any form of public charity funding. And long may that remain the case.

Vonnie wrote:
Can anyone join in this ping pong game? You are right, bigfella. Owners, and those who should know better, often make up all sorts of things about their properties. There is no proven historical evidence whatsoever that Henry 8 stayed in the Red Lion. Nor is there for his son, Edward 6, or daughter Elizabeth 1 despite their visits to Southampton.
The site of it, and St Julians Church, are associated with the Scrope Plot of 1415 (Henry 5th) but not with Henry 8th. All a load of hot air and sales talk as is the rubbish about it being the most haunted house in Southampton.
Although parts of it are of Norman and Tudor origin, it, like the building we now know as Tudor House Museum, was extensively altered and a great deal destroyed by "improvers" of the late 19th/early 20th century.
Yes, it is a Grade 2 listed building but by law its upkeep is the responsibility of its owner in exactly the same way as for the owners of any listed building. The only way to get out of paying for the upkeep of any listed building, particularly a commercial one, is to sell up. That is, if you can find a buyer.
The answer as to why English Heritage is not involved with the Red Lion other than to advise, is actually mentioned by the landlord in the article. The pub is a private business, and as such cannot attract any form of public charity funding. And long may that remain the case.

So are you saying it's even more of an attraction than was previously thought?
Surely any Yank would love to see the Inn where Henry the Fifth stayed before he went & beat the French in Agincourt?
Also Shakespeare fans show a interest in anything to do with Henry the Fifth so quick Vonnie/Bigfella go & tell the Landlord the good news