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Building bridges in the community (From Daily Echo)
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Building bridges in the community
8:46pm Sunday 24th January 2010
BASHING out emails to any Muslim primary school in London I could find, I have to admit I wasn’t too hopeful of a response.
What I wanted was clear – a visit to their school ASAP – but what was in it for them?
The proposed new school in faraway Southampton would mean little to them and head teachers are busy people.
My email could easily be ignored in favour of far more pressing matters.
And no one can ignore the fact that it’s not the easiest of PR jobs to sell an Islamic school in the current political climate.I never heard from the first six schools I emailed.
But just five minutes after sending the seventh, a reply dropped into my inbox.
“I am really glad that you have contacted us and that you want to write about our school.
We are at present involved in many exciting projects, which would certainly be worth writing about!
Please let me know of the dates that would suit you to come in and I am sure we can arrange something.”
And ten minutes later, the acting head at Noor Ul Islam P r i m a r y School in Leyton, east London, was phoning me to repeat her kind invitation. She was certain their schedule could be cleared and we could come whenever we wanted.
Sure enough, just a few days later, a photographer and myself set off for Leyton to find out more about the school and what one would mean for Southampton.
I had been sent a protocol list by the school, and read it aloud to the photographer as we crawled along the motorway.
Designed to avoid any awkward moments, it outlined Islamic social etiquette followed at the school and didn’t take long to read.
Men should only shake the hands of other men, and likewise for females. Modest dress was required. Men and women may be segregated in certain parts of the building, and weren’t free to socialise with the opposite sex. The prayer area was to be kept clean and shoes should be removed, and it was vital to remain silent if you were present when the Qur’an was being recited.
Arriving three hours later around lunchtime, we found the school tucked away on a quiet street, small and unassuming from the outside.
Inside it was quite a different story.
Receiving a warm welcome from acting head Rookshana Adam and her deputy Halima Rangrej, the school was buzzing with activity.
As children streamed through the hall, there was excited, happy chatter, with many offering us a polite hello or a wave.
All the usual subjects are taught here but the timetable also carries daily lessons in Islamic studies, which includes reading the Qur’an and learning Arabic.
This saves the children having to do this work after school.
All the subjects at this independent primary are taught in English, and boys and girls are educated together.
In the school hall – where twice daily prayers take place – the walls are decorated with brightly coloured displays about healthy eating and snowflakes, and a bookcase groans with copies of Roald Dahl favourites and The Demon Headmaster.
Run by a charitable Islamic trust, parents pay fees of £2,500 a year to send their child here.
With 156 pupils on its roll and 30 staff, Noor Ul Islam Primary School is something of a success story.
Opening its doors for the first time back in 2001 with just 96 pupils, today it boasts a huge waiting list of more than 300 children.
It’s not rocket science why Muslim parents are desperate to send their children here.
Along with small class sizes, glowing Ofsted reports and excellent SATS results, the school offers an all-round education in an Islamic setting.
All the usual National Curriculum subjects are taught here.
“We want them to excel and do well,”
says the acting deputy.
“If you take anything away from the National Curriculum it would disadvantage them, especially when it came to sitting their GCSEs. Many of our children won’t go on to Islamic secondary schools because there aren’t enough places available.”
Forging strong links with the local community, staff are keen to ensure their pupils do not live in a segregated Islamic bubble.
One of their key aims, after all, is to encourage pupils to be good citizens and make a positive contribution to society.
Community cohesion is close to their hearts. “We want them to be part of what’s around them,” says Mrs Adam.
So Noor Ul Islam Primary aims to work closely with their local authority and has strong links with other local schools.
The children are currently raising money for their local hospital and have even adopted a local flowerbed.
The school also operates a strict parking policy to ensure parents collecting their children are considerate to their neighbours.
Fostering a sense of Britishness too is important – these children are British Muslims after all – and this is covered in citizenship lessons. The children also go on regular school trips – the beach, the ice rink and a forest are all recent favourites.
Despite the current political climate, staff say they have never experienced any negativity towards the school.
So what is the secret of this wider success?
Two words – openness and transparency.
The school has always opened its doors and welcomed outsiders, as I witnessed first-hand.
“It’s about working with people in the community and reassuring them,” says Mrs Rangrej.
“A Muslim school will be very new to Southampton and so there may be apprehension.
“It’s important to be open and transparent.
People do have preconceptions concerning what Islamic schools are about and what the curriculum will be.
“The fact we teach the National Curriculum has been news for some people in the past. We have had visitors come in before and say, ‘wow this is a real school’. It’s quite comical but nobody out there knows what’s going on inside. It’s about opening your doors and making people feel welcome. This is just another school.”
Of course, somewhere like Leyton has a much larger Muslim population than Southampton.
The 2001 census showed that 15.1 per cent of residents of Waltham Forest (the borough which includes Leyton) were Muslim.
These figures meant they had the third largest Muslim population in London and the fifth largest in the country. Southampton’s comparable figures – 1.9 per cent of the population were Muslim, rising to as high as 11.8 per cent in the city centre Bevois ward – are pretty small fry next to that.
So will Southampton’s potential Muslim school encounter any additional challenges as a result?
These ladies don’t think so – as long as they remain as open as possible.
There are, they say, so many positives of such a school opening in Southampton for the wider non-Muslim community.
There’s the financial benefit for a start. Mrs Adam estimates their school saves the local authority in the region of £3,500 per child by educating them independently.
Then the high standard of education and emphasis on Islamic manners taught in the school, which they say will ensure pupils will grow up to become valued citizens.
Struck by just how happy and polite the children at Noor Ul Islam Primary seem to be, it would also be hard to find a head teacher who radiates more positivity than Mrs Adam.
“I love it so much I would work here for free,” she says. “I wish I had a room so that I could be here all the time. If the school in Southampton gets the right team onboard, success is there for them.”
If the Leyton experience does come to Southampton there are, of course, obvious benefits for the Islamic community.
But perhaps surprisingly, there will be plenty of positives available to the wider community too.
If Noor Ul Islam Primary’s genuine openness and willingness to engage is adopted 90 miles down the motorway, it would be a valuable lesson learnt.
And such a refreshing ethos could have a positive effect far beyond the school walls.
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Your Say YourEcho
Southampton Heart, Living Near Manchester says...
9:34pm Sun 24 Jan 10
Condor Man, Southampton says...
9:48pm Sun 24 Jan 10
WalkingOnAWire wrote:that's funny, there are 5 Catholic state schools in Southampton and 2 private ones. There are as many CofE schools too.
It doesn't matter how good or bad the education is. Religion should have no place in any of our schools, irrespective of the denomination. Educating children to believe in mythical beings of whatever type is a foolish thing to do and perpetuates social barriers. What people choose to believe is up to them but the state should not be playing a part by funding faith-based education.
I fail to see the fear people have of religions, you are not forced to believe in anything at school so what's the problem?
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
10:03pm Sun 24 Jan 10
Condor Man, Southampton says...
10:10pm Sun 24 Jan 10
WalkingOnAWire wrote:oh ye of little (or no) faith. If you knew your history you would know that our education system was founded by churches- from village schools to Oxbridge Colleges. Whether or not you actually believe in a god you can't dispute the fact that churches have been founding schools ever since the reformation when the bible was translated into English and people in non-conformist churches were encouraged to read. The mediocrity of schools in Southampton says to me that if Muslims want to educate their children their own way so be it.
The problem is simple. There is no proof that God, Jehovah, Allah, or whatever people choose to worship, exists. It is no more rational to fund an education based on the tenets of ANY religion than it is to teach that the earth is flat or that the moon is made of green cheese. The Christian, Jewish and Muslim world views all 'blaspheme' each other and sow the seeds for conflicts all over the world. Choosing to perpetuate them by enshrining them within the education system is short-sighted and lets all our children down. I include all faith-based schools in this, including the existing ones.
freefinker, southampton says...
10:17pm Sun 24 Jan 10
"The school will cover 'most of the topics” on the national curriculum, however some unspecified areas of concern, will be adapted or replaced with Islamic alternatives, or ditched'."
This is unacceptable. What it means is that the scientific knowledge we have accumulated over the last 200 or so years (i.e evolution, big bang, age of planet, etc, etc, ad infinitum) will NOT be taught. Instead they will be indoctrinated into believing a 4000 year old creation myth which we now know to be utterly false. THIS IS NOT EDUCATION - IT'S INDOCTRINATION/BRAIN
WASHING.
And the Catholics you mention are just as bad (e.g. their sexual attitudes to AIDS/condoms/the pill etc on this vastly overcrowded planet). Perhaps you have forgoten they have only just forgiven Galileo for dareing to demonstrate that the earth revolves around the sun - over 400 years too late.
Religions are just superstition - and the sooner we stop allowing then to fuddle the mind of the young the sooner we will have a more rational (and peaceful) world.
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
10:22pm Sun 24 Jan 10
I don't dispute that churches have founded some very good schools - I attended one myself. I also agree 100% with you that our schools here in Southampton are mediocre at best. I also understand that parents want to send their children to schools of their own faith. For one thing, it removes from the parents much of the burden of educating their children in that faith themselves in order to pass it on.
However, I do not believe that faith-based schools are the answer. If we accept the straighforward premise that the Catholic and Islamic views of 'God' simply cannot both be 'correct', then why on earth are we happy to encourage them to be taught to different groups of children, purely because those children happen to have been born into a group that believes one or the other?
The question of how we improve our schools is hugely important and I'm with you all the way that it needs to be done. Handing them to faith-based interests, however, is not the answer.
Vconfused, Romsey says...
10:59pm Sun 24 Jan 10
And the state are not going to be funding this school, nor the school in the article.
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
11:27pm Sun 24 Jan 10
Vconfused wrote:- Religion IS incompatible with science when children are taught the young-earth Creationism that Islam certainly subscribes to. There are no guarantees that this will not be the case in Southampton.
Unless you have some insider knowledge on the plans of the Muslim Community group who want to set up this school, I would say it is judgmental to assume they will not be taught science. Religion is not incompatible with science. Most religious schools teach a varied curriculum in a religious ethos - ie daily prayers and emphasis on being kind to others etc. While I would personally never work in or send my child to a RC or Muslim school, I think everyone should have the right to educate their child as they wish. And the point about dropping some elements of the NC - that is the right of all independent schools.
And the state are not going to be funding this school, nor the school in the article.
- 'An emphasis on being kind' is not in evidence within the tenets of Islam when you look at the practices of Sharia law.
It's all very well to say that parents should have a choice to educate their child as they wish - but why should this extend to teaching religion and religious practices within the school day? We have enough of a skills gap in this country as it stands - to take up valuable teaching time with non-useful teaching about a specific belief system will not help to address this.
I agree that the question is a complex one - but to say that faith-based schools are the answer is to duck the real question.
bravebeth, Hove says...
7:16am Mon 25 Jan 10
Condor Man, Southampton says...
7:36am Mon 25 Jan 10
lighting up leyton, Leyton says...
10:10am Mon 25 Jan 10
freefinker wrote:Just for your reassurance, the school mentioned in this article does:
Condor Man, can you not remember what was said in the original article earlier in the week: - "The school will cover 'most of the topics” on the national curriculum, however some unspecified areas of concern, will be adapted or replaced with Islamic alternatives, or ditched'." This is unacceptable. What it means is that the scientific knowledge we have accumulated over the last 200 or so years (i.e evolution, big bang, age of planet, etc, etc, ad infinitum) will NOT be taught. Instead they will be indoctrinated into believing a 4000 year old creation myth which we now know to be utterly false. THIS IS NOT EDUCATION - IT'S INDOCTRINATION/BRAIN WASHING. And the Catholics you mention are just as bad (e.g. their sexual attitudes to AIDS/condoms/the pill etc on this vastly overcrowded planet). Perhaps you have forgoten they have only just forgiven Galileo for dareing to demonstrate that the earth revolves around the sun - over 400 years too late. Religions are just superstition - and the sooner we stop allowing then to fuddle the mind of the young the sooner we will have a more rational (and peaceful) world.
i) teach about the big bang (mentioned in the Quraan 1400 years ago - and I am sure you will agree this is far from being a myth from 4000 years ago that is utterly false!), ii) does talk about the "Theory of evolution" (why is it called a theory?) iii) age of planets and other sciencetic evidence - well sceince is an obligation for Muslims to learn.
Perhaps it would benefit everyone to study something before passing judgment on it. Did you know the Quraan mentioned clearly about the earth revolving around the Sun 1400 years ago. But because you have been taught that it was Galileo that first came up with this you don't want to accept something old, religious and in your view "mythical" could have some relevance.
lighting up leyton, Leyton says...
10:13am Mon 25 Jan 10
Does accept non-Muslim pupils, has had non-Muslim teachers and staff, is completely self-financing and has at the top of its agenda "integration" which Ofsted has quoted as saying many state schools could learn from what this Islamic school is doing regarding integration. And yes, English is the spoken language of the school.
I do hope this new school in Southampton does the same.
freefinker, southampton says...
10:36am Mon 25 Jan 10
I don't see, however, how indoctrinating suseptable minds with untrue nonesense is going to either improve the system or benefit the individual children.
Religions (or at least the Hebrew, Christian and Islamic religions) are, by ethos, the opposite of the enlightenment that is needed to stimulate minds and give children a true view of the world. They all teach are a series of lies and that can't be in any way beneficial.
We have made progress in our understanding of cosmology, physics, biology, etc, over the last 500 years despite religions - who have murdered, persecuted, imprisoned, etc, whose who have demonstrated the falsehoods of the many religious myths.
Religions should have no say what-so-ever in our education system as they perpetuate unfounded myths and downright lies.
They are not a soultion to improving education in Southampton as their intention is to indoctrinate minds into believing in what is blatantly untrue.
King Mush, Woolston says...
10:49am Mon 25 Jan 10
No further comment needed and on a par with most religious texts across the centuries.
However, I do concur that many of these Bibles do have a degree of common sense and lay down guidelines for a well balanced life in between the nonsense. Unfortunately - the volatile mix of religion, politics and the need to expand borders and subjugate neighbouring lands has long been the root cause for the world's troubles ever since.
Many atheists, agnostics, humanists etc were probably brought up to believe in what the parents followed. However - once a person matures and (hopefully) starts to think for themselves then they will make their own minds up and not be 'pressurised' into following the crowd.
This is where extremism and fundamentalism creep in and we all aware of how tiny but vociferous minorities have been allowed to hi-jack their own religions and use them in perverted ways much to the chagrin of the silent majority.
I note the amusing references to 'prophesies' in the Koran, Bible etc and I must confess that I was fascinated by the writings of Nostradamus and his own amazing 'revelations' Then, upon some studying I realised that by writing in Latin+old French 'riddles' (due to his fear of being tried for heresy etc) the ambiguous nature became clear to me. Words, languages, dialects plus misinterpretation is the common denominator of what is wrong with any religion based community. Nostradamus' 'prophesies' are on the same level as any religious text.
I do not wish to be arrogant in my beliefs and mostly respect anybody's belief. As far as the Muslim question is concerned - we see the results of male chauvinism on our UK streets as many of their womenfolk are clad in burkas despite no mention of this in the Koran - just basic teachings on 'modesty'. This has alienated the indigenous population and the French are now seeing fit to do something about this provocative subject
freefinker, southampton says...
11:25am Mon 25 Jan 10
1) I did not mention the "theory" of evolution quite deliberately because it is a FACT. There is no longer any serious scientific dispute on this - we are descended from apes, and back further fish, and further still to the origins of life on this planet. There is no need for "divine intervention" or your mythical Allah/God/Jehovah. It is you who casts some implied doubt on evolution by implying it is only a "theory". There is no excuse for teaching anything other than the fact of evolution in any school - but this is not what wappens in religious schools is it? You like to pretend that evolution should have equal status with your own particular creation myth.
2) Islam, as with Christianity before it, is interconnected with the Jewish belief systems as outlined in Genesis. That's where the 4000 year old myths come in - world created in 7 days, Adam & Eve, etc, etc. It's rubbish - but underlies all 3 religions.
3) I agree there was a golden age of Islamic science - but, quite frankly, there has been virtually no progress in this respect for the best part of a millenium. In fact, if you look at the ignorance of true science in most of the Islamic world today it is rivaled only by the fundamentalist Christians of the US and the ultra-orthodox Jews. You are all the same in wanting to believe in your totally disproved creation myths.
4) Oh, so the Koran got the big-bang spot on 1600 years ago did it? I think not. The singularity, inflation, the formation of galaxies, the approx 13 billion year time scale involved - they are all there in the Koran then, are they? You delude yourself if you think the Koran (or the Bible/Torah) have anything relevant to say on the origins of the universe - and delusion, of course, is the main business of all 3 of these religions.
southy, redbridge says...
12:24pm Mon 25 Jan 10
Condor Man wrote:ah dont forget the durids where teachers them selfs, and britian was the centre of teaching and education for the whole off gaelic europe, way before any single mono excised or invented.
WalkingOnAWire wrote:oh ye of little (or no) faith. If you knew your history you would know that our education system was founded by churches- from village schools to Oxbridge Colleges. Whether or not you actually believe in a god you can't dispute the fact that churches have been founding schools ever since the reformation when the bible was translated into English and people in non-conformist churches were encouraged to read. The mediocrity of schools in Southampton says to me that if Muslims want to educate their children their own way so be it.
The problem is simple. There is no proof that God, Jehovah, Allah, or whatever people choose to worship, exists. It is no more rational to fund an education based on the tenets of ANY religion than it is to teach that the earth is flat or that the moon is made of green cheese. The Christian, Jewish and Muslim world views all 'blaspheme' each other and sow the seeds for conflicts all over the world. Choosing to perpetuate them by enshrining them within the education system is short-sighted and lets all our children down. I include all faith-based schools in this, including the existing ones.
freefinker, southampton says...
12:29pm Mon 25 Jan 10
That a whole religion is based upon the "revelations" of a mythical angel speaks volumes, does it not?
Religion is all delusion. It always has been.
It is only education that will eventually weaken it's hold over the vulnerable - which is why religions should have no say what-so-ever in educating our children.
Paramjit Bahia, Southampton says...
1:16pm Mon 25 Jan 10
The society has to decide who should be responsible for providing education to our children.
I do not believe in handing over the education of children to ‘flat earth mob’, which ever battalion of God Brigade they belong to.
Religions are conning the public by claiming the credit for providing the education, while in fact large amounts of money get claimed from public funds for this purpose. Public schools (Private snob factories) also do the same.
I can’t deny that many schools run by various religions provide good education.
Answer to the problem is to demand why local authorities like Southampton are failing to do the same.
We should be demanding from our political class to improve school standards. Only then we will be able to argue for total ban on ALL RELIGIONS from operating schools.
Paramjit Bahia, Southampton says...
1:23pm Mon 25 Jan 10
freefinker wrote:"Religion is the opium of working class" said very intelligent man, now resident of a grave in Highgate Cemetery.
King Mush, I think further comment is needed on your first paragraph. That a whole religion is based upon the "revelations" of a mythical angel speaks volumes, does it not? Religion is all delusion. It always has been. It is only education that will eventually weaken it's hold over the vulnerable - which is why religions should have no say what-so-ever in educating our children.
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
1:58pm Mon 25 Jan 10
'ah dont forget the durids where teachers them selfs, and britian was the centre of teaching and education for the whole off gaelic europe, way before any single mono excised or invented.'
For the benefit of the rest of us, would you try turning this into English?
southy, redbridge says...
2:31pm Mon 25 Jan 10
WalkingOnAWire wrote:you lacking in history knowledge, i did miss out one word lo.
@Southy:
'ah dont forget the durids where teachers them selfs, and britian was the centre of teaching and education for the whole off gaelic europe, way before any single mono excised or invented.'
For the benefit of the rest of us, would you try turning this into English?
should of said this "way before any single mono god excised or invented"
Stephen J, Fareham says...
2:36pm Mon 25 Jan 10
Paramjit Bahia wrote:He actually said "It is the opium of the people." All people. This was not the simple condemnation of religion it is often taken to be, it was a criticism of the society that produces a need for religion. "The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo," he said. Marx's words are a call to action to change society, not some lazy, sneering attack on religion of the kind we might read on this page.
freefinker wrote: King Mush, I think further comment is needed on your first paragraph. That a whole religion is based upon the "revelations" of a mythical angel speaks volumes, does it not? Religion is all delusion. It always has been. It is only education that will eventually weaken it's hold over the vulnerable - which is why religions should have no say what-so-ever in educating our children."Religion is the opium of working class" said very intelligent man, now resident of a grave in Highgate Cemetery.
King Mush, Woolston says...
2:38pm Mon 25 Jan 10
WalkingOnAWire wrote:I presume that 'Walking' is new here? Southy may not always be able to get his ideas across in a 100% literary way but he generally puts across some very good points, although some of us puill him up on his ultra-socialist views.
@Southy:
'ah dont forget the durids where teachers them selfs, and britian was the centre of teaching and education for the whole off gaelic europe, way before any single mono excised or invented.'
For the benefit of the rest of us, would you try turning this into English?
;o)
King Mush, Woolston says...
2:51pm Mon 25 Jan 10
Paramjit Bahia wrote:freefinker: My first paragraph was intended to illlustrate my overall conceptions. When I was a kid, I used to go to church and Sunday School but not forcibly. I enjoyed the tales of Moses, burning bushes, miracles,plagues of Egypt and the stirring stories surrounding the life of a man called Jesus. I enjoyed these on the same level as say Treasure Island, Alice In Wonderland, Gullivers Travels Huckleberry Finn and all manner of fiction.
freefinker wrote:"Religion is the opium of working class" said very intelligent man, now resident of a grave in Highgate Cemetery.
King Mush, I think further comment is needed on your first paragraph. That a whole religion is based upon the "revelations" of a mythical angel speaks volumes, does it not? Religion is all delusion. It always has been. It is only education that will eventually weaken it's hold over the vulnerable - which is why religions should have no say what-so-ever in educating our children.
As I got older and more read, then the doubts crept in as I questioned what I had been absorbing. Debating religion with people of all ages, race, creed and colour I realised the naivety of so many, when faced with scientific fact.
It was comparable to realising that Santa and the Tooth Fairy were not as credible as I had first thought.
As for Karl Marx? His oft-quoted damnation speaks volumes in a few words and still stands up. On a personal level - he was not intelligent enough as far as his own lifestyle was concerned. Perhaps his radical views on Communism and Socialism did not pan out as well as he would have liked. Twentieth Century history showed that perhaps HE was a false 'prophet'?
He couldnt even manage his own finances from what I have learnt about him
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
2:52pm Mon 25 Jan 10
southy, redbridge says...
3:08pm Mon 25 Jan 10
WalkingOnAWire wrote:well i use to getting attack by the fools on the hill who think they are better than the ordinary person of the street.
Yes, I'm new here. Southy, it's not polite to say I'm lacking in history knowledge when all I asked was for you to write more clearly so I could understand what you said. How can you possibly know what knowledge I do or don't have? I think I see your point now. How is it relevant to this debate - should we be allowing the Druids to establish a school here too? Maybe we should - it's as valid as any other religious view, after all! Human sacrifice, anyone?
well if your going to allow the religious teaching in schools then it should be all types of religion, so yes why not have a durid school, like andy has all ready said we should have pagan schools also, you cant one have one with the other,
one thing i would like to see in schools proper religious history lessons base on true facts, like where it all started and how it changed down though the ages, and who was the 3 nations or kingdoms that spark of the change of events from going to pagan gods to mono gods, and whitch storys belong where, like the adam and eve is pagan, the great flood is pagan ect ect ect
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
3:18pm Mon 25 Jan 10
southy, redbridge says...
3:31pm Mon 25 Jan 10
freefinker, southampton says...
3:38pm Mon 25 Jan 10
It's just that when you correctly pointed out in your previous first paragraph that Islam if based on the "revelations" of an angel, and you then say "No further comment is needed ..", I for one think that further comment is needed.
That a whole religion is founded on such nonesense deserves much further comment - especially when the current pushers of such myths (and the Jews & Christians are equally as bad) are not only attempting, but succeeding, in infiltrating the education system in the UK.
Quite frankly, it's an outrage that we should let these myth-purveyors anywhere near our children - they deserve much better.
And, I take your point about the biblical-story based upbringing both you and I had at school - and how we managed to see through it as we grew up and faced the reality of life. But it is a very different matter in many Islamic countries, the ultra-orthadox Jewish communities and in fundamentalist areas of the USA. In these places this religious indoctrination hold the ring and any children who dare to question this belief system are threatened with death, eternal damnation and such like.
Religions are culturally transmitted by the indoctrination of the young. We must put a stop to such nonsense if we wish to live in a more sane and peaceful world.
Islamic schools in the UK are trying to take young children out of the liberal(ish) education system of our childhood and isolate them in Arabic and Koran studies, the "science" of ancient myths, belief in mythical entities, and denying then a totally fact-based true scientific education.
This is not far short of (mental) child abuse.
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
3:51pm Mon 25 Jan 10
lim child.' By all means let people believe what they want - this is a free society - but let it not be made a structural part of our education system.
southy, redbridge says...
4:20pm Mon 25 Jan 10
WalkingOnAWire wrote:what you mean is when a child is born it has no concept. of what creed colour or race it is.
@freefinker: very well put. I'm with Richard Dawkins on this one - 'there is no such thing as a Christian/Jewish/Mus
lim child.' By all means let people believe what they want - this is a free society - but let it not be made a structural part of our education system.
km ultra socialist not me i just your plain old socialist, a ordinary people socialist.
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
4:30pm Mon 25 Jan 10
King Mush, Woolston says...
7:40pm Mon 25 Jan 10
We all know that most religions are based on the fear of the 'unknown' and it has been a useful psychological cudgel over the centuries.
One can maybe understand why a 21st C simple illiterate desert-dweller can be sucked ito believing any hogwash that is rammed down his/her throat by elders or even local warlords. It is subjugation of the masses and keeps many 'in check'
However - in the rest of the fairly educated world we see strife and misery all around but mostly caused by the idiots at the top. Many volatile countries such as Iran are ruled by mullahs and imams much to the detriment of their people (mostly young and educated)
We also know that many Muslims resent 'foreigners' on their (holy-yawn) lands despite decades of help, investment and much more to try and bring the countries in line with modern civilisation. Yes - we have an agenda as far as our dependency on the oil which (sadly) lies mostly under their deserts.
No win situation? Not forgetting that most of our recent terrorist acts are plotted by an ever changing mobile force that move across borders and cause upheaval by blowing up their own 'brothers' in an effort to destabilise the country.
All in the name of Allah and their main 7th C prophet. Unbelievable
Vconfused, Romsey says...
10:10pm Mon 25 Jan 10
I think you are all under-estimating children. It is very difficult to 'indoctrinate' a child in a western culture today. Very few children I know are religious, even when their families are, and I have spoken to several 11 and 12 year olds who have given the issue more thought than I ever did at their age.
While in an ideal world I think there should be no religious schools, I think it is important that we be equal and fair. Unless the government brings in a law effectively banning independent schools, and then makes all state schools non-denominational, there will always be religious schools. And the time for that is nowhere close. For one thing the state schools are so bad, for another the politicians all send their children to private schools anyway, so wouldn't vote for it.
And the fact that people are on here talking about education without being able to construct a sentence, is the thing we should be really concerned about at the moment, not who funds the schools.
King Mush, Woolston says...
10:46pm Mon 25 Jan 10
I dont think that any 'beliefs' should be imposed on others by stealth or indoctrination. There are many 'beliefs' with submenus and wouldnt it be Utopia if only everybody could follow whichever path they chose.
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
10:52pm Mon 25 Jan 10
freefinker, southampton says...
12:16am Tue 26 Jan 10
"Any religion is a system of belief. If you are an atheist, that is a belief"
-
Religious belief in myths (Universe built in 7 days less than 10,000 years ago, Adam & Eve, virgin birth, rising from the dead, angels, life after death, heaven, and, strangest of all, this "entity" called jehovah/god/allah) is quite clearly a form of self-delusion. There is absolutely not the slightest shred of evidence for any of it. Religious followers, however, have faith that these beliefs are real and true. That's why they are often collectively called "faiths" - defined, indeed, as "strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based upon spiritual apprehension rather than proof".
Get that? .. "rather than proof".
My "beliefs" are considerably more tangible for they all rely proof. The quest for scientific knowledge, particularly over the last 150 years, has built up an enormous body of knowledge which, pretty-much, explains "life, the universe and everything".
So, now mankind has this demonstratable knowledge, why oh why can't some people see it, wonder at it's intricate complexity, and wholehartedly embrace it. Because it's true.
So, as a so called athiest you want to somehow tag my evidence based understanding of the universe with a "belief" label and suggest one should make a direct comparison with the unsubstanciated, and quite frankly idiotic, "belief" paraphernalia of some rather old and discredited religions.
So, I "believe" you treat me very unfairly with this comparrison. You really do have to distinguish between belief applicable to religion, and it's more collocquial meaning of the word. I "believe" Napoleon existed even though I did not witness it. But many others did and have left us with copious written documentary evidence.
And, yes, I did once have belief. But by the age of about 6 my parent shattered both the father christmas and tooth fairy myths for me. It really is about time that these religious "believers" realised that the mythical beings of their religions are just that - myths. They need to grow up and start living in the real world.
Vconfused, Romsey says...
6:51pm Tue 26 Jan 10
matts, southampton says...
10:16pm Tue 26 Jan 10
King Mush, Woolston says...
1:22am Wed 27 Jan 10
Vconfused wrote:Very little 'evidence' around as far as JC goes as opposed to more recent historical figures who have been well documented, painted, photographed thanks to the last 1'000 years or so.
Interestingly if you consider written evidence proof, I think there is considerably more evidence Jesus existed than many 'historical' figures. I am not at all religious, I just think it is important for everyone to keep an open mind. I don't like people saying I am right and you are totally deluded, whether they are religious or not.
I think that most of can accept there was this person but the myths have simply evolved from ancient hearsay and exaggeration by whoever 'wrote' about him and his followers.
The Turin Shroud circus has thrown some of it into perspective although the evidence does seem to point to one of the biggest hoaxes of all time.
The world would have been a far better place if this (mostly)peaceful 'religion' had not been usurped by the emergence of a certain 7th C 'prophet' in the East. The rest is unfortunately our history and boy - are we are suffering now!
freefinker, southampton says...
1:02pm Wed 27 Jan 10
I think it is fairly save to say that Napoleon DID exist, so it is not just a "belief". The only alternative is that there has been a massive conspiracy, that has now existed for over 200 years, to falsify a non-existant character into history - and of course to falisfy all the wars he started, his exiles, etc, etc.
Now the web is full of the wackiest of conspiricy theories but a google search reveals none like this. So, it is not just "written evidence" (I could now "write" down this "no Napoleon" theory and put it out on the web), it's the accumulation of indisputable history and the consequences that have followed from it.
Now, history-deniers are quite rightly condemned for attempting to re-write what actually happened in the past - think for example of the obnoxious Holocaust-deners.
But the "science-deniers" are, morally, equally as bad. And who are the science-deniers? Religions. As a society we should be treating these science-deniers with the same contempt that we treat the history-deniers. But for some reason which is not apparent to me, we let these idiots run schools that are dedicated to perpetuating these lies. Why?
Another thing, I have at no time even insinuated that the person we now call Jesus did not exist. He almost certainly did. But he was JUST a radical non-conformist Jew whose arguements were with the religious establishment - not a son-of-god or the product of a virgin birth. His story was written up many, many years after his death and, quite obviously, greatly embellished. Just like you or I he was subject to the laws of science - i.e no walking on water, etc, etc.
And again, I don't deny Muhammad existed as the evidence is comprehensive. But as for one imaginary entity, allah, passing on his final word to mankind via another imaginary entity, the archangel gabriel, to this individual - well, it's obviously nonsense, for which absolutely zero evidence exists. It is just a "belief" that deluded people cling to, despite the overwhelming evidence that it is pure fantisy.
Vconfused, Romsey says...
6:38pm Wed 27 Jan 10
freefinker, southampton says...
8:03pm Wed 27 Jan 10
You obviously do NOT understand what science is and how it works. For you to say "There is also a certain amount of faith required in science" when I have already provided you with the dictionary definition of "faith" just confirms this.
Science is accumulative and PROVABLE. Faith is "without proof".
I agree science does not know every single thing, but as I said before it has "built up an enormous body of knowledge which, pretty-much, explains 'life, the universe and everything'."
It works basically by making an assumption and then rigorously testing this assumption under strictly controlled conditions to verify or otherwise the accuracy of the assumption.
What's more it is then being continually tested by other scientists trying to find flaws and errors in previously perceived knowledge.
Thus Newtonian science held sway for centuries until Einstein came along with a better explaination. But Newton was not wrong, oh no. What Einstein did was to ADD to the Newtonian explanation - not discard it.
This empirical scientific revolution has been providing answers with ever increasing accuracy for several centuries now. Our whole modern society is based on it from computers to aviation to medicine to architecture - the list goes on almost to infinity.
Now you might like to consider why religions have been so hostile to science for so long. Why would you think?
It's because science give much better and verifiable explanation to "life, the universe and everything". It disproves conclusively the creation myths of the three Abrahamic religions (and these religions, you may recall, have been the cause of so much death and destruction these last few thousand years). It sweeps away their whole rational and confines it to the rubbish bin. There is no longer any need for supernatural explanations - which is ALL religions have to offer.
So, there should be no place for religion in our education system if we aspire to bring knowledge and understanding to our children. Religion is unable to offer anything that is educational, rational or in any way useful in the science-based world of the 21st centuary.
So, when you say "There is nothing wrong with a faith school, necessarily" you are obviously not thinking straight - because religions teach myths that are just plain wrong, and to teach children these lies is not what education should be about in our much more enlightened times.
It's not a matter "live and let live", as you say. In the end it boils down to, do we teach our children the truth or a bunch of lies. In a religious school they get the latter.
Vconfused, Romsey says...
8:56pm Wed 27 Jan 10
(Cue another lecture on science I guess..)
freefinker, southampton says...
9:55pm Wed 27 Jan 10
Unfortunately, due mainly to religious influences (particularly amoungst those originating from the last 100 years of immigration to this country), there are in fact several isolated cultural islands within this country.
And it is religion and religious schools that are at the forefront of this self-imposed apartheid.
Religions are not just "the opium of the people" they are divisive, backward, disruptive to social cohesion, and, quite frankly, an evil influence on the young.
If, as you say, you want "to teach children respect for others, not intolerance." then religion and religious schools are the very last thing you should be standing up for.
Religion - showing tolerence, and respect?? You must be joking. It seems you are not too hot on your history as well as your science.
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
10:24pm Wed 27 Jan 10
Quran 22.20 : With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.
Quran 22.21 : And for them are whips of iron.
Quran 76.4 : For the Rejecters we have prepared chains, yokes, and a blazing Fire.
You say you 'are not all religious': so as far as a devout believer in Isalm is concerned, the above applies to you! Do you still feel tolerant now?
freefinker, southampton says...
10:58pm Wed 27 Jan 10
If you're still there Vconfused, how come almost every army, fighting almost every war, for the last few millennia, have always had "god on their side"? A never ending stream of religious leaders "blessing" the troops into battle to kill the enemy. Don't call that "showing tolerence", do you?
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
1:34am Thu 28 Jan 10
WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
1:52am Thu 28 Jan 10
Vconfused, Romsey says...
6:21pm Fri 5 Feb 10
freefinker, southampton says...
12:19am Tue 9 Feb 10
I take your points and I'm feeling a little conciliatory this evening.
I personally think the law needs to be changed to ban the preaching and teaching of any single religion in all schools (private or state funded).
That does not preclude the teaching of the philosophy and practices of all religions; giving equal weight to each.
Despite all my efforts to convince others that this course of action will greatly benefit social cohesion, integration and particularly the turning out of well balanced and rational young adults, I think it will be a long time coming.
Unfortunately we seem to be going backward with the expansion of religious schools, which directly lead to cultural and social isolation, the continuance of ignorance, etc, etc
It’s a backward and retrograde step that society is taking by allowing these myth pushers to have even more influence over our children
A girl studies the Qur’an at Noor Ul Islam Primary School, Leyton, east London
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WalkingOnAWire, Southampton says...
9:32pm Sun 24 Jan 10