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12:00pm Sunday 3rd April 2011 in News Review
Southampton has been my home for all 60 years of my life, and like so many other local people I have enormous pride in the city’s unique heritage, which will always be inextricably linked with ships and seafarers.
The recent spat between my home city and Liverpool, over the northerners’ use of many millions of pounds of “state aid’’ to back plans to become a turnaround port for cruise ships, has been particularly galling.
To make matters worse it now seems likely Southampton’s rival will get its way, but only after the Minister of Shipping appears to have caved in and let Liverpool off paying back the full £21m it was originally handed to build a waterfront berth.
This cannot be fair and I have great difficulty in understanding the claim by Southampton City Council this disappointing outcome is somehow a “victory’’ for us in Hampshire.
It has taken years of hard work, together with the investment of huge sums of private money, to make Southampton what it is today. Now Liverpool, for decades a comparative backwater as far as the international cruising industry was concerned, wants to greedily piggy-back on our hard-earned success.
Southampton can rightly claim to have been a major contributor in building up the UK’s extremely healthy cruising industry to the dizzy heights it now enjoys. Liverpool, whose heyday as a centre for passenger liners remains in the past, cannot make any such claim.
I don’t think for one minute the northern port has the ability, facilities and expertise to make any sizeable dent in our city’s cruise trade, but that is not the point.
Government permission should have only been granted if Liverpool stumped-up every penny of its free handout. Instead its looks as if the pay-back is only going to be a fraction of the original amount and then handed over in dribs and drabs.
This is no victory for Southampton. Fiscal rules should be adhered to, and, whatever way you look at it, Liver-pool, now anticipating a nod of approval from the Government, has twisted and turned these regulations for its own ends.
Perhaps Liverpool will attract some cruise ships, although these are likely to be operated by only smaller companies, but it is going to be a hard, uphill task to tempt the major lines away from Southampton.
This is not complacency, but hard facts.
Southampton has four, soon to be five, purpose-built passenger terminals, capable of handling thousands of passengers in a day.
Liverpool has one small terminal on a floating pontoon.
Southampton can easily accommodate large numbers of trucks bringing stores and supplies on the dockside, right next to the ships.
Liverpool, at present, cannot.
Southampton has a highly skilled workforce, which knows, and understands, the complexities of handling the biggest cruise ships in the world.
Liverpool does not.
Southampton expects to see more than one million cruise passengers use the port in 2011.
Liverpool has no such expectations.
A number of ships do already visit Liverpool, mostly for passengers to take shore excursions, and it has to be said, the city’s waterfront, with its “Three Graces’’ and Liver Bird, is a remarkable backdrop for a port-of-call during a voyage.
Southampton, on the other hand, cannot boast of such imposing buildings, although the view would be greatly improved if the charred remains of the old Royal Pier were cleaned up, but that is another story.
Healthy competition keeps everybody on their toes, and a monopoly in any business is bad for all concerned, but all the players need equal opportunities.
Obviously, no ship will ever set sail on a “level playing field’’, but this is what should have happened in this tussle between north and south.
Comments(25)
Scrutinizer
says...
3:50pm Sun 3 Apr 11
frisbydyke
says...
5:33pm Sun 3 Apr 11
MerseyMart
says...
5:39pm Sun 3 Apr 11
StEmmosfire
says...
5:49pm Sun 3 Apr 11
99wardlek
says...
6:06pm Sun 3 Apr 11
georgetheseventh
says...
7:06pm Sun 3 Apr 11
Condor Man
says...
7:36pm Sun 3 Apr 11
Scrutinizer
says...
7:45pm Sun 3 Apr 11
georgetheseventh wrote:Hey soft lad, don't be bein' like dat like! Achchally I've got loadso'mates from de 'pool. Oh aye. I'm goin' to visit one lata. Yeah, only ting is like, it's a bit of a pain when da guards insist on sirchin' me before I go in! Oh! How tickled I am! ;-)
I have read some of the posts..including the sarcastic ones referring to stolen hub-caps etc. Maybe its time people realised a couple of points here. Firstly, as an 'offshore' company your port owners pay not a penny to the national purse. Secondly, recent funding from the governments TIF (transport initiative fund) resulted in a measly £1. 8 m (one point eight) compared to £100 million to Southampton and Felixstowe. I have friends and relatives in the Southampton area..(they dont do hub-caps) I like Southampton people (todate)...it would be awful sad if the two cities fell out, considering we are the historic home of the liner.
The Watcher
says...
8:16pm Sun 3 Apr 11
John Sydenham
says...
8:30pm Sun 3 Apr 11
loosehead
says...
9:23pm Sun 3 Apr 11
MerseyMart wrote:Merseymart we have had several posts on this & I've wished Liverpool luck but you say people would rather fly to a foreign port than come to a remote southern port ! this makes you no better than the people who characterise all scousers as thieves & shows that you & the people have got a huge chip on your shoulders about southerners.if I could get a flight from Liverpool/Manchester or France I personally would travel up north rather go twenty to eighty miles to France one reason I would want to keep jobs in this country & the second reason is because even though it's a lot closer I'm to in love with the French I wish Liverpool hadn't been so deceitful about this.I have no hatred towards Portsmouth that's foot fans but there is a lot of animosity between the two cities so when you ( liverpool)after lying to get the grant went & asked Pompey to back you that was like waving a red flag to a bull & now you're getting the venom that's usually reserved for Pompey fans you(Liverpool docks) need to talk & come to a compromise with all the major ports or maybe in the way of the free market they price you out of the market it's now time to play fair & be honest & take no notice of idiots
You can't help but admit that Liverpool has an uphill struggle to take on the might of Southampton but remember one thing. Liverpool is the most central of British cities and counts the conurbations of Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and the West Midlands within two hour road and rail distance.
We have a market for cruising that has been largely untapped - many people in the north of England wanting to go on a cruise would rather fly to an overseas cruise liner port than travel to the remote south coast.
This much-disputed grant money went to pay for a floating landing stage - not lavish facilities for cruise passengers. That is something that you don't need at Southampton because you don't have the high tidal range of the Mersey.
I don't think that you have much to fear from Liverpool and the competition may well have the effect of expanding the market to Southampton's benefit. All the same, there is a certain complacency evident in this article that Liverpool could do well to take notice of.
Ben Doone
says...
10:13am Mon 4 Apr 11
99wardlek wrote:What on earth is a 'legally enforced monopoly'?
The sense of bitterness in this article is slightly embarrassing. Southampton's legally enforced monopoly is the biggest joke regarding this story. That 'northern port' has a wealth of culture, world class architecture and incredibly welcoming people. I'm proud of the solent's role within cruising but we need to adapt. Competition will make us improve, I'm sure. You cannot quote the importance of private enterprise and squeal about the loss of a govermentally granted monopoly. Let's move on! Good luck Southampton and good luck liverpool. For everyone up there, we're not all bitter fools!
Ben Doone
says...
10:23am Mon 4 Apr 11
georgetheseventh wrote:George
I have read some of the posts..including the sarcastic ones referring to stolen hub-caps etc. Maybe its time people realised a couple of points here. Firstly, as an 'offshore' company your port owners pay not a penny to the national purse. Secondly, recent funding from the governments TIF (transport initiative fund) resulted in a measly £1. 8 m (one point eight) compared to £100 million to Southampton and Felixstowe. I have friends and relatives in the Southampton area..(they dont do hub-caps) I like Southampton people (todate)...it would be awful sad if the two cities fell out, considering we are the historic home of the liner.
georgetheseventh
says...
10:51am Mon 4 Apr 11
BrixtonSaint
says...
11:07am Mon 4 Apr 11
Ben Doone
says...
1:54pm Mon 4 Apr 11
georgetheseventh wrote:George
Sorry Ben..I would question your statistics regarding the 12% . Peels owner lives in the I.O.M true and pays no 'personal' taxes to our government. The company is based in Manchester and registered in Manchester..plus it is only part owned by Whittaker (46%) same as his airport business. Its where the company is registered that counts. As for your calculation of our EU funding etc..I dont doubt it...but hasnt Southampton..Felixst owe etc received similar funding ??
arizonan
says...
4:01pm Mon 4 Apr 11
georgetheseventh
says...
5:28pm Mon 4 Apr 11
MerseyMart
says...
7:47pm Mon 4 Apr 11
loosehead wrote:To answer Loosehead's comments (can't seem to get the quote to work).
MerseyMart wrote: You can't help but admit that Liverpool has an uphill struggle to take on the might of Southampton but remember one thing. Liverpool is the most central of British cities and counts the conurbations of Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and the West Midlands within two hour road and rail distance. We have a market for cruising that has been largely untapped - many people in the north of England wanting to go on a cruise would rather fly to an overseas cruise liner port than travel to the remote south coast. This much-disputed grant money went to pay for a floating landing stage - not lavish facilities for cruise passengers. That is something that you don't need at Southampton because you don't have the high tidal range of the Mersey. I don't think that you have much to fear from Liverpool and the competition may well have the effect of expanding the market to Southampton's benefit. All the same, there is a certain complacency evident in this article that Liverpool could do well to take notice of.Merseymart we have had several posts on this & I've wished Liverpool luck but you say people would rather fly to a foreign port than come to a remote southern port ! this makes you no better than the people who characterise all scousers as thieves & shows that you & the people have got a huge chip on your shoulders about southerners.if I could get a flight from Liverpool/Manchester or France I personally would travel up north rather go twenty to eighty miles to France one reason I would want to keep jobs in this country & the second reason is because even though it's a lot closer I'm to in love with the French I wish Liverpool hadn't been so deceitful about this.I have no hatred towards Portsmouth that's foot fans but there is a lot of animosity between the two cities so when you ( liverpool)after lying to get the grant went & asked Pompey to back you that was like waving a red flag to a bull & now you're getting the venom that's usually reserved for Pompey fans you(Liverpool docks) need to talk & come to a compromise with all the major ports or maybe in the way of the free market they price you out of the market it's now time to play fair & be honest & take no notice of idiots
loosehead
says...
9:18pm Mon 4 Apr 11
MerseyMart wrote:Merseymart don't you listen to your own people? in an interview the Labour council chief said that from the second they put in for the grant an application to change it was being prepared so to say & agree to one thing but all the time knowing that is not what you want but the end justifies the means & to ask for a grant for a new terminal for visiting passengers while already preparing for a change in usage is a lie what else could you call it? Unlike Georgetheseventh I would love to see full employment North & South.also if the rail improvement was totally government funded why is ABP putting a £3-00 surcharge on all containers to try & recoup the millions they spent on the project? How much did Liverpool contribute towards the new visitors terminal?
loosehead wrote:To answer Loosehead's comments (can't seem to get the quote to work).
MerseyMart wrote: You can't help but admit that Liverpool has an uphill struggle to take on the might of Southampton but remember one thing. Liverpool is the most central of British cities and counts the conurbations of Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and the West Midlands within two hour road and rail distance. We have a market for cruising that has been largely untapped - many people in the north of England wanting to go on a cruise would rather fly to an overseas cruise liner port than travel to the remote south coast. This much-disputed grant money went to pay for a floating landing stage - not lavish facilities for cruise passengers. That is something that you don't need at Southampton because you don't have the high tidal range of the Mersey. I don't think that you have much to fear from Liverpool and the competition may well have the effect of expanding the market to Southampton's benefit. All the same, there is a certain complacency evident in this article that Liverpool could do well to take notice of.Merseymart we have had several posts on this & I've wished Liverpool luck but you say people would rather fly to a foreign port than come to a remote southern port ! this makes you no better than the people who characterise all scousers as thieves & shows that you & the people have got a huge chip on your shoulders about southerners.if I could get a flight from Liverpool/Manchester or France I personally would travel up north rather go twenty to eighty miles to France one reason I would want to keep jobs in this country & the second reason is because even though it's a lot closer I'm to in love with the French I wish Liverpool hadn't been so deceitful about this.I have no hatred towards Portsmouth that's foot fans but there is a lot of animosity between the two cities so when you ( liverpool)after lying to get the grant went & asked Pompey to back you that was like waving a red flag to a bull & now you're getting the venom that's usually reserved for Pompey fans you(Liverpool docks) need to talk & come to a compromise with all the major ports or maybe in the way of the free market they price you out of the market it's now time to play fair & be honest & take no notice of idiots
I don't know why my simple statement of fact about Liverpool cruise passengers wanting to use a foreign port should upset you so much.
From Liverpool it takes around five hours to drive to Soton and a similar time by train. In that time, we could fly to Barcelona or be over half way to Miami.
Its not that we have anything against Soton, it is just more convenient. People that concerned about spending money in this country would probably not take cruises at all.
Southampton is a great port for those living in the South of England but not for anywhere north of Birmingham.
I don't accept that Liverpool lied to get funding for our cruise liner terminal. Until 2008, any cruise ship arriving in the Mersey had to anchor in mid-river with tugs in attendance and tender vessels to ferry passengers to the landing stage.
The construction of the new terminal allowed cruise passengers direct access to the city and increased visits by cruise liners. It soon became apparent though that Liverpool needed to become a port of embarkation to maximise the throughput of passengers - hence the approach to government to see if the terms of the grant could be renegotiated.
Remember also, that despite all the emotion generated on this subject, nobody seems to know just what terms have been agreed for the repayment of the loan - including the author of the above article.
georgetheseventh
says...
10:10pm Tue 5 Apr 11
georgetheseventh
says...
10:13pm Tue 5 Apr 11
georgetheseventh
says...
10:21pm Tue 5 Apr 11
MerseyMart
says...
11:24pm Tue 5 Apr 11
loosehead wrote:Loosehead,
MerseyMart wrote:Merseymart don't you listen to your own people? in an interview the Labour council chief said that from the second they put in for the grant an application to change it was being prepared so to say & agree to one thing but all the time knowing that is not what you want but the end justifies the means & to ask for a grant for a new terminal for visiting passengers while already preparing for a change in usage is a lie what else could you call it? Unlike Georgetheseventh I would love to see full employment North & South.also if the rail improvement was totally government funded why is ABP putting a £3-00 surcharge on all containers to try & recoup the millions they spent on the project? How much did Liverpool contribute towards the new visitors terminal?loosehead wrote:To answer Loosehead's comments (can't seem to get the quote to work). I don't know why my simple statement of fact about Liverpool cruise passengers wanting to use a foreign port should upset you so much. From Liverpool it takes around five hours to drive to Soton and a similar time by train. In that time, we could fly to Barcelona or be over half way to Miami. Its not that we have anything against Soton, it is just more convenient. People that concerned about spending money in this country would probably not take cruises at all. Southampton is a great port for those living in the South of England but not for anywhere north of Birmingham. I don't accept that Liverpool lied to get funding for our cruise liner terminal. Until 2008, any cruise ship arriving in the Mersey had to anchor in mid-river with tugs in attendance and tender vessels to ferry passengers to the landing stage. The construction of the new terminal allowed cruise passengers direct access to the city and increased visits by cruise liners. It soon became apparent though that Liverpool needed to become a port of embarkation to maximise the throughput of passengers - hence the approach to government to see if the terms of the grant could be renegotiated. Remember also, that despite all the emotion generated on this subject, nobody seems to know just what terms have been agreed for the repayment of the loan - including the author of the above article.MerseyMart wrote: You can't help but admit that Liverpool has an uphill struggle to take on the might of Southampton but remember one thing. Liverpool is the most central of British cities and counts the conurbations of Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and the West Midlands within two hour road and rail distance. We have a market for cruising that has been largely untapped - many people in the north of England wanting to go on a cruise would rather fly to an overseas cruise liner port than travel to the remote south coast. This much-disputed grant money went to pay for a floating landing stage - not lavish facilities for cruise passengers. That is something that you don't need at Southampton because you don't have the high tidal range of the Mersey. I don't think that you have much to fear from Liverpool and the competition may well have the effect of expanding the market to Southampton's benefit. All the same, there is a certain complacency evident in this article that Liverpool could do well to take notice of.Merseymart we have had several posts on this & I've wished Liverpool luck but you say people would rather fly to a foreign port than come to a remote southern port ! this makes you no better than the people who characterise all scousers as thieves & shows that you & the people have got a huge chip on your shoulders about southerners.if I could get a flight from Liverpool/Manchester or France I personally would travel up north rather go twenty to eighty miles to France one reason I would want to keep jobs in this country & the second reason is because even though it's a lot closer I'm to in love with the French I wish Liverpool hadn't been so deceitful about this.I have no hatred towards Portsmouth that's foot fans but there is a lot of animosity between the two cities so when you ( liverpool)after lying to get the grant went & asked Pompey to back you that was like waving a red flag to a bull & now you're getting the venom that's usually reserved for Pompey fans you(Liverpool docks) need to talk & come to a compromise with all the major ports or maybe in the way of the free market they price you out of the market it's now time to play fair & be honest & take no notice of idiots
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saints4eva12 says...
12:37pm Sun 3 Apr 11
sw quite app soft talk