Faith groups unite to fight controversial fluoridation plans for Southampton

Daily Echo: Faith groups unite to fight controversial fluoridation plans Faith groups unite to fight controversial fluoridation plans

FAITH groups across Southampton are joining forces to battle against controversial plans to put fluoride in the water.

Religious organisations from across the city are coming together at a public meeting this weekend to discuss ways of combating the plans.

It comes after the Daily Echo yesterday revealed South Central Strategic Health Authority is continuing to press ahead with the scheme, despite there being fewer than three months left before the body is axed by the Government.

Even if the project is not up and running by March 31, responsibility for introducing fluoridation in parts of Southampton, Eastleigh, Totton, Netley and Rownhams will fall to the new body Public Health England.

Councils will have the power to reverse the scheme, but they are likely to have to stage expensive public consultations before making any move.

Despite the authority having previously voted to oppose the plans, Southampton City Council leader Richard Williams admitted there is no money in the cash-strapped council’s budget to fight the scheme.

Health chiefs insist fluoridation is the best way of improving dental health in Southampton, particularly among children in more deprived areas.

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The SHA’s board unanimously approved the scheme in February 2009 despite 72 per cent of the 10,000 respondents who participated in the public consultation saying they opposed the plans, with fears over a lack of democracy and possible side effects.

Health bosses said they were convinced by arguments fluoride will help cut high rates of tooth decay, particularly in under-fives.

At the time the plan was introduced Southampton was said to have had an especially poor record on rates of rotten teeth in children, and although later surveys suggest the situation has improved the SHA has said it remains confident its decision was right.

But although it is working with Southern Water on how best to implement the scheme, bosses admitted they still don’t yet know how much it will cost, or the exact area it will cover.

This weekend’s public meeting is being held at the Gurdwara Nanaksar, in Peterborough Road, Bevois Valley, at 6.30pm on Saturday, with representatives from many of the city’s religious organisations attending to combat the plans.

All are welcome to attend.

Comments (106)

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3:03pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Linesman says...

One way of getting people to go to church I suppose.

A new experience for many I suspect.
One way of getting people to go to church I suppose. A new experience for many I suspect. Linesman

3:14pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Yorkyboy22 says...

In which religious texts is flouridation prohibited? Is it a sin to use toothpaste on the Sabbath?
In which religious texts is flouridation prohibited? Is it a sin to use toothpaste on the Sabbath? Yorkyboy22

3:16pm Tue 8 Jan 13

ToastyTea says...

oh no the religious nuts have come together to form what big religious nut group aghhhh lock your windows and doors.
oh no the religious nuts have come together to form what big religious nut group aghhhh lock your windows and doors. ToastyTea

3:24pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Lockssmart says...

Jesus!
Jesus! Lockssmart

3:25pm Tue 8 Jan 13

stay local says...

Satanists, scientologists, Jehovahs hindus, Jews,Sunnis and Shi'a all sat in a room together taking about fluoride. No that is about as likely as Southy getting elected!

Who are these people, if you cannot name them we must assume it is a made up story.
Satanists, scientologists, Jehovahs hindus, Jews,Sunnis and Shi'a all sat in a room together taking about fluoride. No that is about as likely as Southy getting elected! Who are these people, if you cannot name them we must assume it is a made up story. stay local

3:26pm Tue 8 Jan 13

nyscof says...

Dr. Yolanda Whyte, a primary care pediatrician, explains why she no longer supports water fluoridation. http://www.youtube.c
om/watch?v=6iu9HzaVb
WQ
Dr. Yolanda Whyte, a primary care pediatrician, explains why she no longer supports water fluoridation. http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=6iu9HzaVb WQ nyscof

3:35pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Mary80 says...

Or they could EDUCATE people on how to brush their **** teeth if its that much of a problem.Teaching parents is the sensible option not dumping this stuff willy nilly in water
Or they could EDUCATE people on how to brush their **** teeth if its that much of a problem.Teaching parents is the sensible option not dumping this stuff willy nilly in water Mary80

3:48pm Tue 8 Jan 13

MisterGrimsdale says...

Faith Groups FFS - Well if God didn't want them to brush with fluoride he wouldn't have sat up there on his big holy backside watching this all happen would he.
Faith Groups FFS - Well if God didn't want them to brush with fluoride he wouldn't have sat up there on his big holy backside watching this all happen would he. MisterGrimsdale

3:55pm Tue 8 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

I love this moronic notion that all "faiths" can somehow come together and that "faith" is something that unites them. It doesn't. Wars are fought and millions die because different "faiths" hate each other and not a day goes by without "faith" causing death and misery somewhere. The only people any "faith" should consider taming upwith is atheists who regard them all with equally amused and richly justified contempt.
However I can see some commonality between having "faith" and fluoride hysteria - both require a complete dumb incomprehension about science nature and proportionality.
I love this moronic notion that all "faiths" can somehow come together and that "faith" is something that unites them. It doesn't. Wars are fought and millions die because different "faiths" hate each other and not a day goes by without "faith" causing death and misery somewhere. The only people any "faith" should consider taming upwith is atheists who regard them all with equally amused and richly justified contempt. However I can see some commonality between having "faith" and fluoride hysteria - both require a complete dumb incomprehension about science nature and proportionality. The Wickham Man

4:00pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Dan Soton says...

Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide.
-


JMHO..


1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments.

-



ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS...

see page 38 to 39

figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund.


• There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications.

FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million


Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received.


-

http://www.rarercanc
ers.org.uk/images/st
ories/news/pdf/0611/
funding_cancer_drugs
_final.pdf


also.

-

http://www.guardian.
co.uk/society/blog/2
011/jun/09/nhs-refor
ms-live-blog
Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide. - JMHO.. 1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments. - ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS... see page 38 to 39 figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund. • There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications. FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received. - http://www.rarercanc ers.org.uk/images/st ories/news/pdf/0611/ funding_cancer_drugs _final.pdf also. - http://www.guardian. co.uk/society/blog/2 011/jun/09/nhs-refor ms-live-blog Dan Soton

4:01pm Tue 8 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

MisterGrimsdale wrote:
Faith Groups FFS - Well if God didn't want them to brush with fluoride he wouldn't have sat up there on his big holy backside watching this all happen would he.
Tell you what Grimmers, why not market a pork flavoured fluoride free toothpaste just to create a little frisson of tension amongst the new best buddies?
[quote][p][bold]MisterGrimsdale[/bold] wrote: Faith Groups FFS - Well if God didn't want them to brush with fluoride he wouldn't have sat up there on his big holy backside watching this all happen would he.[/p][/quote]Tell you what Grimmers, why not market a pork flavoured fluoride free toothpaste just to create a little frisson of tension amongst the new best buddies? The Wickham Man

4:02pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Velleity says...

Excellent!

Perhaps they should be asking their imaginary friend why he puts fluoride into the water in medicinal quantities in Essex and Hartlepool if it's likely to cause a problem.
Excellent! Perhaps they should be asking their imaginary friend why he puts fluoride into the water in medicinal quantities in Essex and Hartlepool if it's likely to cause a problem. Velleity

4:08pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Dan Soton says...

Dan Soton wrote:
Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide.
-


JMHO..


1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments.

-



ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS...

see page 38 to 39

figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund.


• There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications.

FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million


Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received.


-

http://www.rarercanc

ers.org.uk/images/st

ories/news/pdf/0611/

funding_cancer_drugs

_final.pdf


also.

-

http://www.guardian.

co.uk/society/blog/2

011/jun/09/nhs-refor

ms-live-blog
Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer


-



2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East..

Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer.

-




PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL.

Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006.

The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period.

East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases.

AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX.

-

http://www.sph.nhs.u
k/sph-documents/Fina
l_Head_-_Neck_Profil
es_04May2010.pdf



-


DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS..

SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated.

The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable.

-


http://www.namastepu
blishing.co.uk/the-e
ffects-of-fluoride-o
n-the-thyroid-gland/
[quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide. - JMHO.. 1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments. - ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS... see page 38 to 39 figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund. • There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications. FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received. - http://www.rarercanc ers.org.uk/images/st ories/news/pdf/0611/ funding_cancer_drugs _final.pdf also. - http://www.guardian. co.uk/society/blog/2 011/jun/09/nhs-refor ms-live-blog[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer - 2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East.. Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer. - PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL. Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006. The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period. East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases. AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX. - http://www.sph.nhs.u k/sph-documents/Fina l_Head_-_Neck_Profil es_04May2010.pdf - DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS.. SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated. The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable. - http://www.namastepu blishing.co.uk/the-e ffects-of-fluoride-o n-the-thyroid-gland/ Dan Soton

4:18pm Tue 8 Jan 13

SotonGreen says...

For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff.

What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?
For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff. What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ? SotonGreen

4:25pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Outside of the Box says...

I bet it will all smiles from the happy clappies
I bet it will all smiles from the happy clappies Outside of the Box

4:29pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

To misquote (I think) Richard Dawkins: The only thing that unites people of different faiths is their certainty that all faiths but their own are wrong. I simply take it one stage further and dismiss them all.
To misquote (I think) Richard Dawkins: The only thing that unites people of different faiths is their certainty that all faiths but their own are wrong. I simply take it one stage further and dismiss them all. Stephen J

4:42pm Tue 8 Jan 13

beiroot says...

All this has given me a headache.Can I have Paracetamol in mine please?
All this has given me a headache.Can I have Paracetamol in mine please? beiroot

4:46pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Ted Rogers says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
I love this moronic notion that all "faiths" can somehow come together and that "faith" is something that unites them. It doesn't. Wars are fought and millions die because different "faiths" hate each other and not a day goes by without "faith" causing death and misery somewhere. The only people any "faith" should consider taming upwith is atheists who regard them all with equally amused and richly justified contempt. However I can see some commonality between having "faith" and fluoride hysteria - both require a complete dumb incomprehension about science nature and proportionality.
'Like'
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: I love this moronic notion that all "faiths" can somehow come together and that "faith" is something that unites them. It doesn't. Wars are fought and millions die because different "faiths" hate each other and not a day goes by without "faith" causing death and misery somewhere. The only people any "faith" should consider taming upwith is atheists who regard them all with equally amused and richly justified contempt. However I can see some commonality between having "faith" and fluoride hysteria - both require a complete dumb incomprehension about science nature and proportionality.[/p][/quote]'Like' Ted Rogers

5:01pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Subject48 says...

Don’t bother Dan. These people don’t care about the risks or other view points.

They are brain dead and think every anti-government-poli
cy viewpoint, amounts to a crazy conspiracy theory.

No one seems to realize that if there is any shred of doubt about this being harmless, even a shred, it should not be introduced into something as essential as our water supply.

For those that want fluoride in the water, government should sell sashes’ or something you can add to every glass of water you drink don’t make me drink it if I don’t want to risk cancer due to contradicting evidence.

The main argument outlined by the echo is for children under 5. Don’t you loose your teeth at 6-7 and grow new ones?? (cant remember how this works)
Don’t bother Dan. These people don’t care about the risks or other view points. They are brain dead and think every anti-government-poli cy viewpoint, amounts to a crazy conspiracy theory. No one seems to realize that if there is any shred of doubt about this being harmless, even a shred, it should not be introduced into something as essential as our water supply. For those that want fluoride in the water, government should sell sashes’ or something you can add to every glass of water you drink don’t make me drink it if I don’t want to risk cancer due to contradicting evidence. The main argument outlined by the echo is for children under 5. Don’t you loose your teeth at 6-7 and grow new ones?? (cant remember how this works) Subject48

5:40pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Atheism is also a belief system.
Atheism is also a belief system. Stillness

5:44pm Tue 8 Jan 13

jwillie6 says...

Only 5% of the world uses fluoridation because many large studies show fluoridation is totally ineffective in improving tooth decay and is dangerous to health (See fluoridealert.org). Only eight countries in the world actually fluoridate tap water. The citizens of these countries also have the distinction of having the highest rates of arthritis and thyroid disease, both side effects of excessive ingestion of fluoride.
Only 5% of the world uses fluoridation because many large studies show fluoridation is totally ineffective in improving tooth decay and is dangerous to health (See fluoridealert.org). Only eight countries in the world actually fluoridate tap water. The citizens of these countries also have the distinction of having the highest rates of arthritis and thyroid disease, both side effects of excessive ingestion of fluoride. jwillie6

5:50pm Tue 8 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
No it isn't. It's a scientific system. Any atheist will readily agree that when any objective evidence is presented that supports any religious conviction then it can be tested. Belief has nothing to do with it. You might argue that agnosticism is a suspension of belief (or disbelief0, but atheism? Absolutely not.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]No it isn't. It's a scientific system. Any atheist will readily agree that when any objective evidence is presented that supports any religious conviction then it can be tested. Belief has nothing to do with it. You might argue that agnosticism is a suspension of belief (or disbelief0, but atheism? Absolutely not. The Wickham Man

6:01pm Tue 8 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

The funny thing is a lot of the people on here worried about the absolutely minute possibility of a tiny impact of a trace chemical still shove saturated fats and sugars into their obese bodies at every meal and wash it down with plenty of tea, coffee and alcohol, not to mention all the other processed drinks and foodstuffs. I bet one or two even smoke. We are all healthier and longer lived than at any time in human history on these islands, yet there are some people who grow increasingly paranoid that an increasing number of slight environmental conditions have the power to harm or even kill them. I'm still waiting for the tidal wave of mobile phone cancers that technological illiterates promised us were coming. And now it's the very same people screaming about fluoride and they still use the same misinformed misguided internet techniques to justify their paranoia.
The funny thing is a lot of the people on here worried about the absolutely minute possibility of a tiny impact of a trace chemical still shove saturated fats and sugars into their obese bodies at every meal and wash it down with plenty of tea, coffee and alcohol, not to mention all the other processed drinks and foodstuffs. I bet one or two even smoke. We are all healthier and longer lived than at any time in human history on these islands, yet there are some people who grow increasingly paranoid that an increasing number of slight environmental conditions have the power to harm or even kill them. I'm still waiting for the tidal wave of mobile phone cancers that technological illiterates promised us were coming. And now it's the very same people screaming about fluoride and they still use the same misinformed misguided internet techniques to justify their paranoia. The Wickham Man

6:18pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Family Man says...

I understand the Taliban, the National Rifle Association, Argentina, the Baader-Meinhof gang, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Australian Wallabies rugby team, several penguins on the Galápagos Islands, the Red Army and, belatedly, some dodos from Mauritius have also come out against the fluoridation of Southampton's water...oh, and the Monster Raving Looney Party will be putting it down as a major policy statement.

Frankly I have never heard such a load of old cods wallop and bandwagon hijacking! Can't wait to read the next episode which has to be seen to be believed!!!
I understand the Taliban, the National Rifle Association, Argentina, the Baader-Meinhof gang, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Australian Wallabies rugby team, several penguins on the Galápagos Islands, the Red Army and, belatedly, some dodos from Mauritius have also come out against the fluoridation of Southampton's water...oh, and the Monster Raving Looney Party will be putting it down as a major policy statement. Frankly I have never heard such a load of old cods wallop and bandwagon hijacking! Can't wait to read the next episode which has to be seen to be believed!!! Family Man

6:23pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Kamawoop says...

Maybe arguments either way, don't really care. What I want to know is can anyone give any reason why this is an issue of faith?

Maybe the scientoligist nutters and the luddites gospel choir, but for anyone else...?
Maybe arguments either way, don't really care. What I want to know is can anyone give any reason why this is an issue of faith? Maybe the scientoligist nutters and the luddites gospel choir, but for anyone else...? Kamawoop

6:28pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
No it isn't. It's a scientific system. Any atheist will readily agree that when any objective evidence is presented that supports any religious conviction then it can be tested. Belief has nothing to do with it. You might argue that agnosticism is a suspension of belief (or disbelief0, but atheism? Absolutely not.
When you "prove" to me that there is no divine being or cosmic consciousness I'll agree with you but as you cant I'll carry on calling it a belief.
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]No it isn't. It's a scientific system. Any atheist will readily agree that when any objective evidence is presented that supports any religious conviction then it can be tested. Belief has nothing to do with it. You might argue that agnosticism is a suspension of belief (or disbelief0, but atheism? Absolutely not.[/p][/quote]When you "prove" to me that there is no divine being or cosmic consciousness I'll agree with you but as you cant I'll carry on calling it a belief. Stillness

6:29pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god. Stephen J

6:33pm Tue 8 Jan 13

justiceforusall says...

Yes, it is justified that fluoride does prevent tooth decay, but ONLY when used directly on the teeth (such as in toothpastes), twice a day.

However, fluorine - also referred to as fluoride - is a reactive poison, and if used on the teeth more than twice in one day, can reverse teeth's structure, leading to dental decay.

When fluoride is taken internally, it has been known to lead to osteoporosis, kidney damage, and problems with the nerves and muscles, including bone cancer. If these type of ailments arise, it will not be put down to the fluorine in the water supply, it will be seen as something which needs to be treated - but should we not treat the cause first, rather than dealing with the symptoms later?

Also, it has been reiterated on so many occasions that children in the most deprived areas of Southampton will be helped if fluoride is placed in the supply. From the 'Indices of Multiple Deprivation' Report, Southampton has only identified 5 small areas of deprivation - so we should ask: who in actual fact will be benefiting?
Yes, it is justified that fluoride does prevent tooth decay, but ONLY when used directly on the teeth (such as in toothpastes), twice a day. However, fluorine - also referred to as fluoride - is a reactive poison, and if used on the teeth more than twice in one day, can reverse teeth's structure, leading to dental decay. When fluoride is taken internally, it has been known to lead to osteoporosis, kidney damage, and problems with the nerves and muscles, including bone cancer. If these type of ailments arise, it will not be put down to the fluorine in the water supply, it will be seen as something which needs to be treated - but should we not treat the cause first, rather than dealing with the symptoms later? Also, it has been reiterated on so many occasions that children in the most deprived areas of Southampton will be helped if fluoride is placed in the supply. From the 'Indices of Multiple Deprivation' Report, Southampton has only identified 5 small areas of deprivation - so we should ask: who in actual fact will be benefiting? justiceforusall

6:35pm Tue 8 Jan 13

VictorMeldrew says...

SotonGreen wrote:
For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff.

What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?
Water is a gift from God. We should use it, not abuse it. Without it there would be no life and no religion.
[quote][p][bold]SotonGreen[/bold] wrote: For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff. What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?[/p][/quote]Water is a gift from God. We should use it, not abuse it. Without it there would be no life and no religion. VictorMeldrew

6:38pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Mr Price says...

I don't want Fluoride in my tap water...I want parents to be good parents teaching kids to clean their teeth after breakfast before school then before they go to bed Not that difficult is it ?
I don't want Fluoride in my tap water...I want parents to be good parents teaching kids to clean their teeth after breakfast before school then before they go to bed Not that difficult is it ? Mr Price

7:03pm Tue 8 Jan 13

freefinker says...

VictorMeldrew wrote:
SotonGreen wrote:
For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff.

What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?
Water is a gift from God. We should use it, not abuse it. Without it there would be no life and no religion.
.. er?? - and who is god the gift from?
[quote][p][bold]VictorMeldrew[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SotonGreen[/bold] wrote: For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff. What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?[/p][/quote]Water is a gift from God. We should use it, not abuse it. Without it there would be no life and no religion.[/p][/quote].. er?? - and who is god the gift from? freefinker

7:09pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't. Stillness

7:13pm Tue 8 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
No it isn't. It's a scientific system. Any atheist will readily agree that when any objective evidence is presented that supports any religious conviction then it can be tested. Belief has nothing to do with it. You might argue that agnosticism is a suspension of belief (or disbelief0, but atheism? Absolutely not.
When you "prove" to me that there is no divine being or cosmic consciousness I'll agree with you but as you cant I'll carry on calling it a belief.
You can't prove any negative - I thought you would known that Stillness because it is quite a fundamental principle of logic, but it is irrelevant in any case. If you choose to hold an irrational belief with no evidential basis it is not down to me or anyone else to disprove it. You go ahead and prove the rest of us wrong. As an atheist I am more than happy to see your evidence.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]No it isn't. It's a scientific system. Any atheist will readily agree that when any objective evidence is presented that supports any religious conviction then it can be tested. Belief has nothing to do with it. You might argue that agnosticism is a suspension of belief (or disbelief0, but atheism? Absolutely not.[/p][/quote]When you "prove" to me that there is no divine being or cosmic consciousness I'll agree with you but as you cant I'll carry on calling it a belief.[/p][/quote]You can't prove any negative - I thought you would known that Stillness because it is quite a fundamental principle of logic, but it is irrelevant in any case. If you choose to hold an irrational belief with no evidential basis it is not down to me or anyone else to disprove it. You go ahead and prove the rest of us wrong. As an atheist I am more than happy to see your evidence. The Wickham Man

7:18pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Brusher Mills says...

I bet the people who need the stuff won't drink the water anyway.
I bet the people who need the stuff won't drink the water anyway. Brusher Mills

7:19pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
No it isn't. It's a scientific system. Any atheist will readily agree that when any objective evidence is presented that supports any religious conviction then it can be tested. Belief has nothing to do with it. You might argue that agnosticism is a suspension of belief (or disbelief0, but atheism? Absolutely not.
When you "prove" to me that there is no divine being or cosmic consciousness I'll agree with you but as you cant I'll carry on calling it a belief.
You can't prove any negative - I thought you would known that Stillness because it is quite a fundamental principle of logic, but it is irrelevant in any case. If you choose to hold an irrational belief with no evidential basis it is not down to me or anyone else to disprove it. You go ahead and prove the rest of us wrong. As an atheist I am more than happy to see your evidence.
I believe one thing and you believe another. They are both beliefs. You choose to believe that your belief is the only "true" and correct one. I think you fundamentalists are the biggest risk on the planet. Even worse than fluoridation.
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]No it isn't. It's a scientific system. Any atheist will readily agree that when any objective evidence is presented that supports any religious conviction then it can be tested. Belief has nothing to do with it. You might argue that agnosticism is a suspension of belief (or disbelief0, but atheism? Absolutely not.[/p][/quote]When you "prove" to me that there is no divine being or cosmic consciousness I'll agree with you but as you cant I'll carry on calling it a belief.[/p][/quote]You can't prove any negative - I thought you would known that Stillness because it is quite a fundamental principle of logic, but it is irrelevant in any case. If you choose to hold an irrational belief with no evidential basis it is not down to me or anyone else to disprove it. You go ahead and prove the rest of us wrong. As an atheist I am more than happy to see your evidence.[/p][/quote]I believe one thing and you believe another. They are both beliefs. You choose to believe that your belief is the only "true" and correct one. I think you fundamentalists are the biggest risk on the planet. Even worse than fluoridation. Stillness

7:22pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheists make no definite claims about god. The burden of proof is on those who do.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheists make no definite claims about god. The burden of proof is on those who do. Stephen J

7:25pm Tue 8 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it. The Wickham Man

7:31pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Linesman says...

Subject48 wrote:
Don’t bother Dan. These people don’t care about the risks or other view points.

They are brain dead and think every anti-government-poli

cy viewpoint, amounts to a crazy conspiracy theory.

No one seems to realize that if there is any shred of doubt about this being harmless, even a shred, it should not be introduced into something as essential as our water supply.

For those that want fluoride in the water, government should sell sashes’ or something you can add to every glass of water you drink don’t make me drink it if I don’t want to risk cancer due to contradicting evidence.

The main argument outlined by the echo is for children under 5. Don’t you loose your teeth at 6-7 and grow new ones?? (cant remember how this works)
Like the ones who thought the MMR vaccine damaged their children?

Instead of believing the Government research and advice, they preferred to believe a Doctor, who was proved wrong, and has since been struck off.

I think that I prefer to believe government scientists before I believe some of the people on here who appear to believe any nutter who has expressed a contrary opinion on the internet.

For more than half a century the Midlands water has been fluoridated, with none to the ill effects that some anti-flouride protesters on here have claimed that it produces.
[quote][p][bold]Subject48[/bold] wrote: Don’t bother Dan. These people don’t care about the risks or other view points. They are brain dead and think every anti-government-poli cy viewpoint, amounts to a crazy conspiracy theory. No one seems to realize that if there is any shred of doubt about this being harmless, even a shred, it should not be introduced into something as essential as our water supply. For those that want fluoride in the water, government should sell sashes’ or something you can add to every glass of water you drink don’t make me drink it if I don’t want to risk cancer due to contradicting evidence. The main argument outlined by the echo is for children under 5. Don’t you loose your teeth at 6-7 and grow new ones?? (cant remember how this works)[/p][/quote]Like the ones who thought the MMR vaccine damaged their children? Instead of believing the Government research and advice, they preferred to believe a Doctor, who was proved wrong, and has since been struck off. I think that I prefer to believe government scientists before I believe some of the people on here who appear to believe any nutter who has expressed a contrary opinion on the internet. For more than half a century the Midlands water has been fluoridated, with none to the ill effects that some anti-flouride protesters on here have claimed that it produces. Linesman

7:35pm Tue 8 Jan 13

J.P.M says...

Seemingly Fluoride is better than Flouride.
Seemingly Fluoride is better than Flouride. J.P.M

7:51pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be. Stillness

8:29pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god? Stephen J

8:30pm Tue 8 Jan 13

TankGirl88 says...

A have a friend who's daughter is allergic to fluoride. i am totally against this as i am sure there are other families with this problem. it will fix one problem only to create another.
A have a friend who's daughter is allergic to fluoride. i am totally against this as i am sure there are other families with this problem. it will fix one problem only to create another. TankGirl88

8:39pm Tue 8 Jan 13

bazzeroz says...

The problem is that the more people that say 'no' to fluoride the more chance there is that it will happen. We should all have said 'yes' and then we wouldn't get it!
The problem is that the more people that say 'no' to fluoride the more chance there is that it will happen. We should all have said 'yes' and then we wouldn't get it! bazzeroz

8:39pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking. Stillness

8:51pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you. Stephen J

9:01pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth? Stillness

9:04pm Tue 8 Jan 13

On the inside says...

Stillness is technically correct. At first blush atheism is a belief there is no god where an agnostic rejects belief and says 'Prove it'. HOWEVER, words change over time (look at gay) and common usage now equates athism as a rejection of any god in the absence of proof. A bit of a distraction really as neither would allow for the anti science ranting from the anti flouride lobby whilst faith has always had a problem with science.
Stillness is technically correct. At first blush atheism is a belief there is no god where an agnostic rejects belief and says 'Prove it'. HOWEVER, words change over time (look at gay) and common usage now equates athism as a rejection of any god in the absence of proof. A bit of a distraction really as neither would allow for the anti science ranting from the anti flouride lobby whilst faith has always had a problem with science. On the inside

9:04pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth? Stillness

9:11pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

On the inside wrote:
Stillness is technically correct. At first blush atheism is a belief there is no god where an agnostic rejects belief and says 'Prove it'. HOWEVER, words change over time (look at gay) and common usage now equates athism as a rejection of any god in the absence of proof. A bit of a distraction really as neither would allow for the anti science ranting from the anti flouride lobby whilst faith has always had a problem with science.
Don't you think that the two (science and faith) are finding more and more common ground? I think it was Einstein who said something like "matter and thought are the same thing".
[quote][p][bold]On the inside[/bold] wrote: Stillness is technically correct. At first blush atheism is a belief there is no god where an agnostic rejects belief and says 'Prove it'. HOWEVER, words change over time (look at gay) and common usage now equates athism as a rejection of any god in the absence of proof. A bit of a distraction really as neither would allow for the anti science ranting from the anti flouride lobby whilst faith has always had a problem with science.[/p][/quote]Don't you think that the two (science and faith) are finding more and more common ground? I think it was Einstein who said something like "matter and thought are the same thing". Stillness

9:18pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth. Stephen J

9:23pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

On the inside wrote:
Stillness is technically correct. At first blush atheism is a belief there is no god where an agnostic rejects belief and says 'Prove it'. HOWEVER, words change over time (look at gay) and common usage now equates athism as a rejection of any god in the absence of proof. A bit of a distraction really as neither would allow for the anti science ranting from the anti flouride lobby whilst faith has always had a problem with science.
Agnosticism is about knowledge; atheism is about belief. So it's perfectly possible to be an agnostic and a theist!
[quote][p][bold]On the inside[/bold] wrote: Stillness is technically correct. At first blush atheism is a belief there is no god where an agnostic rejects belief and says 'Prove it'. HOWEVER, words change over time (look at gay) and common usage now equates athism as a rejection of any god in the absence of proof. A bit of a distraction really as neither would allow for the anti science ranting from the anti flouride lobby whilst faith has always had a problem with science.[/p][/quote]Agnosticism is about knowledge; atheism is about belief. So it's perfectly possible to be an agnostic and a theist! Stephen J

9:26pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true? Stillness

9:46pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on... Stephen J

9:51pm Tue 8 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
Oh come on Stillness - you are always on here pontificating about this and that - is your knowledge base that limited? atoms and nuclei are held together by the strong nuclear force - that is a very basic part of the standard model - and just because you can't see it or touch it doesn't invalidate it, and there is plenty of proof (yes, proof) of its existence Don't assume that in the scale of sizes from quantum to stellar there is some rule that says that only things humans can see are actually there. I repeat true atheism (as opposed to religious antipathy) is not a belief it is simply a scientific and evidential approach. Inside and Stephen are wrong on this point. There is no "faith" or "belief" in any of it. A true atheist simply wants the believer to show the evidence behind the belief. That's all you have to do. It's not hard.
FInal logic test for you Stillness. You believe in the christian God, yes? (Don;t be contrary now) What made you choose that paticular creator and not (say) the Hindu gods? Why did you just happen to pick the local God and not one of the hundreds of other creators?
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]Oh come on Stillness - you are always on here pontificating about this and that - is your knowledge base that limited? atoms and nuclei are held together by the strong nuclear force - that is a very basic part of the standard model - and just because you can't see it or touch it doesn't invalidate it, and there is plenty of proof (yes, proof) of its existence Don't assume that in the scale of sizes from quantum to stellar there is some rule that says that only things humans can see are actually there. I repeat true atheism (as opposed to religious antipathy) is not a belief it is simply a scientific and evidential approach. Inside and Stephen are wrong on this point. There is no "faith" or "belief" in any of it. A true atheist simply wants the believer to show the evidence behind the belief. That's all you have to do. It's not hard. FInal logic test for you Stillness. You believe in the christian God, yes? (Don;t be contrary now) What made you choose that paticular creator and not (say) the Hindu gods? Why did you just happen to pick the local God and not one of the hundreds of other creators? The Wickham Man

9:52pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...[/p][/quote]It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true? Stillness

10:04pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
Oh come on Stillness - you are always on here pontificating about this and that - is your knowledge base that limited? atoms and nuclei are held together by the strong nuclear force - that is a very basic part of the standard model - and just because you can't see it or touch it doesn't invalidate it, and there is plenty of proof (yes, proof) of its existence Don't assume that in the scale of sizes from quantum to stellar there is some rule that says that only things humans can see are actually there. I repeat true atheism (as opposed to religious antipathy) is not a belief it is simply a scientific and evidential approach. Inside and Stephen are wrong on this point. There is no "faith" or "belief" in any of it. A true atheist simply wants the believer to show the evidence behind the belief. That's all you have to do. It's not hard.
FInal logic test for you Stillness. You believe in the christian God, yes? (Don;t be contrary now) What made you choose that paticular creator and not (say) the Hindu gods? Why did you just happen to pick the local God and not one of the hundreds of other creators?
So Mr font of all knowledge, what is "the strong nuclear force, and where did it come from? Details please. As to your assumption of my belief in a Christian God you could not be further from the truth. After being dragged up in the Christian faith, in fact I was southy's head choir boy I decided that I could not go along with a faith that that was dualistic. I do not follow any particular faith and I don't decry any. As Rumi is quoted as saying "There are many lamps but the light is all the same". You just need the desire to see through all the BS that has been built up around it to suit political needs.
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]Oh come on Stillness - you are always on here pontificating about this and that - is your knowledge base that limited? atoms and nuclei are held together by the strong nuclear force - that is a very basic part of the standard model - and just because you can't see it or touch it doesn't invalidate it, and there is plenty of proof (yes, proof) of its existence Don't assume that in the scale of sizes from quantum to stellar there is some rule that says that only things humans can see are actually there. I repeat true atheism (as opposed to religious antipathy) is not a belief it is simply a scientific and evidential approach. Inside and Stephen are wrong on this point. There is no "faith" or "belief" in any of it. A true atheist simply wants the believer to show the evidence behind the belief. That's all you have to do. It's not hard. FInal logic test for you Stillness. You believe in the christian God, yes? (Don;t be contrary now) What made you choose that paticular creator and not (say) the Hindu gods? Why did you just happen to pick the local God and not one of the hundreds of other creators?[/p][/quote]So Mr font of all knowledge, what is "the strong nuclear force, and where did it come from? Details please. As to your assumption of my belief in a Christian God you could not be further from the truth. After being dragged up in the Christian faith, in fact I was southy's head choir boy I decided that I could not go along with a faith that that was dualistic. I do not follow any particular faith and I don't decry any. As Rumi is quoted as saying "There are many lamps but the light is all the same". You just need the desire to see through all the BS that has been built up around it to suit political needs. Stillness

10:11pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
Oh come on Stillness - you are always on here pontificating about this and that - is your knowledge base that limited? atoms and nuclei are held together by the strong nuclear force - that is a very basic part of the standard model - and just because you can't see it or touch it doesn't invalidate it, and there is plenty of proof (yes, proof) of its existence Don't assume that in the scale of sizes from quantum to stellar there is some rule that says that only things humans can see are actually there. I repeat true atheism (as opposed to religious antipathy) is not a belief it is simply a scientific and evidential approach. Inside and Stephen are wrong on this point. There is no "faith" or "belief" in any of it. A true atheist simply wants the believer to show the evidence behind the belief. That's all you have to do. It's not hard.
FInal logic test for you Stillness. You believe in the christian God, yes? (Don;t be contrary now) What made you choose that paticular creator and not (say) the Hindu gods? Why did you just happen to pick the local God and not one of the hundreds of other creators?
You took steady aim. You gave it your best shot. You shot yourself in the foot. Just a surprise that you missed your mouth considering the size of it ;-)
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]Oh come on Stillness - you are always on here pontificating about this and that - is your knowledge base that limited? atoms and nuclei are held together by the strong nuclear force - that is a very basic part of the standard model - and just because you can't see it or touch it doesn't invalidate it, and there is plenty of proof (yes, proof) of its existence Don't assume that in the scale of sizes from quantum to stellar there is some rule that says that only things humans can see are actually there. I repeat true atheism (as opposed to religious antipathy) is not a belief it is simply a scientific and evidential approach. Inside and Stephen are wrong on this point. There is no "faith" or "belief" in any of it. A true atheist simply wants the believer to show the evidence behind the belief. That's all you have to do. It's not hard. FInal logic test for you Stillness. You believe in the christian God, yes? (Don;t be contrary now) What made you choose that paticular creator and not (say) the Hindu gods? Why did you just happen to pick the local God and not one of the hundreds of other creators?[/p][/quote]You took steady aim. You gave it your best shot. You shot yourself in the foot. Just a surprise that you missed your mouth considering the size of it ;-) Stillness

10:20pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?
Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...[/p][/quote]It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?[/p][/quote]Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear... Stephen J

10:30pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?
Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...
You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you.
http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d
inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...[/p][/quote]It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?[/p][/quote]Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...[/p][/quote]You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you. http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start. Stillness

10:38pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Inform Al says...

Yorkyboy22 wrote:
In which religious texts is flouridation prohibited? Is it a sin to use toothpaste on the Sabbath?
Most religions would probably consider it a sin to put poison in drinking water. I myself shall be attending the event to find out more before making cretinous comments on this site.
[quote][p][bold]Yorkyboy22[/bold] wrote: In which religious texts is flouridation prohibited? Is it a sin to use toothpaste on the Sabbath?[/p][/quote]Most religions would probably consider it a sin to put poison in drinking water. I myself shall be attending the event to find out more before making cretinous comments on this site. Inform Al

10:42pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Inform Al says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
I love this moronic notion that all "faiths" can somehow come together and that "faith" is something that unites them. It doesn't. Wars are fought and millions die because different "faiths" hate each other and not a day goes by without "faith" causing death and misery somewhere. The only people any "faith" should consider taming upwith is atheists who regard them all with equally amused and richly justified contempt.
However I can see some commonality between having "faith" and fluoride hysteria - both require a complete dumb incomprehension about science nature and proportionality.
To the same extent as the cretins who support the poisoning of our water supplies despite the majority saying no. Our form of democracy would appeal to Iran's leaders.
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: I love this moronic notion that all "faiths" can somehow come together and that "faith" is something that unites them. It doesn't. Wars are fought and millions die because different "faiths" hate each other and not a day goes by without "faith" causing death and misery somewhere. The only people any "faith" should consider taming upwith is atheists who regard them all with equally amused and richly justified contempt. However I can see some commonality between having "faith" and fluoride hysteria - both require a complete dumb incomprehension about science nature and proportionality.[/p][/quote]To the same extent as the cretins who support the poisoning of our water supplies despite the majority saying no. Our form of democracy would appeal to Iran's leaders. Inform Al

10:45pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Inform Al wrote:
Yorkyboy22 wrote:
In which religious texts is flouridation prohibited? Is it a sin to use toothpaste on the Sabbath?
Most religions would probably consider it a sin to put poison in drinking water. I myself shall be attending the event to find out more before making cretinous comments on this site.
If you expect to find the truth at a meeting between two interested parties you have just joined the ranks of cretinous commentators ;-)
[quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Yorkyboy22[/bold] wrote: In which religious texts is flouridation prohibited? Is it a sin to use toothpaste on the Sabbath?[/p][/quote]Most religions would probably consider it a sin to put poison in drinking water. I myself shall be attending the event to find out more before making cretinous comments on this site.[/p][/quote]If you expect to find the truth at a meeting between two interested parties you have just joined the ranks of cretinous commentators ;-) Stillness

10:45pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?
Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...
You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you.
http://en.wikipedia.

org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d

inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.
Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...[/p][/quote]It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?[/p][/quote]Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...[/p][/quote]You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you. http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.[/p][/quote]Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance? Stephen J

10:55pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?
Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...
You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you.
http://en.wikipedia.


org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d


inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.
Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?
Your posts and your inability to change the record go to prove that intelligence and wisdom are not codependent. Intelligence is taken to be what goes on in the mind. That being the case can you use your mind to stop your body from digesting your food? There is more to intelligence than the human mind and unfortunately the human mind can't define it. Hence beliefs.
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...[/p][/quote]It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?[/p][/quote]Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...[/p][/quote]You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you. http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.[/p][/quote]Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?[/p][/quote]Your posts and your inability to change the record go to prove that intelligence and wisdom are not codependent. Intelligence is taken to be what goes on in the mind. That being the case can you use your mind to stop your body from digesting your food? There is more to intelligence than the human mind and unfortunately the human mind can't define it. Hence beliefs. Stillness

11:11pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Ginger_cyclist says...

Linesman wrote:
Subject48 wrote:
Don’t bother Dan. These people don’t care about the risks or other view points.

They are brain dead and think every anti-government-poli


cy viewpoint, amounts to a crazy conspiracy theory.

No one seems to realize that if there is any shred of doubt about this being harmless, even a shred, it should not be introduced into something as essential as our water supply.

For those that want fluoride in the water, government should sell sashes’ or something you can add to every glass of water you drink don’t make me drink it if I don’t want to risk cancer due to contradicting evidence.

The main argument outlined by the echo is for children under 5. Don’t you loose your teeth at 6-7 and grow new ones?? (cant remember how this works)
Like the ones who thought the MMR vaccine damaged their children?

Instead of believing the Government research and advice, they preferred to believe a Doctor, who was proved wrong, and has since been struck off.

I think that I prefer to believe government scientists before I believe some of the people on here who appear to believe any nutter who has expressed a contrary opinion on the internet.

For more than half a century the Midlands water has been fluoridated, with none to the ill effects that some anti-flouride protesters on here have claimed that it produces.
Why would you believe someone who says what they've been PAID to say and threatened to NOT say the opposite? Also check your facts again, fluoride has a well known leaching effect on metals, in particular, heavy metals such as lead and copper, both of which collect in the body and cause damage, fluoride in itself, also collects in bones, making then become brittle, particularly in small children as their kidneys are only able to remove up to 20% of the fluoride they ingest and they are still growing, therefore fluoride will be able to replace calcium more readily.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Subject48[/bold] wrote: Don’t bother Dan. These people don’t care about the risks or other view points. They are brain dead and think every anti-government-poli cy viewpoint, amounts to a crazy conspiracy theory. No one seems to realize that if there is any shred of doubt about this being harmless, even a shred, it should not be introduced into something as essential as our water supply. For those that want fluoride in the water, government should sell sashes’ or something you can add to every glass of water you drink don’t make me drink it if I don’t want to risk cancer due to contradicting evidence. The main argument outlined by the echo is for children under 5. Don’t you loose your teeth at 6-7 and grow new ones?? (cant remember how this works)[/p][/quote]Like the ones who thought the MMR vaccine damaged their children? Instead of believing the Government research and advice, they preferred to believe a Doctor, who was proved wrong, and has since been struck off. I think that I prefer to believe government scientists before I believe some of the people on here who appear to believe any nutter who has expressed a contrary opinion on the internet. For more than half a century the Midlands water has been fluoridated, with none to the ill effects that some anti-flouride protesters on here have claimed that it produces.[/p][/quote]Why would you believe someone who says what they've been PAID to say and threatened to NOT say the opposite? Also check your facts again, fluoride has a well known leaching effect on metals, in particular, heavy metals such as lead and copper, both of which collect in the body and cause damage, fluoride in itself, also collects in bones, making then become brittle, particularly in small children as their kidneys are only able to remove up to 20% of the fluoride they ingest and they are still growing, therefore fluoride will be able to replace calcium more readily. Ginger_cyclist

11:20pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Ginger_cyclist says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?
Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...
You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you.
http://en.wikipedia.


org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d


inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.
Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?
In quantum physics it is possible for things (protons) to pop in and out of existence without them coming from anything, also in quantum physics, things can be in 2 places at once, just because it defies the laws of physics on any larger scale, doesn't mean it defies the laws of QUANTUM physics.
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...[/p][/quote]It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?[/p][/quote]Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...[/p][/quote]You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you. http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.[/p][/quote]Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?[/p][/quote]In quantum physics it is possible for things (protons) to pop in and out of existence without them coming from anything, also in quantum physics, things can be in 2 places at once, just because it defies the laws of physics on any larger scale, doesn't mean it defies the laws of QUANTUM physics. Ginger_cyclist

11:33pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?
Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...
You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you.
http://en.wikipedia.



org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d



inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.
Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?
Your posts and your inability to change the record go to prove that intelligence and wisdom are not codependent. Intelligence is taken to be what goes on in the mind. That being the case can you use your mind to stop your body from digesting your food? There is more to intelligence than the human mind and unfortunately the human mind can't define it. Hence beliefs.
Does it matter to you that what you believe is true?
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...[/p][/quote]It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?[/p][/quote]Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...[/p][/quote]You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you. http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.[/p][/quote]Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?[/p][/quote]Your posts and your inability to change the record go to prove that intelligence and wisdom are not codependent. Intelligence is taken to be what goes on in the mind. That being the case can you use your mind to stop your body from digesting your food? There is more to intelligence than the human mind and unfortunately the human mind can't define it. Hence beliefs.[/p][/quote]Does it matter to you that what you believe is true? Stephen J

11:37pm Tue 8 Jan 13

stay local says...

VictorMeldrew wrote:
SotonGreen wrote:
For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff.

What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?
Water is a gift from God. We should use it, not abuse it. Without it there would be no life and no religion.
Are Uranium, Mercury and smallpox gifts from god also, and how should we use them?
Fluoride is also a natural chemical in some water supplies so it must also be a gift from god.

Should we therefore use it?
[quote][p][bold]VictorMeldrew[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SotonGreen[/bold] wrote: For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff. What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?[/p][/quote]Water is a gift from God. We should use it, not abuse it. Without it there would be no life and no religion.[/p][/quote]Are Uranium, Mercury and smallpox gifts from god also, and how should we use them? Fluoride is also a natural chemical in some water supplies so it must also be a gift from god. Should we therefore use it? stay local

11:44pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?
Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...
You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you.
http://en.wikipedia.




org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d




inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.
Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?
Your posts and your inability to change the record go to prove that intelligence and wisdom are not codependent. Intelligence is taken to be what goes on in the mind. That being the case can you use your mind to stop your body from digesting your food? There is more to intelligence than the human mind and unfortunately the human mind can't define it. Hence beliefs.
Does it matter to you that what you believe is true?
No it doesn't. I may very well be proven wrong next week, month or year. People who hold their truths to be unquestionable are the ones that suffer the most when they finally have to admit that they were wrong all along. They feel that a part of what made them who they are has died. A spiritual concept that may interest you is "not identifying with forms", even thought forms. All forms are temporary. Even the sun will die, but that's okay ;-)
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...[/p][/quote]It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?[/p][/quote]Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...[/p][/quote]You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you. http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.[/p][/quote]Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?[/p][/quote]Your posts and your inability to change the record go to prove that intelligence and wisdom are not codependent. Intelligence is taken to be what goes on in the mind. That being the case can you use your mind to stop your body from digesting your food? There is more to intelligence than the human mind and unfortunately the human mind can't define it. Hence beliefs.[/p][/quote]Does it matter to you that what you believe is true?[/p][/quote]No it doesn't. I may very well be proven wrong next week, month or year. People who hold their truths to be unquestionable are the ones that suffer the most when they finally have to admit that they were wrong all along. They feel that a part of what made them who they are has died. A spiritual concept that may interest you is "not identifying with forms", even thought forms. All forms are temporary. Even the sun will die, but that's okay ;-) Stillness

11:50pm Tue 8 Jan 13

Stillness says...

stay local wrote:
VictorMeldrew wrote:
SotonGreen wrote:
For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff.

What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?
Water is a gift from God. We should use it, not abuse it. Without it there would be no life and no religion.
Are Uranium, Mercury and smallpox gifts from god also, and how should we use them?
Fluoride is also a natural chemical in some water supplies so it must also be a gift from god.

Should we therefore use it?
Those that want to use should be able to use it, and equally those that do not should not have to. Try not to over complicate things, it never helps. How would you feel if they decided to put bromide in the water to keep the population down?
[quote][p][bold]stay local[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]VictorMeldrew[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SotonGreen[/bold] wrote: For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff. What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?[/p][/quote]Water is a gift from God. We should use it, not abuse it. Without it there would be no life and no religion.[/p][/quote]Are Uranium, Mercury and smallpox gifts from god also, and how should we use them? Fluoride is also a natural chemical in some water supplies so it must also be a gift from god. Should we therefore use it?[/p][/quote]Those that want to use should be able to use it, and equally those that do not should not have to. Try not to over complicate things, it never helps. How would you feel if they decided to put bromide in the water to keep the population down? Stillness

12:19am Wed 9 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?
Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...
You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you.
http://en.wikipedia.





org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d





inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.
Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?
Your posts and your inability to change the record go to prove that intelligence and wisdom are not codependent. Intelligence is taken to be what goes on in the mind. That being the case can you use your mind to stop your body from digesting your food? There is more to intelligence than the human mind and unfortunately the human mind can't define it. Hence beliefs.
Does it matter to you that what you believe is true?
No it doesn't. I may very well be proven wrong next week, month or year. People who hold their truths to be unquestionable are the ones that suffer the most when they finally have to admit that they were wrong all along. They feel that a part of what made them who they are has died. A spiritual concept that may interest you is "not identifying with forms", even thought forms. All forms are temporary. Even the sun will die, but that's okay ;-)
I always question the beliefs that inform how I live my life. In that respect, I have to change them if they turn out to be wrong. In no sense do I claim to have any special insight into what is true, but we seem to need different burdens of proof. For example, you are happy to accept ideas such as life force, supernatural intelligence, and "spiritual concepts". Given that there is no evidence of the truth of any such ideas, I can't believe in them, however attractive they might be. Tell me why things such as "life force" are reasonable, and I will listen.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...[/p][/quote]It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?[/p][/quote]Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...[/p][/quote]You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you. http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.[/p][/quote]Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?[/p][/quote]Your posts and your inability to change the record go to prove that intelligence and wisdom are not codependent. Intelligence is taken to be what goes on in the mind. That being the case can you use your mind to stop your body from digesting your food? There is more to intelligence than the human mind and unfortunately the human mind can't define it. Hence beliefs.[/p][/quote]Does it matter to you that what you believe is true?[/p][/quote]No it doesn't. I may very well be proven wrong next week, month or year. People who hold their truths to be unquestionable are the ones that suffer the most when they finally have to admit that they were wrong all along. They feel that a part of what made them who they are has died. A spiritual concept that may interest you is "not identifying with forms", even thought forms. All forms are temporary. Even the sun will die, but that's okay ;-)[/p][/quote]I always question the beliefs that inform how I live my life. In that respect, I have to change them if they turn out to be wrong. In no sense do I claim to have any special insight into what is true, but we seem to need different burdens of proof. For example, you are happy to accept ideas such as life force, supernatural intelligence, and "spiritual concepts". Given that there is no evidence of the truth of any such ideas, I can't believe in them, however attractive they might be. Tell me why things such as "life force" are reasonable, and I will listen. Stephen J

12:47am Wed 9 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Atheism is also a belief system.
It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.
No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.
Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what?
I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong.
Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.
Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.
What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?
So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.
I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.
No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?
You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.
But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?
We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...
It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?
Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...
You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you.
http://en.wikipedia.






org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d






inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.
Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?
Your posts and your inability to change the record go to prove that intelligence and wisdom are not codependent. Intelligence is taken to be what goes on in the mind. That being the case can you use your mind to stop your body from digesting your food? There is more to intelligence than the human mind and unfortunately the human mind can't define it. Hence beliefs.
Does it matter to you that what you believe is true?
No it doesn't. I may very well be proven wrong next week, month or year. People who hold their truths to be unquestionable are the ones that suffer the most when they finally have to admit that they were wrong all along. They feel that a part of what made them who they are has died. A spiritual concept that may interest you is "not identifying with forms", even thought forms. All forms are temporary. Even the sun will die, but that's okay ;-)
I always question the beliefs that inform how I live my life. In that respect, I have to change them if they turn out to be wrong. In no sense do I claim to have any special insight into what is true, but we seem to need different burdens of proof. For example, you are happy to accept ideas such as life force, supernatural intelligence, and "spiritual concepts". Given that there is no evidence of the truth of any such ideas, I can't believe in them, however attractive they might be. Tell me why things such as "life force" are reasonable, and I will listen.
Why should I try and explain life force to you when all you need to do is open your eyes and look around you? Really look. Look at a chair leg and then try and work out what is the intelligence that keeps it a chair leg. You would be looking at millions of atoms vibrating at a rate that appears to be solid to you yet 99% of it is empty space. Perhaps the empty space has more importance than we give it credit for. In fact if you think about it it's essential as without empty space there would be no room for anything to exist. Nothing is what the universe is expanding in to. Many have wondered if nothingness is in fact consciousness. Good night.
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: Atheism is also a belief system.[/p][/quote]It isn't. It's simply not agreeing with the assertion that there definitely is a god.[/p][/quote]No it's not. It's an assertion that there is no god. Now show me the proof that there isn't.[/p][/quote]Atheism is a rational assessment of all evidence, which suggests that there is no need for a creator, and no evidence of a Creator. Belief does not come into it, any more that I "believe" my kettle heats up hot water all by itself using magic. (Well have you ever "proved" that your kettle isn't magic? No? What's the difference?) Even on this tiny world among billions of others in the galaxy among billions of galaxies there are hundreds of creators looking after it apparently, but you still smugly (and secretly) assume that "your" Creator is the right one - well why not Vishnu? Why not Ra? or Zeus? or the Monkey God of Timbuktu? They all have believers too, so do all these Creators sit up the sky side by side just looking after Earth? If not then what? I beleive the tooth fairy created the world. Prove me wrong. Atheism is a doctrine of logic and reason. "Belief" is for adults who are still terrified of dying and too scared to admit it.[/p][/quote]Your arrogance is truly staggering. I find it hard to believe that you think that only your view can possibly be the correct one. People on here have stated that religions cause hatred and wars, well yes they do, because they are full of pig headed people like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that they may just possibly not know it all. As for your statement that religion is for adults who are scared of death I think you may find that the majority of the adult population are more scared of life. It's just that they call it "worry". Perhaps you could explain to all of us "scared ones" what is the intelligence (or life force) that keeps our bodies functioning? Is it the brain that keeps all the atoms that make up the body together? Is it the human mind that controls digestion? Before you tell me that's all down to nature I'd like to point out that to many people the word nature is interchangeable with the word god. But then again that's probably only the people who have spent some time thinking about the subject rather than just assuming that they know all the answers. May your god be with you, whoever you may see her to be.[/p][/quote]What evidence is there for an "intelligence or life force" or that nature is god?[/p][/quote]So how do you explain atoms deciding to clump together to create you? Just asking.[/p][/quote]I don't know. But you do. That's why the burden of proof is on you.[/p][/quote]No, I don't know. But I do try and keep an open mind about it. As any honest scientist will tell you a theory can more easily be supported than disproved. No one person has the monopoly on truth and the sooner more people accept that fact the better. It's all to do with your point of view. Imagine one person stood on the coast at Dover and another on the cost at Calais, both looking a yacht on the horizon. One person can see it sailing away and the other towards. Who's truth is the truth?[/p][/quote]You made a positive assertion about an intelligence and life force, but said nothing about why you believe it, or why anyone else should. Yes, there is a monopoly on truth: the truth. It's nothing to do with point of view. Two opposing assertions cannot both be correct. And as for the yacht; it simply sails in a particular direction. That is the only truth.[/p][/quote]But not to the observers and we all believe what we observe. Would you like to try and convince a quantum physicist that two conflicting states can't both be true?[/p][/quote]We may well believe what we observe, but that doesn't make it true. There isn't your truth and my truth, there's only what's true! So, about this intelligence and life force stuff. Go on...[/p][/quote]It's fairly well accepted now days that a particle exists in more than one place at the same time until it is observed. Surely that would suggest that more than one point of view can be true?[/p][/quote]Even in quantum physics, that which is impossible cannot be true. So, intelligence and life force. I'm eager to hear...[/p][/quote]You go and check up on your quantum theory and then we can have a chat about what is really troubling you. http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d inger%27s_cat may be a good place to start.[/p][/quote]Again, even in quantum physics, the impossible does not become possible. It might stretch what we perceive to be possible, but it doesn't in any sense change what is, and what has always been true. Anyway, enough of that red herring. Intelligence and life force. Any advance?[/p][/quote]Your posts and your inability to change the record go to prove that intelligence and wisdom are not codependent. Intelligence is taken to be what goes on in the mind. That being the case can you use your mind to stop your body from digesting your food? There is more to intelligence than the human mind and unfortunately the human mind can't define it. Hence beliefs.[/p][/quote]Does it matter to you that what you believe is true?[/p][/quote]No it doesn't. I may very well be proven wrong next week, month or year. People who hold their truths to be unquestionable are the ones that suffer the most when they finally have to admit that they were wrong all along. They feel that a part of what made them who they are has died. A spiritual concept that may interest you is "not identifying with forms", even thought forms. All forms are temporary. Even the sun will die, but that's okay ;-)[/p][/quote]I always question the beliefs that inform how I live my life. In that respect, I have to change them if they turn out to be wrong. In no sense do I claim to have any special insight into what is true, but we seem to need different burdens of proof. For example, you are happy to accept ideas such as life force, supernatural intelligence, and "spiritual concepts". Given that there is no evidence of the truth of any such ideas, I can't believe in them, however attractive they might be. Tell me why things such as "life force" are reasonable, and I will listen.[/p][/quote]Why should I try and explain life force to you when all you need to do is open your eyes and look around you? Really look. Look at a chair leg and then try and work out what is the intelligence that keeps it a chair leg. You would be looking at millions of atoms vibrating at a rate that appears to be solid to you yet 99% of it is empty space. Perhaps the empty space has more importance than we give it credit for. In fact if you think about it it's essential as without empty space there would be no room for anything to exist. Nothing is what the universe is expanding in to. Many have wondered if nothingness is in fact consciousness. Good night. Stillness

1:20am Wed 9 Jan 13

Stephen J says...

So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.
So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it. Stephen J

1:40am Wed 9 Jan 13

Dan Soton says...

Subject48 wrote:
Don’t bother Dan. These people don’t care about the risks or other view points.

They are brain dead and think every anti-government-poli

cy viewpoint, amounts to a crazy conspiracy theory.

No one seems to realize that if there is any shred of doubt about this being harmless, even a shred, it should not be introduced into something as essential as our water supply.

For those that want fluoride in the water, government should sell sashes’ or something you can add to every glass of water you drink don’t make me drink it if I don’t want to risk cancer due to contradicting evidence.

The main argument outlined by the echo is for children under 5. Don’t you loose your teeth at 6-7 and grow new ones?? (cant remember how this works)
Subject says... These people don't care about the risks of Fluoridation.


-

Never a truer word.. these people never care about risks only their looks, in fact, they redefine Narcissism.
[quote][p][bold]Subject48[/bold] wrote: Don’t bother Dan. These people don’t care about the risks or other view points. They are brain dead and think every anti-government-poli cy viewpoint, amounts to a crazy conspiracy theory. No one seems to realize that if there is any shred of doubt about this being harmless, even a shred, it should not be introduced into something as essential as our water supply. For those that want fluoride in the water, government should sell sashes’ or something you can add to every glass of water you drink don’t make me drink it if I don’t want to risk cancer due to contradicting evidence. The main argument outlined by the echo is for children under 5. Don’t you loose your teeth at 6-7 and grow new ones?? (cant remember how this works)[/p][/quote]Subject says... These people don't care about the risks of Fluoridation. - Never a truer word.. these people never care about risks only their looks, in fact, they redefine Narcissism. Dan Soton

3:11am Wed 9 Jan 13

stay local says...

Stillness wrote:
stay local wrote:
VictorMeldrew wrote:
SotonGreen wrote:
For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff.

What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?
Water is a gift from God. We should use it, not abuse it. Without it there would be no life and no religion.
Are Uranium, Mercury and smallpox gifts from god also, and how should we use them?
Fluoride is also a natural chemical in some water supplies so it must also be a gift from god.

Should we therefore use it?
Those that want to use should be able to use it, and equally those that do not should not have to. Try not to over complicate things, it never helps. How would you feel if they decided to put bromide in the water to keep the population down?
I was questioning the the claim that water was a gift from god, over and above that of many other fine chemicals!
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]stay local[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]VictorMeldrew[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SotonGreen[/bold] wrote: For Christ sake sort out your outmoded views on gay marriage, contraception and women bishops then just maybe get back to us on other stuff. What the hell has fluoridation got to do with God ?[/p][/quote]Water is a gift from God. We should use it, not abuse it. Without it there would be no life and no religion.[/p][/quote]Are Uranium, Mercury and smallpox gifts from god also, and how should we use them? Fluoride is also a natural chemical in some water supplies so it must also be a gift from god. Should we therefore use it?[/p][/quote]Those that want to use should be able to use it, and equally those that do not should not have to. Try not to over complicate things, it never helps. How would you feel if they decided to put bromide in the water to keep the population down?[/p][/quote]I was questioning the the claim that water was a gift from god, over and above that of many other fine chemicals! stay local

8:10am Wed 9 Jan 13

Inform Al says...

Stillness wrote:
Inform Al wrote:
Yorkyboy22 wrote:
In which religious texts is flouridation prohibited? Is it a sin to use toothpaste on the Sabbath?
Most religions would probably consider it a sin to put poison in drinking water. I myself shall be attending the event to find out more before making cretinous comments on this site.
If you expect to find the truth at a meeting between two interested parties you have just joined the ranks of cretinous commentators ;-)
No, I have no intention of joining your ranks. I am however prepared to listen to others before forming my own impression.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Yorkyboy22[/bold] wrote: In which religious texts is flouridation prohibited? Is it a sin to use toothpaste on the Sabbath?[/p][/quote]Most religions would probably consider it a sin to put poison in drinking water. I myself shall be attending the event to find out more before making cretinous comments on this site.[/p][/quote]If you expect to find the truth at a meeting between two interested parties you have just joined the ranks of cretinous commentators ;-)[/p][/quote]No, I have no intention of joining your ranks. I am however prepared to listen to others before forming my own impression. Inform Al

8:38am Wed 9 Jan 13

Stillness says...

Stephen J wrote:
So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.
Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?
[quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.[/p][/quote]Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck? Stillness

8:49am Wed 9 Jan 13

Inform Al says...

If I were to make a chair there would be a lot of luck involved for anyone bold enough to sit on it.
If I were to make a chair there would be a lot of luck involved for anyone bold enough to sit on it. Inform Al

9:25am Wed 9 Jan 13

kingnotail says...

J.P.M wrote:
Seemingly Fluoride is better than Flouride.
'Fluoride' is the correct spelling
[quote][p][bold]J.P.M[/bold] wrote: Seemingly Fluoride is better than Flouride.[/p][/quote]'Fluoride' is the correct spelling kingnotail

9:55am Wed 9 Jan 13

freefinker says...

Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.
Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?
.. so you don't understand the chemistry of life.

.. so you invent a 'life force' or god.

.. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present.

.. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.[/p][/quote]Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?[/p][/quote].. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time. freefinker

11:45am Wed 9 Jan 13

bazzeroz says...

ECHO. STOP these multi quotes for christs sake! If someone want to quote get them to copy and paste. Multi quotes take a lot of space and drives people mad! Me for one.
ECHO. STOP these multi quotes for christs sake! If someone want to quote get them to copy and paste. Multi quotes take a lot of space and drives people mad! Me for one. bazzeroz

12:10pm Wed 9 Jan 13

Stillness says...

freefinker wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.
Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?
.. so you don't understand the chemistry of life.

.. so you invent a 'life force' or god.

.. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present.

.. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.
Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb?
I'm listening.
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.[/p][/quote]Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?[/p][/quote].. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.[/p][/quote]Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb? I'm listening. Stillness

12:27pm Wed 9 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

Stillness is only too ready to produce the "arrogance " card to be used when someone else says something beyond his/her knowledge - but it is arrogance to assume that just because Stillness doesn't know something then nobody else can know it either. Stillness has continued to compound his /her ignorance by suggest that one aspect of quantum mechanics (string theory) is all about a "point of view" citing random bits of soundbite physics to suggest some understanding of the subject. and trying to suggest that different points of view can be equally true. So you regard anyone who spends years in education learning these subjects properly is just being "arrogant" and that your "point of view" has some kind of deserved equivalence with informed knowledge? Your "point of view" is an opinion which has no standard validation, whereas String theory is about probabllity, not opinion. And if you don;t know about probability theory don't pretend you do. It's more complicated than you think. You are mixing different concepts and displaying your inability to formulate coherent structured thought. Stick to your "faith" if you are so scared of the physical world, but don't try and used it to claim that everything else is a matter of "faith" as well. Now that is real arrogance.
Stillness is only too ready to produce the "arrogance " card to be used when someone else says something beyond his/her knowledge - but it is arrogance to assume that just because Stillness doesn't know something then nobody else can know it either. Stillness has continued to compound his /her ignorance by suggest that one aspect of quantum mechanics (string theory) is all about a "point of view" citing random bits of soundbite physics to suggest some understanding of the subject. and trying to suggest that different points of view can be equally true. So you regard anyone who spends years in education learning these subjects properly is just being "arrogant" and that your "point of view" has some kind of deserved equivalence with informed knowledge? Your "point of view" is an opinion which has no standard validation, whereas String theory is about probabllity, not opinion. And if you don;t know about probability theory don't pretend you do. It's more complicated than you think. You are mixing different concepts and displaying your inability to formulate coherent structured thought. Stick to your "faith" if you are so scared of the physical world, but don't try and used it to claim that everything else is a matter of "faith" as well. Now that is real arrogance. The Wickham Man

12:30pm Wed 9 Jan 13

freefinker says...

Stillness wrote:
freefinker wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote:
So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.
Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?
.. so you don't understand the chemistry of life.

.. so you invent a 'life force' or god.

.. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present.

.. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.
Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb?
I'm listening.
.. as I said, I suggest you do some reading.

It is far too large a subject for these columns but there is a huge body of peer reviewed scientific literature and ‘popular science’ books that answers in intricate detail the very question you ask.

Knowledge trumps ignorance – and in today’s world ignorance is laziness.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.[/p][/quote]Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?[/p][/quote].. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.[/p][/quote]Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb? I'm listening.[/p][/quote].. as I said, I suggest you do some reading. It is far too large a subject for these columns but there is a huge body of peer reviewed scientific literature and ‘popular science’ books that answers in intricate detail the very question you ask. Knowledge trumps ignorance – and in today’s world ignorance is laziness. freefinker

12:32pm Wed 9 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

Stillness wrote:
freefinker wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.
Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?
.. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.
Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb? I'm listening.
You mean you really don;t know anything about DNA and cell chemistry either? You are unravelling before everyone's eyes. What do you think all these intelligent university biochemistry students say when they get to that? "Umm we don't actually know how it happens. Let's go off and paray about it and hope for the best". Of course they know FFS! - what do you think the human genome project was all about? That was over 10 years ago and most cancer research today is based on that exact understanding. It is worrying how ill informed religious believers actually are.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.[/p][/quote]Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?[/p][/quote].. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.[/p][/quote]Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb? I'm listening.[/p][/quote]You mean you really don;t know anything about DNA and cell chemistry either? You are unravelling before everyone's eyes. What do you think all these intelligent university biochemistry students say when they get to that? "Umm we don't actually know how it happens. Let's go off and paray about it and hope for the best". Of course they know FFS! - what do you think the human genome project was all about? That was over 10 years ago and most cancer research today is based on that exact understanding. It is worrying how ill informed religious believers actually are. The Wickham Man

12:49pm Wed 9 Jan 13

Stillness says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness is only too ready to produce the "arrogance " card to be used when someone else says something beyond his/her knowledge - but it is arrogance to assume that just because Stillness doesn't know something then nobody else can know it either. Stillness has continued to compound his /her ignorance by suggest that one aspect of quantum mechanics (string theory) is all about a "point of view" citing random bits of soundbite physics to suggest some understanding of the subject. and trying to suggest that different points of view can be equally true. So you regard anyone who spends years in education learning these subjects properly is just being "arrogant" and that your "point of view" has some kind of deserved equivalence with informed knowledge? Your "point of view" is an opinion which has no standard validation, whereas String theory is about probabllity, not opinion. And if you don;t know about probability theory don't pretend you do. It's more complicated than you think. You are mixing different concepts and displaying your inability to formulate coherent structured thought. Stick to your "faith" if you are so scared of the physical world, but don't try and used it to claim that everything else is a matter of "faith" as well. Now that is real arrogance.
At what point did I use the word faith? If you care to do a bit more research on string theory you may come to understand that it is a theory of probability as a particle can exist in different places at the same time and that the result of an observation is effected by the very fact that it was observed therefore one can not give a precise answer and has to use probability. One day science may be able to answer all the questions and who knows what those answers may be? As far as I'm concerned whatever intelligence is at work creating all the life forms on the planet, and the planet itself it is of a higher intelligence than that of the human brain and therefore can be referred to as a higher power (insert the name of your chosen higher power here). A name is just a label, much used by simple minded people to allow them to say that they know what something is without having to give it any proper thought. It does not matter what name you choose to use. If you want to believe that the name of what creates life and animates your body is science you are most welcome to carry on using it.
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: Stillness is only too ready to produce the "arrogance " card to be used when someone else says something beyond his/her knowledge - but it is arrogance to assume that just because Stillness doesn't know something then nobody else can know it either. Stillness has continued to compound his /her ignorance by suggest that one aspect of quantum mechanics (string theory) is all about a "point of view" citing random bits of soundbite physics to suggest some understanding of the subject. and trying to suggest that different points of view can be equally true. So you regard anyone who spends years in education learning these subjects properly is just being "arrogant" and that your "point of view" has some kind of deserved equivalence with informed knowledge? Your "point of view" is an opinion which has no standard validation, whereas String theory is about probabllity, not opinion. And if you don;t know about probability theory don't pretend you do. It's more complicated than you think. You are mixing different concepts and displaying your inability to formulate coherent structured thought. Stick to your "faith" if you are so scared of the physical world, but don't try and used it to claim that everything else is a matter of "faith" as well. Now that is real arrogance.[/p][/quote]At what point did I use the word faith? If you care to do a bit more research on string theory you may come to understand that it is a theory of probability as a particle can exist in different places at the same time and that the result of an observation is effected by the very fact that it was observed therefore one can not give a precise answer and has to use probability. One day science may be able to answer all the questions and who knows what those answers may be? As far as I'm concerned whatever intelligence is at work creating all the life forms on the planet, and the planet itself it is of a higher intelligence than that of the human brain and therefore can be referred to as a higher power (insert the name of your chosen higher power here). A name is just a label, much used by simple minded people to allow them to say that they know what something is without having to give it any proper thought. It does not matter what name you choose to use. If you want to believe that the name of what creates life and animates your body is science you are most welcome to carry on using it. Stillness

12:58pm Wed 9 Jan 13

freefinker says...

Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness is only too ready to produce the "arrogance " card to be used when someone else says something beyond his/her knowledge - but it is arrogance to assume that just because Stillness doesn't know something then nobody else can know it either. Stillness has continued to compound his /her ignorance by suggest that one aspect of quantum mechanics (string theory) is all about a "point of view" citing random bits of soundbite physics to suggest some understanding of the subject. and trying to suggest that different points of view can be equally true. So you regard anyone who spends years in education learning these subjects properly is just being "arrogant" and that your "point of view" has some kind of deserved equivalence with informed knowledge? Your "point of view" is an opinion which has no standard validation, whereas String theory is about probabllity, not opinion. And if you don;t know about probability theory don't pretend you do. It's more complicated than you think. You are mixing different concepts and displaying your inability to formulate coherent structured thought. Stick to your "faith" if you are so scared of the physical world, but don't try and used it to claim that everything else is a matter of "faith" as well. Now that is real arrogance.
At what point did I use the word faith? If you care to do a bit more research on string theory you may come to understand that it is a theory of probability as a particle can exist in different places at the same time and that the result of an observation is effected by the very fact that it was observed therefore one can not give a precise answer and has to use probability. One day science may be able to answer all the questions and who knows what those answers may be? As far as I'm concerned whatever intelligence is at work creating all the life forms on the planet, and the planet itself it is of a higher intelligence than that of the human brain and therefore can be referred to as a higher power (insert the name of your chosen higher power here). A name is just a label, much used by simple minded people to allow them to say that they know what something is without having to give it any proper thought. It does not matter what name you choose to use. If you want to believe that the name of what creates life and animates your body is science you are most welcome to carry on using it.
.. ah, creating.

'whatever intelligence is at work creating all the life forms on the planet'.

And the creator of this creator was .. ?

And that creator's creator, an infinitum.

You solve nothing by ‘creating’ such abstract inventions.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: Stillness is only too ready to produce the "arrogance " card to be used when someone else says something beyond his/her knowledge - but it is arrogance to assume that just because Stillness doesn't know something then nobody else can know it either. Stillness has continued to compound his /her ignorance by suggest that one aspect of quantum mechanics (string theory) is all about a "point of view" citing random bits of soundbite physics to suggest some understanding of the subject. and trying to suggest that different points of view can be equally true. So you regard anyone who spends years in education learning these subjects properly is just being "arrogant" and that your "point of view" has some kind of deserved equivalence with informed knowledge? Your "point of view" is an opinion which has no standard validation, whereas String theory is about probabllity, not opinion. And if you don;t know about probability theory don't pretend you do. It's more complicated than you think. You are mixing different concepts and displaying your inability to formulate coherent structured thought. Stick to your "faith" if you are so scared of the physical world, but don't try and used it to claim that everything else is a matter of "faith" as well. Now that is real arrogance.[/p][/quote]At what point did I use the word faith? If you care to do a bit more research on string theory you may come to understand that it is a theory of probability as a particle can exist in different places at the same time and that the result of an observation is effected by the very fact that it was observed therefore one can not give a precise answer and has to use probability. One day science may be able to answer all the questions and who knows what those answers may be? As far as I'm concerned whatever intelligence is at work creating all the life forms on the planet, and the planet itself it is of a higher intelligence than that of the human brain and therefore can be referred to as a higher power (insert the name of your chosen higher power here). A name is just a label, much used by simple minded people to allow them to say that they know what something is without having to give it any proper thought. It does not matter what name you choose to use. If you want to believe that the name of what creates life and animates your body is science you are most welcome to carry on using it.[/p][/quote].. ah, creating. 'whatever intelligence is at work creating all the life forms on the planet'. And the creator of this creator was .. ? And that creator's creator, an infinitum. You solve nothing by ‘creating’ such abstract inventions. freefinker

1:00pm Wed 9 Jan 13

Stillness says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
freefinker wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.
Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?
.. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.
Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb? I'm listening.
You mean you really don;t know anything about DNA and cell chemistry either? You are unravelling before everyone's eyes. What do you think all these intelligent university biochemistry students say when they get to that? "Umm we don't actually know how it happens. Let's go off and paray about it and hope for the best". Of course they know FFS! - what do you think the human genome project was all about? That was over 10 years ago and most cancer research today is based on that exact understanding. It is worrying how ill informed religious believers actually are.
Show me your evidence. Recommend one book. Post a link to a site that will explain (with proof not just a theory) how a cell knows what organ of the body it should become. If you think that you have such great control of your body grow an extra ear. If that's too difficult just try and get control of the random noise in your head that you believe to be thinking. Science and religion are not as far apart as someone has told you. I say told you as I find it hard to believe that you could have thought of it for yourself.
As Einstein put it "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind".
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.[/p][/quote]Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?[/p][/quote].. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.[/p][/quote]Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb? I'm listening.[/p][/quote]You mean you really don;t know anything about DNA and cell chemistry either? You are unravelling before everyone's eyes. What do you think all these intelligent university biochemistry students say when they get to that? "Umm we don't actually know how it happens. Let's go off and paray about it and hope for the best". Of course they know FFS! - what do you think the human genome project was all about? That was over 10 years ago and most cancer research today is based on that exact understanding. It is worrying how ill informed religious believers actually are.[/p][/quote]Show me your evidence. Recommend one book. Post a link to a site that will explain (with proof not just a theory) how a cell knows what organ of the body it should become. If you think that you have such great control of your body grow an extra ear. If that's too difficult just try and get control of the random noise in your head that you believe to be thinking. Science and religion are not as far apart as someone has told you. I say told you as I find it hard to believe that you could have thought of it for yourself. As Einstein put it "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind". Stillness

2:49pm Wed 9 Jan 13

freefinker says...

Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
freefinker wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.
Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?
.. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.
Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb? I'm listening.
You mean you really don;t know anything about DNA and cell chemistry either? You are unravelling before everyone's eyes. What do you think all these intelligent university biochemistry students say when they get to that? "Umm we don't actually know how it happens. Let's go off and paray about it and hope for the best". Of course they know FFS! - what do you think the human genome project was all about? That was over 10 years ago and most cancer research today is based on that exact understanding. It is worrying how ill informed religious believers actually are.
Show me your evidence. Recommend one book. Post a link to a site that will explain (with proof not just a theory) how a cell knows what organ of the body it should become. If you think that you have such great control of your body grow an extra ear. If that's too difficult just try and get control of the random noise in your head that you believe to be thinking. Science and religion are not as far apart as someone has told you. I say told you as I find it hard to believe that you could have thought of it for yourself.
As Einstein put it "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind".
.. ah, Einstein.

You do realise how out of context that quote is? It is from a 1954 letter to the philosopher Eric Gutkind.

Einstein states in this same letter “The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.[/p][/quote]Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?[/p][/quote].. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.[/p][/quote]Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb? I'm listening.[/p][/quote]You mean you really don;t know anything about DNA and cell chemistry either? You are unravelling before everyone's eyes. What do you think all these intelligent university biochemistry students say when they get to that? "Umm we don't actually know how it happens. Let's go off and paray about it and hope for the best". Of course they know FFS! - what do you think the human genome project was all about? That was over 10 years ago and most cancer research today is based on that exact understanding. It is worrying how ill informed religious believers actually are.[/p][/quote]Show me your evidence. Recommend one book. Post a link to a site that will explain (with proof not just a theory) how a cell knows what organ of the body it should become. If you think that you have such great control of your body grow an extra ear. If that's too difficult just try and get control of the random noise in your head that you believe to be thinking. Science and religion are not as far apart as someone has told you. I say told you as I find it hard to believe that you could have thought of it for yourself. As Einstein put it "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind".[/p][/quote].. ah, Einstein. You do realise how out of context that quote is? It is from a 1954 letter to the philosopher Eric Gutkind. Einstein states in this same letter “The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." freefinker

4:05pm Wed 9 Jan 13

Stillness says...

freefinker wrote:
Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
Stillness wrote:
freefinker wrote:
Stillness wrote:
Stephen J wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.
Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?
.. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.
Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb? I'm listening.
You mean you really don;t know anything about DNA and cell chemistry either? You are unravelling before everyone's eyes. What do you think all these intelligent university biochemistry students say when they get to that? "Umm we don't actually know how it happens. Let's go off and paray about it and hope for the best". Of course they know FFS! - what do you think the human genome project was all about? That was over 10 years ago and most cancer research today is based on that exact understanding. It is worrying how ill informed religious believers actually are.
Show me your evidence. Recommend one book. Post a link to a site that will explain (with proof not just a theory) how a cell knows what organ of the body it should become. If you think that you have such great control of your body grow an extra ear. If that's too difficult just try and get control of the random noise in your head that you believe to be thinking. Science and religion are not as far apart as someone has told you. I say told you as I find it hard to believe that you could have thought of it for yourself.
As Einstein put it "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind".
.. ah, Einstein.

You do realise how out of context that quote is? It is from a 1954 letter to the philosopher Eric Gutkind.

Einstein states in this same letter “The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
Yes and he was referring to the childish view that even most Christians would not go along with now of a separate smiley, shiny bearded man sitting above the clouds. Surely you don't still equate that view with today's view of a higher power do you? No, that cant be the case, can it? If you're so keen on knocking the bible I'll have to assume that you have never taken the time to study it and look at message conveyed by the stories. It's called "teaching by expedient means".
Anyway it's time for me to head of to a happy clappy meeting, and it's not even Sunday.
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen J[/bold] wrote: So an intelligent life force is the most reasonable explanation of how a chair leg holds together. Given how proof of that would upset the entire physics world you should start thinking about your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. Good luck with it.[/p][/quote]Physics can explain beautifully why atoms clump together. It doesn't do such a good job at explaining how they know that they are to clump together to form wood, heart tissue, brain tissue, hair, blood, nerves, bone etc so I would have thought there must be some "other" intelligence at work. Or do you think it's just by luck?[/p][/quote].. so you don't understand the chemistry of life. .. so you invent a 'life force' or god. .. I'd suggest you try some reading - you could start with Darwin and work your way through to the present. .. the explainable truth trumps the mythical god every time.[/p][/quote]Come on then smart arse, enlighten us as to "the chemistry of life". Just tell us how a cell knows that it should become part of an eyeball when its is developing in the womb? I'm listening.[/p][/quote]You mean you really don;t know anything about DNA and cell chemistry either? You are unravelling before everyone's eyes. What do you think all these intelligent university biochemistry students say when they get to that? "Umm we don't actually know how it happens. Let's go off and paray about it and hope for the best". Of course they know FFS! - what do you think the human genome project was all about? That was over 10 years ago and most cancer research today is based on that exact understanding. It is worrying how ill informed religious believers actually are.[/p][/quote]Show me your evidence. Recommend one book. Post a link to a site that will explain (with proof not just a theory) how a cell knows what organ of the body it should become. If you think that you have such great control of your body grow an extra ear. If that's too difficult just try and get control of the random noise in your head that you believe to be thinking. Science and religion are not as far apart as someone has told you. I say told you as I find it hard to believe that you could have thought of it for yourself. As Einstein put it "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind".[/p][/quote].. ah, Einstein. You do realise how out of context that quote is? It is from a 1954 letter to the philosopher Eric Gutkind. Einstein states in this same letter “The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."[/p][/quote]Yes and he was referring to the childish view that even most Christians would not go along with now of a separate smiley, shiny bearded man sitting above the clouds. Surely you don't still equate that view with today's view of a higher power do you? No, that cant be the case, can it? If you're so keen on knocking the bible I'll have to assume that you have never taken the time to study it and look at message conveyed by the stories. It's called "teaching by expedient means". Anyway it's time for me to head of to a happy clappy meeting, and it's not even Sunday. Stillness

4:48pm Wed 9 Jan 13

lisa whitemore says...

Kamawoop wrote:
Maybe arguments either way, don't really care. What I want to know is can anyone give any reason why this is an issue of faith?

Maybe the scientoligist nutters and the luddites gospel choir, but for anyone else...?
its all down to money,surely its obvious or is it not? Council Leader & his poodles have only communicated with these grps after realising these groups usually have large amounts of money that the City doesnt have. They also have alot of charity volunteers too, readily to offer their services free of charge out of sheer belief in religion. Lab Council rudely snubbed alot of highly respected representatives letters&emails last year and now all of a sudden want them to help.....Which of course they will because of their faiths....
[quote][p][bold]Kamawoop[/bold] wrote: Maybe arguments either way, don't really care. What I want to know is can anyone give any reason why this is an issue of faith? Maybe the scientoligist nutters and the luddites gospel choir, but for anyone else...?[/p][/quote]its all down to money,surely its obvious or is it not? Council Leader & his poodles have only communicated with these grps after realising these groups usually have large amounts of money that the City doesnt have. They also have alot of charity volunteers too, readily to offer their services free of charge out of sheer belief in religion. Lab Council rudely snubbed alot of highly respected representatives letters&emails last year and now all of a sudden want them to help.....Which of course they will because of their faiths.... lisa whitemore

5:50pm Wed 9 Jan 13

Stillness says...

lisa whitemore wrote:
Kamawoop wrote:
Maybe arguments either way, don't really care. What I want to know is can anyone give any reason why this is an issue of faith?

Maybe the scientoligist nutters and the luddites gospel choir, but for anyone else...?
its all down to money,surely its obvious or is it not? Council Leader & his poodles have only communicated with these grps after realising these groups usually have large amounts of money that the City doesnt have. They also have alot of charity volunteers too, readily to offer their services free of charge out of sheer belief in religion. Lab Council rudely snubbed alot of highly respected representatives letters&emails last year and now all of a sudden want them to help.....Which of course they will because of their faiths....
What! Someone has faith in the council? Now that is taking faith too far.
[quote][p][bold]lisa whitemore[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Kamawoop[/bold] wrote: Maybe arguments either way, don't really care. What I want to know is can anyone give any reason why this is an issue of faith? Maybe the scientoligist nutters and the luddites gospel choir, but for anyone else...?[/p][/quote]its all down to money,surely its obvious or is it not? Council Leader & his poodles have only communicated with these grps after realising these groups usually have large amounts of money that the City doesnt have. They also have alot of charity volunteers too, readily to offer their services free of charge out of sheer belief in religion. Lab Council rudely snubbed alot of highly respected representatives letters&emails last year and now all of a sudden want them to help.....Which of course they will because of their faiths....[/p][/quote]What! Someone has faith in the council? Now that is taking faith too far. Stillness

7:36pm Wed 9 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

There are one or two on here educated to reasonable standard and yes I'm proud to be one of them, and there is nothing more tiresome than listening to a pompous autodidact like Stillness pontificating on something he has no experience of. I can enjoy a chat and exchange stories with other ex physicists about our time as graduates, researchers or lowly paid interns and it is obvious in a second who has and has not got some real world experience, but listening to someone like Stillness regurgitating internet text while clearly lacking any insight or experience is quite pathetic. He demonstrates ignorance in how the protein molecules in DNA can inform the construction of a cell, and he can quote bits of string theory with no real appreciation or understanding, and yet still find the time to try and split hairs over the apparent difference between his "belief" and his "faith" while spouting some illogical tripe about intelligent design. The only difference between you and Southy is that you can spell. Other than that Stinllness displays the same lack of understanding and the same arrogance that his uninformed opinion has some moral equivalence to those who worked a lot harder than him.
There are one or two on here educated to reasonable standard and yes I'm proud to be one of them, and there is nothing more tiresome than listening to a pompous autodidact like Stillness pontificating on something he has no experience of. I can enjoy a chat and exchange stories with other ex physicists about our time as graduates, researchers or lowly paid interns and it is obvious in a second who has and has not got some real world experience, but listening to someone like Stillness regurgitating internet text while clearly lacking any insight or experience is quite pathetic. He demonstrates ignorance in how the protein molecules in DNA can inform the construction of a cell, and he can quote bits of string theory with no real appreciation or understanding, and yet still find the time to try and split hairs over the apparent difference between his "belief" and his "faith" while spouting some illogical tripe about intelligent design. The only difference between you and Southy is that you can spell. Other than that Stinllness displays the same lack of understanding and the same arrogance that his uninformed opinion has some moral equivalence to those who worked a lot harder than him. The Wickham Man

9:06pm Wed 9 Jan 13

Stillness says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
There are one or two on here educated to reasonable standard and yes I'm proud to be one of them, and there is nothing more tiresome than listening to a pompous autodidact like Stillness pontificating on something he has no experience of. I can enjoy a chat and exchange stories with other ex physicists about our time as graduates, researchers or lowly paid interns and it is obvious in a second who has and has not got some real world experience, but listening to someone like Stillness regurgitating internet text while clearly lacking any insight or experience is quite pathetic. He demonstrates ignorance in how the protein molecules in DNA can inform the construction of a cell, and he can quote bits of string theory with no real appreciation or understanding, and yet still find the time to try and split hairs over the apparent difference between his "belief" and his "faith" while spouting some illogical tripe about intelligent design. The only difference between you and Southy is that you can spell. Other than that Stinllness displays the same lack of understanding and the same arrogance that his uninformed opinion has some moral equivalence to those who worked a lot harder than him.
Stop reading my posts then. Simples. Mind you if you think that Steven Hawkins papers are "internet text" perhaps you should follow your own advise. I'm glad that I have managed to upset you so much. It shows how shallow you are and how attached you are to your point of view. You will make a great fundamentalist one day.
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: There are one or two on here educated to reasonable standard and yes I'm proud to be one of them, and there is nothing more tiresome than listening to a pompous autodidact like Stillness pontificating on something he has no experience of. I can enjoy a chat and exchange stories with other ex physicists about our time as graduates, researchers or lowly paid interns and it is obvious in a second who has and has not got some real world experience, but listening to someone like Stillness regurgitating internet text while clearly lacking any insight or experience is quite pathetic. He demonstrates ignorance in how the protein molecules in DNA can inform the construction of a cell, and he can quote bits of string theory with no real appreciation or understanding, and yet still find the time to try and split hairs over the apparent difference between his "belief" and his "faith" while spouting some illogical tripe about intelligent design. The only difference between you and Southy is that you can spell. Other than that Stinllness displays the same lack of understanding and the same arrogance that his uninformed opinion has some moral equivalence to those who worked a lot harder than him.[/p][/quote]Stop reading my posts then. Simples. Mind you if you think that Steven Hawkins papers are "internet text" perhaps you should follow your own advise. I'm glad that I have managed to upset you so much. It shows how shallow you are and how attached you are to your point of view. You will make a great fundamentalist one day. Stillness

10:33am Thu 10 Jan 13

The Wickham Man says...

"Steven Hawkins" eh? I must look him up. Stephen Hawking on the other hand is a cosmologist, at the opposite end of the scale to the string theorists, though both are looking to complete the same standard model from opposite ends. What cosmology has to do with cell biology remains a mystery, as does all the mistakes that this creator of yours made when putting DNA together. If you read "Genome" by Matt Ridley you will understand how DNA informs the cell what it is to become, and how it should behave, and also how all the false and useless pieces of DNA in the strand show that there was definitely no "intelligent design in its original construction. I'm no biologist but it is obsolutely clear how cell construction works, and how basic molecular codes embodied within amino acids and enzymes govern the bigger construction projects in the body. Meanwhile back in the material world, why should the venn diagram circle of creation believers sit right over the circle of those who think fluoridation is wrong? How do the priests and imams know that there are not members of their flock who don't care much about fluoridation at all, or maybe even actively support it? Perhaps the Diagram should be headed....."How faith denies freedom of expression"
"Steven Hawkins" eh? I must look him up. Stephen Hawking on the other hand is a cosmologist, at the opposite end of the scale to the string theorists, though both are looking to complete the same standard model from opposite ends. What cosmology has to do with cell biology remains a mystery, as does all the mistakes that this creator of yours made when putting DNA together. If you read "Genome" by Matt Ridley you will understand how DNA informs the cell what it is to become, and how it should behave, and also how all the false and useless pieces of DNA in the strand show that there was definitely no "intelligent design in its original construction. I'm no biologist but it is obsolutely clear how cell construction works, and how basic molecular codes embodied within amino acids and enzymes govern the bigger construction projects in the body. Meanwhile back in the material world, why should the venn diagram circle of creation believers sit right over the circle of those who think fluoridation is wrong? How do the priests and imams know that there are not members of their flock who don't care much about fluoridation at all, or maybe even actively support it? Perhaps the Diagram should be headed....."How faith denies freedom of expression" The Wickham Man

11:04am Thu 10 Jan 13

Inform Al says...

The Wickham Man wrote:
"Steven Hawkins" eh? I must look him up. Stephen Hawking on the other hand is a cosmologist, at the opposite end of the scale to the string theorists, though both are looking to complete the same standard model from opposite ends. What cosmology has to do with cell biology remains a mystery, as does all the mistakes that this creator of yours made when putting DNA together. If you read "Genome" by Matt Ridley you will understand how DNA informs the cell what it is to become, and how it should behave, and also how all the false and useless pieces of DNA in the strand show that there was definitely no "intelligent design in its original construction. I'm no biologist but it is obsolutely clear how cell construction works, and how basic molecular codes embodied within amino acids and enzymes govern the bigger construction projects in the body. Meanwhile back in the material world, why should the venn diagram circle of creation believers sit right over the circle of those who think fluoridation is wrong? How do the priests and imams know that there are not members of their flock who don't care much about fluoridation at all, or maybe even actively support it? Perhaps the Diagram should be headed....."How faith denies freedom of expression"
As a clear majority of us have stated we don't want our water supplies poisoned it would seem that the religious lot are more in tune with reality on this occasion than you.
[quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: "Steven Hawkins" eh? I must look him up. Stephen Hawking on the other hand is a cosmologist, at the opposite end of the scale to the string theorists, though both are looking to complete the same standard model from opposite ends. What cosmology has to do with cell biology remains a mystery, as does all the mistakes that this creator of yours made when putting DNA together. If you read "Genome" by Matt Ridley you will understand how DNA informs the cell what it is to become, and how it should behave, and also how all the false and useless pieces of DNA in the strand show that there was definitely no "intelligent design in its original construction. I'm no biologist but it is obsolutely clear how cell construction works, and how basic molecular codes embodied within amino acids and enzymes govern the bigger construction projects in the body. Meanwhile back in the material world, why should the venn diagram circle of creation believers sit right over the circle of those who think fluoridation is wrong? How do the priests and imams know that there are not members of their flock who don't care much about fluoridation at all, or maybe even actively support it? Perhaps the Diagram should be headed....."How faith denies freedom of expression"[/p][/quote]As a clear majority of us have stated we don't want our water supplies poisoned it would seem that the religious lot are more in tune with reality on this occasion than you. Inform Al

11:28pm Thu 10 Jan 13

BackStreetPunk says...

One thing goes without saying: you better have faith in the water you drink.

That's independent of the God you believe in, the God you don't believe in, or the god you can't actually give a toss about.
One thing goes without saying: you better have faith in the water you drink. That's independent of the God you believe in, the God you don't believe in, or the god you can't actually give a toss about. BackStreetPunk

5:15pm Sat 12 Jan 13

Dan Soton says...

Dan Soton wrote:
Subject48 wrote:
Don’t bother Dan. These people don’t care about the risks or other view points.

They are brain dead and think every anti-government-poli


cy viewpoint, amounts to a crazy conspiracy theory.

No one seems to realize that if there is any shred of doubt about this being harmless, even a shred, it should not be introduced into something as essential as our water supply.

For those that want fluoride in the water, government should sell sashes’ or something you can add to every glass of water you drink don’t make me drink it if I don’t want to risk cancer due to contradicting evidence.

The main argument outlined by the echo is for children under 5. Don’t you loose your teeth at 6-7 and grow new ones?? (cant remember how this works)
Subject says... These people don't care about the risks of Fluoridation.


-

Never a truer word.. these people never care about risks only their looks, in fact, they redefine Narcissism.
Subject says... they think every Anti-Fluoridation viewpoint is a crazy conspiracy theory.


That works both ways.. some US Pro-Fluoridation advocates think being against Fluoridation is an Un-American Activity, if you like, a Chinese/Russian sympathiser.


As I've said before... Fluoridation advocates redefine Narcissism, in their vanity they spend £100s a year on toxic fluoride pills and treatments and see Water Fluoridation as a means of saving themselves £'s, I'm not falling for it.


Here's one for SHA.. Water Fluoridation (in a vain hope it works) is not going to save anyone £'s on dental bills, Dentist's will be Dentist's and up their charges.
[quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Subject48[/bold] wrote: Don’t bother Dan. These people don’t care about the risks or other view points. They are brain dead and think every anti-government-poli cy viewpoint, amounts to a crazy conspiracy theory. No one seems to realize that if there is any shred of doubt about this being harmless, even a shred, it should not be introduced into something as essential as our water supply. For those that want fluoride in the water, government should sell sashes’ or something you can add to every glass of water you drink don’t make me drink it if I don’t want to risk cancer due to contradicting evidence. The main argument outlined by the echo is for children under 5. Don’t you loose your teeth at 6-7 and grow new ones?? (cant remember how this works)[/p][/quote]Subject says... These people don't care about the risks of Fluoridation. - Never a truer word.. these people never care about risks only their looks, in fact, they redefine Narcissism.[/p][/quote]Subject says... they think every Anti-Fluoridation viewpoint is a crazy conspiracy theory. That works both ways.. some US Pro-Fluoridation advocates think being against Fluoridation is an Un-American Activity, if you like, a Chinese/Russian sympathiser. As I've said before... Fluoridation advocates redefine Narcissism, in their vanity they spend £100s a year on toxic fluoride pills and treatments and see Water Fluoridation as a means of saving themselves £'s, I'm not falling for it. Here's one for SHA.. Water Fluoridation (in a vain hope it works) is not going to save anyone £'s on dental bills, Dentist's will be Dentist's and up their charges. Dan Soton

4:02pm Sun 13 Jan 13

Dan Soton says...

Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide.
-


JMHO..


1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments.

-



ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS...

see page 38 to 39

figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund.


• There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications.

FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million


Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received.


-

http://www.rarercanc


ers.org.uk/images/st


ories/news/pdf/0611/


funding_cancer_drugs


_final.pdf


also.

-

http://www.guardian.


co.uk/society/blog/2


011/jun/09/nhs-refor


ms-live-blog
Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer


-



2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East..

Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer.

-




PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL.

Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006.

The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period.

East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases.

AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX.

-

http://www.sph.nhs.u

k/sph-documents/Fina

l_Head_-_Neck_Profil

es_04May2010.pdf



-


DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS..

SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated.

The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable.

-


http://www.namastepu

blishing.co.uk/the-e

ffects-of-fluoride-o

n-the-thyroid-gland/
Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day



-

UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON

Press Release to all Media Outlets

13 JAN 2013

United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation

We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume .

Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue .

There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe .

In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC.

Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures.

In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary.

We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride.

But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin.

Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water .
We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue.

For further info contact organising members of UCS

Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail
.co.uk

-



http://hampshireagai
nstfluoridation.blog
spot.co.uk/2013/01/u
nited-communities-of
-southampton.html
[quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide. - JMHO.. 1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments. - ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS... see page 38 to 39 figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund. • There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications. FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received. - http://www.rarercanc ers.org.uk/images/st ories/news/pdf/0611/ funding_cancer_drugs _final.pdf also. - http://www.guardian. co.uk/society/blog/2 011/jun/09/nhs-refor ms-live-blog[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer - 2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East.. Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer. - PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL. Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006. The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period. East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases. AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX. - http://www.sph.nhs.u k/sph-documents/Fina l_Head_-_Neck_Profil es_04May2010.pdf - DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS.. SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated. The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable. - http://www.namastepu blishing.co.uk/the-e ffects-of-fluoride-o n-the-thyroid-gland/[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day - UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON Press Release to all Media Outlets 13 JAN 2013 United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume . Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue . There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe . In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC. Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures. In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary. We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride. But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin. Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water . We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue. For further info contact organising members of UCS Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail .co.uk - http://hampshireagai nstfluoridation.blog spot.co.uk/2013/01/u nited-communities-of -southampton.html Dan Soton

5:48pm Mon 14 Jan 13

kingnotail says...

Stillness wrote:
The Wickham Man wrote:
There are one or two on here educated to reasonable standard and yes I'm proud to be one of them, and there is nothing more tiresome than listening to a pompous autodidact like Stillness pontificating on something he has no experience of. I can enjoy a chat and exchange stories with other ex physicists about our time as graduates, researchers or lowly paid interns and it is obvious in a second who has and has not got some real world experience, but listening to someone like Stillness regurgitating internet text while clearly lacking any insight or experience is quite pathetic. He demonstrates ignorance in how the protein molecules in DNA can inform the construction of a cell, and he can quote bits of string theory with no real appreciation or understanding, and yet still find the time to try and split hairs over the apparent difference between his "belief" and his "faith" while spouting some illogical tripe about intelligent design. The only difference between you and Southy is that you can spell. Other than that Stinllness displays the same lack of understanding and the same arrogance that his uninformed opinion has some moral equivalence to those who worked a lot harder than him.
Stop reading my posts then. Simples. Mind you if you think that Steven Hawkins papers are "internet text" perhaps you should follow your own advise. I'm glad that I have managed to upset you so much. It shows how shallow you are and how attached you are to your point of view. You will make a great fundamentalist one day.
'Steven Hawkins'? 'Advise'? FAIL.
[quote][p][bold]Stillness[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Wickham Man[/bold] wrote: There are one or two on here educated to reasonable standard and yes I'm proud to be one of them, and there is nothing more tiresome than listening to a pompous autodidact like Stillness pontificating on something he has no experience of. I can enjoy a chat and exchange stories with other ex physicists about our time as graduates, researchers or lowly paid interns and it is obvious in a second who has and has not got some real world experience, but listening to someone like Stillness regurgitating internet text while clearly lacking any insight or experience is quite pathetic. He demonstrates ignorance in how the protein molecules in DNA can inform the construction of a cell, and he can quote bits of string theory with no real appreciation or understanding, and yet still find the time to try and split hairs over the apparent difference between his "belief" and his "faith" while spouting some illogical tripe about intelligent design. The only difference between you and Southy is that you can spell. Other than that Stinllness displays the same lack of understanding and the same arrogance that his uninformed opinion has some moral equivalence to those who worked a lot harder than him.[/p][/quote]Stop reading my posts then. Simples. Mind you if you think that Steven Hawkins papers are "internet text" perhaps you should follow your own advise. I'm glad that I have managed to upset you so much. It shows how shallow you are and how attached you are to your point of view. You will make a great fundamentalist one day.[/p][/quote]'Steven Hawkins'? 'Advise'? FAIL. kingnotail

5:37am Wed 30 Jan 13

Dan Soton says...

Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide.
-


JMHO..


1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments.

-



ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS...

see page 38 to 39

figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund.


• There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications.

FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million


Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received.


-

http://www.rarercanc



ers.org.uk/images/st



ories/news/pdf/0611/



funding_cancer_drugs



_final.pdf


also.

-

http://www.guardian.



co.uk/society/blog/2



011/jun/09/nhs-refor



ms-live-blog
Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer


-



2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East..

Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer.

-




PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL.

Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006.

The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period.

East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases.

AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX.

-

http://www.sph.nhs.u


k/sph-documents/Fina


l_Head_-_Neck_Profil


es_04May2010.pdf



-


DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS..

SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated.

The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable.

-


http://www.namastepu


blishing.co.uk/the-e


ffects-of-fluoride-o


n-the-thyroid-gland/
Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day



-

UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON

Press Release to all Media Outlets

13 JAN 2013

United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation

We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume .

Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue .

There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe .

In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC.

Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures.

In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary.

We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride.

But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin.

Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water .
We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue.

For further info contact organising members of UCS

Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail

.co.uk

-



http://hampshireagai

nstfluoridation.blog

spot.co.uk/2013/01/u

nited-communities-of

-southampton.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents


-

AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009.

-




Cairns council votes to dump fluoride..

Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM.

The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents.

But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue.

"If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday.

"The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent."

Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said.

Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month.

-


http://www.brisbanet
imes.com.au/queensla
nd/cairns-council-vo
tes-to-dump-fluoride
-20130130-2dk1a.html
[quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide. - JMHO.. 1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments. - ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS... see page 38 to 39 figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund. • There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications. FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received. - http://www.rarercanc ers.org.uk/images/st ories/news/pdf/0611/ funding_cancer_drugs _final.pdf also. - http://www.guardian. co.uk/society/blog/2 011/jun/09/nhs-refor ms-live-blog[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer - 2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East.. Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer. - PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL. Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006. The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period. East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases. AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX. - http://www.sph.nhs.u k/sph-documents/Fina l_Head_-_Neck_Profil es_04May2010.pdf - DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS.. SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated. The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable. - http://www.namastepu blishing.co.uk/the-e ffects-of-fluoride-o n-the-thyroid-gland/[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day - UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON Press Release to all Media Outlets 13 JAN 2013 United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume . Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue . There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe . In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC. Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures. In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary. We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride. But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin. Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water . We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue. For further info contact organising members of UCS Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail .co.uk - http://hampshireagai nstfluoridation.blog spot.co.uk/2013/01/u nited-communities-of -southampton.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents - AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009. - Cairns council votes to dump fluoride.. Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM. The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents. But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue. "If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday. "The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent." Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said. Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month. - http://www.brisbanet imes.com.au/queensla nd/cairns-council-vo tes-to-dump-fluoride -20130130-2dk1a.html Dan Soton

7:13am Fri 1 Feb 13

Dan Soton says...

Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide.
-


JMHO..


1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments.

-



ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS...

see page 38 to 39

figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund.


• There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications.

FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million


Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received.


-

http://www.rarercanc




ers.org.uk/images/st




ories/news/pdf/0611/




funding_cancer_drugs




_final.pdf


also.

-

http://www.guardian.




co.uk/society/blog/2




011/jun/09/nhs-refor




ms-live-blog
Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer


-



2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East..

Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer.

-




PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL.

Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006.

The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period.

East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases.

AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX.

-

http://www.sph.nhs.u



k/sph-documents/Fina



l_Head_-_Neck_Profil



es_04May2010.pdf



-


DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS..

SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated.

The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable.

-


http://www.namastepu



blishing.co.uk/the-e



ffects-of-fluoride-o



n-the-thyroid-gland/
Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day



-

UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON

Press Release to all Media Outlets

13 JAN 2013

United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation

We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume .

Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue .

There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe .

In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC.

Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures.

In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary.

We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride.

But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin.

Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water .
We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue.

For further info contact organising members of UCS

Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail


.co.uk

-



http://hampshireagai


nstfluoridation.blog


spot.co.uk/2013/01/u


nited-communities-of


-southampton.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents


-

AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009.

-




Cairns council votes to dump fluoride..

Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM.

The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents.

But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue.

"If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday.

"The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent."

Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said.

Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month.

-


http://www.brisbanet

imes.com.au/queensla

nd/cairns-council-vo

tes-to-dump-fluoride

-20130130-2dk1a.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.


-


THE TEETH OF SOUTHAMPTON'S 5 YEAR OLD'S ARE GENERALLY BETTER THAN THE ENGLAND AVERAGE.

In fact tooth decay in our close neighbors 5 year old's, MILTON KEYNES, Reading & Slough are significantly worse than the England average.

-


www.apho.org.uk/reso
urce/view.aspx?RID=9
5375
-



Here's the killer, MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated... 1.0 to 1.5 mg/f which is above recommended fluoridated levels

-

http://tinyurl.com/b
8m9wh8
[quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide. - JMHO.. 1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments. - ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS... see page 38 to 39 figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund. • There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications. FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received. - http://www.rarercanc ers.org.uk/images/st ories/news/pdf/0611/ funding_cancer_drugs _final.pdf also. - http://www.guardian. co.uk/society/blog/2 011/jun/09/nhs-refor ms-live-blog[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer - 2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East.. Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer. - PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL. Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006. The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period. East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases. AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX. - http://www.sph.nhs.u k/sph-documents/Fina l_Head_-_Neck_Profil es_04May2010.pdf - DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS.. SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated. The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable. - http://www.namastepu blishing.co.uk/the-e ffects-of-fluoride-o n-the-thyroid-gland/[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day - UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON Press Release to all Media Outlets 13 JAN 2013 United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume . Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue . There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe . In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC. Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures. In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary. We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride. But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin. Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water . We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue. For further info contact organising members of UCS Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail .co.uk - http://hampshireagai nstfluoridation.blog spot.co.uk/2013/01/u nited-communities-of -southampton.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents - AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009. - Cairns council votes to dump fluoride.. Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM. The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents. But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue. "If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday. "The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent." Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said. Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month. - http://www.brisbanet imes.com.au/queensla nd/cairns-council-vo tes-to-dump-fluoride -20130130-2dk1a.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. - THE TEETH OF SOUTHAMPTON'S 5 YEAR OLD'S ARE GENERALLY BETTER THAN THE ENGLAND AVERAGE. In fact tooth decay in our close neighbors 5 year old's, MILTON KEYNES, Reading & Slough are significantly worse than the England average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Here's the killer, MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated... 1.0 to 1.5 mg/f which is above recommended fluoridated levels - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8 Dan Soton

2:56pm Sun 3 Feb 13

Dan Soton says...

Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide.
-


JMHO..


1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments.

-



ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS...

see page 38 to 39

figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund.


• There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications.

FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million


Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received.


-

http://www.rarercanc





ers.org.uk/images/st





ories/news/pdf/0611/





funding_cancer_drugs





_final.pdf


also.

-

http://www.guardian.





co.uk/society/blog/2





011/jun/09/nhs-refor





ms-live-blog
Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer


-



2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East..

Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer.

-




PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL.

Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006.

The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period.

East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases.

AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX.

-

http://www.sph.nhs.u




k/sph-documents/Fina




l_Head_-_Neck_Profil




es_04May2010.pdf



-


DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS..

SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated.

The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable.

-


http://www.namastepu




blishing.co.uk/the-e




ffects-of-fluoride-o




n-the-thyroid-gland/
Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day



-

UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON

Press Release to all Media Outlets

13 JAN 2013

United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation

We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume .

Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue .

There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe .

In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC.

Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures.

In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary.

We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride.

But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin.

Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water .
We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue.

For further info contact organising members of UCS

Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail



.co.uk

-



http://hampshireagai



nstfluoridation.blog



spot.co.uk/2013/01/u



nited-communities-of



-southampton.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents


-

AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009.

-




Cairns council votes to dump fluoride..

Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM.

The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents.

But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue.

"If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday.

"The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent."

Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said.

Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month.

-


http://www.brisbanet


imes.com.au/queensla


nd/cairns-council-vo


tes-to-dump-fluoride


-20130130-2dk1a.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.


-


THE TEETH OF SOUTHAMPTON'S 5 YEAR OLD'S ARE GENERALLY BETTER THAN THE ENGLAND AVERAGE.

In fact tooth decay in our close neighbors 5 year old's, MILTON KEYNES, Reading & Slough are significantly worse than the England average.

-


www.apho.org.uk/reso

urce/view.aspx?RID=9

5375
-



Here's the killer, MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated... 1.0 to 1.5 mg/f which is above recommended fluoridated levels

-

http://tinyurl.com/b

8m9wh8
Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than Southampton's.


-

Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.



Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than SHA's Average.


Southampton's Adult Obesity is Not Significantly different from SHA's Average.


-

www.apho.org.uk/reso
urce/view.aspx?RID=9
5375

-

Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l
-

http://tinyurl.com/b
8m9wh8

-



TAP (fluoridated) WATER CAN MAKE YOU FAT, SAY EXPERTS

Jul 11 2004.

By Caroline Wheeler, Sunday Mercury.

Medical experts claim that West Midlands tap water can make people FAT and could be fuelling rising obesity levels.

For the past 40 years, fluoride has been pumped into the region's tap water to help keep teeth healthy.

But now a top doctor claims that the toxin can cause worrying health side-effects including hypothyroidism, a medical dis-order affecting the thyroid gland which controls weight gain.

And he believes that children may be particularly susceptible to obesity if their mums drank fluoridated water while pregnant.

LAST YEAR, THE WEST MIDLANDS TOPPED THE UK 'FAT LIST' WITH A SHOCKING 22.5 PER CENT OF ITS POPULATION CLASSED CLINICALLY OBESE.

Dr Barry Durrant-Peatfield said: "There is no doubt that fluoride is enzyme disruptive and one thing it affects is thyroid hormones.

"As a result of this disruption, people can finish up with partial under-activity of the thyroid gland.

"Thyroid problems are becoming more common, particularly in Birmingham, and one of the reasons is because of fluoride in the water."

-


http://tinyurl.com/a
jtcvgm
[quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide. - JMHO.. 1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments. - ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS... see page 38 to 39 figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund. • There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications. FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received. - http://www.rarercanc ers.org.uk/images/st ories/news/pdf/0611/ funding_cancer_drugs _final.pdf also. - http://www.guardian. co.uk/society/blog/2 011/jun/09/nhs-refor ms-live-blog[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer - 2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East.. Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer. - PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL. Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006. The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period. East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases. AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX. - http://www.sph.nhs.u k/sph-documents/Fina l_Head_-_Neck_Profil es_04May2010.pdf - DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS.. SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated. The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable. - http://www.namastepu blishing.co.uk/the-e ffects-of-fluoride-o n-the-thyroid-gland/[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day - UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON Press Release to all Media Outlets 13 JAN 2013 United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume . Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue . There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe . In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC. Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures. In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary. We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride. But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin. Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water . We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue. For further info contact organising members of UCS Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail .co.uk - http://hampshireagai nstfluoridation.blog spot.co.uk/2013/01/u nited-communities-of -southampton.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents - AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009. - Cairns council votes to dump fluoride.. Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM. The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents. But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue. "If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday. "The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent." Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said. Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month. - http://www.brisbanet imes.com.au/queensla nd/cairns-council-vo tes-to-dump-fluoride -20130130-2dk1a.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. - THE TEETH OF SOUTHAMPTON'S 5 YEAR OLD'S ARE GENERALLY BETTER THAN THE ENGLAND AVERAGE. In fact tooth decay in our close neighbors 5 year old's, MILTON KEYNES, Reading & Slough are significantly worse than the England average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Here's the killer, MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated... 1.0 to 1.5 mg/f which is above recommended fluoridated levels - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than Southampton's. - Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than SHA's Average. Southampton's Adult Obesity is Not Significantly different from SHA's Average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8 - TAP (fluoridated) WATER CAN MAKE YOU FAT, SAY EXPERTS Jul 11 2004. By Caroline Wheeler, Sunday Mercury. Medical experts claim that West Midlands tap water can make people FAT and could be fuelling rising obesity levels. For the past 40 years, fluoride has been pumped into the region's tap water to help keep teeth healthy. But now a top doctor claims that the toxin can cause worrying health side-effects including hypothyroidism, a medical dis-order affecting the thyroid gland which controls weight gain. And he believes that children may be particularly susceptible to obesity if their mums drank fluoridated water while pregnant. LAST YEAR, THE WEST MIDLANDS TOPPED THE UK 'FAT LIST' WITH A SHOCKING 22.5 PER CENT OF ITS POPULATION CLASSED CLINICALLY OBESE. Dr Barry Durrant-Peatfield said: "There is no doubt that fluoride is enzyme disruptive and one thing it affects is thyroid hormones. "As a result of this disruption, people can finish up with partial under-activity of the thyroid gland. "Thyroid problems are becoming more common, particularly in Birmingham, and one of the reasons is because of fluoride in the water." - http://tinyurl.com/a jtcvgm Dan Soton

3:29am Tue 5 Feb 13

Dan Soton says...

Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide.
-


JMHO..


1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments.

-



ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS...

see page 38 to 39

figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund.


• There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications.

FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million


Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received.


-

http://www.rarercanc






ers.org.uk/images/st






ories/news/pdf/0611/






funding_cancer_drugs






_final.pdf


also.

-

http://www.guardian.






co.uk/society/blog/2






011/jun/09/nhs-refor






ms-live-blog
Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer


-



2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East..

Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer.

-




PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL.

Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006.

The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period.

East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases.

AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX.

-

http://www.sph.nhs.u





k/sph-documents/Fina





l_Head_-_Neck_Profil





es_04May2010.pdf



-


DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS..

SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated.

The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable.

-


http://www.namastepu





blishing.co.uk/the-e





ffects-of-fluoride-o





n-the-thyroid-gland/
Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day



-

UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON

Press Release to all Media Outlets

13 JAN 2013

United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation

We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume .

Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue .

There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe .

In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC.

Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures.

In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary.

We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride.

But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin.

Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water .
We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue.

For further info contact organising members of UCS

Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail




.co.uk

-



http://hampshireagai




nstfluoridation.blog




spot.co.uk/2013/01/u




nited-communities-of




-southampton.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents


-

AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009.

-




Cairns council votes to dump fluoride..

Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM.

The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents.

But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue.

"If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday.

"The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent."

Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said.

Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month.

-


http://www.brisbanet



imes.com.au/queensla



nd/cairns-council-vo



tes-to-dump-fluoride



-20130130-2dk1a.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.


-


THE TEETH OF SOUTHAMPTON'S 5 YEAR OLD'S ARE GENERALLY BETTER THAN THE ENGLAND AVERAGE.

In fact tooth decay in our close neighbors 5 year old's, MILTON KEYNES, Reading & Slough are significantly worse than the England average.

-


www.apho.org.uk/reso


urce/view.aspx?RID=9


5375
-



Here's the killer, MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated... 1.0 to 1.5 mg/f which is above recommended fluoridated levels

-

http://tinyurl.com/b


8m9wh8
Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than Southampton's.


-

Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.



Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than SHA's Average.


Southampton's Adult Obesity is Not Significantly different from SHA's Average.


-

www.apho.org.uk/reso

urce/view.aspx?RID=9

5375

-

Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l
-

http://tinyurl.com/b

8m9wh8

-



TAP (fluoridated) WATER CAN MAKE YOU FAT, SAY EXPERTS

Jul 11 2004.

By Caroline Wheeler, Sunday Mercury.

Medical experts claim that West Midlands tap water can make people FAT and could be fuelling rising obesity levels.

For the past 40 years, fluoride has been pumped into the region's tap water to help keep teeth healthy.

But now a top doctor claims that the toxin can cause worrying health side-effects including hypothyroidism, a medical dis-order affecting the thyroid gland which controls weight gain.

And he believes that children may be particularly susceptible to obesity if their mums drank fluoridated water while pregnant.

LAST YEAR, THE WEST MIDLANDS TOPPED THE UK 'FAT LIST' WITH A SHOCKING 22.5 PER CENT OF ITS POPULATION CLASSED CLINICALLY OBESE.

Dr Barry Durrant-Peatfield said: "There is no doubt that fluoride is enzyme disruptive and one thing it affects is thyroid hormones.

"As a result of this disruption, people can finish up with partial under-activity of the thyroid gland.

"Thyroid problems are becoming more common, particularly in Birmingham, and one of the reasons is because of fluoride in the water."

-


http://tinyurl.com/a

jtcvgm
Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than Southampton/England


-

Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.



Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than the England Average.


Southampton, the numbers over-65s with hip fractures are not significantly different from the England average.

-

www.apho.org.uk/reso
urce/view.aspx?RID=9
5375

-

Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l

-

http://tinyurl.com/b
8m9wh8

-



THE CRIPPLING (FLUORIDE )TOXIN YOU KNOWINGLY CONSUME EVERY DAY...

August 10, 2011

The fact that fluoride can damage your bones, often quite seriously, is no longer in dispute. Just ask the millions of people throughout the world who currently suffer from skeletal fluorosis—a crippling bone disease caused by too much fluoride and marked by irregular bone growth and calcification of the joints.


Of course, it takes a high dose of fluoride to cause crippling fluorosis.

BUT FLUORIDE ACCUMULATES OVER TIME, SO THE SEVERITY OF SKELETAL FLUOROSIS EXISTS ALONG A CONTINUUM, WITH THE EARLIER STAGES PRODUCED BY LOWER DOSES AND MARKED BY MORE SUBTLE SYMPTOMS, SUCH AS JOINT PAIN AND STIFFNESS.

In 2006, skeletal fluorosis was identified by the US National Research Council (NRC) as an adverse effect that needs to be considered by the EPA when lowering the maximum safe level of fluoride in water. While case studies in recent years have documented advanced skeletal fluorosis in the US among high-tea drinkers, the EPA has done no serious analysis of the extent to which the disease may be occurring throughout the country.

-

http://articles.merc
ola.com/sites/articl
es/archive/2011/08/1
0/fluoride-can-damag
e-your-bones.aspx
[quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide. - JMHO.. 1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments. - ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS... see page 38 to 39 figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund. • There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications. FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received. - http://www.rarercanc ers.org.uk/images/st ories/news/pdf/0611/ funding_cancer_drugs _final.pdf also. - http://www.guardian. co.uk/society/blog/2 011/jun/09/nhs-refor ms-live-blog[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer - 2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East.. Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer. - PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL. Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006. The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period. East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases. AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX. - http://www.sph.nhs.u k/sph-documents/Fina l_Head_-_Neck_Profil es_04May2010.pdf - DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS.. SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated. The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable. - http://www.namastepu blishing.co.uk/the-e ffects-of-fluoride-o n-the-thyroid-gland/[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day - UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON Press Release to all Media Outlets 13 JAN 2013 United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume . Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue . There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe . In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC. Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures. In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary. We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride. But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin. Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water . We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue. For further info contact organising members of UCS Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail .co.uk - http://hampshireagai nstfluoridation.blog spot.co.uk/2013/01/u nited-communities-of -southampton.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents - AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009. - Cairns council votes to dump fluoride.. Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM. The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents. But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue. "If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday. "The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent." Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said. Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month. - http://www.brisbanet imes.com.au/queensla nd/cairns-council-vo tes-to-dump-fluoride -20130130-2dk1a.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. - THE TEETH OF SOUTHAMPTON'S 5 YEAR OLD'S ARE GENERALLY BETTER THAN THE ENGLAND AVERAGE. In fact tooth decay in our close neighbors 5 year old's, MILTON KEYNES, Reading & Slough are significantly worse than the England average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Here's the killer, MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated... 1.0 to 1.5 mg/f which is above recommended fluoridated levels - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than Southampton's. - Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than SHA's Average. Southampton's Adult Obesity is Not Significantly different from SHA's Average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8 - TAP (fluoridated) WATER CAN MAKE YOU FAT, SAY EXPERTS Jul 11 2004. By Caroline Wheeler, Sunday Mercury. Medical experts claim that West Midlands tap water can make people FAT and could be fuelling rising obesity levels. For the past 40 years, fluoride has been pumped into the region's tap water to help keep teeth healthy. But now a top doctor claims that the toxin can cause worrying health side-effects including hypothyroidism, a medical dis-order affecting the thyroid gland which controls weight gain. And he believes that children may be particularly susceptible to obesity if their mums drank fluoridated water while pregnant. LAST YEAR, THE WEST MIDLANDS TOPPED THE UK 'FAT LIST' WITH A SHOCKING 22.5 PER CENT OF ITS POPULATION CLASSED CLINICALLY OBESE. Dr Barry Durrant-Peatfield said: "There is no doubt that fluoride is enzyme disruptive and one thing it affects is thyroid hormones. "As a result of this disruption, people can finish up with partial under-activity of the thyroid gland. "Thyroid problems are becoming more common, particularly in Birmingham, and one of the reasons is because of fluoride in the water." - http://tinyurl.com/a jtcvgm[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than Southampton/England - Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than the England Average. Southampton, the numbers over-65s with hip fractures are not significantly different from the England average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8 - THE CRIPPLING (FLUORIDE )TOXIN YOU KNOWINGLY CONSUME EVERY DAY... August 10, 2011 The fact that fluoride can damage your bones, often quite seriously, is no longer in dispute. Just ask the millions of people throughout the world who currently suffer from skeletal fluorosis—a crippling bone disease caused by too much fluoride and marked by irregular bone growth and calcification of the joints. Of course, it takes a high dose of fluoride to cause crippling fluorosis. BUT FLUORIDE ACCUMULATES OVER TIME, SO THE SEVERITY OF SKELETAL FLUOROSIS EXISTS ALONG A CONTINUUM, WITH THE EARLIER STAGES PRODUCED BY LOWER DOSES AND MARKED BY MORE SUBTLE SYMPTOMS, SUCH AS JOINT PAIN AND STIFFNESS. In 2006, skeletal fluorosis was identified by the US National Research Council (NRC) as an adverse effect that needs to be considered by the EPA when lowering the maximum safe level of fluoride in water. While case studies in recent years have documented advanced skeletal fluorosis in the US among high-tea drinkers, the EPA has done no serious analysis of the extent to which the disease may be occurring throughout the country. - http://articles.merc ola.com/sites/articl es/archive/2011/08/1 0/fluoride-can-damag e-your-bones.aspx Dan Soton

6:57pm Tue 5 Feb 13

Dan Soton says...

Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide.
-


JMHO..


1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments.

-



ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS...

see page 38 to 39

figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund.


• There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications.

FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million


Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received.


-

http://www.rarercanc







ers.org.uk/images/st







ories/news/pdf/0611/







funding_cancer_drugs







_final.pdf


also.

-

http://www.guardian.







co.uk/society/blog/2







011/jun/09/nhs-refor







ms-live-blog
Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer


-



2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East..

Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer.

-




PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL.

Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006.

The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period.

East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases.

AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX.

-

http://www.sph.nhs.u






k/sph-documents/Fina






l_Head_-_Neck_Profil






es_04May2010.pdf



-


DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS..

SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated.

The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable.

-


http://www.namastepu






blishing.co.uk/the-e






ffects-of-fluoride-o






n-the-thyroid-gland/
Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day



-

UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON

Press Release to all Media Outlets

13 JAN 2013

United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation

We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume .

Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue .

There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe .

In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC.

Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures.

In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary.

We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride.

But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin.

Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water .
We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue.

For further info contact organising members of UCS

Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail





.co.uk

-



http://hampshireagai





nstfluoridation.blog





spot.co.uk/2013/01/u





nited-communities-of





-southampton.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents


-

AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009.

-




Cairns council votes to dump fluoride..

Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM.

The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents.

But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue.

"If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday.

"The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent."

Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said.

Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month.

-


http://www.brisbanet




imes.com.au/queensla




nd/cairns-council-vo




tes-to-dump-fluoride




-20130130-2dk1a.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.


-


THE TEETH OF SOUTHAMPTON'S 5 YEAR OLD'S ARE GENERALLY BETTER THAN THE ENGLAND AVERAGE.

In fact tooth decay in our close neighbors 5 year old's, MILTON KEYNES, Reading & Slough are significantly worse than the England average.

-


www.apho.org.uk/reso



urce/view.aspx?RID=9



5375
-



Here's the killer, MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated... 1.0 to 1.5 mg/f which is above recommended fluoridated levels

-

http://tinyurl.com/b



8m9wh8
Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than Southampton's.


-

Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.



Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than SHA's Average.


Southampton's Adult Obesity is Not Significantly different from SHA's Average.


-

www.apho.org.uk/reso


urce/view.aspx?RID=9


5375

-

Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l
-

http://tinyurl.com/b


8m9wh8

-



TAP (fluoridated) WATER CAN MAKE YOU FAT, SAY EXPERTS

Jul 11 2004.

By Caroline Wheeler, Sunday Mercury.

Medical experts claim that West Midlands tap water can make people FAT and could be fuelling rising obesity levels.

For the past 40 years, fluoride has been pumped into the region's tap water to help keep teeth healthy.

But now a top doctor claims that the toxin can cause worrying health side-effects including hypothyroidism, a medical dis-order affecting the thyroid gland which controls weight gain.

And he believes that children may be particularly susceptible to obesity if their mums drank fluoridated water while pregnant.

LAST YEAR, THE WEST MIDLANDS TOPPED THE UK 'FAT LIST' WITH A SHOCKING 22.5 PER CENT OF ITS POPULATION CLASSED CLINICALLY OBESE.

Dr Barry Durrant-Peatfield said: "There is no doubt that fluoride is enzyme disruptive and one thing it affects is thyroid hormones.

"As a result of this disruption, people can finish up with partial under-activity of the thyroid gland.

"Thyroid problems are becoming more common, particularly in Birmingham, and one of the reasons is because of fluoride in the water."

-


http://tinyurl.com/a


jtcvgm
Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than Southampton/England


-

Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.



Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than the England Average.


Southampton, the numbers over-65s with hip fractures are not significantly different from the England average.

-

www.apho.org.uk/reso

urce/view.aspx?RID=9

5375

-

Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l

-

http://tinyurl.com/b

8m9wh8

-



THE CRIPPLING (FLUORIDE )TOXIN YOU KNOWINGLY CONSUME EVERY DAY...

August 10, 2011

The fact that fluoride can damage your bones, often quite seriously, is no longer in dispute. Just ask the millions of people throughout the world who currently suffer from skeletal fluorosis—a crippling bone disease caused by too much fluoride and marked by irregular bone growth and calcification of the joints.


Of course, it takes a high dose of fluoride to cause crippling fluorosis.

BUT FLUORIDE ACCUMULATES OVER TIME, SO THE SEVERITY OF SKELETAL FLUOROSIS EXISTS ALONG A CONTINUUM, WITH THE EARLIER STAGES PRODUCED BY LOWER DOSES AND MARKED BY MORE SUBTLE SYMPTOMS, SUCH AS JOINT PAIN AND STIFFNESS.

In 2006, skeletal fluorosis was identified by the US National Research Council (NRC) as an adverse effect that needs to be considered by the EPA when lowering the maximum safe level of fluoride in water. While case studies in recent years have documented advanced skeletal fluorosis in the US among high-tea drinkers, the EPA has done no serious analysis of the extent to which the disease may be occurring throughout the country.

-

http://articles.merc

ola.com/sites/articl

es/archive/2011/08/1

0/fluoride-can-damag

e-your-bones.aspx
Fluoridation X-Files.. 60% of all U.S. Children have Dental Fluorosis.. 3% to 4% expected in Southampton?



-

SHA's OWN RESEARCH REVIEW.

The Medical Research Council, when reviewing the York report and taking account of other studies, concluded that a more realistic figure for fluorosis in fluoridated areas within the UK might be between 3% and 4%.

http://tinyurl.com/b
6ewake

-



FLUORIDATION IS NOTHING TO CELEBRATE.

NEW YORK, Jan. 23, 2013.

Fluoride overexposure is a new and GROWING EPIDEMIC AFFLICTING UP TO 60% OF U.S. ADOLESCENTS WITH DENTAL FLUOROSIS (white spotted, yellow, brown and/or pitted teeth). Early fluoridationists expected that no more than 10% of children would develop mild fluorosis. CDC reports that Black and Mexican-American children suffer significantly higher rates of the more severe forms of dental fluorosis.

Even fluoride varnish, containing 26,600 ppm fluoride, was never safety-tested but is applied to teeth of babies as young as 6-months-old which "leads to a significant increase in urine fluoride."


-

http://www.prnewswir
e.com/news-releases/
fluoridation-is-noth
ing-to-celebrate-188
045531.html
[quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide. - JMHO.. 1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments. - ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS... see page 38 to 39 figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund. • There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications. FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received. - http://www.rarercanc ers.org.uk/images/st ories/news/pdf/0611/ funding_cancer_drugs _final.pdf also. - http://www.guardian. co.uk/society/blog/2 011/jun/09/nhs-refor ms-live-blog[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer - 2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East.. Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer. - PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL. Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006. The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period. East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases. AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX. - http://www.sph.nhs.u k/sph-documents/Fina l_Head_-_Neck_Profil es_04May2010.pdf - DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS.. SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated. The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable. - http://www.namastepu blishing.co.uk/the-e ffects-of-fluoride-o n-the-thyroid-gland/[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day - UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON Press Release to all Media Outlets 13 JAN 2013 United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume . Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue . There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe . In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC. Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures. In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary. We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride. But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin. Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water . We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue. For further info contact organising members of UCS Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail .co.uk - http://hampshireagai nstfluoridation.blog spot.co.uk/2013/01/u nited-communities-of -southampton.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents - AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009. - Cairns council votes to dump fluoride.. Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM. The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents. But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue. "If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday. "The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent." Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said. Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month. - http://www.brisbanet imes.com.au/queensla nd/cairns-council-vo tes-to-dump-fluoride -20130130-2dk1a.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. - THE TEETH OF SOUTHAMPTON'S 5 YEAR OLD'S ARE GENERALLY BETTER THAN THE ENGLAND AVERAGE. In fact tooth decay in our close neighbors 5 year old's, MILTON KEYNES, Reading & Slough are significantly worse than the England average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Here's the killer, MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated... 1.0 to 1.5 mg/f which is above recommended fluoridated levels - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than Southampton's. - Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than SHA's Average. Southampton's Adult Obesity is Not Significantly different from SHA's Average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8 - TAP (fluoridated) WATER CAN MAKE YOU FAT, SAY EXPERTS Jul 11 2004. By Caroline Wheeler, Sunday Mercury. Medical experts claim that West Midlands tap water can make people FAT and could be fuelling rising obesity levels. For the past 40 years, fluoride has been pumped into the region's tap water to help keep teeth healthy. But now a top doctor claims that the toxin can cause worrying health side-effects including hypothyroidism, a medical dis-order affecting the thyroid gland which controls weight gain. And he believes that children may be particularly susceptible to obesity if their mums drank fluoridated water while pregnant. LAST YEAR, THE WEST MIDLANDS TOPPED THE UK 'FAT LIST' WITH A SHOCKING 22.5 PER CENT OF ITS POPULATION CLASSED CLINICALLY OBESE. Dr Barry Durrant-Peatfield said: "There is no doubt that fluoride is enzyme disruptive and one thing it affects is thyroid hormones. "As a result of this disruption, people can finish up with partial under-activity of the thyroid gland. "Thyroid problems are becoming more common, particularly in Birmingham, and one of the reasons is because of fluoride in the water." - http://tinyurl.com/a jtcvgm[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than Southampton/England - Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than the England Average. Southampton, the numbers over-65s with hip fractures are not significantly different from the England average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8 - THE CRIPPLING (FLUORIDE )TOXIN YOU KNOWINGLY CONSUME EVERY DAY... August 10, 2011 The fact that fluoride can damage your bones, often quite seriously, is no longer in dispute. Just ask the millions of people throughout the world who currently suffer from skeletal fluorosis—a crippling bone disease caused by too much fluoride and marked by irregular bone growth and calcification of the joints. Of course, it takes a high dose of fluoride to cause crippling fluorosis. BUT FLUORIDE ACCUMULATES OVER TIME, SO THE SEVERITY OF SKELETAL FLUOROSIS EXISTS ALONG A CONTINUUM, WITH THE EARLIER STAGES PRODUCED BY LOWER DOSES AND MARKED BY MORE SUBTLE SYMPTOMS, SUCH AS JOINT PAIN AND STIFFNESS. In 2006, skeletal fluorosis was identified by the US National Research Council (NRC) as an adverse effect that needs to be considered by the EPA when lowering the maximum safe level of fluoride in water. While case studies in recent years have documented advanced skeletal fluorosis in the US among high-tea drinkers, the EPA has done no serious analysis of the extent to which the disease may be occurring throughout the country. - http://articles.merc ola.com/sites/articl es/archive/2011/08/1 0/fluoride-can-damag e-your-bones.aspx[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. 60% of all U.S. Children have Dental Fluorosis.. 3% to 4% expected in Southampton? - SHA's OWN RESEARCH REVIEW. The Medical Research Council, when reviewing the York report and taking account of other studies, concluded that a more realistic figure for fluorosis in fluoridated areas within the UK might be between 3% and 4%. http://tinyurl.com/b 6ewake - FLUORIDATION IS NOTHING TO CELEBRATE. NEW YORK, Jan. 23, 2013. Fluoride overexposure is a new and GROWING EPIDEMIC AFFLICTING UP TO 60% OF U.S. ADOLESCENTS WITH DENTAL FLUOROSIS (white spotted, yellow, brown and/or pitted teeth). Early fluoridationists expected that no more than 10% of children would develop mild fluorosis. CDC reports that Black and Mexican-American children suffer significantly higher rates of the more severe forms of dental fluorosis. Even fluoride varnish, containing 26,600 ppm fluoride, was never safety-tested but is applied to teeth of babies as young as 6-months-old which "leads to a significant increase in urine fluoride." - http://www.prnewswir e.com/news-releases/ fluoridation-is-noth ing-to-celebrate-188 045531.html Dan Soton

3:48am Thu 7 Feb 13

Dan Soton says...

Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Dan Soton wrote:
Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide.
-


JMHO..


1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments.

-



ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS...

see page 38 to 39

figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund.


• There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications.

FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million


Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received.


-

http://www.rarercanc








ers.org.uk/images/st








ories/news/pdf/0611/








funding_cancer_drugs








_final.pdf


also.

-

http://www.guardian.








co.uk/society/blog/2








011/jun/09/nhs-refor








ms-live-blog
Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer


-



2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East..

Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer.

-




PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL.

Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006.

The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period.

East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases.

AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX.

-

http://www.sph.nhs.u







k/sph-documents/Fina







l_Head_-_Neck_Profil







es_04May2010.pdf



-


DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS..

SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated.

The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable.

-


http://www.namastepu







blishing.co.uk/the-e







ffects-of-fluoride-o







n-the-thyroid-gland/
Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day



-

UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON

Press Release to all Media Outlets

13 JAN 2013

United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation

We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume .

Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue .

There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe .

In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC.

Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures.

In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary.

We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride.

But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin.

Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water .
We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue.

For further info contact organising members of UCS

Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail






.co.uk

-



http://hampshireagai






nstfluoridation.blog






spot.co.uk/2013/01/u






nited-communities-of






-southampton.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents


-

AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009.

-




Cairns council votes to dump fluoride..

Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM.

The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents.

But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue.

"If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday.

"The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent."

Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said.

Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month.

-


http://www.brisbanet





imes.com.au/queensla





nd/cairns-council-vo





tes-to-dump-fluoride





-20130130-2dk1a.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.


-


THE TEETH OF SOUTHAMPTON'S 5 YEAR OLD'S ARE GENERALLY BETTER THAN THE ENGLAND AVERAGE.

In fact tooth decay in our close neighbors 5 year old's, MILTON KEYNES, Reading & Slough are significantly worse than the England average.

-


www.apho.org.uk/reso




urce/view.aspx?RID=9




5375
-



Here's the killer, MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated... 1.0 to 1.5 mg/f which is above recommended fluoridated levels

-

http://tinyurl.com/b




8m9wh8
Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than Southampton's.


-

Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.



Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than SHA's Average.


Southampton's Adult Obesity is Not Significantly different from SHA's Average.


-

www.apho.org.uk/reso



urce/view.aspx?RID=9



5375

-

Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l
-

http://tinyurl.com/b



8m9wh8

-



TAP (fluoridated) WATER CAN MAKE YOU FAT, SAY EXPERTS

Jul 11 2004.

By Caroline Wheeler, Sunday Mercury.

Medical experts claim that West Midlands tap water can make people FAT and could be fuelling rising obesity levels.

For the past 40 years, fluoride has been pumped into the region's tap water to help keep teeth healthy.

But now a top doctor claims that the toxin can cause worrying health side-effects including hypothyroidism, a medical dis-order affecting the thyroid gland which controls weight gain.

And he believes that children may be particularly susceptible to obesity if their mums drank fluoridated water while pregnant.

LAST YEAR, THE WEST MIDLANDS TOPPED THE UK 'FAT LIST' WITH A SHOCKING 22.5 PER CENT OF ITS POPULATION CLASSED CLINICALLY OBESE.

Dr Barry Durrant-Peatfield said: "There is no doubt that fluoride is enzyme disruptive and one thing it affects is thyroid hormones.

"As a result of this disruption, people can finish up with partial under-activity of the thyroid gland.

"Thyroid problems are becoming more common, particularly in Birmingham, and one of the reasons is because of fluoride in the water."

-


http://tinyurl.com/a



jtcvgm
Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than Southampton/England


-

Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators.



Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than the England Average.


Southampton, the numbers over-65s with hip fractures are not significantly different from the England average.

-

www.apho.org.uk/reso


urce/view.aspx?RID=9


5375

-

Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l

-

http://tinyurl.com/b


8m9wh8

-



THE CRIPPLING (FLUORIDE )TOXIN YOU KNOWINGLY CONSUME EVERY DAY...

August 10, 2011

The fact that fluoride can damage your bones, often quite seriously, is no longer in dispute. Just ask the millions of people throughout the world who currently suffer from skeletal fluorosis—a crippling bone disease caused by too much fluoride and marked by irregular bone growth and calcification of the joints.


Of course, it takes a high dose of fluoride to cause crippling fluorosis.

BUT FLUORIDE ACCUMULATES OVER TIME, SO THE SEVERITY OF SKELETAL FLUOROSIS EXISTS ALONG A CONTINUUM, WITH THE EARLIER STAGES PRODUCED BY LOWER DOSES AND MARKED BY MORE SUBTLE SYMPTOMS, SUCH AS JOINT PAIN AND STIFFNESS.

In 2006, skeletal fluorosis was identified by the US National Research Council (NRC) as an adverse effect that needs to be considered by the EPA when lowering the maximum safe level of fluoride in water. While case studies in recent years have documented advanced skeletal fluorosis in the US among high-tea drinkers, the EPA has done no serious analysis of the extent to which the disease may be occurring throughout the country.

-

http://articles.merc


ola.com/sites/articl


es/archive/2011/08/1


0/fluoride-can-damag


e-your-bones.aspx
Fluoridation X-Files.. 60% of all U.S. Children have Dental Fluorosis.. 3% to 4% expected in Southampton?



-

SHA's OWN RESEARCH REVIEW.

The Medical Research Council, when reviewing the York report and taking account of other studies, concluded that a more realistic figure for fluorosis in fluoridated areas within the UK might be between 3% and 4%.

http://tinyurl.com/b

6ewake

-



FLUORIDATION IS NOTHING TO CELEBRATE.

NEW YORK, Jan. 23, 2013.

Fluoride overexposure is a new and GROWING EPIDEMIC AFFLICTING UP TO 60% OF U.S. ADOLESCENTS WITH DENTAL FLUOROSIS (white spotted, yellow, brown and/or pitted teeth). Early fluoridationists expected that no more than 10% of children would develop mild fluorosis. CDC reports that Black and Mexican-American children suffer significantly higher rates of the more severe forms of dental fluorosis.

Even fluoride varnish, containing 26,600 ppm fluoride, was never safety-tested but is applied to teeth of babies as young as 6-months-old which "leads to a significant increase in urine fluoride."


-

http://www.prnewswir

e.com/news-releases/

fluoridation-is-noth

ing-to-celebrate-188

045531.html
Fluoridation X-Files.. Criminal SHA Bosses to be held responsible for deaths of relatives


-

A date which will live in infamy.. 11 Feb 2011, SHA defeated a High Court legal challenge designed to stop Southampton's Fluoridation.


-


FAMILIES CALL FOR BOSSES TO BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS OF RELATIVES.

JONATHAN BROWN WEDNESDAY 06 FEBRUARY 2013.

NHS's darkest day: Five more hospitals under investigation for neglect as report blames 'failings at every level' for 1,200 deaths at Stafford Hospital.

The families of patients who died after receiving substandard care at Stafford Hospital have demanded that senior managers – including the current head of the NHS – be held responsible for the deaths of their loved ones.

Families called for the resignation of Sir David Nicholson, NHS chief executive, who was head of Shropshire and Staffordshire Strategic Health Authority which was responsible for Mid Staffs NHS Trust at the time of the scandal. Some also demanded the head of Peter Carter, general secretary of the Royal College of Nursing, after the report’s damning verdict on nursing standards.

“The point about criminal prosecution, which I think most people feel, is that perhaps more than a thousand people died because of poor care. No one has been brought to book and that feels wrong,” he told Sky News.


Sir David Nicholson.

Former chief executive of West Midlands Strategic Health Authority and the Shropshire and Staffordshire Strategic Health Authority. He was responsible for supervising Mid Staffs NHS Trust from 2005 to 2006. Yesterday he repeated his apology for the poor care experienced by patients, adding: “But apologies are not enough – we need action, we need to make things happen.”

Cynthia Bower Former chief executive of West Midlands Strategic Health Authority.

The report concluded that Ms Bower’s priorities were directed at finance and restructuring rather than care. “The protection of patients does not figure expressly at all in her priorities, although she would doubtless argue that such a concept underlay all of them,” it found.

Martin Yeates Former chief executive of Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust.

Salary: £180,000.

The report said he failed to appreciate the seriousness of the Trust’s problems and the significance of the mortality figures. "HE WAS THAT MOST DANGEROUS OF LEADERS: ONE WHO WAS PERSUASIVE BUT INEFFECTIVE," IT SAID. RECEIVED £400,000 PAY-OFF AND £1M PENSION POT.

-

http://tinyurl.com/b
4y69cx
[quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dan Soton[/bold] wrote: Fluoridation X-Files.. North-South Cancer Treatment Divide. - JMHO.. 1) SHA covering up high Cancer death statistics in the Fluoridated Midlands/North East by refusing Cancer suffers in Hampshire, Southampton life saving Cancer treatments. - ORIGINAL SOURCE DOCUMENT, FUNDING CANCER DRUGS... see page 38 to 39 figure 20 reveals a North-South Divide in the approval rates for applications to the cancer drugs fund. • There appears to be a North-South divide, with SHA's in the South of England approving a lower proportion of applications. FOR EXAMPLE: NHS South Central approved approximately 75% of applications , this is despite the fact that Strategic Health Authorities (SHAs) had a combined Cancer Drugs Fund underspend of £22.5 million Whereas SHA's North East approved every application received. - http://www.rarercanc ers.org.uk/images/st ories/news/pdf/0611/ funding_cancer_drugs _final.pdf also. - http://www.guardian. co.uk/society/blog/2 011/jun/09/nhs-refor ms-live-blog[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Thyroid Cancer - 2) We are told by SHA that Fluoride does not raise the risk of Cancer, yet Thyroid Cancer has more than doubled in the Fluoridated Midlands and North East.. Birmingham Solihull, Arden has the UKs Highest Incidence of Thyroid Cancer. - PROFILE OF HEAD AND NECK CANCERS IN ENGLAND: INCIDENCE, MORTALITY AND SURVIVAL. Trends in the incidence of thyroid gland cancer in England, 1990–2006. The incidence of thyroid cancer has nearly doubled • in the study period. East Midland and North of England, the largest Cancer Networks, have as expected the greatest total number of cases. AGE STANDARDISED RATES (PER 100,000 POPULATION) VARY FROM 3.39 IN ARDEN, TO 1.97 IN SUSSEX. - http://www.sph.nhs.u k/sph-documents/Fina l_Head_-_Neck_Profil es_04May2010.pdf - DR DURRANT-PEATFIELD MEDICAL ADVISOR TO THYROID UK SAYS.. SUMMARY: Fluorides are highly damaging to the Thyroid Gland, Fluorides are mutagenic, That is, they can cause the uncontrolled proliferation of cells we call cancer. This applies to cancer anywhere in the body, A report in 1955 in the New England Journal of Medicine showed a 400% increase in cancer of the thyroid in San Francisco during the period their water was fluoridated. The extreme sensitivity of the very young (foetus/baby) to fluoride toxicity makes Fluoridation unacceptable. - http://www.namastepu blishing.co.uk/the-e ffects-of-fluoride-o n-the-thyroid-gland/[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Birmingham Dentists carry out dental extractions on 15 children per day - UNITED COMMUNITIES OF SOUTHAMPTON Press Release to all Media Outlets 13 JAN 2013 United Communities of Southampton Statement on fluoridation We firmly believe that it is our GOD given right, and responsibility, to choose what medications and food we consume . Whilst we understand the plight of those suffering from tooth decay; and our hearts go out to all those affected .We most firmly do NOT support the addition of hydrofluosilicic acid commonly referred to as fluoride to our water to address this issue . There is no good science to show that fluoridation is effective in reducing tooth decay, nor is there good evidence to prove that it is safe . In fact, we have solid PROOF that fluoridating the water is both ineffective and dangerous - to the health of humans and to Nature too . IN BIRMINGHAM THE WATER HAS BEEN FLUORIDATED FOR SOME TIME; DESPITE THIS, BIRMINGHAM IS STILL CARRYING OUT DENTAL EXTRACTIONS ON 15 CHILDREN PER DAY UNDER GENERAL ANAESTHETIC. Dr Dean Burke , chief scientist at the National Cancer Institute (USA) , stated under oath at a Congressional hearing 'Nothing causes or makes cancer explode faster in the body than fluoride.'Dr Burke calculated that adding fluoride to the water would increase the cancer rate by at least 10%. No-one has challenged his figures. In 2007 the American Dental Association warned parents not to make up formula milk with fluoridated water. In Southampton the reckless SHA has deemed any such warning as unnecessary. We have many , many concerns about the safety of ingesting an accumulative poison ; there are too many to list here .You need to understand that very few medical or dental 'professionals' are fully aware of the toxicity of fluoride. But fundamentally, the enforced medication by means of fluoridation is absolutely against our religious beliefs and is an insult to our Freedom. We feel most strongly that this is breaking the Law of the land. You do NOT have our consent to force our community to consume this awful toxin. Furthermore we have PROVEN methods that will safely and significantly reduce tooth decay , if not entirely eradicate this disease. We would very much like to share these proven measures with our communities and health authorities alike. Therefore we most strongly urge you to 'cease and desist' with any plans to fluoridate our drinking water . We urge you to meet with us in the near future so that we may work together to resolve this issue. For further info contact organising members of UCS Dr Zac Cox (Dentist), Mr Harjap Singh, Mr Ziarat Hussain, Mr Arshad Sharif, Mr Prithipal Singh Roath – p.singhroath@hotmail .co.uk - http://hampshireagai nstfluoridation.blog spot.co.uk/2013/01/u nited-communities-of -southampton.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Cairns Council Votes To Dump Fluoride, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents - AFAIK: Australia / Cairns has been Fluoridated since 2009. - Cairns council votes to dump fluoride.. Date.January 30, 2013 - 12:14PM. The Cairns City Council will remove fluoride from its water supply, saying it amounts to the "involuntary medication" of residents. But the council says it won't be doing anything to determine if there's broad community support for fluoridation to continue. "If people want to have access to fluoride, they need to take that up with their dentists," a council spokeswoman said on Wednesday. "The decision has been made ... it shouldn't be forced on people without consent." Fluoridation currently cost the council about $300,000 in chemicals, staffing, testing, electricity and infrastructure, he said. Fluoride will stop being added to the Cairns water supply from the middle of next month. - http://www.brisbanet imes.com.au/queensla nd/cairns-council-vo tes-to-dump-fluoride -20130130-2dk1a.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. - THE TEETH OF SOUTHAMPTON'S 5 YEAR OLD'S ARE GENERALLY BETTER THAN THE ENGLAND AVERAGE. In fact tooth decay in our close neighbors 5 year old's, MILTON KEYNES, Reading & Slough are significantly worse than the England average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Here's the killer, MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated... 1.0 to 1.5 mg/f which is above recommended fluoridated levels - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than Southampton's. - Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES Adult Obesity is Significantly Worse than SHA's Average. Southampton's Adult Obesity is Not Significantly different from SHA's Average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8 - TAP (fluoridated) WATER CAN MAKE YOU FAT, SAY EXPERTS Jul 11 2004. By Caroline Wheeler, Sunday Mercury. Medical experts claim that West Midlands tap water can make people FAT and could be fuelling rising obesity levels. For the past 40 years, fluoride has been pumped into the region's tap water to help keep teeth healthy. But now a top doctor claims that the toxin can cause worrying health side-effects including hypothyroidism, a medical dis-order affecting the thyroid gland which controls weight gain. And he believes that children may be particularly susceptible to obesity if their mums drank fluoridated water while pregnant. LAST YEAR, THE WEST MIDLANDS TOPPED THE UK 'FAT LIST' WITH A SHOCKING 22.5 PER CENT OF ITS POPULATION CLASSED CLINICALLY OBESE. Dr Barry Durrant-Peatfield said: "There is no doubt that fluoride is enzyme disruptive and one thing it affects is thyroid hormones. "As a result of this disruption, people can finish up with partial under-activity of the thyroid gland. "Thyroid problems are becoming more common, particularly in Birmingham, and one of the reasons is because of fluoride in the water." - http://tinyurl.com/a jtcvgm[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than Southampton/England - Going by SHA's own 2010 Indicators. Naturally Fluoridated MILTON KEYNES has Significantly More Hip fractures in the over-65s than the England Average. Southampton, the numbers over-65s with hip fractures are not significantly different from the England average. - www.apho.org.uk/reso urce/view.aspx?RID=9 5375 - Please note MILTON KEYNES is naturally fluoridated at 1.0 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l - http://tinyurl.com/b 8m9wh8 - THE CRIPPLING (FLUORIDE )TOXIN YOU KNOWINGLY CONSUME EVERY DAY... August 10, 2011 The fact that fluoride can damage your bones, often quite seriously, is no longer in dispute. Just ask the millions of people throughout the world who currently suffer from skeletal fluorosis—a crippling bone disease caused by too much fluoride and marked by irregular bone growth and calcification of the joints. Of course, it takes a high dose of fluoride to cause crippling fluorosis. BUT FLUORIDE ACCUMULATES OVER TIME, SO THE SEVERITY OF SKELETAL FLUOROSIS EXISTS ALONG A CONTINUUM, WITH THE EARLIER STAGES PRODUCED BY LOWER DOSES AND MARKED BY MORE SUBTLE SYMPTOMS, SUCH AS JOINT PAIN AND STIFFNESS. In 2006, skeletal fluorosis was identified by the US National Research Council (NRC) as an adverse effect that needs to be considered by the EPA when lowering the maximum safe level of fluoride in water. While case studies in recent years have documented advanced skeletal fluorosis in the US among high-tea drinkers, the EPA has done no serious analysis of the extent to which the disease may be occurring throughout the country. - http://articles.merc ola.com/sites/articl es/archive/2011/08/1 0/fluoride-can-damag e-your-bones.aspx[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. 60% of all U.S. Children have Dental Fluorosis.. 3% to 4% expected in Southampton? - SHA's OWN RESEARCH REVIEW. The Medical Research Council, when reviewing the York report and taking account of other studies, concluded that a more realistic figure for fluorosis in fluoridated areas within the UK might be between 3% and 4%. http://tinyurl.com/b 6ewake - FLUORIDATION IS NOTHING TO CELEBRATE. NEW YORK, Jan. 23, 2013. Fluoride overexposure is a new and GROWING EPIDEMIC AFFLICTING UP TO 60% OF U.S. ADOLESCENTS WITH DENTAL FLUOROSIS (white spotted, yellow, brown and/or pitted teeth). Early fluoridationists expected that no more than 10% of children would develop mild fluorosis. CDC reports that Black and Mexican-American children suffer significantly higher rates of the more severe forms of dental fluorosis. Even fluoride varnish, containing 26,600 ppm fluoride, was never safety-tested but is applied to teeth of babies as young as 6-months-old which "leads to a significant increase in urine fluoride." - http://www.prnewswir e.com/news-releases/ fluoridation-is-noth ing-to-celebrate-188 045531.html[/p][/quote]Fluoridation X-Files.. Criminal SHA Bosses to be held responsible for deaths of relatives - A date which will live in infamy.. 11 Feb 2011, SHA defeated a High Court legal challenge designed to stop Southampton's Fluoridation. - FAMILIES CALL FOR BOSSES TO BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS OF RELATIVES. JONATHAN BROWN WEDNESDAY 06 FEBRUARY 2013. NHS's darkest day: Five more hospitals under investigation for neglect as report blames 'failings at every level' for 1,200 deaths at Stafford Hospital. The families of patients who died after receiving substandard care at Stafford Hospital have demanded that senior managers – including the current head of the NHS – be held responsible for the deaths of their loved ones. Families called for the resignation of Sir David Nicholson, NHS chief executive, who was head of Shropshire and Staffordshire Strategic Health Authority which was responsible for Mid Staffs NHS Trust at the time of the scandal. Some also demanded the head of Peter Carter, general secretary of the Royal College of Nursing, after the report’s damning verdict on nursing standards. “The point about criminal prosecution, which I think most people feel, is that perhaps more than a thousand people died because of poor care. No one has been brought to book and that feels wrong,” he told Sky News. Sir David Nicholson. Former chief executive of West Midlands Strategic Health Authority and the Shropshire and Staffordshire Strategic Health Authority. He was responsible for supervising Mid Staffs NHS Trust from 2005 to 2006. Yesterday he repeated his apology for the poor care experienced by patients, adding: “But apologies are not enough – we need action, we need to make things happen.” Cynthia Bower Former chief executive of West Midlands Strategic Health Authority. The report concluded that Ms Bower’s priorities were directed at finance and restructuring rather than care. “The protection of patients does not figure expressly at all in her priorities, although she would doubtless argue that such a concept underlay all of them,” it found. Martin Yeates Former chief executive of Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust. Salary: £180,000. The report said he failed to appreciate the seriousness of the Trust’s problems and the significance of the mortality figures. "HE WAS THAT MOST DANGEROUS OF LEADERS: ONE WHO WAS PERSUASIVE BUT INEFFECTIVE," IT SAID. RECEIVED £400,000 PAY-OFF AND £1M PENSION POT. - http://tinyurl.com/b 4y69cx Dan Soton

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