McMenemy: Hillsborough - a sight I will never forget (From Daily Echo)

for the first time words fail me
RIP 96

Something has always troubled meabout this tragedy and this report has not helped me out.

Hillsborough Football ground was not fit to stage such big football match - accepted

All the people who died or where injured where already in the ground watching the start of the match and totally innocent – OK

The police lost control of the crowds and afterwards tried to cover it up – Disgusting thing to happen.

But now please bear with me. Shall we say that the area of the ground effected holds 5,000 people and so 5,000 tickets were sold. My question now is where did all the hundreds of people still trying to get in after the kick off come from and what where they doing there?

My lasting image of the day in question is a crowd of people pushing and shoving trying to get into the ground because the match had already kicked off and a ranking police officer, on horse back, on the verge of loosing control of the situation, or maybe he already had lost control.

Doesn’t this mob, I no not which team they supported, also bear some of the responsibility for what followed. It’s like saying a riot took place and all the mayhem that followed is the police’s fault for not controlling it

sburman wrote:
Something has always troubled meabout this tragedy and this report has not helped me out.

Hillsborough Football ground was not fit to stage such big football match - accepted

All the people who died or where injured where already in the ground watching the start of the match and totally innocent – OK

The police lost control of the crowds and afterwards tried to cover it up – Disgusting thing to happen.

But now please bear with me. Shall we say that the area of the ground effected holds 5,000 people and so 5,000 tickets were sold. My question now is where did all the hundreds of people still trying to get in after the kick off come from and what where they doing there?

My lasting image of the day in question is a crowd of people pushing and shoving trying to get into the ground because the match had already kicked off and a ranking police officer, on horse back, on the verge of loosing control of the situation, or maybe he already had lost control.

Doesn’t this mob, I no not which team they supported, also bear some of the responsibility for what followed. It’s like saying a riot took place and all the mayhem that followed is the police’s fault for not controlling it

That's right blame the mob. Faceless, they can't argue back. The thing is is was not unusual in those days for fans to turn up without tickets in the hope of getting one from a tout or being let in. Crowns were treated like animals and herded and squeezed into pens. It was a totally different environment to today. Who out there can remember the days when the Dell was packed to the rafters and standing shoulder to shoulder with your fellow fans packed so tightly that sometimes your feet didn't touch the floor? Demand for games like this one was massive and hugely exceeded the capacity of the grounds chosen to host them. It was well known that people would turn up without tickets. The fact is the risk of a tradegy like Hillsborough was not appreciated or fully understood by those responsible for public safety or fans. Blaming the 'mob' is not the issue and never has been the answer. Colossal mistakes were made including the complacency of the FA in not even checking to see if there was a current safety certificate for the ground. Fans in were treated awfully by clubs and the authorities. Sure there was a hooligan element but by far the majority were decent law abiding citizens. Apportioning blame to the 'mob' is an easy thing to do but it really doesn't help.

If you were that curious why didn’t you read the Taylor Reports? Within is all the facts you require to fill the considerable gaps in your knowledge of the tragedy.
.
As luck would have it, the latest, independent, report is on line and can be downloaded at no cost whatsoever. It’s only 395 pages, so I look forward to reading your answers to your own questions on this thread before the weekend is out.
. http://hillsborough.
independent.gov.uk/r
epository/report/HIP
_report.pdf

Cpt. Kirk's illegitimate love child wrote:

sburman wrote:
Something has always troubled meabout this tragedy and this report has not helped me out.

Hillsborough Football ground was not fit to stage such big football match - accepted

All the people who died or where injured where already in the ground watching the start of the match and totally innocent – OK

The police lost control of the crowds and afterwards tried to cover it up – Disgusting thing to happen.

But now please bear with me. Shall we say that the area of the ground effected holds 5,000 people and so 5,000 tickets were sold. My question now is where did all the hundreds of people still trying to get in after the kick off come from and what where they doing there?

My lasting image of the day in question is a crowd of people pushing and shoving trying to get into the ground because the match had already kicked off and a ranking police officer, on horse back, on the verge of loosing control of the situation, or maybe he already had lost control.

Doesn’t this mob, I no not which team they supported, also bear some of the responsibility for what followed. It’s like saying a riot took place and all the mayhem that followed is the police’s fault for not controlling it

That's right blame the mob. Faceless, they can't argue back. The thing is is was not unusual in those days for fans to turn up without tickets in the hope of getting one from a tout or being let in. Crowns were treated like animals and herded and squeezed into pens. It was a totally different environment to today. Who out there can remember the days when the Dell was packed to the rafters and standing shoulder to shoulder with your fellow fans packed so tightly that sometimes your feet didn't touch the floor? Demand for games like this one was massive and hugely exceeded the capacity of the grounds chosen to host them. It was well known that people would turn up without tickets. The fact is the risk of a tradegy like Hillsborough was not appreciated or fully understood by those responsible for public safety or fans. Blaming the 'mob' is not the issue and never has been the answer. Colossal mistakes were made including the complacency of the FA in not even checking to see if there was a current safety certificate for the ground. Fans in were treated awfully by clubs and the authorities. Sure there was a hooligan element but by far the majority were decent law abiding citizens. Apportioning blame to the 'mob' is an easy thing to do but it really doesn't help.

Terrible mistakes were made, by lots of people who should and must be brought to account. The worst thing is people lying and then living with themselves. They know who they are, and justice will be done.

Like alot of tragedies, everyone is wise after the event, hindsight being always 20/20 vision. For me, the danger now is that people are making 2012 "elf and safety" judgments on things that happened nearly a quarter of a Century ago. If my parents had known that I was up in that Chocolate Box in the Milton Road...

I know not whether the people outside the ground had tickets or not and nor does anybody else for sure and, yes, the authorities made horrendous mistakes in controlling them and then tried to sanitise the reports but mobs do have faces, each and every one of them, and each and every one of them have to consider their part in this tragedy.

Whenever something tragic takes place it always seems to be the fault of some authoritve body or an another. Important lessons were learnt from Hillsborough, as they are from other tragedies but my point is these tragedies the authorities were reacting to a situation and sometimes get it badly wrong

I think what most people understand 'now' is that this could have happened to any football supporter from any team.

It was normal in those days to turn up looking for tickets, look how it's changed since then. It took 96 peoples lives to have football supporters treated like humans and not like cattle.

Just a year earlier, there was a similar crushing incident in which it was a miracle that no-one was killed. The ground wasn't fit to hold semi-finals or any kind of top flight match - for years before.

The messages of support to the families of the 96 who died have come from far and wide, from the bitterest rivals and from all corners of the globe.

It's probably one of the saddest episodes in recent memory.

A shocking, appalling cover-up in which the victims families had to fight the establishment for 23 years to clear their dead relative's names, slandered in the press, the butt of jokes and taunts on the terraces, fight with money out of their own pockets, while the perpetrators received all the financial help and compensation they required to defend themselves.

And still today, not one of them have lost a day's pay.

AlwynM wrote:
I think what most people understand 'now' is that this could have happened to any football supporter from any team.

It was normal in those days to turn up looking for tickets, look how it's changed since then. It took 96 peoples lives to have football supporters treated like humans and not like cattle.

Just a year earlier, there was a similar crushing incident in which it was a miracle that no-one was killed. The ground wasn't fit to hold semi-finals or any kind of top flight match - for years before.

The messages of support to the families of the 96 who died have come from far and wide, from the bitterest rivals and from all corners of the globe.

It's probably one of the saddest episodes in recent memory.

A shocking, appalling cover-up in which the victims families had to fight the establishment for 23 years to clear their dead relative's names, slandered in the press, the butt of jokes and taunts on the terraces, fight with money out of their own pockets, while the perpetrators received all the financial help and compensation they required to defend themselves.

And still today, not one of them have lost a day's pay.

Some very powerful points made by you all.
My instant visual memory that haunts me to this day was the advertising boards being used as stretchers and the full implications later of what that really meant.
The question that I always had is why they allocated Liverpool to the smaller end terrace, but I guess that is just papering over the cracks of an accident that was always going to happen sometime.

Why has this resolution taken 23 years to come into the public arena, that is in defendable?
Justice must be served and the culpable punished accordingly.

As with the current trend from the Government, the report seems to put the blame firmly at the door of the Police.

The people that don't seem to be getting too much blame if the FA and Sheffield Wednesday.

And when looking at the 9 people on the panel, how independent are they. The chair clearly has his links with Liverpool, and if the report had said that it was the fans fault, would he have been able to still work for the Church at Liverpool?

Surely more blame must be on Sheffield Wednesday for having a ground with sub standard crash barriers, poor signage, turnstiles that weren't working correctly. Not sure if it's just that the press are not reporting on this if they have got some of the blame.

Did the FA put pressure on the Police that the kick off had to be at 3pm?

There are people also calling for the current Chief Constable to stand down from SYP. Why, he had nothing to do with the Policing of the event, and if he had 23 yrs ago, he would have just been a PC or Sgt who was following orders from higher ranking Officers.
Policing have changed massively in the last 23 yrs and the public need to understand this aswell.

scprof wrote:
As with the current trend from the Government, the report seems to put the blame firmly at the door of the Police.

The people that don't seem to be getting too much blame if the FA and Sheffield Wednesday.

And when looking at the 9 people on the panel, how independent are they. The chair clearly has his links with Liverpool, and if the report had said that it was the fans fault, would he have been able to still work for the Church at Liverpool?

Surely more blame must be on Sheffield Wednesday for having a ground with sub standard crash barriers, poor signage, turnstiles that weren't working correctly. Not sure if it's just that the press are not reporting on this if they have got some of the blame.

Did the FA put pressure on the Police that the kick off had to be at 3pm?

There are people also calling for the current Chief Constable to stand down from SYP. Why, he had nothing to do with the Policing of the event, and if he had 23 yrs ago, he would have just been a PC or Sgt who was following orders from higher ranking Officers.
Policing have changed massively in the last 23 yrs and the public need to understand this aswell.

He was involved in the internal inquiry held in the aftermath of the tragedy that covered up the evidence. Like Dave Juson said please read the report first before commenting about the role of the fans in the tragedy.

The police are responsible for the safety of the fans - they should have realised the overcrowding and crushing, and postponed, indeed abandoned, the match. They also opened an exit turnstile that led to even more crushing. They then conspired to cover up their failures by altering statements and putting out completely false accusations about the fans. That is why the policy are being blamed.

Of course, the FA are not blameless - the game should never have been been played at Hillsborough in the first place - and they participated in the cover-up even though they knew the facts. But the police had the power to stop the tragedy, did nothing, then tried to pass off the blame. That is why they are being hammered.

like many i have my own memorys of that day and of the bradford disaster 4 years earlier, images of both i will never forget nor will i forget the heysel stadium disaster in the same year as bradford.
we all know the causes of those disasters and i am not here to lay blame anywhere, i leave that for those in charge. i would just like to see justice take its course and those responsible be punished fully.
i just wish that so many people didnt have to die or get injured so that we can watch games in the safe maner that we all do now days.
I also have my own memorys of being squashed into a ground for an fa cup semi 1986 at white hart lane, i remember standing there packed in so tight and then a copper walking infront of us with a mega fone asking us to move up as another 2000 fans had to get in. lots of us have similar stories but we are the lucky ones. my heart goes out to all those who have been killed or injured doing what we all love to do, watching a football game, and after all it is just a game!

Can I just add my thoughts, as I see it.

Obviously, South Yorkshire police have to take the majority of the blame.

I can't see how Sheffield Wednesday FC can be at fault. Surely if Hillsborough was inadequate to stage an FA Cup semi final, then the FA shouldn't have chosen this venue - are the FA then at fault?

Lastly, the fans. Obviously, the fans who were already inside the ground, including the 96 who sadly and tragically lost their lives, were not at fault.

Now the controversial bit!!!!! Liverpool fans during the 70's and 80's would always have a tendency to turn up en masse for an away match without tickets and cause, shall we say havoc, in the town or city centre in an attempt to get in. Surely we must remember them at The Dell. I believe that S Yorks police, in trying to keep calm and order, and instead of allowing 1000's of drunk Liverpool fans roaming through Sheffield city centre, decided to open the gate to the Leppings Lane end "so they could keep all the fans in one place". This was one of the police errors - but surely those "fans" who turned up demanding to get into the game when they didn't have a ticket, have to take SOME of the responsibility?

Cue the hate and vitriol towards me!!!

What a cover up and what a national disgrace.the police and the politicians should hold their heads in shame.ditto theFA and sheffield wednesday Hillsborough as a ground was a disgrace then and i doubt whether it is much better run now with that milan mandaric geezer in charge.
It would seem that this was a conspiracy that reached the very top of the conservative party with Thatcher herself involved in the disgraceful attempts to make the blame fall anywhere but with the police.
One point of local issue is that Thatcher supporter and fellow tory MP of the time,michael mates is now seeking to stand as POLICE COMMISSIONER for Hampshire and The Isle of Wight .I would urge anybody who is thinking to put an x against the name of mr mates to think long and hard before doing so in these november police commissioner elections.

I have no agenda but if my memory serves me correctly one club had a certain reputation - and it cost their fellow "normal fans" lives.
I was brought up with hooliganism in the 70 & 80's and this one club had a reputation - going back many years. Whilst I fully accept there were faults on both sides - in retrospect the so called fans that left the pub at 5-to-3 and expect to push their way in cannot be vindicated and let off completely. It was par for the course to be in the mix and try and get in for free - it usually happened at every big game. I remember United fans at Wembley in 76 climbing up the outside of the stadium to get in!
Whilst football fans remain the "scum of the earth" although we now have seats - the police will never learn.
Drunkeness in socially unacceptable - but why ban all fans from sitting in their seats and having a beer during the game?
The government at the time was determined to stamp out hooliganism - and the Taylor report did a lot to set the wheels in motion.
I know the success at Liverpool made them a massive club loved by lots of people from outside the area (glory hunters) - but they still have to be the most ignorant and arrogant football fans in the country.

St.Yorkie wrote:
I have no agenda but if my memory serves me correctly one club had a certain reputation - and it cost their fellow "normal fans" lives.
I was brought up with hooliganism in the 70 & 80's and this one club had a reputation - going back many years. Whilst I fully accept there were faults on both sides - in retrospect the so called fans that left the pub at 5-to-3 and expect to push their way in cannot be vindicated and let off completely. It was par for the course to be in the mix and try and get in for free - it usually happened at every big game. I remember United fans at Wembley in 76 climbing up the outside of the stadium to get in!
Whilst football fans remain the "scum of the earth" although we now have seats - the police will never learn.
Drunkeness in socially unacceptable - but why ban all fans from sitting in their seats and having a beer during the game?
The government at the time was determined to stamp out hooliganism - and the Taylor report did a lot to set the wheels in motion.
I know the success at Liverpool made them a massive club loved by lots of people from outside the area (glory hunters) - but they still have to be the most ignorant and arrogant football fans in the country.

I think you've put it better than me but that was mainly my point in my last paragraph.

I'm sorry but both reports have completely discarded the relevance of any drunk or ticketless fans in causing the tragedy. Please read both reports before making such ridiculous comments.

mtdiablo wrote:
I'm sorry but both reports have completely discarded the relevance of any drunk or ticketless fans in causing the tragedy. Please read both reports before making such ridiculous comments.

You are wasting your time mtdiablo. It would be a devil of a job convincing most of the people that post on this site that complete ignorance of a subject is an impediment to passing an opinion or judgement on it.

Dave Juson wrote:

mtdiablo wrote:
I'm sorry but both reports have completely discarded the relevance of any drunk or ticketless fans in causing the tragedy. Please read both reports before making such ridiculous comments.

You are wasting your time mtdiablo. It would be a devil of a job convincing most of the people that post on this site that complete ignorance of a subject is an impediment to passing an opinion or judgement on it.

Hold on Dave, you are coming across as a bit of a smart arrse, and nobody likes those, I’m sure your not really and that your intentions are honourable.
But everybody is welcome to express their own thoughts and opinions on these message boards.
They will not always line up with yours, but that is not to say they are just as valid from another perspective.

Well, Mush, as it happens, I am a bit of a ‘smart arrse’ . So, and please excuse me for stating the obvious, why shouldn't I be exasperated by the fact that many of those above are speculating about supposed shortcomings of a well crafted and intelligent report (I’m up to page 46) that they have not read on the basis of a brief article on this website, observing that there is an article in today’s Echo concerning Lawrie McMenemy’s reaction, as an eyewitness to what transpired, and linking it to what he has been told about the report by the media? And while this is a democracy, and anyone is entitled to stuff their points of view, however witless, on this site, I am – surely! – equally free to point out that my blood is boiling.

I went to loads of games in those days, and if you didn't have a ticket, you could bung the guy on the turnstile a note and he'd let you jump over the barrier - I did it down at Fratton park; got kicked out of the Saints end, and went round their end and got in for a fiver, wearing my Saints kit ... got kjicked out again by a copper two minutes later.

The drunk Liverpool fans at the back who pushed into the ground have to take part of the blame; the dfact that the ones who died were at the front, and not the ones who turned up at 3 o'clock is why they didn't have alchohol in their blood. Yes, the police ballsed the whole thing up, but the Liverpool fans who tried to get in without tickets HAVE to accpet some of the blame for their actions; after al, it was THEM that pushed down onto the ones already in the ground, not the police.

Dave Juson wrote:
Well, Mush, as it happens, I am a bit of a ‘smart arrse’ . So, and please excuse me for stating the obvious, why shouldn't I be exasperated by the fact that many of those above are speculating about supposed shortcomings of a well crafted and intelligent report (I’m up to page 46) that they have not read on the basis of a brief article on this website, observing that there is an article in today’s Echo concerning Lawrie McMenemy’s reaction, as an eyewitness to what transpired, and linking it to what he has been told about the report by the media? And while this is a democracy, and anyone is entitled to stuff their points of view, however witless, on this site, I am – surely! – equally free to point out that my blood is boiling.

Dave, thanks for the reply. Not feeling that enthused at the moment as Saints have just been stuffed by the Gooners. I guess in summary my reply to you is in a similar vein to my first.
You obviously have a passionate view and detailed interest in the subject and that is admirable.
I just still get the feel from you that anybody that is not singing from your hymn sheet is witless in your eyes. You do not and should not presume to think you know everybody else’s angles and experiences on such an emotive subject. I am certainly not trying to pick a fight, but just hoping you learn to realise as I said before that you have to respect opinions of others who come from another perspective.
Have a beer and cool down the boiling blood and enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Ultimately, no one should be blamed for this tragedy. Without sounding glib, people will always make mistakes with tragic consequences. We`re always looking to blame someone whether its social workers, bankers, whoever. Life is complex - shouldn`t ALL of us of a voting age in 1989 be taking the blame in as much as we allowed a society/culture to exist that actively allowed and accepted the herding of football fans into glorified pig pens. No one thought this was odd??!!

That aside, what is completely beyond the pale is the fact that the police deliberately distorted and fabricated evidence in the aftermath. Every time something outrageous happens like this or the fellow who died at the G20 demonstration- we`re told its a few bad apples.......

Well, I hate to use a dodgy metaphor but who on earth would want to keep buying apples from that grocer?

Tony in Liberia wrote:
I went to loads of games in those days, and if you didn't have a ticket, you could bung the guy on the turnstile a note and he'd let you jump over the barrier - I did it down at Fratton park; got kicked out of the Saints end, and went round their end and got in for a fiver, wearing my Saints kit ... got kjicked out again by a copper two minutes later.

The drunk Liverpool fans at the back who pushed into the ground have to take part of the blame; the dfact that the ones who died were at the front, and not the ones who turned up at 3 o'clock is why they didn't have alchohol in their blood. Yes, the police ballsed the whole thing up, but the Liverpool fans who tried to get in without tickets HAVE to accpet some of the blame for their actions; after al, it was THEM that pushed down onto the ones already in the ground, not the police.

I agree.

Dave Juson wrote:

mtdiablo wrote:
I'm sorry but both reports have completely discarded the relevance of any drunk or ticketless fans in causing the tragedy. Please read both reports before making such ridiculous comments.

You are wasting your time mtdiablo. It would be a devil of a job convincing most of the people that post on this site that complete ignorance of a subject is an impediment to passing an opinion or judgement on it.

Dave, I hope you weren't referring to my comment earlier as part of your judgement!!!!

What I said about Liverpool fans, which Tony in Liberia has alluded to, and I think maybe also St Retford (sorry mate for naming you), is that the Liverpool "fans" who turned up at Hillsborough at 15.00 or 15.05 (or whatever time) all lagered up, demanding to get in, HAVE to accept SOME responsibility. And as I said earlier, surely we all remember Liverpool fans at the Dell in the 70's and 80's???

My sympathy, sorrow, condolonces go out to the family and friends of the 96 (RIP) but they were not at fault. The police and the government were BUT SO WERE SOME "FANS"!!!!!

Thanks for listening.

I am grateful to the guys who have posted here as I have been feeling a bit strange about the views I hold on this. EXCEPT Dave Juson and mtdiablo, who have expected us to live in a Police State over the last 25 years where nothing bad ever happens and all football fans are angels and there is no risk to life at all. And no fun either.
The thing is this...if the Police had said: there were not enough of us to contain this massive crowd, why did the FA choose this inadequate ground? Why were there not enough tickets printed? Why are fans let to go to the pub till 2.40 closing time (at the time) have you ever seen the wavy "falling crowd" at the Kop end...? Where are all the ambulances over the weekend? etc.
It's not the person's crime or fault or guilt... it's the COVER UP that gets them every time.
Thank you for reading.

batesieboy wrote:
I am grateful to the guys who have posted here as I have been feeling a bit strange about the views I hold on this. EXCEPT Dave Juson and mtdiablo, who have expected us to live in a Police State over the last 25 years where nothing bad ever happens and all football fans are angels and there is no risk to life at all. And no fun either.
The thing is this...if the Police had said: there were not enough of us to contain this massive crowd, why did the FA choose this inadequate ground? Why were there not enough tickets printed? Why are fans let to go to the pub till 2.40 closing time (at the time) have you ever seen the wavy "falling crowd" at the Kop end...? Where are all the ambulances over the weekend? etc.
It's not the person's crime or fault or guilt... it's the COVER UP that gets them every time.
Thank you for reading.

I agree with you about the state of the ground. If Hillsborouh was not up to standard to stage an FA Cup semi-final, then surely the FA have to take some responsibility for choosing it in the first place.

And also, if a certain area, for example a section of terracing at a football ground only holds 1,000 people, then if more than 1,000 people enter that area, there might be a bit of a squeeze!!! This is where the police f@ked up and also this is where certain "fans" have to take responsibility.

sburman wrote:
Something has always troubled meabout this tragedy and this report has not helped me out.

Hillsborough Football ground was not fit to stage such big football match - accepted

All the people who died or where injured where already in the ground watching the start of the match and totally innocent – OK

The police lost control of the crowds and afterwards tried to cover it up – Disgusting thing to happen.

But now please bear with me. Shall we say that the area of the ground effected holds 5,000 people and so 5,000 tickets were sold. My question now is where did all the hundreds of people still trying to get in after the kick off come from and what where they doing there?

My lasting image of the day in question is a crowd of people pushing and shoving trying to get into the ground because the match had already kicked off and a ranking police officer, on horse back, on the verge of loosing control of the situation, or maybe he already had lost control.

Doesn’t this mob, I no not which team they supported, also bear some of the responsibility for what followed. It’s like saying a riot took place and all the mayhem that followed is the police’s fault for not controlling it

The true facts concerning the crowds outside the stadium are that the police closed approximately 16 turnstiles into the stadium and using mounted police officers corralled the milling fans into a solid mass who they then sent into the Leppings Lane end of the stadium that they ( the police ) had deliberately opened. This corralled mass of fans were forced into an already crowded area and the result was the tragedy that followed this deliberate police action. There was no crowd problem until the police corralled the fans.

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

St.Yorkie wrote:
I have no agenda but if my memory serves me correctly one club had a certain reputation - and it cost their fellow "normal fans" lives.
I was brought up with hooliganism in the 70 & 80's and this one club had a reputation - going back many years. Whilst I fully accept there were faults on both sides - in retrospect the so called fans that left the pub at 5-to-3 and expect to push their way in cannot be vindicated and let off completely. It was par for the course to be in the mix and try and get in for free - it usually happened at every big game. I remember United fans at Wembley in 76 climbing up the outside of the stadium to get in!
Whilst football fans remain the "scum of the earth" although we now have seats - the police will never learn.
Drunkeness in socially unacceptable - but why ban all fans from sitting in their seats and having a beer during the game?
The government at the time was determined to stamp out hooliganism - and the Taylor report did a lot to set the wheels in motion.
I know the success at Liverpool made them a massive club loved by lots of people from outside the area (glory hunters) - but they still have to be the most ignorant and arrogant football fans in the country.

I think you've put it better than me but that was mainly my point in my last paragraph.

Just to put the record straight, there were some fans who turned up late at the ground . Not because they were in the pub, but because they were stuck in traffic holdups on the motorway. The police knew about this traffic congestion and could have delayed the kick-off but they didn't .
The FA should be prosecuted for allowing the match to go ahead at a ground that didn't have a valid safety certificate. If a cinema or theatre hasn't got a safety certificate then they are not allowed to open and admit the public.
Regarding some of the posters on this site who continue to vilify the Liverpool fans, Please read the Taylor report and the latest report before you state things which have been proven to be false .
Liverpool fans and the people of Liverpool have been subject to a massive campaign of sheer hatred from many quarters, but we knew that a vast cover-up had been engineered against us. Thankfully we have stood firm, defended ourselves over the last 23 years and intend to press on to bring the people responsible to account for their criminal activity.

YNWA 96

As long as this includes:
the members of the FA at the time responsible for choosing Hillsborough as a venue;
the members of the Board of Sheffield Wednesday for not providing a safe, properly- stewarded, venue;
both these for providing tickets to Liverpool at the smaller end, and Forest at the larger;
Instead, the Old Bill is going to take all the flak, because the Liverpool fans of the day would have all lined up quietly and patiently waiting to enter, if it had not been for the Cops. The Police understood this at the time, and the cover-up will get them, not the tragedy that had a hundred or so different criteria which met at the wrong time in the wrong place.
Now, we have a general National Hysterical Witch-hunt, and everyone from the Prime Minister down is wondering what is in it for them, power or money... which to me is more scary than a badly organised football match 23 years ago.
Sorry if this view does not fit in with the present media-run hype.
I know, let's investigate Heysel "properly" next, shall we?

batesieboy wrote:
As long as this includes:
the members of the FA at the time responsible for choosing Hillsborough as a venue;
the members of the Board of Sheffield Wednesday for not providing a safe, properly- stewarded, venue;
both these for providing tickets to Liverpool at the smaller end, and Forest at the larger;
Instead, the Old Bill is going to take all the flak, because the Liverpool fans of the day would have all lined up quietly and patiently waiting to enter, if it had not been for the Cops. The Police understood this at the time, and the cover-up will get them, not the tragedy that had a hundred or so different criteria which met at the wrong time in the wrong place.
Now, we have a general National Hysterical Witch-hunt, and everyone from the Prime Minister down is wondering what is in it for them, power or money... which to me is more scary than a badly organised football match 23 years ago.
Sorry if this view does not fit in with the present media-run hype.
I know, let's investigate Heysel "properly" next, shall we?

Words fail me with comments made by people like you.
If you or I make a statement that is proven to be a lie then we are guilty of " perverting the course of justice " and would be liable to a lengthy prison sentence.
When the upholders of the law in this country " THE POLICE " are coerced by senior officers into amending legal statements so that innocent people are blamed instead of the police, those responsible for ordering this action should be dealt with in the strongest possible way. The police officers who amended their statements should also be dealt with as they are still guilty of perverting the course of justice.
It's a pity the police officers who were pressurized into amending their statements didn't " whistle-blow " that this had happened, They were probably more concerned with future promotion prospects and their nice police pension.

St.Yorkie wrote:
I have no agenda but if my memory serves me correctly one club had a certain reputation - and it cost their fellow "normal fans" lives.
I was brought up with hooliganism in the 70 & 80's and this one club had a reputation - going back many years. Whilst I fully accept there were faults on both sides - in retrospect the so called fans that left the pub at 5-to-3 and expect to push their way in cannot be vindicated and let off completely. It was par for the course to be in the mix and try and get in for free - it usually happened at every big game. I remember United fans at Wembley in 76 climbing up the outside of the stadium to get in!
Whilst football fans remain the "scum of the earth" although we now have seats - the police will never learn.
Drunkeness in socially unacceptable - but why ban all fans from sitting in their seats and having a beer during the game?
The government at the time was determined to stamp out hooliganism - and the Taylor report did a lot to set the wheels in motion.
I know the success at Liverpool made them a massive club loved by lots of people from outside the area (glory hunters) - but they still have to be the most ignorant and arrogant football fans in the country.

So I take it you didn't bother to read the report either? Dear O dear.

Proud from LIVERPOOL wrote:

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

St.Yorkie wrote:
I have no agenda but if my memory serves me correctly one club had a certain reputation - and it cost their fellow "normal fans" lives.
I was brought up with hooliganism in the 70 & 80's and this one club had a reputation - going back many years. Whilst I fully accept there were faults on both sides - in retrospect the so called fans that left the pub at 5-to-3 and expect to push their way in cannot be vindicated and let off completely. It was par for the course to be in the mix and try and get in for free - it usually happened at every big game. I remember United fans at Wembley in 76 climbing up the outside of the stadium to get in!
Whilst football fans remain the "scum of the earth" although we now have seats - the police will never learn.
Drunkeness in socially unacceptable - but why ban all fans from sitting in their seats and having a beer during the game?
The government at the time was determined to stamp out hooliganism - and the Taylor report did a lot to set the wheels in motion.
I know the success at Liverpool made them a massive club loved by lots of people from outside the area (glory hunters) - but they still have to be the most ignorant and arrogant football fans in the country.

I think you've put it better than me but that was mainly my point in my last paragraph.

Just to put the record straight, there were some fans who turned up late at the ground . Not because they were in the pub, but because they were stuck in traffic holdups on the motorway. The police knew about this traffic congestion and could have delayed the kick-off but they didn't .
The FA should be prosecuted for allowing the match to go ahead at a ground that didn't have a valid safety certificate. If a cinema or theatre hasn't got a safety certificate then they are not allowed to open and admit the public.
Regarding some of the posters on this site who continue to vilify the Liverpool fans, Please read the Taylor report and the latest report before you state things which have been proven to be false .
Liverpool fans and the people of Liverpool have been subject to a massive campaign of sheer hatred from many quarters, but we knew that a vast cover-up had been engineered against us. Thankfully we have stood firm, defended ourselves over the last 23 years and intend to press on to bring the people responsible to account for their criminal activity.

YNWA 96

Stuck in a traffic-jam, in a pub. EIther way, if the allocation for Liverpool was, let's say 3,000 fans, then only 3,000 should and would have had tickets, and only 3,000 fans would have been in the ground. Why then did more, ot more, than 3,000 turn up? In the hope of getting in to the ground, as Liverpool fans tended to do at every away ground at the time.

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

Proud from LIVERPOOL wrote:

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

St.Yorkie wrote:
I have no agenda but if my memory serves me correctly one club had a certain reputation - and it cost their fellow "normal fans" lives.
I was brought up with hooliganism in the 70 & 80's and this one club had a reputation - going back many years. Whilst I fully accept there were faults on both sides - in retrospect the so called fans that left the pub at 5-to-3 and expect to push their way in cannot be vindicated and let off completely. It was par for the course to be in the mix and try and get in for free - it usually happened at every big game. I remember United fans at Wembley in 76 climbing up the outside of the stadium to get in!
Whilst football fans remain the "scum of the earth" although we now have seats - the police will never learn.
Drunkeness in socially unacceptable - but why ban all fans from sitting in their seats and having a beer during the game?
The government at the time was determined to stamp out hooliganism - and the Taylor report did a lot to set the wheels in motion.
I know the success at Liverpool made them a massive club loved by lots of people from outside the area (glory hunters) - but they still have to be the most ignorant and arrogant football fans in the country.

I think you've put it better than me but that was mainly my point in my last paragraph.

Just to put the record straight, there were some fans who turned up late at the ground . Not because they were in the pub, but because they were stuck in traffic holdups on the motorway. The police knew about this traffic congestion and could have delayed the kick-off but they didn't .
The FA should be prosecuted for allowing the match to go ahead at a ground that didn't have a valid safety certificate. If a cinema or theatre hasn't got a safety certificate then they are not allowed to open and admit the public.
Regarding some of the posters on this site who continue to vilify the Liverpool fans, Please read the Taylor report and the latest report before you state things which have been proven to be false .
Liverpool fans and the people of Liverpool have been subject to a massive campaign of sheer hatred from many quarters, but we knew that a vast cover-up had been engineered against us. Thankfully we have stood firm, defended ourselves over the last 23 years and intend to press on to bring the people responsible to account for their criminal activity.

YNWA 96

Stuck in a traffic-jam, in a pub. EIther way, if the allocation for Liverpool was, let's say 3,000 fans, then only 3,000 should and would have had tickets, and only 3,000 fans would have been in the ground. Why then did more, ot more, than 3,000 turn up? In the hope of getting in to the ground, as Liverpool fans tended to do at every away ground at the time.

What are you talking about? Please don't bother commenting unless you are going to read the report. Where have you got 3000 from? There were 50,000 travelling fans, the report clearly states amonst all the documents, CCTV and TV footage there was no evidence of drunk fans turning up without tickets. This was all placed in the press by the police as part of the cover up. Please, read the report. There's a link on this page.

userds5050 wrote:

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

Proud from LIVERPOOL wrote:

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

St.Yorkie wrote:
I have no agenda but if my memory serves me correctly one club had a certain reputation - and it cost their fellow "normal fans" lives.
I was brought up with hooliganism in the 70 & 80's and this one club had a reputation - going back many years. Whilst I fully accept there were faults on both sides - in retrospect the so called fans that left the pub at 5-to-3 and expect to push their way in cannot be vindicated and let off completely. It was par for the course to be in the mix and try and get in for free - it usually happened at every big game. I remember United fans at Wembley in 76 climbing up the outside of the stadium to get in!
Whilst football fans remain the "scum of the earth" although we now have seats - the police will never learn.
Drunkeness in socially unacceptable - but why ban all fans from sitting in their seats and having a beer during the game?
The government at the time was determined to stamp out hooliganism - and the Taylor report did a lot to set the wheels in motion.
I know the success at Liverpool made them a massive club loved by lots of people from outside the area (glory hunters) - but they still have to be the most ignorant and arrogant football fans in the country.

I think you've put it better than me but that was mainly my point in my last paragraph.

Just to put the record straight, there were some fans who turned up late at the ground . Not because they were in the pub, but because they were stuck in traffic holdups on the motorway. The police knew about this traffic congestion and could have delayed the kick-off but they didn't .
The FA should be prosecuted for allowing the match to go ahead at a ground that didn't have a valid safety certificate. If a cinema or theatre hasn't got a safety certificate then they are not allowed to open and admit the public.
Regarding some of the posters on this site who continue to vilify the Liverpool fans, Please read the Taylor report and the latest report before you state things which have been proven to be false .
Liverpool fans and the people of Liverpool have been subject to a massive campaign of sheer hatred from many quarters, but we knew that a vast cover-up had been engineered against us. Thankfully we have stood firm, defended ourselves over the last 23 years and intend to press on to bring the people responsible to account for their criminal activity.

YNWA 96

Stuck in a traffic-jam, in a pub. EIther way, if the allocation for Liverpool was, let's say 3,000 fans, then only 3,000 should and would have had tickets, and only 3,000 fans would have been in the ground. Why then did more, ot more, than 3,000 turn up? In the hope of getting in to the ground, as Liverpool fans tended to do at every away ground at the time.

What are you talking about? Please don't bother commenting unless you are going to read the report. Where have you got 3000 from? There were 50,000 travelling fans, the report clearly states amonst all the documents, CCTV and TV footage there was no evidence of drunk fans turning up without tickets. This was all placed in the press by the police as part of the cover up. Please, read the report. There's a link on this page.

My point is if the allocation to Liverpool fans was a certain amount of tickets, then surely only the same number of fans should have travelled ie the fans who had the tickets!!!!!! If people didn't have a ticket, why did they travel to Sheffield?? In the hope of getting in? Into an area that should have already been filled with the correct number of people that the designated area holds. Perhaps Liverpool should have been given the larger and and largr allocation, but the club knew before the match of the allocation.

What would happen when Saints play Liverpool at Anfield? Saints fans will be given an allocation. I don't know what that figure will be, but for arguments sake, lets say 1500. Therefore only 1500 Saints fans should travel to Liverpool. The ones with the tickets.

What the police and the government did was despicable, especially the lies and cover-ups. BUT all I said was that SOME of the Liverpool fans have to take SOME of the responsibility.

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

Proud from LIVERPOOL wrote:

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

St.Yorkie wrote:
I have no agenda but if my memory serves me correctly one club had a certain reputation - and it cost their fellow "normal fans" lives.
I was brought up with hooliganism in the 70 & 80's and this one club had a reputation - going back many years. Whilst I fully accept there were faults on both sides - in retrospect the so called fans that left the pub at 5-to-3 and expect to push their way in cannot be vindicated and let off completely. It was par for the course to be in the mix and try and get in for free - it usually happened at every big game. I remember United fans at Wembley in 76 climbing up the outside of the stadium to get in!
Whilst football fans remain the "scum of the earth" although we now have seats - the police will never learn.
Drunkeness in socially unacceptable - but why ban all fans from sitting in their seats and having a beer during the game?
The government at the time was determined to stamp out hooliganism - and the Taylor report did a lot to set the wheels in motion.
I know the success at Liverpool made them a massive club loved by lots of people from outside the area (glory hunters) - but they still have to be the most ignorant and arrogant football fans in the country.

I think you've put it better than me but that was mainly my point in my last paragraph.

Just to put the record straight, there were some fans who turned up late at the ground . Not because they were in the pub, but because they were stuck in traffic holdups on the motorway. The police knew about this traffic congestion and could have delayed the kick-off but they didn't .
The FA should be prosecuted for allowing the match to go ahead at a ground that didn't have a valid safety certificate. If a cinema or theatre hasn't got a safety certificate then they are not allowed to open and admit the public.
Regarding some of the posters on this site who continue to vilify the Liverpool fans, Please read the Taylor report and the latest report before you state things which have been proven to be false .
Liverpool fans and the people of Liverpool have been subject to a massive campaign of sheer hatred from many quarters, but we knew that a vast cover-up had been engineered against us. Thankfully we have stood firm, defended ourselves over the last 23 years and intend to press on to bring the people responsible to account for their criminal activity.

YNWA 96

Stuck in a traffic-jam, in a pub. EIther way, if the allocation for Liverpool was, let's say 3,000 fans, then only 3,000 should and would have had tickets, and only 3,000 fans would have been in the ground. Why then did more, ot more, than 3,000 turn up? In the hope of getting in to the ground, as Liverpool fans tended to do at every away ground at the time.

I would strongly recommend that you read the both the Taylor report and The Hillsborough report.
The Hillsborough report is very, very detailed and runs to 389 pages cover to cover, that is assuming you can read and take in unbiased information. If you can't read or assimilate the information please get an adult to explain it to you

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

userds5050 wrote:

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

Proud from LIVERPOOL wrote:

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:

St.Yorkie wrote:
I have no agenda but if my memory serves me correctly one club had a certain reputation - and it cost their fellow "normal fans" lives.
I was brought up with hooliganism in the 70 & 80's and this one club had a reputation - going back many years. Whilst I fully accept there were faults on both sides - in retrospect the so called fans that left the pub at 5-to-3 and expect to push their way in cannot be vindicated and let off completely. It was par for the course to be in the mix and try and get in for free - it usually happened at every big game. I remember United fans at Wembley in 76 climbing up the outside of the stadium to get in!
Whilst football fans remain the "scum of the earth" although we now have seats - the police will never learn.
Drunkeness in socially unacceptable - but why ban all fans from sitting in their seats and having a beer during the game?
The government at the time was determined to stamp out hooliganism - and the Taylor report did a lot to set the wheels in motion.
I know the success at Liverpool made them a massive club loved by lots of people from outside the area (glory hunters) - but they still have to be the most ignorant and arrogant football fans in the country.

I think you've put it better than me but that was mainly my point in my last paragraph.

Just to put the record straight, there were some fans who turned up late at the ground . Not because they were in the pub, but because they were stuck in traffic holdups on the motorway. The police knew about this traffic congestion and could have delayed the kick-off but they didn't .
The FA should be prosecuted for allowing the match to go ahead at a ground that didn't have a valid safety certificate. If a cinema or theatre hasn't got a safety certificate then they are not allowed to open and admit the public.
Regarding some of the posters on this site who continue to vilify the Liverpool fans, Please read the Taylor report and the latest report before you state things which have been proven to be false .
Liverpool fans and the people of Liverpool have been subject to a massive campaign of sheer hatred from many quarters, but we knew that a vast cover-up had been engineered against us. Thankfully we have stood firm, defended ourselves over the last 23 years and intend to press on to bring the people responsible to account for their criminal activity.

YNWA 96

Stuck in a traffic-jam, in a pub. EIther way, if the allocation for Liverpool was, let's say 3,000 fans, then only 3,000 should and would have had tickets, and only 3,000 fans would have been in the ground. Why then did more, ot more, than 3,000 turn up? In the hope of getting in to the ground, as Liverpool fans tended to do at every away ground at the time.

What are you talking about? Please don't bother commenting unless you are going to read the report. Where have you got 3000 from? There were 50,000 travelling fans, the report clearly states amonst all the documents, CCTV and TV footage there was no evidence of drunk fans turning up without tickets. This was all placed in the press by the police as part of the cover up. Please, read the report. There's a link on this page.

My point is if the allocation to Liverpool fans was a certain amount of tickets, then surely only the same number of fans should have travelled ie the fans who had the tickets!!!!!! If people didn't have a ticket, why did they travel to Sheffield?? In the hope of getting in? Into an area that should have already been filled with the correct number of people that the designated area holds. Perhaps Liverpool should have been given the larger and and largr allocation, but the club knew before the match of the allocation.

What would happen when Saints play Liverpool at Anfield? Saints fans will be given an allocation. I don't know what that figure will be, but for arguments sake, lets say 1500. Therefore only 1500 Saints fans should travel to Liverpool. The ones with the tickets.

What the police and the government did was despicable, especially the lies and cover-ups. BUT all I said was that SOME of the Liverpool fans have to take SOME of the responsibility.

Wow, again read the report. There was no evidence ticketless fans tried to gain entry. In fact the report states coaches and mini buses were pulled over to check if travelling fans had tickets or were drunk. Fans travelling by train were escorted to the ground. The majority of pubs were closed. The crush outside the ground wad caused by a bottleneck in Leppings lane. It's all in the report. READ IT.

To think posters on this site are still making the same judgements about Liverpool fans when a 400 page detailed report tells the truth in black and white.

Sick and twisted!

I hope to god they don't lose their children through negligence.

God help them.

I give up!!!!!!!!!

Kings Lynn Saint wrote:
I give up!!!!!!!!!

Read this first: http://hillsborough.
independent.gov.uk/r
epository/report/HIP
_report.pdf

I don't want to denigrate the Liverpool fans, I really don't, but - surely there could only have been a crush if more fans were in that part of the ground than should have been? Or is the argument that, for instance, the safety barriers failed, and so people fell forward onto those in front of them?

If there were supposed to be x number of fnas in that end with tickets, then did only x try to get in, or did x + y? If not, then the blame lies celarly with the ground. If so, then clearly the people who made up the number y share part of the blame.

None of that excuses the police for their despicable behaviour, and all my feeling and sympathy goes to the dead and their familes, but if there are people in the 'y' category, we mustn't pretend that they don't exist.

From an article in todays sunday mirror.

A policeman on duty at Hillsborough whose statement was unknowingly altered yesterday demanded those responsible be sent to prison.

Former officer Martin McLoughlin only discovered two days ago that his version of events had been sanitised without his approval.

In his report made 23 years ago, just a few months after the tragedy, he had condemned his bosses, the lack of equipment and manpower.

But he was stunned to find his criticisms were all removed when he later saw a copy on the internet.

His statement was one of 164 from dozens of police officers which a damning report this week revealed had been tampered with.

The 54-year-old is now demanding a criminal inquiry and prosecutions for perverting the course of justice.

Mr McLoughlin, who was so traumatised by what he saw at Hillsborough that he quit the force in 1994, said: “I cannot even begin to express how disgusted and appalled I am.

“Not lads, not constables, not sergeants, not even inspectors – it could only have come from the very senior level of police management.

“I am absolutely overwhelmed by the size of it, if it is right then we are talking about a major conspiracy. God knows what the people of Liverpool must think or the relatives and loved ones of those who were lost.”

Martin McLoughlin a former police officer from Rotherham who was on duty at the Hillsborough football tragedy when 96 fans died .


OUTRAGEOUS

Martin, who has 15 years’ experience on the beat, added: “Obviously many police statements were altered without the knowledge or permission of those who made them.

“As far as I’m aware, doctoring somebody’s statement is a criminal offence, to my mind there has been so many altered and all in the same way to make the force not look in a bad light, or senior commanders in a bad light.

“There have been so many altered that it can’t be just coincidence, therefore there needs to be a full criminal inquiry, there has to be. All the poor people who died demand nothing less.

“I don’t want the people of Liverpool, the families of the poor people who died, to think all South Yorkshire coppers are bad ‘uns. We tried our best but we failed.”

Martin, who now works as a driver and funeral director, only found out about changes to his account when a work colleague showed him a copy on the internet this week.

Tony in Liberia wrote:
I don't want to denigrate the Liverpool fans, I really don't, but - surely there could only have been a crush if more fans were in that part of the ground than should have been? Or is the argument that, for instance, the safety barriers failed, and so people fell forward onto those in front of them?

If there were supposed to be x number of fnas in that end with tickets, then did only x try to get in, or did x + y? If not, then the blame lies celarly with the ground. If so, then clearly the people who made up the number y share part of the blame.

None of that excuses the police for their despicable behaviour, and all my feeling and sympathy goes to the dead and their familes, but if there are people in the 'y' category, we mustn't pretend that they don't exist.

There were more fans in the pens at the leppings lane end of the ground because the police opened the gate ( which they stated originally , the fans had broken down , Which was a total lie). They then used police officers and mounted police to corral fans who were outside the ground , driving them into the already crowded pens at this end of the ground. Many of these fans should have been in adjacent areas but were driven into this area by the police action despite calling out this fact to the police as they were driven down the tunnel under the stand.

Tony in Liberia wrote:
I don't want to denigrate the Liverpool fans, I really don't, but - surely there could only have been a crush if more fans were in that part of the ground than should have been? Or is the argument that, for instance, the safety barriers failed, and so people fell forward onto those in front of them?

If there were supposed to be x number of fnas in that end with tickets, then did only x try to get in, or did x + y? If not, then the blame lies celarly with the ground. If so, then clearly the people who made up the number y share part of the blame.

None of that excuses the police for their despicable behaviour, and all my feeling and sympathy goes to the dead and their familes, but if there are people in the 'y' category, we mustn't pretend that they don't exist.

Wow. Another comment from someone who didn't bother to read the report. Once fans were let into the ground there were no stewards or signage to direct fans to the correct pens. The tunnel led them straight into the main two pens which quickly filled to twice capacity. Fans screamed at police to open the gate on each pen which opened onto the pitch. They did nothing. READ THE REPORT.

userds5050 wrote:

Tony in Liberia wrote:
I don't want to denigrate the Liverpool fans, I really don't, but - surely there could only have been a crush if more fans were in that part of the ground than should have been? Or is the argument that, for instance, the safety barriers failed, and so people fell forward onto those in front of them?

If there were supposed to be x number of fnas in that end with tickets, then did only x try to get in, or did x + y? If not, then the blame lies celarly with the ground. If so, then clearly the people who made up the number y share part of the blame.

None of that excuses the police for their despicable behaviour, and all my feeling and sympathy goes to the dead and their familes, but if there are people in the 'y' category, we mustn't pretend that they don't exist.

Wow. Another comment from someone who didn't bother to read the report. Once fans were let into the ground there were no stewards or signage to direct fans to the correct pens. The tunnel led them straight into the main two pens which quickly filled to twice capacity. Fans screamed at police to open the gate on each pen which opened onto the pitch. They did nothing. READ THE REPORT.

Thank you " userds5050 " for your assistance in trying to educate the posters on this site who are too lazy to read the Taylor and Hillsborough reports to grasp the full horror of what happened in Sheffield in 1989.

bout time the truth came out but is it me or do all liverpool fans seem to forget about the heysel disaster

hedgeenddan wrote:
bout time the truth came out but is it me or do all liverpool fans seem to forget about the heysel disaster

I have not forgotten the Heysel disaster, which was a truly horrendous incident by violent thugs masquerading as fans ( a common thing at that time in every major club in the football league ), made worse by the very fact that the stadium was literally falling apart. Indeed the loss of life was attributed to both the thugs and the wall collapse at the stadium.

The people responsible for that incident were however brought to justice ( I personally think their sentences should have been a very lot longer ).

All I and others are seeking is an end to the Hillsborough cover-up and the people responsible brought to justice, which I think the survivors and the families of the dead deserve after carrying the can for the last 23 years.

Taken from Wikipeadia

....................
.. fourteen Liverpool fans found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and each sentenced to three years' imprisonment. The disaster was later described as "the darkest hour in the history of the UEFA competitions".....

Proud from LIVERPOOL wrote:

batesieboy wrote:
As long as this includes:
the members of the FA at the time responsible for choosing Hillsborough as a venue;
the members of the Board of Sheffield Wednesday for not providing a safe, properly- stewarded, venue;
both these for providing tickets to Liverpool at the smaller end, and Forest at the larger;
Instead, the Old Bill is going to take all the flak, because the Liverpool fans of the day would have all lined up quietly and patiently waiting to enter, if it had not been for the Cops. The Police understood this at the time, and the cover-up will get them, not the tragedy that had a hundred or so different criteria which met at the wrong time in the wrong place.
Now, we have a general National Hysterical Witch-hunt, and everyone from the Prime Minister down is wondering what is in it for them, power or money... which to me is more scary than a badly organised football match 23 years ago.
Sorry if this view does not fit in with the present media-run hype.
I know, let's investigate Heysel "properly" next, shall we?

Words fail me with comments made by people like you.
If you or I make a statement that is proven to be a lie then we are guilty of " perverting the course of justice " and would be liable to a lengthy prison sentence.
When the upholders of the law in this country " THE POLICE " are coerced by senior officers into amending legal statements so that innocent people are blamed instead of the police, those responsible for ordering this action should be dealt with in the strongest possible way. The police officers who amended their statements should also be dealt with as they are still guilty of perverting the course of justice.
It's a pity the police officers who were pressurized into amending their statements didn't " whistle-blow " that this had happened, They were probably more concerned with future promotion prospects and their nice police pension.

Words DON'T fail me with me with people like you! My whole point is that everyone was covering their @r5e5 as fast as possible back then. Everyone was running scared. Now we have the massive "BURN THEM"!!! Just as much of a whitewash as what went before. All these big, fat crocodile tears will not bring back the 96. But many, many improvements in safety have been made, so maybe the tragedy was not all in vain.