NHS is being sold off

NHS is being sold off

NHS is being sold off

First published in Readers' Letters

LABOUR and the present government have issued £13 billion in private contracts such as Burger King, cleaning, security, cancer care, the list is endless, for the NHS.

The chief executive has sent a squad of security and managers to stop us informing the public at Southampton General Hospital about the selling off of the NHS.

In a free country we have a right to leaflet the public. We will not be stopped from telling the truth. Save the NHS or lose it forever!

MIKE MARX, Socialist Party.

Comments (21)

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4:41pm Wed 20 Aug 14

aldermoorboy says...

So what, who gives best value for money. GP'S HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PRIVATE FROM THE START.
So what, who gives best value for money. GP'S HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PRIVATE FROM THE START. aldermoorboy
  • Score: -7

5:11pm Wed 20 Aug 14

IronLady2010 says...

We need more money put into Mental Health!

Dime Bar!
We need more money put into Mental Health! Dime Bar! IronLady2010
  • Score: 3

5:40pm Wed 20 Aug 14

Lone Ranger. says...

aldermoorboy wrote:
So what, who gives best value for money. GP'S HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PRIVATE FROM THE START.
Arent they paid by the NHS then ?
[quote][p][bold]aldermoorboy[/bold] wrote: So what, who gives best value for money. GP'S HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PRIVATE FROM THE START.[/p][/quote]Arent they paid by the NHS then ? Lone Ranger.
  • Score: -1

7:10pm Wed 20 Aug 14

downfader says...

Lone Ranger. wrote:
aldermoorboy wrote:
So what, who gives best value for money. GP'S HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PRIVATE FROM THE START.
Arent they paid by the NHS then ?
GPs surgeries are run on private contracts. They get given a set budget and have their own committee or trust make separate decisions. Its a bit complicated but essentially yes, they are privately run.

The difference between GPs and private healthcare, food agents or other services is that GPs are not multinational businesses with an interest in profit before care.
[quote][p][bold]Lone Ranger.[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]aldermoorboy[/bold] wrote: So what, who gives best value for money. GP'S HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PRIVATE FROM THE START.[/p][/quote]Arent they paid by the NHS then ?[/p][/quote]GPs surgeries are run on private contracts. They get given a set budget and have their own committee or trust make separate decisions. Its a bit complicated but essentially yes, they are privately run. The difference between GPs and private healthcare, food agents or other services is that GPs are not multinational businesses with an interest in profit before care. downfader
  • Score: 1

5:25am Thu 21 Aug 14

aldermoorboy says...

NHS has always been a mixture of private and public, the only thing that matters is who gives best value, then we all gain including you an your family Lone Ranger.
NHS has always been a mixture of private and public, the only thing that matters is who gives best value, then we all gain including you an your family Lone Ranger. aldermoorboy
  • Score: 0

10:27am Thu 21 Aug 14

downfader says...

aldermoorboy wrote:
NHS has always been a mixture of private and public, the only thing that matters is who gives best value, then we all gain including you an your family Lone Ranger.
But we're not getting the best value are we.

Finances are STILL being siphoned off by very high salaries, expenses, luxury schemes... its a PUBLIC service, the clue is in there somewhere... we have a major situation where almost every frontline politician in this country has some kind of lucrative link to private investment in healthcare are the surrounding industries.

..is it any wonder they're slowly letting it fritter away? The NHS has become about profit at the top, and cuts to frontline services at the bottom.
[quote][p][bold]aldermoorboy[/bold] wrote: NHS has always been a mixture of private and public, the only thing that matters is who gives best value, then we all gain including you an your family Lone Ranger.[/p][/quote]But we're not getting the best value are we. Finances are STILL being siphoned off by very high salaries, expenses, luxury schemes... its a PUBLIC service, the clue is in there somewhere... we have a major situation where almost every frontline politician in this country has some kind of lucrative link to private investment in healthcare are the surrounding industries. ..is it any wonder they're slowly letting it fritter away? The NHS has become about profit at the top, and cuts to frontline services at the bottom. downfader
  • Score: -1

3:06pm Thu 21 Aug 14

Linesman says...

aldermoorboy wrote:
NHS has always been a mixture of private and public, the only thing that matters is who gives best value, then we all gain including you an your family Lone Ranger.
All too often, NHS patients get sent to a Private hospital, such as BUPA, for treatment, because the NHS hospital either has not bed or is short of staff.

This means that NHS money is being siphned off into the privte sector, instead of being retained in the NHS system, and is costing more because the private sector has to make a profit to keep its shareholders happy.

The rot set in under Thathcher when tax incentives were given to those who paid in for private medical care, resulting in the increase in private hospitals. It also resulted in 'queue jumping', with private patients being put at the top of nhs/private practice consultantts list.
[quote][p][bold]aldermoorboy[/bold] wrote: NHS has always been a mixture of private and public, the only thing that matters is who gives best value, then we all gain including you an your family Lone Ranger.[/p][/quote]All too often, NHS patients get sent to a Private hospital, such as BUPA, for treatment, because the NHS hospital either has not bed or is short of staff. This means that NHS money is being siphned off into the privte sector, instead of being retained in the NHS system, and is costing more because the private sector has to make a profit to keep its shareholders happy. The rot set in under Thathcher when tax incentives were given to those who paid in for private medical care, resulting in the increase in private hospitals. It also resulted in 'queue jumping', with private patients being put at the top of nhs/private practice consultantts list. Linesman
  • Score: -3

7:31am Fri 22 Aug 14

aldermoorboy says...

Linesman you say public has an advantage over private ( because private has to make a profit) would you nationalise everything using that case?
What about private works best because of profit incentive?
Linesman you say public has an advantage over private ( because private has to make a profit) would you nationalise everything using that case? What about private works best because of profit incentive? aldermoorboy
  • Score: -2

11:31am Fri 22 Aug 14

Linesman says...

aldermoorboy wrote:
Linesman you say public has an advantage over private ( because private has to make a profit) would you nationalise everything using that case?
What about private works best because of profit incentive?
Where have I stated that public has an advantage over private?

You appear to have a problem with comprehension similar to that suffered by loosehead.

Perhaps you are not old enough to remember Thatcher allowing private health care insureance being tax deductable, which resulted in the mushrooming of private hospitals.

Where do you think those hospitals got their trained staff from, and who trained them?

Doctors, Nurses and associated technicians were trained in NHS hospitals (some hospitals were designated Training Hospitals) and were paid, by the NHS (a small salary) during training.

NO Private Hospitals were designated Training Hospitals - they just 'creamed off' NHS trained staff, offering more money and better conditions.

Would I nationalise everything?

Good question!

The conditions in coal mines certainly improved with nationalisation, with far less loss of life, and a greater life expectancy.

We were told that, with privatisation, there would be competition, and that would keep prices down.

Railways? We, the tax-payers, have paid £millions in subsidies since they were privatised, but prices have contually risen above inflation, and the shareholders are getting a dividend. So, in my opinion, better to have stayed nationalised.

Electricity and Gas? How strange that, despite the Alleged competition, there is precious little difference between the deals offered by any of the companies. The big difference is in where the profits end up, as many of those companies are foreign-owned.

North Sea Oil. If ever there was a case of 'killing the goose that laid the golden egg' this was a prime example. Most of the profits have gone abroad.

With the £Billions raised by the government 'SELLING US, THINGS THAT WE ALREADY OWNED' (A Con Trick if ever there was one), I would be interested to know what we have got to show for it.

It was certainly Not spent on building Schools or Hospitals, as if it had been, there would have been no need for PFI.

"What about private works best because of profit incentives?"

Do you really think that a Surgeon in an NHS hospital is any less dedicated than the one who works for a Private Hospital?

Do you really think that a train driver, when it was Nationalised, was less motivated than he is working for Virgin?

Likewise the worker in an electricity generating station.
[quote][p][bold]aldermoorboy[/bold] wrote: Linesman you say public has an advantage over private ( because private has to make a profit) would you nationalise everything using that case? What about private works best because of profit incentive?[/p][/quote]Where have I stated that public has an advantage over private? You appear to have a problem with comprehension similar to that suffered by loosehead. Perhaps you are not old enough to remember Thatcher allowing private health care insureance being tax deductable, which resulted in the mushrooming of private hospitals. Where do you think those hospitals got their trained staff from, and who trained them? Doctors, Nurses and associated technicians were trained in NHS hospitals (some hospitals were designated Training Hospitals) and were paid, by the NHS (a small salary) during training. NO Private Hospitals were designated Training Hospitals - they just 'creamed off' NHS trained staff, offering more money and better conditions. Would I nationalise everything? Good question! The conditions in coal mines certainly improved with nationalisation, with far less loss of life, and a greater life expectancy. We were told that, with privatisation, there would be competition, and that would keep prices down. Railways? We, the tax-payers, have paid £millions in subsidies since they were privatised, but prices have contually risen above inflation, and the shareholders are getting a dividend. So, in my opinion, better to have stayed nationalised. Electricity and Gas? How strange that, despite the Alleged competition, there is precious little difference between the deals offered by any of the companies. The big difference is in where the profits end up, as many of those companies are foreign-owned. North Sea Oil. If ever there was a case of 'killing the goose that laid the golden egg' this was a prime example. Most of the profits have gone abroad. With the £Billions raised by the government 'SELLING US, THINGS THAT WE ALREADY OWNED' (A Con Trick if ever there was one), I would be interested to know what we have got to show for it. It was certainly Not spent on building Schools or Hospitals, as if it had been, there would have been no need for PFI. "What about private works best because of profit incentives?" Do you really think that a Surgeon in an NHS hospital is any less dedicated than the one who works for a Private Hospital? Do you really think that a train driver, when it was Nationalised, was less motivated than he is working for Virgin? Likewise the worker in an electricity generating station. Linesman
  • Score: -2

11:33am Fri 22 Aug 14

Linesman says...

Linesman wrote:
aldermoorboy wrote:
Linesman you say public has an advantage over private ( because private has to make a profit) would you nationalise everything using that case?
What about private works best because of profit incentive?
Where have I stated that public has an advantage over private?

You appear to have a problem with comprehension similar to that suffered by loosehead.

Perhaps you are not old enough to remember Thatcher allowing private health care insureance being tax deductable, which resulted in the mushrooming of private hospitals.

Where do you think those hospitals got their trained staff from, and who trained them?

Doctors, Nurses and associated technicians were trained in NHS hospitals (some hospitals were designated Training Hospitals) and were paid, by the NHS (a small salary) during training.

NO Private Hospitals were designated Training Hospitals - they just 'creamed off' NHS trained staff, offering more money and better conditions.

Would I nationalise everything?

Good question!

The conditions in coal mines certainly improved with nationalisation, with far less loss of life, and a greater life expectancy.

We were told that, with privatisation, there would be competition, and that would keep prices down.

Railways? We, the tax-payers, have paid £millions in subsidies since they were privatised, but prices have contually risen above inflation, and the shareholders are getting a dividend. So, in my opinion, better to have stayed nationalised.

Electricity and Gas? How strange that, despite the Alleged competition, there is precious little difference between the deals offered by any of the companies. The big difference is in where the profits end up, as many of those companies are foreign-owned.

North Sea Oil. If ever there was a case of 'killing the goose that laid the golden egg' this was a prime example. Most of the profits have gone abroad.

With the £Billions raised by the government 'SELLING US, THINGS THAT WE ALREADY OWNED' (A Con Trick if ever there was one), I would be interested to know what we have got to show for it.

It was certainly Not spent on building Schools or Hospitals, as if it had been, there would have been no need for PFI.

"What about private works best because of profit incentives?"

Do you really think that a Surgeon in an NHS hospital is any less dedicated than the one who works for a Private Hospital?

Do you really think that a train driver, when it was Nationalised, was less motivated than he is working for Virgin?

Likewise the worker in an electricity generating station.
ps Southampton Corporation Bus Service actually provided a better, more comprehensive service, than we have had since it was privatised.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]aldermoorboy[/bold] wrote: Linesman you say public has an advantage over private ( because private has to make a profit) would you nationalise everything using that case? What about private works best because of profit incentive?[/p][/quote]Where have I stated that public has an advantage over private? You appear to have a problem with comprehension similar to that suffered by loosehead. Perhaps you are not old enough to remember Thatcher allowing private health care insureance being tax deductable, which resulted in the mushrooming of private hospitals. Where do you think those hospitals got their trained staff from, and who trained them? Doctors, Nurses and associated technicians were trained in NHS hospitals (some hospitals were designated Training Hospitals) and were paid, by the NHS (a small salary) during training. NO Private Hospitals were designated Training Hospitals - they just 'creamed off' NHS trained staff, offering more money and better conditions. Would I nationalise everything? Good question! The conditions in coal mines certainly improved with nationalisation, with far less loss of life, and a greater life expectancy. We were told that, with privatisation, there would be competition, and that would keep prices down. Railways? We, the tax-payers, have paid £millions in subsidies since they were privatised, but prices have contually risen above inflation, and the shareholders are getting a dividend. So, in my opinion, better to have stayed nationalised. Electricity and Gas? How strange that, despite the Alleged competition, there is precious little difference between the deals offered by any of the companies. The big difference is in where the profits end up, as many of those companies are foreign-owned. North Sea Oil. If ever there was a case of 'killing the goose that laid the golden egg' this was a prime example. Most of the profits have gone abroad. With the £Billions raised by the government 'SELLING US, THINGS THAT WE ALREADY OWNED' (A Con Trick if ever there was one), I would be interested to know what we have got to show for it. It was certainly Not spent on building Schools or Hospitals, as if it had been, there would have been no need for PFI. "What about private works best because of profit incentives?" Do you really think that a Surgeon in an NHS hospital is any less dedicated than the one who works for a Private Hospital? Do you really think that a train driver, when it was Nationalised, was less motivated than he is working for Virgin? Likewise the worker in an electricity generating station.[/p][/quote]ps Southampton Corporation Bus Service actually provided a better, more comprehensive service, than we have had since it was privatised. Linesman
  • Score: -1

5:53pm Fri 22 Aug 14

aldermoorboy says...

Linesman thanks for your comments, points well made , but I disagree to a degree. I would have competition where ever possible including schools/hospitals.
Have a good weekend.
Linesman thanks for your comments, points well made , but I disagree to a degree. I would have competition where ever possible including schools/hospitals. Have a good weekend. aldermoorboy
  • Score: -2

7:57am Sat 23 Aug 14

Linesman says...

aldermoorboy wrote:
Linesman thanks for your comments, points well made , but I disagree to a degree. I would have competition where ever possible including schools/hospitals.
Have a good weekend.
If competition delivered what it was claimed that it would do when nationalised industries were sold off, then there would be a better case in favour of it, but I can think of NONE where the promise was actually delivered.

Perhaps you could give me an example of where a former nationalised industry is working more efficiently and has kept its prices down.

You will note that the first thing that Royal Mail did when it was sold off was to increase the price of postage.
[quote][p][bold]aldermoorboy[/bold] wrote: Linesman thanks for your comments, points well made , but I disagree to a degree. I would have competition where ever possible including schools/hospitals. Have a good weekend.[/p][/quote]If competition delivered what it was claimed that it would do when nationalised industries were sold off, then there would be a better case in favour of it, but I can think of NONE where the promise was actually delivered. Perhaps you could give me an example of where a former nationalised industry is working more efficiently and has kept its prices down. You will note that the first thing that Royal Mail did when it was sold off was to increase the price of postage. Linesman
  • Score: 2

1:45pm Sun 24 Aug 14

IronLady2010 says...

I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers.

What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.
I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers. What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP. IronLady2010
  • Score: 4

4:57pm Sun 24 Aug 14

Linesman says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers.

What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.
I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost.

Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week.

There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES!
Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales.
When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper.

I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept.

I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers. What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.[/p][/quote]I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost. Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week. There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES! Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales. When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper. I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept. I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill. Linesman
  • Score: -2

5:25pm Sun 24 Aug 14

IronLady2010 says...

Linesman wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers.

What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.
I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost.

Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week.

There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES!
Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales.
When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper.

I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept.

I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.
Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here!

Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers. What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.[/p][/quote]I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost. Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week. There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES! Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales. When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper. I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept. I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.[/p][/quote]Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here! Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x IronLady2010
  • Score: -1

8:33pm Sun 24 Aug 14

Linesman says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
Linesman wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers.

What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.
I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost.

Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week.

There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES!
Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales.
When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper.

I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept.

I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.
Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here!

Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x
If they are agency, then they are paid a rate so that they can provide their own pension, and would be paid accordingly by their agency.

The agency, being a business, works for a profit, so would charge the NHS accordingly.

The only gain to the NHS, as far as I can see, is that they would not have to worry about people taking holidays or reporting sick.

Not sure about sporting injuries, as they are not, what could be termed, self inflicted.

To the best of my knowledge, professional footballers are not generally treated on the NHS, but have private medical care provided by their club's medical insurance.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers. What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.[/p][/quote]I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost. Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week. There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES! Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales. When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper. I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept. I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.[/p][/quote]Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here! Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x[/p][/quote]If they are agency, then they are paid a rate so that they can provide their own pension, and would be paid accordingly by their agency. The agency, being a business, works for a profit, so would charge the NHS accordingly. The only gain to the NHS, as far as I can see, is that they would not have to worry about people taking holidays or reporting sick. Not sure about sporting injuries, as they are not, what could be termed, self inflicted. To the best of my knowledge, professional footballers are not generally treated on the NHS, but have private medical care provided by their club's medical insurance. Linesman
  • Score: 0

8:53pm Sun 24 Aug 14

Rob444 says...

How many of you are aware of the TTIP?

TTIP — the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership that is currently being negotiated in secret by the European Commission and US government — could ultimately pose an even greater threat to jobs, public services and the environment in Britain and beyond.
How many of you are aware of the TTIP? TTIP — the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership that is currently being negotiated in secret by the European Commission and US government — could ultimately pose an even greater threat to jobs, public services and the environment in Britain and beyond. Rob444
  • Score: 0

8:49am Mon 25 Aug 14

Zexagon says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
Linesman wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers.

What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.
I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost.

Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week.

There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES!
Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales.
When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper.

I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept.

I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.
Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here!

Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x
Iron your bit about weekend footballers......cou
ldn't you say that about anything? DIYers, they chose to do DIY so should stump up the cost? Any sport or pastime has risks.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers. What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.[/p][/quote]I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost. Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week. There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES! Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales. When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper. I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept. I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.[/p][/quote]Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here! Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x[/p][/quote]Iron your bit about weekend footballers......cou ldn't you say that about anything? DIYers, they chose to do DIY so should stump up the cost? Any sport or pastime has risks. Zexagon
  • Score: 1

11:19am Mon 25 Aug 14

IronLady2010 says...

Zexagon wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
Linesman wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers.

What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.
I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost.

Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week.

There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES!
Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales.
When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper.

I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept.

I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.
Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here!

Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x
Iron your bit about weekend footballers......cou

ldn't you say that about anything? DIYers, they chose to do DIY so should stump up the cost? Any sport or pastime has risks.
I did say that's just one example.
[quote][p][bold]Zexagon[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers. What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.[/p][/quote]I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost. Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week. There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES! Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales. When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper. I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept. I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.[/p][/quote]Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here! Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x[/p][/quote]Iron your bit about weekend footballers......cou ldn't you say that about anything? DIYers, they chose to do DIY so should stump up the cost? Any sport or pastime has risks.[/p][/quote]I did say that's just one example. IronLady2010
  • Score: -1

5:46pm Mon 25 Aug 14

Linesman says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
Zexagon wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
Linesman wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers.

What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.
I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost.

Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week.

There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES!
Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales.
When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper.

I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept.

I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.
Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here!

Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x
Iron your bit about weekend footballers......cou


ldn't you say that about anything? DIYers, they chose to do DIY so should stump up the cost? Any sport or pastime has risks.
I did say that's just one example.
But it is always football and footballers that is used as an example, when I would imagine that there are more rugby players get injured, if not during the match, in the bar afterwards.
Rock climbers and people who explore caves have their share of injuries, as do cyclists and yachties.
It has been known for runners to have accidents, and even hill walkers.
Let's lump them all together and charge anyone who takes exercise.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Zexagon[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers. What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.[/p][/quote]I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost. Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week. There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES! Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales. When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper. I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept. I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.[/p][/quote]Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here! Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x[/p][/quote]Iron your bit about weekend footballers......cou ldn't you say that about anything? DIYers, they chose to do DIY so should stump up the cost? Any sport or pastime has risks.[/p][/quote]I did say that's just one example.[/p][/quote]But it is always football and footballers that is used as an example, when I would imagine that there are more rugby players get injured, if not during the match, in the bar afterwards. Rock climbers and people who explore caves have their share of injuries, as do cyclists and yachties. It has been known for runners to have accidents, and even hill walkers. Let's lump them all together and charge anyone who takes exercise. Linesman
  • Score: 1

6:34am Tue 26 Aug 14

FoysCornerBoy says...

Linesman wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
Zexagon wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
Linesman wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers.

What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.
I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost.

Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week.

There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES!
Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales.
When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper.

I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept.

I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.
Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here!

Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x
Iron your bit about weekend footballers......cou



ldn't you say that about anything? DIYers, they chose to do DIY so should stump up the cost? Any sport or pastime has risks.
I did say that's just one example.
But it is always football and footballers that is used as an example, when I would imagine that there are more rugby players get injured, if not during the match, in the bar afterwards.
Rock climbers and people who explore caves have their share of injuries, as do cyclists and yachties.
It has been known for runners to have accidents, and even hill walkers.
Let's lump them all together and charge anyone who takes exercise.
Don't forget drinkers, smokers, unhealthy eaters, motorists, horse riders etc.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Zexagon[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I have to agree with Linesman on this. The NHS is something we should treasure. I'm guessing the reason they contract out many services ie catering, cleaning etc is so they don't have to pay Public Sector pensions to these workers. What I would like to see is a big shake up of the NHS, so more money can be retained for more Nurses, such as a fine if you don't turn up for an appointment and a charge if you go to A&E for something pathetic that could be dealt with by a GP.[/p][/quote]I have no doubt that there is an element of truth in what you say regarding pensions, but the companies that provide the services have to have a pensions policy for their workforce, so their charges to the NHS would reflect this cost. Ward maids, when employed by the NHS, would know their wards, and the special requirements on those wards, taking a pride in their work. With outside contractors, they could be on a maternity ward one week, and othopaedic the next and heaven only knows where the following week. There has been a TV Chef doing a programme about hospital catering, giving examples of how costs can be reduced. More effort should be made by hospital administrators to follow those examples - IF THEY HAVE THE FACILITIES! Strange as it may seem, there are some hospitals that no longer have the facilities to do their own catering, only dealing with special diets. In some cases pre-cooked meals are 'imported' from Wales. When these suppliers are in the business of making a profit, and would have to pay transport costs to deliver the meals, then it is reasonable to assume that it should be possible to prepare and cook meals 'in house' at least as cheaply, if not cheaper. I agree with you with regard fines for people who miss appointments. Practically everyone has a telephone these days, so there is no excuse for not informing the department/GP Surgery if the appointment cannot be kept. I do not fully agree with regard your comment on A&E. Difficult to judge, and could entail the expense of an appeals process. However, when I had an accident in my car, I was charged for treatment, which was met my my insurance company. As that is the current situatioj, then I think that people who end up in A&E because of an excess of alcohol, should also be presented with a bill.[/p][/quote]Aren't many of the workers on Agency, which means they wouldn't get a pension? I'm just guessing here! Going back to A&E, the likes of footballers who play of a weekend and get injured, they chose the sport can't they be insured rather than take up NHS money? That's just one example. x[/p][/quote]Iron your bit about weekend footballers......cou ldn't you say that about anything? DIYers, they chose to do DIY so should stump up the cost? Any sport or pastime has risks.[/p][/quote]I did say that's just one example.[/p][/quote]But it is always football and footballers that is used as an example, when I would imagine that there are more rugby players get injured, if not during the match, in the bar afterwards. Rock climbers and people who explore caves have their share of injuries, as do cyclists and yachties. It has been known for runners to have accidents, and even hill walkers. Let's lump them all together and charge anyone who takes exercise.[/p][/quote]Don't forget drinkers, smokers, unhealthy eaters, motorists, horse riders etc. FoysCornerBoy
  • Score: 3

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