Human fireball arsonist jailed for Totton flat blaze

Daily Echo: Lee Cooper. Lee Cooper.

A MAN turned himself into a human fireball by dousing himself in petrol and setting it alight, a court was told.

Lee Cooper was left with horrific burns as a result of the dramatic suicide bid that threatened to destroy the entire block of flats where he was living at the time.

More than 30 firefighters were deployed to the housing association building in Totton after Cooper started the fire by igniting himself and furniture in the one bedroom flat he rented.

Alarm The 45-year-old later told police: “Once I lit the match I knew there was no going back.”

Cooper explained how he was still on fire as he attempted to raise the alarm with neighbours and tell them to get out as the fire engulfed his top floor flat.

A fire investigator’s report described how the fire had spread to the hallway and was threatening to spread to the roof space. Windows had been blown out due to the intensity of the blaze.

As reported at the time by the Daily Echo neighbours told of how they were forced to flee barefoot from the building in Mansergh Walk on the morning of January 9.

Caroline O’Shea, who fled with a neighbour’s son, described seeing Cooper in just his underpants that were also burnt. “He was very red and his hair was singed,” she said.

Cooper appeared at Winchester Crown Court to be sentenced after pleading guilty to causing arson being reckless as to whether life was endangered.

It was the third time Cooper had tried to take his own life. The court heard how he had decided to kill himself after splitting with his long-term partner. As a result he was left with 25 per cent burns to his body and spent six weeks in a specialist burns unit at Odstock hospital where he underwent a number of skin grafts.

In mitigation Wayne Cleaver said Cooper had never intended to endanger the lives of other people.

In concluding Cooper posed a danger to the public, Judge Guy Boney QC jailed him for four years and ordered he have an extended licence period of three years.

 

Comments (31)

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12:31pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Over the Edge says...

Hopefully whilst in jail he will get the mental health treatment he clearly needs.

Although technically he committed a criminal offence I think two years in jail is a bit harsh.
Hopefully whilst in jail he will get the mental health treatment he clearly needs. Although technically he committed a criminal offence I think two years in jail is a bit harsh. Over the Edge

1:29pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Hdg end mo says...

This man clearly needs help throwing him in prison and more than likely he will end up lost in the system mental health organisation would be much more suited for this individual
This man clearly needs help throwing him in prison and more than likely he will end up lost in the system mental health organisation would be much more suited for this individual Hdg end mo

2:26pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Huey says...

let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk
let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk Huey

2:55pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Linesman says...

Huey wrote:
let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk
An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.
[quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk[/p][/quote]An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off. Linesman

2:55pm Wed 31 Oct 12

rich the stitch says...

‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that. rich the stitch

3:04pm Wed 31 Oct 12

-stiv- says...

He could've killed everyone in that building. Old people, babies, children. Literally the ultimate act of selfishness. He could have jumped off a bridge but he wanted a big, dramatic, showy exit.
He could've killed everyone in that building. Old people, babies, children. Literally the ultimate act of selfishness. He could have jumped off a bridge but he wanted a big, dramatic, showy exit. -stiv-

3:35pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Georgem says...

-stiv- wrote:
He could've killed everyone in that building. Old people, babies, children. Literally the ultimate act of selfishness. He could have jumped off a bridge but he wanted a big, dramatic, showy exit.
Instant win! You mentioned children! Excellent competitive message-boarding!
[quote][p][bold]-stiv-[/bold] wrote: He could've killed everyone in that building. Old people, babies, children. Literally the ultimate act of selfishness. He could have jumped off a bridge but he wanted a big, dramatic, showy exit.[/p][/quote]Instant win! You mentioned children! Excellent competitive message-boarding! Georgem

4:02pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Huey says...

Linesman wrote:
Huey wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk
An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.
Ok we'll send him round to live with you then, seeing as you are so concerned.
Keep the matches hidden and turn your gas off.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk[/p][/quote]An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.[/p][/quote]Ok we'll send him round to live with you then, seeing as you are so concerned. Keep the matches hidden and turn your gas off. Huey

4:06pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Georgem says...

Huey wrote:
Linesman wrote:
Huey wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk
An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.
Ok we'll send him round to live with you then, seeing as you are so concerned.
Keep the matches hidden and turn your gas off.
Or how about the state takes care of him? Did that not occur to you?
[quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk[/p][/quote]An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.[/p][/quote]Ok we'll send him round to live with you then, seeing as you are so concerned. Keep the matches hidden and turn your gas off.[/p][/quote]Or how about the state takes care of him? Did that not occur to you? Georgem

4:13pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Huey says...

Georgem wrote:
Huey wrote:
Linesman wrote:
Huey wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk
An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.
Ok we'll send him round to live with you then, seeing as you are so concerned. Keep the matches hidden and turn your gas off.
Or how about the state takes care of him? Did that not occur to you?
HA good luck with that!
That state doesn't give a fig, else he would have been dealt with a long time ago, not like these are new problems are they now?
At best, he'll be released to be yet another nutter walking the streets, at worse he'll kill himself and others in a fire.
What a waste of space.
[quote][p][bold]Georgem[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk[/p][/quote]An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.[/p][/quote]Ok we'll send him round to live with you then, seeing as you are so concerned. Keep the matches hidden and turn your gas off.[/p][/quote]Or how about the state takes care of him? Did that not occur to you?[/p][/quote]HA good luck with that! That state doesn't give a fig, else he would have been dealt with a long time ago, not like these are new problems are they now? At best, he'll be released to be yet another nutter walking the streets, at worse he'll kill himself and others in a fire. What a waste of space. Huey

4:40pm Wed 31 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

rich the stitch wrote:
‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?!

The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
[quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country. cantthinkofone

4:41pm Wed 31 Oct 12

rich the stitch says...

Georgem wrote:
Huey wrote:
Linesman wrote:
Huey wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk
An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.
Ok we'll send him round to live with you then, seeing as you are so concerned. Keep the matches hidden and turn your gas off.
Or how about the state takes care of him? Did that not occur to you?
How about he gets locked up for his, and everyone elses safety.....oh wait.
[quote][p][bold]Georgem[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk[/p][/quote]An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.[/p][/quote]Ok we'll send him round to live with you then, seeing as you are so concerned. Keep the matches hidden and turn your gas off.[/p][/quote]Or how about the state takes care of him? Did that not occur to you?[/p][/quote]How about he gets locked up for his, and everyone elses safety.....oh wait. rich the stitch

4:46pm Wed 31 Oct 12

rich the stitch says...

cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him.
Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
[quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them. rich the stitch

4:49pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Huey says...

rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
WELL SAID
Recharge him for all the skin grafts as well.
[quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]WELL SAID Recharge him for all the skin grafts as well. Huey

5:09pm Wed 31 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him.
Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case.

If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
[quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in. cantthinkofone

5:10pm Wed 31 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him.
Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
"Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them."

Based on what you've read in the Echo. Wow. Just, wow. You're truly an astounding individual.
[quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]"Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them." Based on what you've read in the Echo. Wow. Just, wow. You're truly an astounding individual. cantthinkofone

5:26pm Wed 31 Oct 12

rich the stitch says...

cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.
[quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.[/p][/quote]Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’. rich the stitch

5:56pm Wed 31 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.
I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health.

Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite.

So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich?

If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk.

So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.
[quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.[/p][/quote]Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.[/p][/quote]I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health. Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite. So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich? If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk. So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh. cantthinkofone

6:18pm Wed 31 Oct 12

rich the stitch says...

cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.
I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health.

Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite.

So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich?

If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk.

So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.
Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not.
And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.
[quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.[/p][/quote]Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.[/p][/quote]I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health. Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite. So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich? If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk. So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.[/p][/quote]Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not. And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are. rich the stitch

6:55pm Wed 31 Oct 12

rikkic says...

well i was there in court, everytime, i heard all the evidence, and what the judge said, and its not exactly whats been printed!!
yes lee need help, hes been failed by the system that hes been a part of and pushed away everytime hes asked for help, this will help in a way, and the so called extended sentance means the system wil be arount long after hes released to keep him on track.
so to all you people with your opinions, get all of your facts straight before you judge people,
well i was there in court, everytime, i heard all the evidence, and what the judge said, and its not exactly whats been printed!! yes lee need help, hes been failed by the system that hes been a part of and pushed away everytime hes asked for help, this will help in a way, and the so called extended sentance means the system wil be arount long after hes released to keep him on track. so to all you people with your opinions, get all of your facts straight before you judge people, rikkic

7:04pm Wed 31 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.
I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health.

Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite.

So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich?

If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk.

So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.
Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not.
And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.
It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment.

You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them".

Can you see the difference there Rich?

And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.
[quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.[/p][/quote]Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.[/p][/quote]I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health. Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite. So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich? If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk. So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.[/p][/quote]Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not. And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.[/p][/quote]It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment. You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them". Can you see the difference there Rich? And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country. cantthinkofone

7:16pm Wed 31 Oct 12

rich the stitch says...

cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.
I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health.

Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite.

So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich?

If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk.

So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.
Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not.
And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.
It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment.

You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them".

Can you see the difference there Rich?

And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.
Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'
[quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.[/p][/quote]Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.[/p][/quote]I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health. Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite. So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich? If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk. So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.[/p][/quote]Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not. And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.[/p][/quote]It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment. You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them". Can you see the difference there Rich? And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.[/p][/quote]Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts' rich the stitch

7:34pm Wed 31 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.
I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health.

Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite.

So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich?

If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk.

So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.
Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not.
And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.
It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment.

You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them".

Can you see the difference there Rich?

And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.
Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'
I'm not an 'expert', but I have got professional experience working in mental health yes.

Let's just compare and contrast once again shall we?

I have stated that prison is not an appropriate environment to treat a mental health problem in. The vast majority of mental health 'experts' would agree with me on this. The post you refer to that talks about him being offered help and 'pushing back' is irrelevant tbh - it's a common sympton of MH problems in itself, and is what sectioning legislation is designed for when it poses a risk to the patient or others. So section him, and treat him.

You, on the other hand, have decided that he is untreatable. You have stated that he is beyond help. That is a remarkable diagnostic ability you have there.

But even if you were right, you've still not addressed the issue of what happens at the end of his sentence, an issue which wouldn't exist if he'd been sectioned instead. So I'll ask you again Rich - what happens after he's served his time and is released?
[quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.[/p][/quote]Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.[/p][/quote]I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health. Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite. So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich? If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk. So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.[/p][/quote]Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not. And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.[/p][/quote]It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment. You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them". Can you see the difference there Rich? And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.[/p][/quote]Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'[/p][/quote]I'm not an 'expert', but I have got professional experience working in mental health yes. Let's just compare and contrast once again shall we? I have stated that prison is not an appropriate environment to treat a mental health problem in. The vast majority of mental health 'experts' would agree with me on this. The post you refer to that talks about him being offered help and 'pushing back' is irrelevant tbh - it's a common sympton of MH problems in itself, and is what sectioning legislation is designed for when it poses a risk to the patient or others. So section him, and treat him. You, on the other hand, have decided that he is untreatable. You have stated that he is beyond help. That is a remarkable diagnostic ability you have there. But even if you were right, you've still not addressed the issue of what happens at the end of his sentence, an issue which wouldn't exist if he'd been sectioned instead. So I'll ask you again Rich - what happens after he's served his time and is released? cantthinkofone

7:52pm Wed 31 Oct 12

rich the stitch says...

cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.
I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health.

Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite.

So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich?

If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk.

So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.
Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not.
And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.
It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment.

You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them".

Can you see the difference there Rich?

And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.
Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'
I'm not an 'expert', but I have got professional experience working in mental health yes.

Let's just compare and contrast once again shall we?

I have stated that prison is not an appropriate environment to treat a mental health problem in. The vast majority of mental health 'experts' would agree with me on this. The post you refer to that talks about him being offered help and 'pushing back' is irrelevant tbh - it's a common sympton of MH problems in itself, and is what sectioning legislation is designed for when it poses a risk to the patient or others. So section him, and treat him.

You, on the other hand, have decided that he is untreatable. You have stated that he is beyond help. That is a remarkable diagnostic ability you have there.

But even if you were right, you've still not addressed the issue of what happens at the end of his sentence, an issue which wouldn't exist if he'd been sectioned instead. So I'll ask you again Rich - what happens after he's served his time and is released?
Unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball, unlike yourself who seems to know exactly how this person will react to treatment, if it be in prison or an institution. The fact that he could of killed a number of people and he is a danger to society seems to been forgotten. But hey although you claim not to be an expert, you certainly have the answers. The judge is in the best position to cast sentence, one which I agree with.
[quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.[/p][/quote]Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.[/p][/quote]I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health. Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite. So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich? If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk. So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.[/p][/quote]Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not. And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.[/p][/quote]It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment. You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them". Can you see the difference there Rich? And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.[/p][/quote]Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'[/p][/quote]I'm not an 'expert', but I have got professional experience working in mental health yes. Let's just compare and contrast once again shall we? I have stated that prison is not an appropriate environment to treat a mental health problem in. The vast majority of mental health 'experts' would agree with me on this. The post you refer to that talks about him being offered help and 'pushing back' is irrelevant tbh - it's a common sympton of MH problems in itself, and is what sectioning legislation is designed for when it poses a risk to the patient or others. So section him, and treat him. You, on the other hand, have decided that he is untreatable. You have stated that he is beyond help. That is a remarkable diagnostic ability you have there. But even if you were right, you've still not addressed the issue of what happens at the end of his sentence, an issue which wouldn't exist if he'd been sectioned instead. So I'll ask you again Rich - what happens after he's served his time and is released?[/p][/quote]Unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball, unlike yourself who seems to know exactly how this person will react to treatment, if it be in prison or an institution. The fact that he could of killed a number of people and he is a danger to society seems to been forgotten. But hey although you claim not to be an expert, you certainly have the answers. The judge is in the best position to cast sentence, one which I agree with. rich the stitch

8:01pm Wed 31 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.
I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health.

Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite.

So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich?

If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk.

So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.
Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not.
And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.
It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment.

You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them".

Can you see the difference there Rich?

And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.
Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'
I'm not an 'expert', but I have got professional experience working in mental health yes.

Let's just compare and contrast once again shall we?

I have stated that prison is not an appropriate environment to treat a mental health problem in. The vast majority of mental health 'experts' would agree with me on this. The post you refer to that talks about him being offered help and 'pushing back' is irrelevant tbh - it's a common sympton of MH problems in itself, and is what sectioning legislation is designed for when it poses a risk to the patient or others. So section him, and treat him.

You, on the other hand, have decided that he is untreatable. You have stated that he is beyond help. That is a remarkable diagnostic ability you have there.

But even if you were right, you've still not addressed the issue of what happens at the end of his sentence, an issue which wouldn't exist if he'd been sectioned instead. So I'll ask you again Rich - what happens after he's served his time and is released?
Unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball, unlike yourself who seems to know exactly how this person will react to treatment, if it be in prison or an institution. The fact that he could of killed a number of people and he is a danger to society seems to been forgotten. But hey although you claim not to be an expert, you certainly have the answers. The judge is in the best position to cast sentence, one which I agree with.
Way to miss the point there.

I'll put it reeeeeaaaally simply for you:

Sentenced to prison, he gets released after a set period of time.

Sectioned, he gets released when he no longer poses a risk.

Come on Richy-boy! Try and join the dots! Do your special "thinking face" if you need to. I BELIEVE in you Richy, you CAN do it!
[quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.[/p][/quote]Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.[/p][/quote]I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health. Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite. So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich? If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk. So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.[/p][/quote]Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not. And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.[/p][/quote]It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment. You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them". Can you see the difference there Rich? And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.[/p][/quote]Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'[/p][/quote]I'm not an 'expert', but I have got professional experience working in mental health yes. Let's just compare and contrast once again shall we? I have stated that prison is not an appropriate environment to treat a mental health problem in. The vast majority of mental health 'experts' would agree with me on this. The post you refer to that talks about him being offered help and 'pushing back' is irrelevant tbh - it's a common sympton of MH problems in itself, and is what sectioning legislation is designed for when it poses a risk to the patient or others. So section him, and treat him. You, on the other hand, have decided that he is untreatable. You have stated that he is beyond help. That is a remarkable diagnostic ability you have there. But even if you were right, you've still not addressed the issue of what happens at the end of his sentence, an issue which wouldn't exist if he'd been sectioned instead. So I'll ask you again Rich - what happens after he's served his time and is released?[/p][/quote]Unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball, unlike yourself who seems to know exactly how this person will react to treatment, if it be in prison or an institution. The fact that he could of killed a number of people and he is a danger to society seems to been forgotten. But hey although you claim not to be an expert, you certainly have the answers. The judge is in the best position to cast sentence, one which I agree with.[/p][/quote]Way to miss the point there. I'll put it reeeeeaaaally simply for you: Sentenced to prison, he gets released after a set period of time. Sectioned, he gets released when he no longer poses a risk. Come on Richy-boy! Try and join the dots! Do your special "thinking face" if you need to. I BELIEVE in you Richy, you CAN do it! cantthinkofone

8:16pm Wed 31 Oct 12

IronLady2010 says...

cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.
I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health.

Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite.

So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich?

If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk.

So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.
Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not.
And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.
It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment.

You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them".

Can you see the difference there Rich?

And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.
Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'
I'm not an 'expert', but I have got professional experience working in mental health yes.

Let's just compare and contrast once again shall we?

I have stated that prison is not an appropriate environment to treat a mental health problem in. The vast majority of mental health 'experts' would agree with me on this. The post you refer to that talks about him being offered help and 'pushing back' is irrelevant tbh - it's a common sympton of MH problems in itself, and is what sectioning legislation is designed for when it poses a risk to the patient or others. So section him, and treat him.

You, on the other hand, have decided that he is untreatable. You have stated that he is beyond help. That is a remarkable diagnostic ability you have there.

But even if you were right, you've still not addressed the issue of what happens at the end of his sentence, an issue which wouldn't exist if he'd been sectioned instead. So I'll ask you again Rich - what happens after he's served his time and is released?
Unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball, unlike yourself who seems to know exactly how this person will react to treatment, if it be in prison or an institution. The fact that he could of killed a number of people and he is a danger to society seems to been forgotten. But hey although you claim not to be an expert, you certainly have the answers. The judge is in the best position to cast sentence, one which I agree with.
Way to miss the point there.

I'll put it reeeeeaaaally simply for you:

Sentenced to prison, he gets released after a set period of time.

Sectioned, he gets released when he no longer poses a risk.

Come on Richy-boy! Try and join the dots! Do your special "thinking face" if you need to. I BELIEVE in you Richy, you CAN do it!
I'm not interfering here, but if prison staff feel he poses a risk to society on his release, can they not arrange for an outside Institution to help even if it is voluntary?

This may give prison enough time to convince him he needs help.

I'll never forget the day I witnessed a lady in our road who was having a breakdown, she attempted to drive her car between two houses to park the car in her back garden, she then jumped off a garage and killed herself.

Such a waste of life when we know we can help these people.
[quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.[/p][/quote]Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.[/p][/quote]I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health. Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite. So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich? If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk. So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.[/p][/quote]Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not. And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.[/p][/quote]It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment. You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them". Can you see the difference there Rich? And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.[/p][/quote]Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'[/p][/quote]I'm not an 'expert', but I have got professional experience working in mental health yes. Let's just compare and contrast once again shall we? I have stated that prison is not an appropriate environment to treat a mental health problem in. The vast majority of mental health 'experts' would agree with me on this. The post you refer to that talks about him being offered help and 'pushing back' is irrelevant tbh - it's a common sympton of MH problems in itself, and is what sectioning legislation is designed for when it poses a risk to the patient or others. So section him, and treat him. You, on the other hand, have decided that he is untreatable. You have stated that he is beyond help. That is a remarkable diagnostic ability you have there. But even if you were right, you've still not addressed the issue of what happens at the end of his sentence, an issue which wouldn't exist if he'd been sectioned instead. So I'll ask you again Rich - what happens after he's served his time and is released?[/p][/quote]Unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball, unlike yourself who seems to know exactly how this person will react to treatment, if it be in prison or an institution. The fact that he could of killed a number of people and he is a danger to society seems to been forgotten. But hey although you claim not to be an expert, you certainly have the answers. The judge is in the best position to cast sentence, one which I agree with.[/p][/quote]Way to miss the point there. I'll put it reeeeeaaaally simply for you: Sentenced to prison, he gets released after a set period of time. Sectioned, he gets released when he no longer poses a risk. Come on Richy-boy! Try and join the dots! Do your special "thinking face" if you need to. I BELIEVE in you Richy, you CAN do it![/p][/quote]I'm not interfering here, but if prison staff feel he poses a risk to society on his release, can they not arrange for an outside Institution to help even if it is voluntary? This may give prison enough time to convince him he needs help. I'll never forget the day I witnessed a lady in our road who was having a breakdown, she attempted to drive her car between two houses to park the car in her back garden, she then jumped off a garage and killed herself. Such a waste of life when we know we can help these people. IronLady2010

8:23pm Wed 31 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote:
cantthinkofone wrote:
rich the stitch wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.
This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.
Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.
So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.
Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.
I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health.

Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite.

So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich?

If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk.

So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.
Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not.
And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.
It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment.

You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them".

Can you see the difference there Rich?

And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.
Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'
I'm not an 'expert', but I have got professional experience working in mental health yes.

Let's just compare and contrast once again shall we?

I have stated that prison is not an appropriate environment to treat a mental health problem in. The vast majority of mental health 'experts' would agree with me on this. The post you refer to that talks about him being offered help and 'pushing back' is irrelevant tbh - it's a common sympton of MH problems in itself, and is what sectioning legislation is designed for when it poses a risk to the patient or others. So section him, and treat him.

You, on the other hand, have decided that he is untreatable. You have stated that he is beyond help. That is a remarkable diagnostic ability you have there.

But even if you were right, you've still not addressed the issue of what happens at the end of his sentence, an issue which wouldn't exist if he'd been sectioned instead. So I'll ask you again Rich - what happens after he's served his time and is released?
Unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball, unlike yourself who seems to know exactly how this person will react to treatment, if it be in prison or an institution. The fact that he could of killed a number of people and he is a danger to society seems to been forgotten. But hey although you claim not to be an expert, you certainly have the answers. The judge is in the best position to cast sentence, one which I agree with.
Way to miss the point there.

I'll put it reeeeeaaaally simply for you:

Sentenced to prison, he gets released after a set period of time.

Sectioned, he gets released when he no longer poses a risk.

Come on Richy-boy! Try and join the dots! Do your special "thinking face" if you need to. I BELIEVE in you Richy, you CAN do it!
I'm not interfering here, but if prison staff feel he poses a risk to society on his release, can they not arrange for an outside Institution to help even if it is voluntary?

This may give prison enough time to convince him he needs help.

I'll never forget the day I witnessed a lady in our road who was having a breakdown, she attempted to drive her car between two houses to park the car in her back garden, she then jumped off a garage and killed herself.

Such a waste of life when we know we can help these people.
It's a reasonable suggestion on the face of it IronLady, but the problem is simply that prison is not a good place for someone with mental health issues to be. They are surrounded by angry, aggressive men, and deprived of dignity and respect. These things are not conducive to mental recovery. It's the very opposite of what's termed a 'therapeutic environment'. The stats and research on mental health in prison, and on prison's effect on mental health, are frightening.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cantthinkofone[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rich the stitch[/bold] wrote: ‘He never wanted to endanger the lives of other people’. Well a good start would be not try to kill yourself in a way that would do exactly that.[/p][/quote]This may come as a shock to you, but funnily enough people that are in such emotional and mental anguish that they want to kill themselves, often aren't capable of making sound judgements or assessing the consequences of their actions properly. I know! Amazing isn't it! Who would have expected that?! The comments on stories like this always strike me with the unmet need for education on mental health in this country.[/p][/quote]Oh, well that's ok then. Sod it, lets just slap him on the wrist, ruffle his singed hair and let him back out to try again. Next time he may take a few people with him. Don't you think he may of got some sort of help the first time he tried to kill himself, or certainly the second time? Now he's tried a 3rd time. I agree some people will take the help they are given and more foward. Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them.[/p][/quote]So you think that 'punishing' him is going to work? You're as unhinged as he is if that's the case. If he's a danger to himself or others, then that's what sectioning legislation is there for. If he's a danger to himself or others, then he needs to be placed in a residential MH unit whilst he receives treatment, until he's assessed as no longer posing a threat. Locking him up in prison is an absolutely idiotic response, and likely to mean that upon release he will be in a worse state, and therefore present a BIGGER risk, than when he went in.[/p][/quote]Oh, so I’m now as ‘unhinged as he is’ because I would rather a danger to be public be locked up. Who are you to say he should not go to jail? Were you in the court? Did you hear all the evidence? No, nor did I. The judge did though, and said he was a danger to others and should be jailed....or are you suggesting the judge is as ‘unhinged as he is’.[/p][/quote]I'm certainly suggesting that judges are not experts on mental health. Prison often exacerbates mental health problems in individuals, and sentences are finite. So what do you suppose is going to happen when this man finishes his spell inside Rich? If sectioned, then not only would he be treated instead of punished, a far more humane response, but he could also be prevented from posing a risk to others indefinitely, until he had been successfully treated and was no longer considered a risk. So if you're so concerned about the danger he presents to the public, why do you want him to go to prison Rich? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense tbh.[/p][/quote]Well I'm sure the judge is in better position than us. I would of thought he had looked in to case to see if this danger to the public was better suited to prison or not. And you base your opinion on what you read in the echo. Wow, just wow. You're a truly outstanding individual you are.[/p][/quote]It doesn't take an awful lot of information to know that someone that has repeatedly attempted suicide needs treatment rather than punishment. You, on the other hand, decided that "Some people you just can't help, IMO, this is one of them". Can you see the difference there Rich? And no, judges aren't well qualified to make decisions about mental health at all, yet frequently do. Far too many of them believe themselves to be experts on all aspects of the universe, by dint of their wig. It's why our prisons are full of people with MH problems, and a contributory factor to the ridiculously high re-offending rates in this country.[/p][/quote]Well I apologise. I didn't know you we're an expert on the mental health system, and this case in particular. If you read the above post some one seems to know a little more about the case and has said that it will help him in a way and will keep a check on him. But hey, you know better than the judge and any advise he received before sentencing. Maybe he should of asked the advise of someone on the echo site, rather than one of these so called 'experts'[/p][/quote]I'm not an 'expert', but I have got professional experience working in mental health yes. Let's just compare and contrast once again shall we? I have stated that prison is not an appropriate environment to treat a mental health problem in. The vast majority of mental health 'experts' would agree with me on this. The post you refer to that talks about him being offered help and 'pushing back' is irrelevant tbh - it's a common sympton of MH problems in itself, and is what sectioning legislation is designed for when it poses a risk to the patient or others. So section him, and treat him. You, on the other hand, have decided that he is untreatable. You have stated that he is beyond help. That is a remarkable diagnostic ability you have there. But even if you were right, you've still not addressed the issue of what happens at the end of his sentence, an issue which wouldn't exist if he'd been sectioned instead. So I'll ask you again Rich - what happens after he's served his time and is released?[/p][/quote]Unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball, unlike yourself who seems to know exactly how this person will react to treatment, if it be in prison or an institution. The fact that he could of killed a number of people and he is a danger to society seems to been forgotten. But hey although you claim not to be an expert, you certainly have the answers. The judge is in the best position to cast sentence, one which I agree with.[/p][/quote]Way to miss the point there. I'll put it reeeeeaaaally simply for you: Sentenced to prison, he gets released after a set period of time. Sectioned, he gets released when he no longer poses a risk. Come on Richy-boy! Try and join the dots! Do your special "thinking face" if you need to. I BELIEVE in you Richy, you CAN do it![/p][/quote]I'm not interfering here, but if prison staff feel he poses a risk to society on his release, can they not arrange for an outside Institution to help even if it is voluntary? This may give prison enough time to convince him he needs help. I'll never forget the day I witnessed a lady in our road who was having a breakdown, she attempted to drive her car between two houses to park the car in her back garden, she then jumped off a garage and killed herself. Such a waste of life when we know we can help these people.[/p][/quote]It's a reasonable suggestion on the face of it IronLady, but the problem is simply that prison is not a good place for someone with mental health issues to be. They are surrounded by angry, aggressive men, and deprived of dignity and respect. These things are not conducive to mental recovery. It's the very opposite of what's termed a 'therapeutic environment'. The stats and research on mental health in prison, and on prison's effect on mental health, are frightening. cantthinkofone

8:58pm Wed 31 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

Ps - Sorry to hear what you witnessed by the way, and I agree very much about the waste. Mental health issues are still very badly understood by the public and still retain a dreadful stigma. In addition, mental health patients are usually, by definition, unable to effectively speak out for themselves. The likes of Steven Fry, Paul Merton, and more recently Stan Collymore, have made some steps towards addressing this, but there's still a very long way to go.

As a result, mental health services are drastically underfunded. The services aren't available to those that need them, when they need them, for the length of time they need them. And people die needlessly because of it.

Consider this - a mental health support worker, looking after some of the most vulnerable people in our communities, often earns less than the guy asking whether you want fries with that at the burger place. It's a dreadful reflection upon our values and priorities as a society.
Ps - Sorry to hear what you witnessed by the way, and I agree very much about the waste. Mental health issues are still very badly understood by the public and still retain a dreadful stigma. In addition, mental health patients are usually, by definition, unable to effectively speak out for themselves. The likes of Steven Fry, Paul Merton, and more recently Stan Collymore, have made some steps towards addressing this, but there's still a very long way to go. As a result, mental health services are drastically underfunded. The services aren't available to those that need them, when they need them, for the length of time they need them. And people die needlessly because of it. Consider this - a mental health support worker, looking after some of the most vulnerable people in our communities, often earns less than the guy asking whether you want fries with that at the burger place. It's a dreadful reflection upon our values and priorities as a society. cantthinkofone

10:28pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Georgem says...

Huey wrote:
Georgem wrote:
Huey wrote:
Linesman wrote:
Huey wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk
An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.
Ok we'll send him round to live with you then, seeing as you are so concerned. Keep the matches hidden and turn your gas off.
Or how about the state takes care of him? Did that not occur to you?
HA good luck with that!
That state doesn't give a fig, else he would have been dealt with a long time ago, not like these are new problems are they now?
At best, he'll be released to be yet another nutter walking the streets, at worse he'll kill himself and others in a fire.
What a waste of space.
Good job there are right-thinking people such as yourself around, then, to make sure things get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse.
[quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Georgem[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: let him kill himself if he wants to die so badly, let's not waste any more time on the jerk[/p][/quote]An example of today's caring society. I hope that society does not take that attitude should you find yourself in need of help, and with the sick response that you have given, that may not be far off.[/p][/quote]Ok we'll send him round to live with you then, seeing as you are so concerned. Keep the matches hidden and turn your gas off.[/p][/quote]Or how about the state takes care of him? Did that not occur to you?[/p][/quote]HA good luck with that! That state doesn't give a fig, else he would have been dealt with a long time ago, not like these are new problems are they now? At best, he'll be released to be yet another nutter walking the streets, at worse he'll kill himself and others in a fire. What a waste of space.[/p][/quote]Good job there are right-thinking people such as yourself around, then, to make sure things get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. Georgem

10:29pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Georgem says...

ITT: morons.
ITT: morons. Georgem

1:37pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Winchester News says...

Check out Winchester News Online's report on this story, a full week before this was published on the Echo: http://www.youtube.c
om/watch?v=NcYC8V3SD
QU&t=7m13s
Check out Winchester News Online's report on this story, a full week before this was published on the Echo: http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=NcYC8V3SD QU&t=7m13s Winchester News

Comments are closed on this article.

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