Council tax hikes will hit pensioners and families hard

Daily Echo: Hard times ahead for pensioners. Hard times ahead for pensioners.

STRUGGLING pensioners and families face being clobbered by a series of council tax hikes.

The older person’s discount has been officially ditched – and low income households currently exempt will also be forced to pay a contribution. From April, pensioners will have to find hundreds of pounds extra after the Labour administration abandoned the ten per cent council tax discount claimed by 8,250 households.

Coupled with a planned two per cent council tax rise next year, over-65s will be billed at least £100 more each year, rising to £248 for pensioners in larger houses.

In a separate development, compulsory Govern-ment changes also saw 15,000 low income residents in Southamp-ton lose their council tax support scheme from 2014.

Those currently paying nothing will now have to pay 25 per cent of their council tax, while those who have part of their bill paid for them will pay 25 per cent more.

The Labour administration said axing the pensioners’ discount was only fair, claiming working households on the breadline were now bearing the brunt of these Government changes.

The changes have seen councils across the country run their own tax support schemes, with ten per cent less Government funding.

But the Tory group condemned scrapping the pensioners’ discount, introduced during its administration, as “attacking the vulnerable”.

Shadow finance boss Councillor John Hannides, speaking as the hikes were passed at full council, said: “What I do know of this Labour group is that once they are in power they are vindictive to the vulnerable and the old age pensioners. They are being pernicious and plain wrong in their proposals.”

Reg Taylor, chairman of the Itchen Estate Tenants’ and Residents’ Association, said the tax hikes would make life difficult for young and old across his estate.

He said: “This is going to create a lot of hardship.

“I feel sorry for young families trying to bring up children. It will be nightmare for them, whether both or one is working.”

Concern for deprived and older households was echoed across the city.

Pam Matthews, chairman of the Blackbush, Pembery and Wittering Road Tenants’ and Residents’ Association, said: “It is a double whammy for people. They seem to be taking everything away from vulnerable people. They are going after low income, the elderly and the young.”

Comments (19)

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4:50pm Fri 18 Jan 13

Linesman says...

This certainly does seem tough after the way that the Tory Chancellor, George Osborne, hit pensioners in his last budget.

Strange as it may seem, I cannot recall any complaints being made by Councillor John Hannides when that was annouced.

I wonder why.
This certainly does seem tough after the way that the Tory Chancellor, George Osborne, hit pensioners in his last budget. Strange as it may seem, I cannot recall any complaints being made by Councillor John Hannides when that was annouced. I wonder why. Linesman

6:21pm Fri 18 Jan 13

southy says...

the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.
the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same. southy

6:29pm Fri 18 Jan 13

On the inside says...

Only a small number of the richest pensioners get the local discount so only the richest pensioners will lose it. This appears to be beyond the understanding of the Echo.
Only a small number of the richest pensioners get the local discount so only the richest pensioners will lose it. This appears to be beyond the understanding of the Echo. On the inside

6:38pm Fri 18 Jan 13

Paramjit Bahia says...

When NuLabourites in Southampton start taking away what little help was given to pensioners even by members of self confessed ‘Nasty Party’ it should be the time for those socialists who are still stranded within this Conservatised organisation to start facing the fact that NuLabour has moved so much towards right that it cannot be reformed and made to stand for real ‘Labour values’.

Sitting in the public gallery during Council meeting I was shocked on hearing NuLabour Councillors describing old age pensioners as well off and lying through their teeth that they have looked after them well.

Hardly surprising it is the same traitors of old Labour, whose darlings when in power at national level had given 75p per week rise in pension, which was less than even the price of bread.

When Milliband led mob pretends to have learned lessons from having implemented pro rich policies when in power for 13 years, and make few nice sounding anti Tory noises, people should stop taking them seriously.

Because in reality Blair and Brown’s buddies have not changed at all. They are simply trying to fool the public for conning them for votes.

If elected to power they will be even more ruthless right wingers than their Councillors in Southampton.

Only answer to the problem is for all those who still believe in caring compassionate and human values of old Labour to unite under new umbrella and form a brand new party like Labour all over again, which should not try to divide and rule vulnerable groups like pensioners, youngsters and low paid workers etc.
When NuLabourites in Southampton start taking away what little help was given to pensioners even by members of self confessed ‘Nasty Party’ it should be the time for those socialists who are still stranded within this Conservatised organisation to start facing the fact that NuLabour has moved so much towards right that it cannot be reformed and made to stand for real ‘Labour values’. Sitting in the public gallery during Council meeting I was shocked on hearing NuLabour Councillors describing old age pensioners as well off and lying through their teeth that they have looked after them well. Hardly surprising it is the same traitors of old Labour, whose darlings when in power at national level had given 75p per week rise in pension, which was less than even the price of bread. When Milliband led mob pretends to have learned lessons from having implemented pro rich policies when in power for 13 years, and make few nice sounding anti Tory noises, people should stop taking them seriously. Because in reality Blair and Brown’s buddies have not changed at all. They are simply trying to fool the public for conning them for votes. If elected to power they will be even more ruthless right wingers than their Councillors in Southampton. Only answer to the problem is for all those who still believe in caring compassionate and human values of old Labour to unite under new umbrella and form a brand new party like Labour all over again, which should not try to divide and rule vulnerable groups like pensioners, youngsters and low paid workers etc. Paramjit Bahia

6:52pm Fri 18 Jan 13

Paramjit Bahia says...

Linesman wrote:
This certainly does seem tough after the way that the Tory Chancellor, George Osborne, hit pensioners in his last budget.

Strange as it may seem, I cannot recall any complaints being made by Councillor John Hannides when that was annouced.

I wonder why.
Because it may have been politically convenient for Cllr. Hannidies not to mention what his party along with LibDem is doing at national level, just like when NuLabour's national leadership criticises Tories in parliament also do not mention the dirty deeds of their councillors in Southampton and probably in few other councils as well.

In short ‘Political Dishonesty’ which is putting people off our democratic institutions.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: This certainly does seem tough after the way that the Tory Chancellor, George Osborne, hit pensioners in his last budget. Strange as it may seem, I cannot recall any complaints being made by Councillor John Hannides when that was annouced. I wonder why.[/p][/quote]Because it may have been politically convenient for Cllr. Hannidies not to mention what his party along with LibDem is doing at national level, just like when NuLabour's national leadership criticises Tories in parliament also do not mention the dirty deeds of their councillors in Southampton and probably in few other councils as well. In short ‘Political Dishonesty’ which is putting people off our democratic institutions. Paramjit Bahia

7:13pm Fri 18 Jan 13

Paramjit Bahia says...

On the inside wrote:
Only a small number of the richest pensioners get the local discount so only the richest pensioners will lose it. This appears to be beyond the understanding of the Echo.
At the Council meeting Tory Cllr. Smith quoted the figures to prove that majority of pensioners who got 10% discount were not living in higher tax band houses and posh areas like Bassett but in lower band properties in other areas.

If what you are writing with inside knowledge is true, then why NONE of the NuLabour Councillors challenged Cllr. Smith?

As you are aware I am not ever likely to support Tories, but as believer in Labour values I am only trying to be fair. So ask you why your councillors (which may even include you, but we will never know as you are hiding behind pseudonym) could not refute Cllr. Smith? Not even when he called NuLabourite 'LIAR' in Council chamber, while waving a copy of some document of NuLabour in his hand?
[quote][p][bold]On the inside[/bold] wrote: Only a small number of the richest pensioners get the local discount so only the richest pensioners will lose it. This appears to be beyond the understanding of the Echo.[/p][/quote]At the Council meeting Tory Cllr. Smith quoted the figures to prove that majority of pensioners who got 10% discount were not living in higher tax band houses and posh areas like Bassett but in lower band properties in other areas. If what you are writing with inside knowledge is true, then why NONE of the NuLabour Councillors challenged Cllr. Smith? As you are aware I am not ever likely to support Tories, but as believer in Labour values I am only trying to be fair. So ask you why your councillors (which may even include you, but we will never know as you are hiding behind pseudonym) could not refute Cllr. Smith? Not even when he called NuLabourite 'LIAR' in Council chamber, while waving a copy of some document of NuLabour in his hand? Paramjit Bahia

7:28pm Fri 18 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.
.. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts.

Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.[/p][/quote].. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts. Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books? freefinker

8:13pm Fri 18 Jan 13

southy says...

freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.
.. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts.

Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?
Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.[/p][/quote].. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts. Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?[/p][/quote]Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard southy

8:56pm Fri 18 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.
.. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts.

Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?
Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard
.. oh no I wouldn't.

And your irrelevant comment is not an answer to my question, is it?

Come on, how do you pay the teachers, social workers and dustmen when the money has all gone?

Surely, TUSC’s ‘No Cuts’ slogan was fully costed before you launched it on the public and requested our vote? Wasn’t it?
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.[/p][/quote].. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts. Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?[/p][/quote]Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard[/p][/quote].. oh no I wouldn't. And your irrelevant comment is not an answer to my question, is it? Come on, how do you pay the teachers, social workers and dustmen when the money has all gone? Surely, TUSC’s ‘No Cuts’ slogan was fully costed before you launched it on the public and requested our vote? Wasn’t it? freefinker

10:51pm Fri 18 Jan 13

Linesman says...

southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.
.. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts.

Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?
Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard
Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others.

Put up or shut up.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.[/p][/quote].. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts. Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?[/p][/quote]Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard[/p][/quote]Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others. Put up or shut up. Linesman

12:37am Sat 19 Jan 13

IronLady2010 says...

Can we claim a discount for each time green waste collections are missed.
Can we claim a discount for each time green waste collections are missed. IronLady2010

9:18am Sat 19 Jan 13

FoysCornerBoy says...

The cost to the local taxpayer of keeping the pensioners' discount is £1 millon per year. Which Council services should be cut - on top of those already under threat from central Government cutbacks - in order to pay for this?
Personally I think that this money might be better spent on protecting services that benefit ALL the City's pensioners e.g. in terms of subsidies to bus services, library opening hours, advice and information services etc.

I'm also worried about how opinions are polarising between those who wish to protect some pensioners interests (largely for narrow party political gain) and the pending social upheavals that will inevitably arise from proposed cuts in services for young people.

People of all ages in this City need to pull together and stand up to the real villain of the peace - the coalition government.
The cost to the local taxpayer of keeping the pensioners' discount is £1 millon per year. Which Council services should be cut - on top of those already under threat from central Government cutbacks - in order to pay for this? Personally I think that this money might be better spent on protecting services that benefit ALL the City's pensioners e.g. in terms of subsidies to bus services, library opening hours, advice and information services etc. I'm also worried about how opinions are polarising between those who wish to protect some pensioners interests (largely for narrow party political gain) and the pending social upheavals that will inevitably arise from proposed cuts in services for young people. People of all ages in this City need to pull together and stand up to the real villain of the peace - the coalition government. FoysCornerBoy

10:08am Sat 19 Jan 13

freefinker says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
Can we claim a discount for each time green waste collections are missed.
.. I'd be a rich person if we could.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: Can we claim a discount for each time green waste collections are missed.[/p][/quote].. I'd be a rich person if we could. freefinker

11:09am Sat 19 Jan 13

southy says...

Linesman wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.
.. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts.

Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?
Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard
Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others.

Put up or shut up.
Lines Nick chaffy stood up in the council cambers and spoke to the councillors put foreward a needs budget alternitaive budget, and it was not just the once he done it a number of times going back before the Labour took recontrol of the city council, the councils both Labour and Tory controlled councils did not even concider it, they just voted on cuts and more cuts.
We dont have leaders in our councils we have followers. team players to capitalism.
now if you don't beleive me ask Paramjit Bahia, or mail the echo as I know both was there many a times when Nick stood up in the Council Chambers and gave the alternitaive budget.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.[/p][/quote].. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts. Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?[/p][/quote]Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard[/p][/quote]Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others. Put up or shut up.[/p][/quote]Lines Nick chaffy stood up in the council cambers and spoke to the councillors put foreward a needs budget alternitaive budget, and it was not just the once he done it a number of times going back before the Labour took recontrol of the city council, the councils both Labour and Tory controlled councils did not even concider it, they just voted on cuts and more cuts. We dont have leaders in our councils we have followers. team players to capitalism. now if you don't beleive me ask Paramjit Bahia, or mail the echo as I know both was there many a times when Nick stood up in the Council Chambers and gave the alternitaive budget. southy

11:13am Sat 19 Jan 13

southy says...

FoysCornerBoy the problem is Apathy its been breed into people.
FoysCornerBoy the problem is Apathy its been breed into people. southy

11:49am Sat 19 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
Linesman wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.
.. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts.

Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?
Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard
Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others.

Put up or shut up.
Lines Nick chaffy stood up in the council cambers and spoke to the councillors put foreward a needs budget alternitaive budget, and it was not just the once he done it a number of times going back before the Labour took recontrol of the city council, the councils both Labour and Tory controlled councils did not even concider it, they just voted on cuts and more cuts.
We dont have leaders in our councils we have followers. team players to capitalism.
now if you don't beleive me ask Paramjit Bahia, or mail the echo as I know both was there many a times when Nick stood up in the Council Chambers and gave the alternitaive budget.
.. southy, I don't doubt Nick Chaffy stood up and delivered a speech on the city budget, this year, last year, whatever. That he did so does not answer the question I have been asking you for the last 3 months or so.

Tell us how you will balance the budget.

'No Cuts' means you spend as much as the previous year plus inflation.

Income is determined by central government. That is decreasing, year on year.

Result - a shortfall in income.

All I have been asking for a long while now is HOW will you bridge this excess of expenditure over income.

I'm sure TUSC must have researched this before asking us to vote for them. So, what is the answer?
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.[/p][/quote].. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts. Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?[/p][/quote]Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard[/p][/quote]Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others. Put up or shut up.[/p][/quote]Lines Nick chaffy stood up in the council cambers and spoke to the councillors put foreward a needs budget alternitaive budget, and it was not just the once he done it a number of times going back before the Labour took recontrol of the city council, the councils both Labour and Tory controlled councils did not even concider it, they just voted on cuts and more cuts. We dont have leaders in our councils we have followers. team players to capitalism. now if you don't beleive me ask Paramjit Bahia, or mail the echo as I know both was there many a times when Nick stood up in the Council Chambers and gave the alternitaive budget.[/p][/quote].. southy, I don't doubt Nick Chaffy stood up and delivered a speech on the city budget, this year, last year, whatever. That he did so does not answer the question I have been asking you for the last 3 months or so. Tell us how you will balance the budget. 'No Cuts' means you spend as much as the previous year plus inflation. Income is determined by central government. That is decreasing, year on year. Result - a shortfall in income. All I have been asking for a long while now is HOW will you bridge this excess of expenditure over income. I'm sure TUSC must have researched this before asking us to vote for them. So, what is the answer? freefinker

12:53pm Sat 19 Jan 13

southy says...

freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
Linesman wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.
.. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts.

Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?
Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard
Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others.

Put up or shut up.
Lines Nick chaffy stood up in the council cambers and spoke to the councillors put foreward a needs budget alternitaive budget, and it was not just the once he done it a number of times going back before the Labour took recontrol of the city council, the councils both Labour and Tory controlled councils did not even concider it, they just voted on cuts and more cuts.
We dont have leaders in our councils we have followers. team players to capitalism.
now if you don't beleive me ask Paramjit Bahia, or mail the echo as I know both was there many a times when Nick stood up in the Council Chambers and gave the alternitaive budget.
.. southy, I don't doubt Nick Chaffy stood up and delivered a speech on the city budget, this year, last year, whatever. That he did so does not answer the question I have been asking you for the last 3 months or so.

Tell us how you will balance the budget.

'No Cuts' means you spend as much as the previous year plus inflation.

Income is determined by central government. That is decreasing, year on year.

Result - a shortfall in income.

All I have been asking for a long while now is HOW will you bridge this excess of expenditure over income.

I'm sure TUSC must have researched this before asking us to vote for them. So, what is the answer?
They did research it we have a person/s with the groupings that do all the work in this section, final details given to Nick, I have told you this all before.
A needs Budget as been our local manifest for the last 2 local elections that we took part in and if you had read the echo when the Labour Party took recontrol of the Council there first council budget meeting nick stood up in the chambers and said about the what could be done.
Do you realise how much money National Government is holding onto that belongs to the city, that they been getting the interest on to line there pockets with for the last 25 years, its enough to run this city for the next 15 years.
Read Liverpools 1980's Needs Budget and you will have some thing that is close. its where the people come first.
Look ay what happened in Liverpool the people of that city was the winners and not government, so the Councillors bankrupt the city with there needs budget and a government body went there and removed them from office, and the councillors was not allowed to stand in any elections for 5 years. But the Government was force into giving that city an extra £54 million about 1/3rd of what the government was holding that belong to Liverpool city back to the city (we are talking about what the £ levels of the 80's was worth).
It do not matter what ever type of budget is in place, if the city go's bankrupt, then the Government will step in and give that city about 1/3 of what the government is holding onto back to the city, Who are the winners the people of the City are, and thats what counts most off all the people of the city.
We have MP's and Councillors that are followers to government cuts, none are leaders that are willing to put there political career on the line for the sake of the people who they are ment to represent, they all seem to have it back wards now days, putting them selfs before the people.
There are many things to a needs budget, but heres one or two of the things in a needs budget, like a building of homes program, and i not talking about these so call council homes that are really HA homes being built I am talking about real CRH where the rents end up in the council incomes and not to a private sector, Using that spare money that the council is saving and not using, councils have the power to borrow money like Smithy did and spent it on a white elephant that was sear waste, and there are other things also.

On the other side of the coin how is cuts going to balance the books, it is not, all it do is put people out of work so they end up having to claim benefits and also less money go's into the local economy, so more cuts are needed and it carrys on and on cuts and more cuts because the books will never be balance.
We need to fight national goverment at all levels and start taking back what belongs to the city, and not do what we have seen from the councils in the last 25 years just roll over and pleasing the national government.
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.[/p][/quote].. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts. Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?[/p][/quote]Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard[/p][/quote]Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others. Put up or shut up.[/p][/quote]Lines Nick chaffy stood up in the council cambers and spoke to the councillors put foreward a needs budget alternitaive budget, and it was not just the once he done it a number of times going back before the Labour took recontrol of the city council, the councils both Labour and Tory controlled councils did not even concider it, they just voted on cuts and more cuts. We dont have leaders in our councils we have followers. team players to capitalism. now if you don't beleive me ask Paramjit Bahia, or mail the echo as I know both was there many a times when Nick stood up in the Council Chambers and gave the alternitaive budget.[/p][/quote].. southy, I don't doubt Nick Chaffy stood up and delivered a speech on the city budget, this year, last year, whatever. That he did so does not answer the question I have been asking you for the last 3 months or so. Tell us how you will balance the budget. 'No Cuts' means you spend as much as the previous year plus inflation. Income is determined by central government. That is decreasing, year on year. Result - a shortfall in income. All I have been asking for a long while now is HOW will you bridge this excess of expenditure over income. I'm sure TUSC must have researched this before asking us to vote for them. So, what is the answer?[/p][/quote]They did research it we have a person/s with the groupings that do all the work in this section, final details given to Nick, I have told you this all before. A needs Budget as been our local manifest for the last 2 local elections that we took part in and if you had read the echo when the Labour Party took recontrol of the Council there first council budget meeting nick stood up in the chambers and said about the what could be done. Do you realise how much money National Government is holding onto that belongs to the city, that they been getting the interest on to line there pockets with for the last 25 years, its enough to run this city for the next 15 years. Read Liverpools 1980's Needs Budget and you will have some thing that is close. its where the people come first. Look ay what happened in Liverpool the people of that city was the winners and not government, so the Councillors bankrupt the city with there needs budget and a government body went there and removed them from office, and the councillors was not allowed to stand in any elections for 5 years. But the Government was force into giving that city an extra £54 million about 1/3rd of what the government was holding that belong to Liverpool city back to the city (we are talking about what the £ levels of the 80's was worth). It do not matter what ever type of budget is in place, if the city go's bankrupt, then the Government will step in and give that city about 1/3 of what the government is holding onto back to the city, Who are the winners the people of the City are, and thats what counts most off all the people of the city. We have MP's and Councillors that are followers to government cuts, none are leaders that are willing to put there political career on the line for the sake of the people who they are ment to represent, they all seem to have it back wards now days, putting them selfs before the people. There are many things to a needs budget, but heres one or two of the things in a needs budget, like a building of homes program, and i not talking about these so call council homes that are really HA homes being built I am talking about real CRH where the rents end up in the council incomes and not to a private sector, Using that spare money that the council is saving and not using, councils have the power to borrow money like Smithy did and spent it on a white elephant that was sear waste, and there are other things also. On the other side of the coin how is cuts going to balance the books, it is not, all it do is put people out of work so they end up having to claim benefits and also less money go's into the local economy, so more cuts are needed and it carrys on and on cuts and more cuts because the books will never be balance. We need to fight national goverment at all levels and start taking back what belongs to the city, and not do what we have seen from the councils in the last 25 years just roll over and pleasing the national government. southy

3:33pm Sat 19 Jan 13

freefinker says...

southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
Linesman wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.
.. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts.

Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?
Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard
Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others.

Put up or shut up.
Lines Nick chaffy stood up in the council cambers and spoke to the councillors put foreward a needs budget alternitaive budget, and it was not just the once he done it a number of times going back before the Labour took recontrol of the city council, the councils both Labour and Tory controlled councils did not even concider it, they just voted on cuts and more cuts.
We dont have leaders in our councils we have followers. team players to capitalism.
now if you don't beleive me ask Paramjit Bahia, or mail the echo as I know both was there many a times when Nick stood up in the Council Chambers and gave the alternitaive budget.
.. southy, I don't doubt Nick Chaffy stood up and delivered a speech on the city budget, this year, last year, whatever. That he did so does not answer the question I have been asking you for the last 3 months or so.

Tell us how you will balance the budget.

'No Cuts' means you spend as much as the previous year plus inflation.

Income is determined by central government. That is decreasing, year on year.

Result - a shortfall in income.

All I have been asking for a long while now is HOW will you bridge this excess of expenditure over income.

I'm sure TUSC must have researched this before asking us to vote for them. So, what is the answer?
They did research it we have a person/s with the groupings that do all the work in this section, final details given to Nick, I have told you this all before.
A needs Budget as been our local manifest for the last 2 local elections that we took part in and if you had read the echo when the Labour Party took recontrol of the Council there first council budget meeting nick stood up in the chambers and said about the what could be done.
Do you realise how much money National Government is holding onto that belongs to the city, that they been getting the interest on to line there pockets with for the last 25 years, its enough to run this city for the next 15 years.
Read Liverpools 1980's Needs Budget and you will have some thing that is close. its where the people come first.
Look ay what happened in Liverpool the people of that city was the winners and not government, so the Councillors bankrupt the city with there needs budget and a government body went there and removed them from office, and the councillors was not allowed to stand in any elections for 5 years. But the Government was force into giving that city an extra £54 million about 1/3rd of what the government was holding that belong to Liverpool city back to the city (we are talking about what the £ levels of the 80's was worth).
It do not matter what ever type of budget is in place, if the city go's bankrupt, then the Government will step in and give that city about 1/3 of what the government is holding onto back to the city, Who are the winners the people of the City are, and thats what counts most off all the people of the city.
We have MP's and Councillors that are followers to government cuts, none are leaders that are willing to put there political career on the line for the sake of the people who they are ment to represent, they all seem to have it back wards now days, putting them selfs before the people.
There are many things to a needs budget, but heres one or two of the things in a needs budget, like a building of homes program, and i not talking about these so call council homes that are really HA homes being built I am talking about real CRH where the rents end up in the council incomes and not to a private sector, Using that spare money that the council is saving and not using, councils have the power to borrow money like Smithy did and spent it on a white elephant that was sear waste, and there are other things also.

On the other side of the coin how is cuts going to balance the books, it is not, all it do is put people out of work so they end up having to claim benefits and also less money go's into the local economy, so more cuts are needed and it carrys on and on cuts and more cuts because the books will never be balance.
We need to fight national goverment at all levels and start taking back what belongs to the city, and not do what we have seen from the councils in the last 25 years just roll over and pleasing the national government.
.. so, still no answer.

But your invention, the imaginary 'Needs Budget' gets its second outing of the month - well done southy. Keep mentioning it often enough and perhaps by magic it may actually materialise as reality.

Liverpool 1985/6 got an extra £20m (not £54m) specifically for housing needs. This didn’t really affect the Militant dominated council because this was just a drop in the ocean compared to the total spend. They still went bankrupt despite this small addition. And, just like I predict for Southampton should TUSC’s ‘No Cuts’ slogan ever be adopted, the council ran out of money and issued redundancy notices to all its staff in December.

Needless to say, the Trotskyist entryists of Militant Tendency were swept form power by the electorate at the first available opportunity – never to return again, ever.

Now, back to the present – how will TUSC avoid the calamity of mid-80’s Liverpool and balance the budget in Southampton if ‘No Cuts’ becomes the policy.

You still haven’t answered.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.[/p][/quote].. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts. Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?[/p][/quote]Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard[/p][/quote]Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others. Put up or shut up.[/p][/quote]Lines Nick chaffy stood up in the council cambers and spoke to the councillors put foreward a needs budget alternitaive budget, and it was not just the once he done it a number of times going back before the Labour took recontrol of the city council, the councils both Labour and Tory controlled councils did not even concider it, they just voted on cuts and more cuts. We dont have leaders in our councils we have followers. team players to capitalism. now if you don't beleive me ask Paramjit Bahia, or mail the echo as I know both was there many a times when Nick stood up in the Council Chambers and gave the alternitaive budget.[/p][/quote].. southy, I don't doubt Nick Chaffy stood up and delivered a speech on the city budget, this year, last year, whatever. That he did so does not answer the question I have been asking you for the last 3 months or so. Tell us how you will balance the budget. 'No Cuts' means you spend as much as the previous year plus inflation. Income is determined by central government. That is decreasing, year on year. Result - a shortfall in income. All I have been asking for a long while now is HOW will you bridge this excess of expenditure over income. I'm sure TUSC must have researched this before asking us to vote for them. So, what is the answer?[/p][/quote]They did research it we have a person/s with the groupings that do all the work in this section, final details given to Nick, I have told you this all before. A needs Budget as been our local manifest for the last 2 local elections that we took part in and if you had read the echo when the Labour Party took recontrol of the Council there first council budget meeting nick stood up in the chambers and said about the what could be done. Do you realise how much money National Government is holding onto that belongs to the city, that they been getting the interest on to line there pockets with for the last 25 years, its enough to run this city for the next 15 years. Read Liverpools 1980's Needs Budget and you will have some thing that is close. its where the people come first. Look ay what happened in Liverpool the people of that city was the winners and not government, so the Councillors bankrupt the city with there needs budget and a government body went there and removed them from office, and the councillors was not allowed to stand in any elections for 5 years. But the Government was force into giving that city an extra £54 million about 1/3rd of what the government was holding that belong to Liverpool city back to the city (we are talking about what the £ levels of the 80's was worth). It do not matter what ever type of budget is in place, if the city go's bankrupt, then the Government will step in and give that city about 1/3 of what the government is holding onto back to the city, Who are the winners the people of the City are, and thats what counts most off all the people of the city. We have MP's and Councillors that are followers to government cuts, none are leaders that are willing to put there political career on the line for the sake of the people who they are ment to represent, they all seem to have it back wards now days, putting them selfs before the people. There are many things to a needs budget, but heres one or two of the things in a needs budget, like a building of homes program, and i not talking about these so call council homes that are really HA homes being built I am talking about real CRH where the rents end up in the council incomes and not to a private sector, Using that spare money that the council is saving and not using, councils have the power to borrow money like Smithy did and spent it on a white elephant that was sear waste, and there are other things also. On the other side of the coin how is cuts going to balance the books, it is not, all it do is put people out of work so they end up having to claim benefits and also less money go's into the local economy, so more cuts are needed and it carrys on and on cuts and more cuts because the books will never be balance. We need to fight national goverment at all levels and start taking back what belongs to the city, and not do what we have seen from the councils in the last 25 years just roll over and pleasing the national government.[/p][/quote].. so, still no answer. But your invention, the imaginary 'Needs Budget' gets its second outing of the month - well done southy. Keep mentioning it often enough and perhaps by magic it may actually materialise as reality. Liverpool 1985/6 got an extra £20m (not £54m) specifically for housing needs. This didn’t really affect the Militant dominated council because this was just a drop in the ocean compared to the total spend. They still went bankrupt despite this small addition. And, just like I predict for Southampton should TUSC’s ‘No Cuts’ slogan ever be adopted, the council ran out of money and issued redundancy notices to all its staff in December. Needless to say, the Trotskyist entryists of Militant Tendency were swept form power by the electorate at the first available opportunity – never to return again, ever. Now, back to the present – how will TUSC avoid the calamity of mid-80’s Liverpool and balance the budget in Southampton if ‘No Cuts’ becomes the policy. You still haven’t answered. freefinker

12:45pm Sun 20 Jan 13

southy says...

freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
Linesman wrote:
southy wrote:
freefinker wrote:
southy wrote:
the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.
.. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts.

Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?
Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard
Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others.

Put up or shut up.
Lines Nick chaffy stood up in the council cambers and spoke to the councillors put foreward a needs budget alternitaive budget, and it was not just the once he done it a number of times going back before the Labour took recontrol of the city council, the councils both Labour and Tory controlled councils did not even concider it, they just voted on cuts and more cuts.
We dont have leaders in our councils we have followers. team players to capitalism.
now if you don't beleive me ask Paramjit Bahia, or mail the echo as I know both was there many a times when Nick stood up in the Council Chambers and gave the alternitaive budget.
.. southy, I don't doubt Nick Chaffy stood up and delivered a speech on the city budget, this year, last year, whatever. That he did so does not answer the question I have been asking you for the last 3 months or so.

Tell us how you will balance the budget.

'No Cuts' means you spend as much as the previous year plus inflation.

Income is determined by central government. That is decreasing, year on year.

Result - a shortfall in income.

All I have been asking for a long while now is HOW will you bridge this excess of expenditure over income.

I'm sure TUSC must have researched this before asking us to vote for them. So, what is the answer?
They did research it we have a person/s with the groupings that do all the work in this section, final details given to Nick, I have told you this all before.
A needs Budget as been our local manifest for the last 2 local elections that we took part in and if you had read the echo when the Labour Party took recontrol of the Council there first council budget meeting nick stood up in the chambers and said about the what could be done.
Do you realise how much money National Government is holding onto that belongs to the city, that they been getting the interest on to line there pockets with for the last 25 years, its enough to run this city for the next 15 years.
Read Liverpools 1980's Needs Budget and you will have some thing that is close. its where the people come first.
Look ay what happened in Liverpool the people of that city was the winners and not government, so the Councillors bankrupt the city with there needs budget and a government body went there and removed them from office, and the councillors was not allowed to stand in any elections for 5 years. But the Government was force into giving that city an extra £54 million about 1/3rd of what the government was holding that belong to Liverpool city back to the city (we are talking about what the £ levels of the 80's was worth).
It do not matter what ever type of budget is in place, if the city go's bankrupt, then the Government will step in and give that city about 1/3 of what the government is holding onto back to the city, Who are the winners the people of the City are, and thats what counts most off all the people of the city.
We have MP's and Councillors that are followers to government cuts, none are leaders that are willing to put there political career on the line for the sake of the people who they are ment to represent, they all seem to have it back wards now days, putting them selfs before the people.
There are many things to a needs budget, but heres one or two of the things in a needs budget, like a building of homes program, and i not talking about these so call council homes that are really HA homes being built I am talking about real CRH where the rents end up in the council incomes and not to a private sector, Using that spare money that the council is saving and not using, councils have the power to borrow money like Smithy did and spent it on a white elephant that was sear waste, and there are other things also.

On the other side of the coin how is cuts going to balance the books, it is not, all it do is put people out of work so they end up having to claim benefits and also less money go's into the local economy, so more cuts are needed and it carrys on and on cuts and more cuts because the books will never be balance.
We need to fight national goverment at all levels and start taking back what belongs to the city, and not do what we have seen from the councils in the last 25 years just roll over and pleasing the national government.
.. so, still no answer.

But your invention, the imaginary 'Needs Budget' gets its second outing of the month - well done southy. Keep mentioning it often enough and perhaps by magic it may actually materialise as reality.

Liverpool 1985/6 got an extra £20m (not £54m) specifically for housing needs. This didn’t really affect the Militant dominated council because this was just a drop in the ocean compared to the total spend. They still went bankrupt despite this small addition. And, just like I predict for Southampton should TUSC’s ‘No Cuts’ slogan ever be adopted, the council ran out of money and issued redundancy notices to all its staff in December.

Needless to say, the Trotskyist entryists of Militant Tendency were swept form power by the electorate at the first available opportunity – never to return again, ever.

Now, back to the present – how will TUSC avoid the calamity of mid-80’s Liverpool and balance the budget in Southampton if ‘No Cuts’ becomes the policy.

You still haven’t answered.
Correction Liverpool got £54 million £20 million was for housing like you said, the also got money for roads, building industary for jobs and things like clubs, librarys and other social needs, the total was £54 million in all, about 1/3 that the Thatcher government was holding on to.

The winners was the people and not the political system, and that only happened because of the Socialist Councillors was willing to put there Political career on the line, set a needs budget in operation that made the city bankrupt, the government body moved in removed the councillors and then got the £54 million from government, those councillors was not allowed to stand in any elections for 5 years, Southampton council at the time was 1 of 9 other councils that said they will stick together with Liverpool and do the same things, but when it came to implent a needs budget all the councils back off and went with the government cuts leaving Liverpool all on there own to implent the the needs budget.
You been told before free, first thing you need to do is not cause a slump in the local economy so that mean no job loses and no lost in wage earnings, you want people to carry on spending in the local economy in the same way and not having to claim benefits like housing or council tax reductions, if they have to claim that means less coming in and more going out.
Making any form of cuts will not balance the books it never have done and never will do, it just makes it worse and having to come back and make more cuts, what you got to do is put your political career on the line and fight the Government for the money that belongs to the city.
There is no point in trying to balance the books because that will not happen while government is holding onto most of the city money.
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: the TUSC did warn some thin g like this would happing under a Tory or a Labour adminastration, and it don't matter if its Local or national the out come will be the same.[/p][/quote].. need I remind you, southy, I am STILL waiting for you to explain how you would balance the city budget with your 'No Cuts' slogan/policy; when it is coupled with a dramatic fall in funds due to central government cuts. Where does the extra money come from? No more irrelevant waffle and procrastination please, just tell us how you will balance the books?[/p][/quote]Turn up at council meetings and you would of heard[/p][/quote]Come on southy, you are quick to criticise others. Put up or shut up.[/p][/quote]Lines Nick chaffy stood up in the council cambers and spoke to the councillors put foreward a needs budget alternitaive budget, and it was not just the once he done it a number of times going back before the Labour took recontrol of the city council, the councils both Labour and Tory controlled councils did not even concider it, they just voted on cuts and more cuts. We dont have leaders in our councils we have followers. team players to capitalism. now if you don't beleive me ask Paramjit Bahia, or mail the echo as I know both was there many a times when Nick stood up in the Council Chambers and gave the alternitaive budget.[/p][/quote].. southy, I don't doubt Nick Chaffy stood up and delivered a speech on the city budget, this year, last year, whatever. That he did so does not answer the question I have been asking you for the last 3 months or so. Tell us how you will balance the budget. 'No Cuts' means you spend as much as the previous year plus inflation. Income is determined by central government. That is decreasing, year on year. Result - a shortfall in income. All I have been asking for a long while now is HOW will you bridge this excess of expenditure over income. I'm sure TUSC must have researched this before asking us to vote for them. So, what is the answer?[/p][/quote]They did research it we have a person/s with the groupings that do all the work in this section, final details given to Nick, I have told you this all before. A needs Budget as been our local manifest for the last 2 local elections that we took part in and if you had read the echo when the Labour Party took recontrol of the Council there first council budget meeting nick stood up in the chambers and said about the what could be done. Do you realise how much money National Government is holding onto that belongs to the city, that they been getting the interest on to line there pockets with for the last 25 years, its enough to run this city for the next 15 years. Read Liverpools 1980's Needs Budget and you will have some thing that is close. its where the people come first. Look ay what happened in Liverpool the people of that city was the winners and not government, so the Councillors bankrupt the city with there needs budget and a government body went there and removed them from office, and the councillors was not allowed to stand in any elections for 5 years. But the Government was force into giving that city an extra £54 million about 1/3rd of what the government was holding that belong to Liverpool city back to the city (we are talking about what the £ levels of the 80's was worth). It do not matter what ever type of budget is in place, if the city go's bankrupt, then the Government will step in and give that city about 1/3 of what the government is holding onto back to the city, Who are the winners the people of the City are, and thats what counts most off all the people of the city. We have MP's and Councillors that are followers to government cuts, none are leaders that are willing to put there political career on the line for the sake of the people who they are ment to represent, they all seem to have it back wards now days, putting them selfs before the people. There are many things to a needs budget, but heres one or two of the things in a needs budget, like a building of homes program, and i not talking about these so call council homes that are really HA homes being built I am talking about real CRH where the rents end up in the council incomes and not to a private sector, Using that spare money that the council is saving and not using, councils have the power to borrow money like Smithy did and spent it on a white elephant that was sear waste, and there are other things also. On the other side of the coin how is cuts going to balance the books, it is not, all it do is put people out of work so they end up having to claim benefits and also less money go's into the local economy, so more cuts are needed and it carrys on and on cuts and more cuts because the books will never be balance. We need to fight national goverment at all levels and start taking back what belongs to the city, and not do what we have seen from the councils in the last 25 years just roll over and pleasing the national government.[/p][/quote].. so, still no answer. But your invention, the imaginary 'Needs Budget' gets its second outing of the month - well done southy. Keep mentioning it often enough and perhaps by magic it may actually materialise as reality. Liverpool 1985/6 got an extra £20m (not £54m) specifically for housing needs. This didn’t really affect the Militant dominated council because this was just a drop in the ocean compared to the total spend. They still went bankrupt despite this small addition. And, just like I predict for Southampton should TUSC’s ‘No Cuts’ slogan ever be adopted, the council ran out of money and issued redundancy notices to all its staff in December. Needless to say, the Trotskyist entryists of Militant Tendency were swept form power by the electorate at the first available opportunity – never to return again, ever. Now, back to the present – how will TUSC avoid the calamity of mid-80’s Liverpool and balance the budget in Southampton if ‘No Cuts’ becomes the policy. You still haven’t answered.[/p][/quote]Correction Liverpool got £54 million £20 million was for housing like you said, the also got money for roads, building industary for jobs and things like clubs, librarys and other social needs, the total was £54 million in all, about 1/3 that the Thatcher government was holding on to. The winners was the people and not the political system, and that only happened because of the Socialist Councillors was willing to put there Political career on the line, set a needs budget in operation that made the city bankrupt, the government body moved in removed the councillors and then got the £54 million from government, those councillors was not allowed to stand in any elections for 5 years, Southampton council at the time was 1 of 9 other councils that said they will stick together with Liverpool and do the same things, but when it came to implent a needs budget all the councils back off and went with the government cuts leaving Liverpool all on there own to implent the the needs budget. You been told before free, first thing you need to do is not cause a slump in the local economy so that mean no job loses and no lost in wage earnings, you want people to carry on spending in the local economy in the same way and not having to claim benefits like housing or council tax reductions, if they have to claim that means less coming in and more going out. Making any form of cuts will not balance the books it never have done and never will do, it just makes it worse and having to come back and make more cuts, what you got to do is put your political career on the line and fight the Government for the money that belongs to the city. There is no point in trying to balance the books because that will not happen while government is holding onto most of the city money. southy

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