Is a tight-knit community enough to save the local pub as more and more call last orders?

Daily Echo: The Woodman, one of Southampton's dissapearing pubs. The Woodman, one of Southampton's dissapearing pubs.

HAVING a pint down at the local is as quintessentially English as afternoon tea, or the Queen.

But with competition from supermarkets offering cut-price alcohol and successive governments targeting beer and wine for tax revenues, the future of the industry hangs in the balance.

Hardly a week seems to go by without a threat to yet another pub. Scores have been turned into shops and homes as breweries, owners and landlords across Southampton and Hampshire give up the ghost.

The Campaign for Real Ale (Camra) says 26 pubs close each week and there is no sign of a slowdown in pub bosses calling last orders on their businesses.

But many people are unwilling to give up their pub without a fight. They are still seen as a landmark, a community asset and a focal point for the neighbourhood.

Some of these battles have been successful, but more have not, meaning the disappearance of a multitude of famous names from our streets.

So is this an industry in terminal decline? Does the golden age of the pub belong in the past? Is there anything that can be done to reverse the trend of closures?

Daily Echo: Regulars celebrate after saving The Bittern.

One man trying to buck the trend is Glen McInnes, landlord of The Bittern in Southampton, which is under threat of being turned into a McDonald’s.

Regulars and community figures have rallied together to try and save the pub and have been backed by the city council, which has turned down McDonald’s plans on the grounds it was registered as an asset of community value – as reported by the Daily Echo.

Glen feels The Bittern is “weathering the storm” by being the centre of a strong community.

“We’re still profitable business. We have had some of the busiest days in the last few weeks that we have had in years. It’s not all doom and gloom,” he said.

“Our weekends are our bread and butter but we’re doing quite reasonably. Midweek evenings are quieter than the daytimes when we get a lot of the elderly coming in, while the youngsters tend to come in at weekends.

“We’re maintaining our profit levels and keeping our head above water.”

But the uncertain future is certainly not helping them. “Not having an idea of how long we’re here for is not conducive to running a good business,” he said.

Rob Whatley, of Camra, believes landlords need to do more to get punters in and buying pints.

“I think it’s more difficult for pubs to survive in the current climate but there are a number of pubs which are doing very well and it is possible that the pubs have got to adapt to the current conditions and try to find a niche.

“In order to find customers they’ve got to put in more effort to keep their pub going.”

Chris Reich, chairman of the Southampton Licensing Link, which represents landlords in the city, thinks the industry is evolving rather than in decline.

But he said: “There’s no doubt that thousands of pubs have shut over the past few years. I think a lot of it is due to successive governments just taxing and taxing seeing the industry as a golden goose.”

Chris highlighted the fact that attitudes have changed, that many people are heading out to pubs and bars later in the evening.

He said: “You can walk out of a supermarket with 45 lagers for £20, that’s a problem that pubs are labouring against. Supermarkets can sell alcohol and food at a cheaper rate because they don’t have to charge VAT, which pubs do.

“People will go to the supermarket, get their cheap drinks, have a few drinks and then go into the pubs and bars.

“I think people are a lot savvier about where they can get cheap beers from.”

But Chris also said that there is a diverse range of pubs selling a variety of different drinks, from pubs which sell standard beer and lager to others which sell smaller beers.

“I think pubs have evolved a great deal. You look at the overheads that pubs have got – utility prices increasing, national wages, duties, taxes, there aren’t many spit and sawdust pubs anymore.

I don’t see it as an ailing industry. You just have to walk through the city centre and see that it’s not dying, it is changing. It has reduced certainly, but it’s not dying.”

Southampton Itchen MP John Denham has been outspoken in his support for The Bittern and played a big role in the campaign to save it.

He believes the fragility of the industry is down to greedy owners “choking landlords” and less to do with a change of attitudes.

He said: “The truth is there have been some changes in what people are choosing to do but the big problem is the relationship with the pub companies and the landlords which is making it almost impossible for many landlords to make a reasonable living.

“Until there’s a change there, a reasonable cut in prices charged, companies will continue to take too much money out of the businesses.”

The Labour MP said national firms which owned pubs were “property companies that happened to own pubs. If they get a chance to sell it or to lease it, they will do.”

While he accepted there were changes in taste and habits, he was convinced that those who owned their own pub were able to develop a thriving business. He said: “Where people own their businesses I think there’s a good future for them. I fear for the number of pubs that are owned by the big pub companies, I don’t think they will let people earn a decent living.”

The fragile state of the pub trade was highlighted again in the past few days when the Government announced there would not be a blanket approval for pubs to gain a late licence for the forthcoming World Cup – as had been the case previously with royal weddings and the Queen’s diamond jubilee.

With England kicking off their first match after last orders are due to be rung, many pubs would be faced with having to pay £21 for a temporary late licence while councils will be sunk in bureaucracy administering all the applications.

The British Beer and Pub Association, which represents England’s 49,400 pubs and had co-ordinated the bid, believes the extended opening hours could be worth £20m to the pub industry.

However Prime Minister David Cameron has called for a review of this decision and a public consultation.

Comments (34)

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9:38am Sun 9 Feb 14

Inform Al says...

Pubcos are the real propble, perhaps those that are owned by companies like Enterprise Inns should be compulsorally purchased, at the local going business property rate and then either sold off to genuine people who want to run them, or run as a social business by the council.
Pubcos are the real propble, perhaps those that are owned by companies like Enterprise Inns should be compulsorally purchased, at the local going business property rate and then either sold off to genuine people who want to run them, or run as a social business by the council. Inform Al

9:38am Sun 9 Feb 14

cgt says...

Part of the problem is that no planning permission is necessary for turning a pub into an outlet for Tesco or any of the other supermarket chains. If the law were to be changed in this respect the owners of the buildings would be less likely to sell them off.
Part of the problem is that no planning permission is necessary for turning a pub into an outlet for Tesco or any of the other supermarket chains. If the law were to be changed in this respect the owners of the buildings would be less likely to sell them off. cgt

10:02am Sun 9 Feb 14

WILLIAM HAGUES TWIN BROTHER. says...

Banning for life the swaggering drug pushers would be a very good start.
Banning for life the swaggering drug pushers would be a very good start. WILLIAM HAGUES TWIN BROTHER.

10:53am Sun 9 Feb 14

sburman says...

What has happened to the traditional pub?.

- Smoking Ban
- Much cheaper shop booze
- No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ).
- No community to bring together.
- The way pubs are owned

Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills.

I like ale and:
- My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale )
- When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket.
- Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )
What has happened to the traditional pub?. - Smoking Ban - Much cheaper shop booze - No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ). - No community to bring together. - The way pubs are owned Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills. I like ale and: - My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale ) - When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket. - Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke ) sburman

11:04am Sun 9 Feb 14

EarlyRiser says...

'back in the day' we would never miss a Friday & Saturday night in our local, along with the lunchtimes as well. They then opened all day which ruined the social get together as everyone used to go there at the same time eg, Sundays 12 till 2.
Now youngsters go to Asda etc at 7 every Friday night (just go there and look) go back to someone's house and play Xbox or whatever, no social community interaction at all.
Why do they do this - cost. As said above case of beer less than a tenner. In the pub £3.00 ++ a pint. No brainer for them.
Why so expensive ? an example. I run the bar at my local sports club, OK staff are volunteers, but the main reason we can sell cheaper and make good money for the club is purchase price. I pay £93 + VAT for a keg of Fosters. I know a guy in a leased pub near Shirley that has to pay the crooks known as Greene King £150 + VAT.
There are very few free houses anymore, nearly all pubs are tied one way or another to one of the chains, be it Greene King, Enterprise, Punch Taverns etc. They are not brewers, they are property developers. They love it when a pub is failing due to high prices charged for their beer and the ludicrous rents they charge. When the licensee throws in the towel they can sell the asset to Tesco, Macpukeonalds or for flats.
'back in the day' we would never miss a Friday & Saturday night in our local, along with the lunchtimes as well. They then opened all day which ruined the social get together as everyone used to go there at the same time eg, Sundays 12 till 2. Now youngsters go to Asda etc at 7 every Friday night (just go there and look) go back to someone's house and play Xbox or whatever, no social community interaction at all. Why do they do this - cost. As said above case of beer less than a tenner. In the pub £3.00 ++ a pint. No brainer for them. Why so expensive ? an example. I run the bar at my local sports club, OK staff are volunteers, but the main reason we can sell cheaper and make good money for the club is purchase price. I pay £93 + VAT for a keg of Fosters. I know a guy in a leased pub near Shirley that has to pay the crooks known as Greene King £150 + VAT. There are very few free houses anymore, nearly all pubs are tied one way or another to one of the chains, be it Greene King, Enterprise, Punch Taverns etc. They are not brewers, they are property developers. They love it when a pub is failing due to high prices charged for their beer and the ludicrous rents they charge. When the licensee throws in the towel they can sell the asset to Tesco, Macpukeonalds or for flats. EarlyRiser

11:07am Sun 9 Feb 14

SOULJACKER says...

As I have said before, it is all about local community.
Here in the Bevois valley area there are lots of different communities made up of the Indians, the Polish, the Muslims, the Students & the locals who have been round here for years.
None of the above are particularly interested in mixing with the others so they are 'Self serving' communties which just do their own thing & in my book that surely doesn't seem like any type of community that is worth havng anyways.
Community is about knowing & getting on with your neighbour, helping your neighbours, having a kick around & a drink with your neighbour & just being able to walk down the street without being beaten up, forced to walk in the road to get past the local mutants or just plain old intimidated by morons.
Peoples morals are virtually all gone now too.
If you see someone having difficulties in he street then we are most likey gonna cross the road because we assume they are hi on drugs or drunk.
Lastly there are a lot of people renting their houses now & therefore they probably aren't gonna stick around either so won't buid up a friendship.
As I have said before, it is all about local community. Here in the Bevois valley area there are lots of different communities made up of the Indians, the Polish, the Muslims, the Students & the locals who have been round here for years. None of the above are particularly interested in mixing with the others so they are 'Self serving' communties which just do their own thing & in my book that surely doesn't seem like any type of community that is worth havng anyways. Community is about knowing & getting on with your neighbour, helping your neighbours, having a kick around & a drink with your neighbour & just being able to walk down the street without being beaten up, forced to walk in the road to get past the local mutants or just plain old intimidated by morons. Peoples morals are virtually all gone now too. If you see someone having difficulties in he street then we are most likey gonna cross the road because we assume they are hi on drugs or drunk. Lastly there are a lot of people renting their houses now & therefore they probably aren't gonna stick around either so won't buid up a friendship. SOULJACKER

11:37am Sun 9 Feb 14

bigfella777 says...

Why does a sense of "community" have to revolve around drinking alcohol?
They don't have any pubs in Europe but still sell plenty of alcohol from bars, cafes and restaurants.
I was in Budapest a couple of years ago and went to use a launderette and they actually had beer on tap in there. This isn't the 1800's when a weary traveler would seek refuge and refreshment at a nearby inn. Diversify and evolve.
Why does a sense of "community" have to revolve around drinking alcohol? They don't have any pubs in Europe but still sell plenty of alcohol from bars, cafes and restaurants. I was in Budapest a couple of years ago and went to use a launderette and they actually had beer on tap in there. This isn't the 1800's when a weary traveler would seek refuge and refreshment at a nearby inn. Diversify and evolve. bigfella777

12:15pm Sun 9 Feb 14

eurogordi says...

Here are my suggestions for pubs to remain open (but the government, local council and pub chains need to take notice!).

1. Reduce the cost of soft drinks so that drivers are not penalised.

2. Stop large stores selling cheap alcohol ... even better, stop stores selling alcohol and return to the good old fashioned off-license that was often attached to a pub.

3. Allow landlords/ladies to put their own mark on local pubs irrespective of what the "corporate" image might be.

4. Reduce business rates for what is a community service (other public buildings pay reduced rates already but are usually classed as "religious use" or "registered charities).

5. Allow local groups/organisations to use the pub free of charge for meetings on the basis that those attending will then buy food and drink. (An organisation I belong to uses a local pub function room, but the cost is so high and split between members that most people only buy one drink ... if at all!).

If I think of anything else I will add it later ...
Here are my suggestions for pubs to remain open (but the government, local council and pub chains need to take notice!). 1. Reduce the cost of soft drinks so that drivers are not penalised. 2. Stop large stores selling cheap alcohol ... even better, stop stores selling alcohol and return to the good old fashioned off-license that was often attached to a pub. 3. Allow landlords/ladies to put their own mark on local pubs irrespective of what the "corporate" image might be. 4. Reduce business rates for what is a community service (other public buildings pay reduced rates already but are usually classed as "religious use" or "registered charities). 5. Allow local groups/organisations to use the pub free of charge for meetings on the basis that those attending will then buy food and drink. (An organisation I belong to uses a local pub function room, but the cost is so high and split between members that most people only buy one drink ... if at all!). If I think of anything else I will add it later ... eurogordi

12:24pm Sun 9 Feb 14

SotonGreen says...

I think a lot could be learnt from my local the Rockstone

- Does food, decent food as well as beer.
- It has a wide selection whisky, gin, rum etc
- It does live music, quizzes etc.

As important as all that they also seem genuinely friendly and remember your regular order etc. Like most service oriented businesses attention to detail is key.

The result ? A pub with a genuine local feel and what seems to be a winning formula as they always seem pretty busy.
I think a lot could be learnt from my local the Rockstone - Does food, decent food as well as beer. - It has a wide selection whisky, gin, rum etc - It does live music, quizzes etc. As important as all that they also seem genuinely friendly and remember your regular order etc. Like most service oriented businesses attention to detail is key. The result ? A pub with a genuine local feel and what seems to be a winning formula as they always seem pretty busy. SotonGreen

12:24pm Sun 9 Feb 14

befriendly says...

We've had four close within two miles of us recently and three are now mini supermarkets. One closed because it only sold beer, no coffee, no food and the staff couldn't have cared less. One because it was a known trouble spot, drug dealers den and the locals just didn't want to know. The two others were conglomerate owned and as soon as the landlords started making money from the initial cheap start they upped the rent and the landlords told them where to stuff it. One remains closed as it's position makes it useless for a mini market. It could be yours for 400K as it's now up for sale. On a busy entry road to the new forest.
We've had four close within two miles of us recently and three are now mini supermarkets. One closed because it only sold beer, no coffee, no food and the staff couldn't have cared less. One because it was a known trouble spot, drug dealers den and the locals just didn't want to know. The two others were conglomerate owned and as soon as the landlords started making money from the initial cheap start they upped the rent and the landlords told them where to stuff it. One remains closed as it's position makes it useless for a mini market. It could be yours for 400K as it's now up for sale. On a busy entry road to the new forest. befriendly

12:45pm Sun 9 Feb 14

George4th says...

The Labour government sounded the final death knell of many of the "local" pubs in their greed for more tax money to spend:-

-Introduced 24 hour drinking (Great for Town/City Centre pubs!) (more Tax Revenues)
-Encouraged the sale of cheap alcohol in Supermarkets (more tax revenues)
-Gave permission to every corner shop/convenience store to sell alcohol! (more tax revenues)

Why would you spend more to go to your local?


Add the Smoking Ban

Add the Rise and Rise of the Coffee Shop
The Labour government sounded the final death knell of many of the "local" pubs in their greed for more tax money to spend:- -Introduced 24 hour drinking (Great for Town/City Centre pubs!) (more Tax Revenues) -Encouraged the sale of cheap alcohol in Supermarkets (more tax revenues) -Gave permission to every corner shop/convenience store to sell alcohol! (more tax revenues) Why would you spend more to go to your local? Add the Smoking Ban Add the Rise and Rise of the Coffee Shop George4th

1:04pm Sun 9 Feb 14

Inform Al says...

bigfella777 wrote:
Why does a sense of "community" have to revolve around drinking alcohol?
They don't have any pubs in Europe but still sell plenty of alcohol from bars, cafes and restaurants.
I was in Budapest a couple of years ago and went to use a launderette and they actually had beer on tap in there. This isn't the 1800's when a weary traveler would seek refuge and refreshment at a nearby inn. Diversify and evolve.
About the last ten times I have drank in a pub it's been coke as I have a strict rule of not driving within 24 hours of an alcoholic drink. All those occasions have been fun, so it is not necessary to drink alcohol in a pub, but on the rare occasions when I can it is fun, but only in the pubs that do not over charge for the beer, ie not an Enterprise Inn pub.
[quote][p][bold]bigfella777[/bold] wrote: Why does a sense of "community" have to revolve around drinking alcohol? They don't have any pubs in Europe but still sell plenty of alcohol from bars, cafes and restaurants. I was in Budapest a couple of years ago and went to use a launderette and they actually had beer on tap in there. This isn't the 1800's when a weary traveler would seek refuge and refreshment at a nearby inn. Diversify and evolve.[/p][/quote]About the last ten times I have drank in a pub it's been coke as I have a strict rule of not driving within 24 hours of an alcoholic drink. All those occasions have been fun, so it is not necessary to drink alcohol in a pub, but on the rare occasions when I can it is fun, but only in the pubs that do not over charge for the beer, ie not an Enterprise Inn pub. Inform Al

1:16pm Sun 9 Feb 14

elvisimo says...

Inform Al wrote:
Pubcos are the real propble, perhaps those that are owned by companies like Enterprise Inns should be compulsorally purchased, at the local going business property rate and then either sold off to genuine people who want to run them, or run as a social business by the council.
No hey are not. They are part of the problem. Government taxation ( both this lotand the last) account for more than 40% of turnove of a community pubr , a rise of 30% since 2006.
Pub cos offer the only route for some people to get into the industry. They should negotiate rents, rent review provisions and barrelage discount at the outset.
The fact is most of the pubs that have closed will not be missed at all. If they had the chance of producing a decent income the pub companies would simply put in a salaried manager and take the profit.
[quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: Pubcos are the real propble, perhaps those that are owned by companies like Enterprise Inns should be compulsorally purchased, at the local going business property rate and then either sold off to genuine people who want to run them, or run as a social business by the council.[/p][/quote]No hey are not. They are part of the problem. Government taxation ( both this lotand the last) account for more than 40% of turnove of a community pubr , a rise of 30% since 2006. Pub cos offer the only route for some people to get into the industry. They should negotiate rents, rent review provisions and barrelage discount at the outset. The fact is most of the pubs that have closed will not be missed at all. If they had the chance of producing a decent income the pub companies would simply put in a salaried manager and take the profit. elvisimo

1:16pm Sun 9 Feb 14

southy says...

In the UK we have a basic of 3 types of drinking holes that have been around for a number of hundreds of years each with a set of different rules even low some rules were the same across the board.
Taverns just a drinking place with the pub games
Inns that was the same as Taverns but Inns you could stay over night and leave in the morning "an over night stop by" and offered the basic foods like ploughmans Lunch etc
Hotels same as above but you could stay up to 2 weeks, and the food had bigger menu to chose from
In the 80's Thatcher started the change the rules, Supermarkets could start to sell any thing they like Alcohol no longer limited to just selling the Table wines, ports etc, they could sell any type of alcohol and at a lot cheaper rate as they where bulk buying which push up the price on the small amounts that pubs was buying from the brewery supply, also supermarkets where allowed to buy any where in the world with out the import licence mainly from the EU. We also see the introduction of the Wine Bar that came in from Europe, Night Clubs hours where change also before night clubs was limited to the number of days it was allowed to open and had to be closed by 2-30am, 1am on a Sunday night, was now allowed to open even longer hours and open before 9pm.
Supermarkets done the biggest amount of damage to pubs and the no-smoking ban was the next biggest amount of damage, Pubs not all but most all ready had the Public bar where the pub games took place and smoking was allowed they also had the Lounge Bar also known as the Women bar where how you dress mattered even low it was an unwritten rule you would not go into a Lounge bar wearing a t-shirt, jeans and trainers it was a no working cloths policy, Smoking was not allowed at one time in the Lounge, Working cloths dress people and smoking was kept to the Public bar only.
So to bring back an healthy community pub you need to return back to the old values.
Its not just pubs that are being hit hard its also the Social Clubs that are closing down to Shirley Social Club is closed and I believe Shirley Warren Social Club as gone.
All the places where people use to meet up and talk to one and another on whats was happen around the world are being squeezed out of existence, and it is dividing people up and not socialising with each other, Even local cafes and Youth Clubs are getting smaller in number where the underage drinkers use to meet up and socialise with each other, its all about dividing the community up into smaller groups so the can be conquered, divide and conquer.
In the UK we have a basic of 3 types of drinking holes that have been around for a number of hundreds of years each with a set of different rules even low some rules were the same across the board. Taverns just a drinking place with the pub games Inns that was the same as Taverns but Inns you could stay over night and leave in the morning "an over night stop by" and offered the basic foods like ploughmans Lunch etc Hotels same as above but you could stay up to 2 weeks, and the food had bigger menu to chose from In the 80's Thatcher started the change the rules, Supermarkets could start to sell any thing they like Alcohol no longer limited to just selling the Table wines, ports etc, they could sell any type of alcohol and at a lot cheaper rate as they where bulk buying which push up the price on the small amounts that pubs was buying from the brewery supply, also supermarkets where allowed to buy any where in the world with out the import licence mainly from the EU. We also see the introduction of the Wine Bar that came in from Europe, Night Clubs hours where change also before night clubs was limited to the number of days it was allowed to open and had to be closed by 2-30am, 1am on a Sunday night, was now allowed to open even longer hours and open before 9pm. Supermarkets done the biggest amount of damage to pubs and the no-smoking ban was the next biggest amount of damage, Pubs not all but most all ready had the Public bar where the pub games took place and smoking was allowed they also had the Lounge Bar also known as the Women bar where how you dress mattered even low it was an unwritten rule you would not go into a Lounge bar wearing a t-shirt, jeans and trainers it was a no working cloths policy, Smoking was not allowed at one time in the Lounge, Working cloths dress people and smoking was kept to the Public bar only. So to bring back an healthy community pub you need to return back to the old values. Its not just pubs that are being hit hard its also the Social Clubs that are closing down to Shirley Social Club is closed and I believe Shirley Warren Social Club as gone. All the places where people use to meet up and talk to one and another on whats was happen around the world are being squeezed out of existence, and it is dividing people up and not socialising with each other, Even local cafes and Youth Clubs are getting smaller in number where the underage drinkers use to meet up and socialise with each other, its all about dividing the community up into smaller groups so the can be conquered, divide and conquer. southy

1:19pm Sun 9 Feb 14

SotonPool says...

sburman wrote:
What has happened to the traditional pub?.

- Smoking Ban
- Much cheaper shop booze
- No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ).
- No community to bring together.
- The way pubs are owned

Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills.

I like ale and:
- My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale )
- When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket.
- Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )
No local pub sports league? If you click the Sports button on this very website you'll see there's the Southampton Regional Pool League run for local pubs in the area.
With 97 teams at present it's an ideal way for publicans to bring revenue in on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
[quote][p][bold]sburman[/bold] wrote: What has happened to the traditional pub?. - Smoking Ban - Much cheaper shop booze - No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ). - No community to bring together. - The way pubs are owned Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills. I like ale and: - My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale ) - When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket. - Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )[/p][/quote]No local pub sports league? If you click the Sports button on this very website you'll see there's the Southampton Regional Pool League run for local pubs in the area. With 97 teams at present it's an ideal way for publicans to bring revenue in on Tuesdays and Thursdays. SotonPool

1:38pm Sun 9 Feb 14

03alpe01 says...

A lot can be done. Such things include:

.Raising the price of shop bought booze- given the price of a pint of beer is around £3 and you can buy a crate of 24 cans of beer in the shop for just over a tenner, is it any wonder why pubs struggle?

. Encourage more pub leagues as someone has already said i.e. darts, pool etc

. Encourage families to visit more often

. Perhaps section off a bit of the pub as a dedicated smoking area and make this clearly visible

. Ultimately as has already been pointed out on here- cost. I wonder how much a pint and a meal would cost in a pub, compared to a crate of beer in a shop and a Dominoes Pizza and a night on the Xbox/PS3/4.

This sadly is marking the start of the end of social drinking I feel. Not that the Council really care of course. The supermarkets/fast food outlets will still make tonnes of cash and people will be forced to go to Council's Paradise aka the late night drinking establishments in the City Centre that promote binge drinking and offer cheap drinks. As with everything in Southampton it's a case of shove everything into about 2 miles of City Centre space and to hell with everywhere, everyone and everything else!

.
A lot can be done. Such things include: .Raising the price of shop bought booze- given the price of a pint of beer is around £3 and you can buy a crate of 24 cans of beer in the shop for just over a tenner, is it any wonder why pubs struggle? . Encourage more pub leagues as someone has already said i.e. darts, pool etc . Encourage families to visit more often . Perhaps section off a bit of the pub as a dedicated smoking area and make this clearly visible . Ultimately as has already been pointed out on here- cost. I wonder how much a pint and a meal would cost in a pub, compared to a crate of beer in a shop and a Dominoes Pizza and a night on the Xbox/PS3/4. This sadly is marking the start of the end of social drinking I feel. Not that the Council really care of course. The supermarkets/fast food outlets will still make tonnes of cash and people will be forced to go to Council's Paradise aka the late night drinking establishments in the City Centre that promote binge drinking and offer cheap drinks. As with everything in Southampton it's a case of shove everything into about 2 miles of City Centre space and to hell with everywhere, everyone and everything else! . 03alpe01

1:40pm Sun 9 Feb 14

St.Winch70 says...

SotonPool wrote:
sburman wrote:
What has happened to the traditional pub?.

- Smoking Ban
- Much cheaper shop booze
- No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ).
- No community to bring together.
- The way pubs are owned

Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills.

I like ale and:
- My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale )
- When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket.
- Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )
No local pub sports league? If you click the Sports button on this very website you'll see there's the Southampton Regional Pool League run for local pubs in the area.
With 97 teams at present it's an ideal way for publicans to bring revenue in on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Really...blokes drinking soft drinks for the majority of the evening.....Hmm what a save!
[quote][p][bold]SotonPool[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sburman[/bold] wrote: What has happened to the traditional pub?. - Smoking Ban - Much cheaper shop booze - No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ). - No community to bring together. - The way pubs are owned Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills. I like ale and: - My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale ) - When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket. - Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )[/p][/quote]No local pub sports league? If you click the Sports button on this very website you'll see there's the Southampton Regional Pool League run for local pubs in the area. With 97 teams at present it's an ideal way for publicans to bring revenue in on Tuesdays and Thursdays.[/p][/quote]Really...blokes drinking soft drinks for the majority of the evening.....Hmm what a save! St.Winch70

1:48pm Sun 9 Feb 14

SotonPool says...

St.Winch70 wrote:
SotonPool wrote:
sburman wrote:
What has happened to the traditional pub?.

- Smoking Ban
- Much cheaper shop booze
- No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ).
- No community to bring together.
- The way pubs are owned

Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills.

I like ale and:
- My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale )
- When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket.
- Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )
No local pub sports league? If you click the Sports button on this very website you'll see there's the Southampton Regional Pool League run for local pubs in the area.
With 97 teams at present it's an ideal way for publicans to bring revenue in on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Really...blokes drinking soft drinks for the majority of the evening.....Hmm what a save!
Teams will often (brace yourself for this revolution in personal transportation. ..) car-share to the away venues so that they can drink.
Home teams generally are local people so can walk/bus to and from the pub.
Simply put, as it's been mentioned many times before, use it or lose it. The pubs partaking in a pool (or darts) league will add revenue on otherwise quiet nights. The option to host finals or presentation evenings all adds too.
[quote][p][bold]St.Winch70[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SotonPool[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sburman[/bold] wrote: What has happened to the traditional pub?. - Smoking Ban - Much cheaper shop booze - No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ). - No community to bring together. - The way pubs are owned Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills. I like ale and: - My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale ) - When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket. - Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )[/p][/quote]No local pub sports league? If you click the Sports button on this very website you'll see there's the Southampton Regional Pool League run for local pubs in the area. With 97 teams at present it's an ideal way for publicans to bring revenue in on Tuesdays and Thursdays.[/p][/quote]Really...blokes drinking soft drinks for the majority of the evening.....Hmm what a save![/p][/quote]Teams will often (brace yourself for this revolution in personal transportation. ..) car-share to the away venues so that they can drink. Home teams generally are local people so can walk/bus to and from the pub. Simply put, as it's been mentioned many times before, use it or lose it. The pubs partaking in a pool (or darts) league will add revenue on otherwise quiet nights. The option to host finals or presentation evenings all adds too. SotonPool

2:01pm Sun 9 Feb 14

Inform Al says...

elvisimo wrote:
Inform Al wrote:
Pubcos are the real propble, perhaps those that are owned by companies like Enterprise Inns should be compulsorally purchased, at the local going business property rate and then either sold off to genuine people who want to run them, or run as a social business by the council.
No hey are not. They are part of the problem. Government taxation ( both this lotand the last) account for more than 40% of turnove of a community pubr , a rise of 30% since 2006.
Pub cos offer the only route for some people to get into the industry. They should negotiate rents, rent review provisions and barrelage discount at the outset.
The fact is most of the pubs that have closed will not be missed at all. If they had the chance of producing a decent income the pub companies would simply put in a salaried manager and take the profit.
Thet ARE the problem. Brewers have always added a bit on at budget time to increase their profits and the tax has risen every year almost without exception. But none of this compares to the greed of the pub cos who are expert at bankrupting aspiring tenents
[quote][p][bold]elvisimo[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: Pubcos are the real propble, perhaps those that are owned by companies like Enterprise Inns should be compulsorally purchased, at the local going business property rate and then either sold off to genuine people who want to run them, or run as a social business by the council.[/p][/quote]No hey are not. They are part of the problem. Government taxation ( both this lotand the last) account for more than 40% of turnove of a community pubr , a rise of 30% since 2006. Pub cos offer the only route for some people to get into the industry. They should negotiate rents, rent review provisions and barrelage discount at the outset. The fact is most of the pubs that have closed will not be missed at all. If they had the chance of producing a decent income the pub companies would simply put in a salaried manager and take the profit.[/p][/quote]Thet ARE the problem. Brewers have always added a bit on at budget time to increase their profits and the tax has risen every year almost without exception. But none of this compares to the greed of the pub cos who are expert at bankrupting aspiring tenents Inform Al

2:24pm Sun 9 Feb 14

KingMawwaw says...

These are great ideas and suggestions in the comments section. I'm not going to add mine as I'm only a drinker not an expert.

But it would be interesting if the Echo continued with this story and commissioned half a dozen landlords/ladies who are successfully running pubs in Southampton to give their opinions. What are they doing right? And give them the space to answer the question in some detail - not just a couple of paragraphs.
These are great ideas and suggestions in the comments section. I'm not going to add mine as I'm only a drinker not an expert. But it would be interesting if the Echo continued with this story and commissioned half a dozen landlords/ladies who are successfully running pubs in Southampton to give their opinions. What are they doing right? And give them the space to answer the question in some detail - not just a couple of paragraphs. KingMawwaw

2:32pm Sun 9 Feb 14

KingMawwaw says...

Also, and on a different subject, this article mentions 'community figures'. Is there a list of these people somewhere?

They seem to have the ear of the council (the council is always consulting with them) but I don't recall asking anyone to represent me in the community - except at the ballot box. Self-appointed loudmouths?
Also, and on a different subject, this article mentions 'community figures'. Is there a list of these people somewhere? They seem to have the ear of the council (the council is always consulting with them) but I don't recall asking anyone to represent me in the community - except at the ballot box. Self-appointed loudmouths? KingMawwaw

2:54pm Sun 9 Feb 14

St.Winch70 says...

SotonPool wrote:
St.Winch70 wrote:
SotonPool wrote:
sburman wrote:
What has happened to the traditional pub?.

- Smoking Ban
- Much cheaper shop booze
- No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ).
- No community to bring together.
- The way pubs are owned

Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills.

I like ale and:
- My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale )
- When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket.
- Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )
No local pub sports league? If you click the Sports button on this very website you'll see there's the Southampton Regional Pool League run for local pubs in the area.
With 97 teams at present it's an ideal way for publicans to bring revenue in on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Really...blokes drinking soft drinks for the majority of the evening.....Hmm what a save!
Teams will often (brace yourself for this revolution in personal transportation. ..) car-share to the away venues so that they can drink.
Home teams generally are local people so can walk/bus to and from the pub.
Simply put, as it's been mentioned many times before, use it or lose it. The pubs partaking in a pool (or darts) league will add revenue on otherwise quiet nights. The option to host finals or presentation evenings all adds too.
OK 'brace yourself' for a bit of profit and loss...A pool match and associated revenues would barely cover the cost of a bar person for that evening..
[quote][p][bold]SotonPool[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]St.Winch70[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SotonPool[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sburman[/bold] wrote: What has happened to the traditional pub?. - Smoking Ban - Much cheaper shop booze - No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ). - No community to bring together. - The way pubs are owned Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills. I like ale and: - My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale ) - When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket. - Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )[/p][/quote]No local pub sports league? If you click the Sports button on this very website you'll see there's the Southampton Regional Pool League run for local pubs in the area. With 97 teams at present it's an ideal way for publicans to bring revenue in on Tuesdays and Thursdays.[/p][/quote]Really...blokes drinking soft drinks for the majority of the evening.....Hmm what a save![/p][/quote]Teams will often (brace yourself for this revolution in personal transportation. ..) car-share to the away venues so that they can drink. Home teams generally are local people so can walk/bus to and from the pub. Simply put, as it's been mentioned many times before, use it or lose it. The pubs partaking in a pool (or darts) league will add revenue on otherwise quiet nights. The option to host finals or presentation evenings all adds too.[/p][/quote]OK 'brace yourself' for a bit of profit and loss...A pool match and associated revenues would barely cover the cost of a bar person for that evening.. St.Winch70

3:31pm Sun 9 Feb 14

sparkster says...

I think some of it is due to supermarkets selling alcohol plus the no smoking ban so people will go to the supermarket for their drinks and they can drink and smoke as much as they like at home, these factors may not be the only reasons but I dont think it helps, if people want to smoke they have to go outside which is all well and good when its dry. I think they used to have desigated areas in pubs for smokers
I think some of it is due to supermarkets selling alcohol plus the no smoking ban so people will go to the supermarket for their drinks and they can drink and smoke as much as they like at home, these factors may not be the only reasons but I dont think it helps, if people want to smoke they have to go outside which is all well and good when its dry. I think they used to have desigated areas in pubs for smokers sparkster

3:33pm Sun 9 Feb 14

SotonPool says...

St.Winch70 wrote:
SotonPool wrote:
St.Winch70 wrote:
SotonPool wrote:
sburman wrote:
What has happened to the traditional pub?.

- Smoking Ban
- Much cheaper shop booze
- No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ).
- No community to bring together.
- The way pubs are owned

Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills.

I like ale and:
- My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale )
- When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket.
- Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )
No local pub sports league? If you click the Sports button on this very website you'll see there's the Southampton Regional Pool League run for local pubs in the area.
With 97 teams at present it's an ideal way for publicans to bring revenue in on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Really...blokes drinking soft drinks for the majority of the evening.....Hmm what a save!
Teams will often (brace yourself for this revolution in personal transportation. ..) car-share to the away venues so that they can drink.
Home teams generally are local people so can walk/bus to and from the pub.
Simply put, as it's been mentioned many times before, use it or lose it. The pubs partaking in a pool (or darts) league will add revenue on otherwise quiet nights. The option to host finals or presentation evenings all adds too.
OK 'brace yourself' for a bit of profit and loss...A pool match and associated revenues would barely cover the cost of a bar person for that evening..
As a pub is often open anyway, joining a league adds to the night's takings so your point is invalid. With an average or 8 players per team, often staying til closing, it's more a question of why not?
Use the fact that people who AREN'T local will be visiting your pub and it's also an opportunity to gain new regulars.
Enter two teams on Tuesday and Thursday and you'll have two home matches every week... ask the likes of the Hinkler or Shield & Dagger if it's a bad thing.
[quote][p][bold]St.Winch70[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SotonPool[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]St.Winch70[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SotonPool[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sburman[/bold] wrote: What has happened to the traditional pub?. - Smoking Ban - Much cheaper shop booze - No local `Pub Sport` leagues ( darts, pool, etc. ). - No community to bring together. - The way pubs are owned Basically, all the things that made the pub the centre of a community. It's no good a few dozen people campaigning to keepa pub open when a few dozen people will not pay the bills. I like ale and: - My local pub does not sell ale ( Lager/Bitter etc. but no tap ale ) - When I do go into a pub that sells ale it is approx. £4 a pint whereas it is £1.50/2.00 in the supermarket. - Where can I sit and enjoy my piint that does offend people ( I smoke )[/p][/quote]No local pub sports league? If you click the Sports button on this very website you'll see there's the Southampton Regional Pool League run for local pubs in the area. With 97 teams at present it's an ideal way for publicans to bring revenue in on Tuesdays and Thursdays.[/p][/quote]Really...blokes drinking soft drinks for the majority of the evening.....Hmm what a save![/p][/quote]Teams will often (brace yourself for this revolution in personal transportation. ..) car-share to the away venues so that they can drink. Home teams generally are local people so can walk/bus to and from the pub. Simply put, as it's been mentioned many times before, use it or lose it. The pubs partaking in a pool (or darts) league will add revenue on otherwise quiet nights. The option to host finals or presentation evenings all adds too.[/p][/quote]OK 'brace yourself' for a bit of profit and loss...A pool match and associated revenues would barely cover the cost of a bar person for that evening..[/p][/quote]As a pub is often open anyway, joining a league adds to the night's takings so your point is invalid. With an average or 8 players per team, often staying til closing, it's more a question of why not? Use the fact that people who AREN'T local will be visiting your pub and it's also an opportunity to gain new regulars. Enter two teams on Tuesday and Thursday and you'll have two home matches every week... ask the likes of the Hinkler or Shield & Dagger if it's a bad thing. SotonPool

3:44pm Sun 9 Feb 14

Mr-La-De-Da-Gunner-Graham says...

Hmmmm, well this is a hard one.

NOT!!!

1) Revoke the smoking ban

2) Cut taxes on alcohol.

3) Reduce business rates since they are being unfairly hiked up to plug the hole left by reduced taxation income on fuel etc.

4) Of course, the powers that be won't do that. Because they WANT to see the pub ENDED. The pub represent one of the few places where working and middle class people can get together and possibly organise themselves. Can't have that, can we?
Hmmmm, well this is a hard one. NOT!!! 1) Revoke the smoking ban 2) Cut taxes on alcohol. 3) Reduce business rates since they are being unfairly hiked up to plug the hole left by reduced taxation income on fuel etc. 4) Of course, the powers that be won't do that. Because they WANT to see the pub ENDED. The pub represent one of the few places where working and middle class people can get together and possibly organise themselves. Can't have that, can we? Mr-La-De-Da-Gunner-Graham

4:38pm Sun 9 Feb 14

Oh my goodness says...

EarlyRiser wrote:
'back in the day' we would never miss a Friday & Saturday night in our local, along with the lunchtimes as well. They then opened all day which ruined the social get together as everyone used to go there at the same time eg, Sundays 12 till 2.
Now youngsters go to Asda etc at 7 every Friday night (just go there and look) go back to someone's house and play Xbox or whatever, no social community interaction at all.
Why do they do this - cost. As said above case of beer less than a tenner. In the pub £3.00 ++ a pint. No brainer for them.
Why so expensive ? an example. I run the bar at my local sports club, OK staff are volunteers, but the main reason we can sell cheaper and make good money for the club is purchase price. I pay £93 + VAT for a keg of Fosters. I know a guy in a leased pub near Shirley that has to pay the crooks known as Greene King £150 + VAT.
There are very few free houses anymore, nearly all pubs are tied one way or another to one of the chains, be it Greene King, Enterprise, Punch Taverns etc. They are not brewers, they are property developers. They love it when a pub is failing due to high prices charged for their beer and the ludicrous rents they charge. When the licensee throws in the towel they can sell the asset to Tesco, Macpukeonalds or for flats.
Eloquently put well done.
[quote][p][bold]EarlyRiser[/bold] wrote: 'back in the day' we would never miss a Friday & Saturday night in our local, along with the lunchtimes as well. They then opened all day which ruined the social get together as everyone used to go there at the same time eg, Sundays 12 till 2. Now youngsters go to Asda etc at 7 every Friday night (just go there and look) go back to someone's house and play Xbox or whatever, no social community interaction at all. Why do they do this - cost. As said above case of beer less than a tenner. In the pub £3.00 ++ a pint. No brainer for them. Why so expensive ? an example. I run the bar at my local sports club, OK staff are volunteers, but the main reason we can sell cheaper and make good money for the club is purchase price. I pay £93 + VAT for a keg of Fosters. I know a guy in a leased pub near Shirley that has to pay the crooks known as Greene King £150 + VAT. There are very few free houses anymore, nearly all pubs are tied one way or another to one of the chains, be it Greene King, Enterprise, Punch Taverns etc. They are not brewers, they are property developers. They love it when a pub is failing due to high prices charged for their beer and the ludicrous rents they charge. When the licensee throws in the towel they can sell the asset to Tesco, Macpukeonalds or for flats.[/p][/quote]Eloquently put well done. Oh my goodness

4:40pm Sun 9 Feb 14

elvisimo says...

Inform Al wrote:
elvisimo wrote:
Inform Al wrote:
Pubcos are the real propble, perhaps those that are owned by companies like Enterprise Inns should be compulsorally purchased, at the local going business property rate and then either sold off to genuine people who want to run them, or run as a social business by the council.
No hey are not. They are part of the problem. Government taxation ( both this lotand the last) account for more than 40% of turnove of a community pubr , a rise of 30% since 2006.
Pub cos offer the only route for some people to get into the industry. They should negotiate rents, rent review provisions and barrelage discount at the outset.
The fact is most of the pubs that have closed will not be missed at all. If they had the chance of producing a decent income the pub companies would simply put in a salaried manager and take the profit.
Thet ARE the problem. Brewers have always added a bit on at budget time to increase their profits and the tax has risen every year almost without exception. But none of this compares to the greed of the pub cos who are expert at bankrupting aspiring tenents
You have little understanding about how the industry works. The 'aspiring tenants' can make a lot of money out of their leased properties. Look on fleurets or Christies website and see what these tenants can make for their businesses. People wishing to take on a pub need to do the due diligence whether taking an fir lease or shorter tenancy agreement. They should have an understanding of the work and hours involved and even though, in many cases they can get the pub opened with a minimal 'in going capital' requirement., if they don't know what they are doing or won't put in the effort it we'll fail. The fact is the whole industry has changed. The pure leisure chains of the mid 90's no longer exist, the town centre market has become niche and regional and the 'good old' community local can not survive unless they provide a wider offer. The historic figures of 500 barrels being a benchmark for a decent trading pub will not work anymore. Food, entertainment, outside space all need thought. The pubs lost have no place in today's market, if they did the evil pub companies would continue to take the rent ,AWP income and beer sales. This provides an investment value across their estate greater than a one off hit selling sites to property developers.
If the pub companies and the government worked together and the government looked at duty, the ludicrous rating system, vat then things would look a lot different.
[quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elvisimo[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: Pubcos are the real propble, perhaps those that are owned by companies like Enterprise Inns should be compulsorally purchased, at the local going business property rate and then either sold off to genuine people who want to run them, or run as a social business by the council.[/p][/quote]No hey are not. They are part of the problem. Government taxation ( both this lotand the last) account for more than 40% of turnove of a community pubr , a rise of 30% since 2006. Pub cos offer the only route for some people to get into the industry. They should negotiate rents, rent review provisions and barrelage discount at the outset. The fact is most of the pubs that have closed will not be missed at all. If they had the chance of producing a decent income the pub companies would simply put in a salaried manager and take the profit.[/p][/quote]Thet ARE the problem. Brewers have always added a bit on at budget time to increase their profits and the tax has risen every year almost without exception. But none of this compares to the greed of the pub cos who are expert at bankrupting aspiring tenents[/p][/quote]You have little understanding about how the industry works. The 'aspiring tenants' can make a lot of money out of their leased properties. Look on fleurets or Christies website and see what these tenants can make for their businesses. People wishing to take on a pub need to do the due diligence whether taking an fir lease or shorter tenancy agreement. They should have an understanding of the work and hours involved and even though, in many cases they can get the pub opened with a minimal 'in going capital' requirement., if they don't know what they are doing or won't put in the effort it we'll fail. The fact is the whole industry has changed. The pure leisure chains of the mid 90's no longer exist, the town centre market has become niche and regional and the 'good old' community local can not survive unless they provide a wider offer. The historic figures of 500 barrels being a benchmark for a decent trading pub will not work anymore. Food, entertainment, outside space all need thought. The pubs lost have no place in today's market, if they did the evil pub companies would continue to take the rent ,AWP income and beer sales. This provides an investment value across their estate greater than a one off hit selling sites to property developers. If the pub companies and the government worked together and the government looked at duty, the ludicrous rating system, vat then things would look a lot different. elvisimo

4:45pm Sun 9 Feb 14

Inform Al says...

elvisimo wrote:
Inform Al wrote:
elvisimo wrote:
Inform Al wrote:
Pubcos are the real propble, perhaps those that are owned by companies like Enterprise Inns should be compulsorally purchased, at the local going business property rate and then either sold off to genuine people who want to run them, or run as a social business by the council.
No hey are not. They are part of the problem. Government taxation ( both this lotand the last) account for more than 40% of turnove of a community pubr , a rise of 30% since 2006.
Pub cos offer the only route for some people to get into the industry. They should negotiate rents, rent review provisions and barrelage discount at the outset.
The fact is most of the pubs that have closed will not be missed at all. If they had the chance of producing a decent income the pub companies would simply put in a salaried manager and take the profit.
Thet ARE the problem. Brewers have always added a bit on at budget time to increase their profits and the tax has risen every year almost without exception. But none of this compares to the greed of the pub cos who are expert at bankrupting aspiring tenents
You have little understanding about how the industry works. The 'aspiring tenants' can make a lot of money out of their leased properties. Look on fleurets or Christies website and see what these tenants can make for their businesses. People wishing to take on a pub need to do the due diligence whether taking an fir lease or shorter tenancy agreement. They should have an understanding of the work and hours involved and even though, in many cases they can get the pub opened with a minimal 'in going capital' requirement., if they don't know what they are doing or won't put in the effort it we'll fail. The fact is the whole industry has changed. The pure leisure chains of the mid 90's no longer exist, the town centre market has become niche and regional and the 'good old' community local can not survive unless they provide a wider offer. The historic figures of 500 barrels being a benchmark for a decent trading pub will not work anymore. Food, entertainment, outside space all need thought. The pubs lost have no place in today's market, if they did the evil pub companies would continue to take the rent ,AWP income and beer sales. This provides an investment value across their estate greater than a one off hit selling sites to property developers.
If the pub companies and the government worked together and the government looked at duty, the ludicrous rating system, vat then things would look a lot different.
Of course I have no idea of the pub business numpty, I only ran the Angel in Palmerstone Road and the Hare and Hounds in Harefield. That is just the Southampton ones. I know exactly what is wrong and it is pubcos such as Enterprise Inns.
[quote][p][bold]elvisimo[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elvisimo[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: Pubcos are the real propble, perhaps those that are owned by companies like Enterprise Inns should be compulsorally purchased, at the local going business property rate and then either sold off to genuine people who want to run them, or run as a social business by the council.[/p][/quote]No hey are not. They are part of the problem. Government taxation ( both this lotand the last) account for more than 40% of turnove of a community pubr , a rise of 30% since 2006. Pub cos offer the only route for some people to get into the industry. They should negotiate rents, rent review provisions and barrelage discount at the outset. The fact is most of the pubs that have closed will not be missed at all. If they had the chance of producing a decent income the pub companies would simply put in a salaried manager and take the profit.[/p][/quote]Thet ARE the problem. Brewers have always added a bit on at budget time to increase their profits and the tax has risen every year almost without exception. But none of this compares to the greed of the pub cos who are expert at bankrupting aspiring tenents[/p][/quote]You have little understanding about how the industry works. The 'aspiring tenants' can make a lot of money out of their leased properties. Look on fleurets or Christies website and see what these tenants can make for their businesses. People wishing to take on a pub need to do the due diligence whether taking an fir lease or shorter tenancy agreement. They should have an understanding of the work and hours involved and even though, in many cases they can get the pub opened with a minimal 'in going capital' requirement., if they don't know what they are doing or won't put in the effort it we'll fail. The fact is the whole industry has changed. The pure leisure chains of the mid 90's no longer exist, the town centre market has become niche and regional and the 'good old' community local can not survive unless they provide a wider offer. The historic figures of 500 barrels being a benchmark for a decent trading pub will not work anymore. Food, entertainment, outside space all need thought. The pubs lost have no place in today's market, if they did the evil pub companies would continue to take the rent ,AWP income and beer sales. This provides an investment value across their estate greater than a one off hit selling sites to property developers. If the pub companies and the government worked together and the government looked at duty, the ludicrous rating system, vat then things would look a lot different.[/p][/quote]Of course I have no idea of the pub business numpty, I only ran the Angel in Palmerstone Road and the Hare and Hounds in Harefield. That is just the Southampton ones. I know exactly what is wrong and it is pubcos such as Enterprise Inns. Inform Al

5:29pm Sun 9 Feb 14

wwozzer says...

Who wants to go out and drink anymore? Supermarket prices, smoking ban and home entertainment have killed it. To the younger generation it makes about as much sense as riding a horse to work.

People will go out to eat though, in attractive establishments with a good menu and good service. Adapt to the new market or die.
Who wants to go out and drink anymore? Supermarket prices, smoking ban and home entertainment have killed it. To the younger generation it makes about as much sense as riding a horse to work. People will go out to eat though, in attractive establishments with a good menu and good service. Adapt to the new market or die. wwozzer

5:31pm Sun 9 Feb 14

Inform Al says...

wwozzer wrote:
Who wants to go out and drink anymore? Supermarket prices, smoking ban and home entertainment have killed it. To the younger generation it makes about as much sense as riding a horse to work.

People will go out to eat though, in attractive establishments with a good menu and good service. Adapt to the new market or die.
Yes, sit in doors and be miserable all by yourself. Be better off in prison at least you get company.
[quote][p][bold]wwozzer[/bold] wrote: Who wants to go out and drink anymore? Supermarket prices, smoking ban and home entertainment have killed it. To the younger generation it makes about as much sense as riding a horse to work. People will go out to eat though, in attractive establishments with a good menu and good service. Adapt to the new market or die.[/p][/quote]Yes, sit in doors and be miserable all by yourself. Be better off in prison at least you get company. Inform Al

6:01pm Sun 9 Feb 14

wwozzer says...

Inform Al wrote:
wwozzer wrote:
Who wants to go out and drink anymore? Supermarket prices, smoking ban and home entertainment have killed it. To the younger generation it makes about as much sense as riding a horse to work.

People will go out to eat though, in attractive establishments with a good menu and good service. Adapt to the new market or die.
Yes, sit in doors and be miserable all by yourself. Be better off in prison at least you get company.
It's not about being unsociable it's about cost. My 18 year old pad gets paid 600 per month. 200 goes on car insurance, 150 goes to his mum for keep and 100 goes on petrol. He can't afford to go to a pub, he can only afford supermarket tins round a mates house on the xbox or watching footie.

When I was his age we were in the pub Fri and Saturday every week, it doesn't really matter how many different factors have conspired to kill the traditional pub the fact is its a different world now.

The market has had to move into dining, clinging onto some quaint notion of local boozers is a waste of time. There is a huge market for eating out now and all the successful pubs around here caught onto that years ago.
[quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]wwozzer[/bold] wrote: Who wants to go out and drink anymore? Supermarket prices, smoking ban and home entertainment have killed it. To the younger generation it makes about as much sense as riding a horse to work. People will go out to eat though, in attractive establishments with a good menu and good service. Adapt to the new market or die.[/p][/quote]Yes, sit in doors and be miserable all by yourself. Be better off in prison at least you get company.[/p][/quote]It's not about being unsociable it's about cost. My 18 year old pad gets paid 600 per month. 200 goes on car insurance, 150 goes to his mum for keep and 100 goes on petrol. He can't afford to go to a pub, he can only afford supermarket tins round a mates house on the xbox or watching footie. When I was his age we were in the pub Fri and Saturday every week, it doesn't really matter how many different factors have conspired to kill the traditional pub the fact is its a different world now. The market has had to move into dining, clinging onto some quaint notion of local boozers is a waste of time. There is a huge market for eating out now and all the successful pubs around here caught onto that years ago. wwozzer

6:25pm Sun 9 Feb 14

Inform Al says...

wwozzer wrote:
Inform Al wrote:
wwozzer wrote:
Who wants to go out and drink anymore? Supermarket prices, smoking ban and home entertainment have killed it. To the younger generation it makes about as much sense as riding a horse to work.

People will go out to eat though, in attractive establishments with a good menu and good service. Adapt to the new market or die.
Yes, sit in doors and be miserable all by yourself. Be better off in prison at least you get company.
It's not about being unsociable it's about cost. My 18 year old pad gets paid 600 per month. 200 goes on car insurance, 150 goes to his mum for keep and 100 goes on petrol. He can't afford to go to a pub, he can only afford supermarket tins round a mates house on the xbox or watching footie.

When I was his age we were in the pub Fri and Saturday every week, it doesn't really matter how many different factors have conspired to kill the traditional pub the fact is its a different world now.

The market has had to move into dining, clinging onto some quaint notion of local boozers is a waste of time. There is a huge market for eating out now and all the successful pubs around here caught onto that years ago.
And what about those of us who cannot afford to be poisoned in restaurants or cafes. If I can't afford £3/4 a pint then I sure as hell cannot to dine out.
[quote][p][bold]wwozzer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Inform Al[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]wwozzer[/bold] wrote: Who wants to go out and drink anymore? Supermarket prices, smoking ban and home entertainment have killed it. To the younger generation it makes about as much sense as riding a horse to work. People will go out to eat though, in attractive establishments with a good menu and good service. Adapt to the new market or die.[/p][/quote]Yes, sit in doors and be miserable all by yourself. Be better off in prison at least you get company.[/p][/quote]It's not about being unsociable it's about cost. My 18 year old pad gets paid 600 per month. 200 goes on car insurance, 150 goes to his mum for keep and 100 goes on petrol. He can't afford to go to a pub, he can only afford supermarket tins round a mates house on the xbox or watching footie. When I was his age we were in the pub Fri and Saturday every week, it doesn't really matter how many different factors have conspired to kill the traditional pub the fact is its a different world now. The market has had to move into dining, clinging onto some quaint notion of local boozers is a waste of time. There is a huge market for eating out now and all the successful pubs around here caught onto that years ago.[/p][/quote]And what about those of us who cannot afford to be poisoned in restaurants or cafes. If I can't afford £3/4 a pint then I sure as hell cannot to dine out. Inform Al

9:51pm Sun 9 Feb 14

Matt Probert says...

Oh yes. The great British pub.

A place to buy drugs, buy stolen goods, endure racist abuse and get yer head kicked in.

Now tell me again, why don't I go out much any more?

Nice to the Bittern has been saved, but can I ask them a question?

WHEN WILL YOU ALLOW BLACKS ON THE PREMISES?

(Not that the off licence opposite encourages customers of an Afro-Caribbean ethnicity either, oh the joys of living in the North-East Southampton area)
Oh yes. The great British pub. A place to buy drugs, buy stolen goods, endure racist abuse and get yer head kicked in. Now tell me again, why don't I go out much any more? Nice to the Bittern has been saved, but can I ask them a question? WHEN WILL YOU ALLOW BLACKS ON THE PREMISES? (Not that the off licence opposite encourages customers of an Afro-Caribbean ethnicity either, oh the joys of living in the North-East Southampton area) Matt Probert

10:00pm Sun 9 Feb 14

forest hump says...

Smoking Ban!!! (I do not smoke) How dare these useless, out of touch, failed thespians, arrogant, selfish trough nosers, dictate to owners of property and businesses where they can and can not smoke?? The greedy pigs (apology to swine) slap a horrendous tax on tobacco and then tell us we can't smoke! Line them up and hose them with ditch water. Vile, the lot of them.
Smoking Ban!!! (I do not smoke) How dare these useless, out of touch, failed thespians, arrogant, selfish trough nosers, dictate to owners of property and businesses where they can and can not smoke?? The greedy pigs (apology to swine) slap a horrendous tax on tobacco and then tell us we can't smoke! Line them up and hose them with ditch water. Vile, the lot of them. forest hump

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