Controversial Living Wage scheme introduced for Southampton City Council employees

Living Wage introduced for city council workers

Living Wage introduced for city council workers

First published in News Daily Echo: Photograph of the Author by , Political reporter

SOUTHAMPTON City Council is finally set to introduce the Living Wage after councillors approved the proposals.

The move did not go through without controversy after two councillors voted against it and were labelled “a disgrace” by a former mayor.

Labour council bosses had announced they would introduce the Living Wage, which is calculated to cover the real cost of living, last year. But its introduction was delayed as negotiations over simplifying the many methods of payment for staff at the council dragged on.

On Wednesday Labour’s proposal to introduce the wage – which currently stands at £7.31 per hour – and simplify the ways staff are paid was voted through at a meeting of the full council subject to negotiations with unions.

It will be backdated to last September.

But independent anti-cuts councillors Keith Morrell and Don Thomas voted against the proposals, saying that they supported introducing the Living Wage but objected to a condition which would see the council dismiss and re-engage staff if union ballots rejected the proposed changes.

Cllr Morrell said the council was “putting a gun to the head of staff” but the two were harangued after the meeting by former city mayor Derek Burke, who labelled them a “disgrace”.

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2:44pm Sat 19 Jul 14

southy says...

But independent anti-cuts councillors Keith Morrell and Don Thomas voted against the proposals, saying that they supported introducing the Living Wage but objected to a condition which would see the council dismiss and re-engage staff if union ballots rejected the proposed changes.

You can see why Keith and Don objected I would to, it is wrong to dismiss and then re-gage staff if the Union rejects the offer, this is a way for the Council to bring in Zero Hour Contracts on the staff, the Council is a total disgrace to enforce it on the staff, Letts and the rest of the Labour Council are proving to be more like the Torys than the Torys are.
But independent anti-cuts councillors Keith Morrell and Don Thomas voted against the proposals, saying that they supported introducing the Living Wage but objected to a condition which would see the council dismiss and re-engage staff if union ballots rejected the proposed changes. You can see why Keith and Don objected I would to, it is wrong to dismiss and then re-gage staff if the Union rejects the offer, this is a way for the Council to bring in Zero Hour Contracts on the staff, the Council is a total disgrace to enforce it on the staff, Letts and the rest of the Labour Council are proving to be more like the Torys than the Torys are. southy
  • Score: -3

3:20pm Sat 19 Jul 14

tootle says...

Living wage is a misnomer. If workers on the minimum wage didn't pay tax or NI then they would be bringing home more than they will on the "living" wage. IMO the government is immoral taking tax off people and then telling them they need more money to live on!. That'll be another Council Tax rise I can't afford next year. Since I am pretty sure most council Workers are on above this rate anyway maybe they could pay for the increase by cutting Councillors salaries and expenses. If what they want to do is change terms and conditions they should be honest about it - only problem with that is the last party to try that got booted out!.
Living wage is a misnomer. If workers on the minimum wage didn't pay tax or NI then they would be bringing home more than they will on the "living" wage. IMO the government is immoral taking tax off people and then telling them they need more money to live on!. That'll be another Council Tax rise I can't afford next year. Since I am pretty sure most council Workers are on above this rate anyway maybe they could pay for the increase by cutting Councillors salaries and expenses. If what they want to do is change terms and conditions they should be honest about it - only problem with that is the last party to try that got booted out!. tootle
  • Score: -3

4:03pm Sat 19 Jul 14

richieroo says...

Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-) richieroo
  • Score: -21

4:06pm Sat 19 Jul 14

IronLady2010 says...

richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
There is no such thing as a low paid job working for the Council.
I'm yet to see a Council job advertised at minimum wage!
[quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]There is no such thing as a low paid job working for the Council. I'm yet to see a Council job advertised at minimum wage! IronLady2010
  • Score: -9

4:08pm Sat 19 Jul 14

southy says...

richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
How about going to Uni ending up with a massive debt and not have a job at all
[quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]How about going to Uni ending up with a massive debt and not have a job at all southy
  • Score: 14

4:13pm Sat 19 Jul 14

On the inside says...

So Tories don't want cleaners, carers, roadsweepers, etc paid a living wage and think people only do these jobs because they are stupid. How about this. Tory voters are allowed to opt out of society and not pay tax. But it has to be for life so when they are old and in pain etc they get nothing and die. Seems a fair deal to me.

Thomas and Morrell, Thick or what?
So Tories don't want cleaners, carers, roadsweepers, etc paid a living wage and think people only do these jobs because they are stupid. How about this. Tory voters are allowed to opt out of society and not pay tax. But it has to be for life so when they are old and in pain etc they get nothing and die. Seems a fair deal to me. Thomas and Morrell, Thick or what? On the inside
  • Score: 0

4:28pm Sat 19 Jul 14

ClunkClick says...

southy wrote:
But independent anti-cuts councillors Keith Morrell and Don Thomas voted against the proposals, saying that they supported introducing the Living Wage but objected to a condition which would see the council dismiss and re-engage staff if union ballots rejected the proposed changes.

You can see why Keith and Don objected I would to, it is wrong to dismiss and then re-gage staff if the Union rejects the offer, this is a way for the Council to bring in Zero Hour Contracts on the staff, the Council is a total disgrace to enforce it on the staff, Letts and the rest of the Labour Council are proving to be more like the Torys than the Torys are.
Southy! Labour ready to use the Conservatives method of 2011, to force through changes to employee contracts. You cannot make this stuff up!
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: But independent anti-cuts councillors Keith Morrell and Don Thomas voted against the proposals, saying that they supported introducing the Living Wage but objected to a condition which would see the council dismiss and re-engage staff if union ballots rejected the proposed changes. You can see why Keith and Don objected I would to, it is wrong to dismiss and then re-gage staff if the Union rejects the offer, this is a way for the Council to bring in Zero Hour Contracts on the staff, the Council is a total disgrace to enforce it on the staff, Letts and the rest of the Labour Council are proving to be more like the Torys than the Torys are.[/p][/quote]Southy! Labour ready to use the Conservatives method of 2011, to force through changes to employee contracts. You cannot make this stuff up! ClunkClick
  • Score: 2

4:34pm Sat 19 Jul 14

richieroo says...

southy wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
How about going to Uni ending up with a massive debt and not have a job at all
Luckily I did an apprenticeship which taught me real work skills which have led on to a well paid job or go to uni & study in a skill which is needed engineering or a doctor etc rather than media studies etc!!. ;-)
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]How about going to Uni ending up with a massive debt and not have a job at all[/p][/quote]Luckily I did an apprenticeship which taught me real work skills which have led on to a well paid job or go to uni & study in a skill which is needed engineering or a doctor etc rather than media studies etc!!. ;-) richieroo
  • Score: -5

4:41pm Sat 19 Jul 14

IronLady2010 says...

I'm hoping someone can help me with this one.

The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21.

Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct.

Surely i'm missing something here?
I'm hoping someone can help me with this one. The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21. Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct. Surely i'm missing something here? IronLady2010
  • Score: -1

4:50pm Sat 19 Jul 14

HillsidePaul says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
There is no such thing as a low paid job working for the Council.
I'm yet to see a Council job advertised at minimum wage!
Errrr you seem to have missed the point of the story. Of course you won't see a council that has agreed to Pay a living wage advertising jobs at minimum wage.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]There is no such thing as a low paid job working for the Council. I'm yet to see a Council job advertised at minimum wage![/p][/quote]Errrr you seem to have missed the point of the story. Of course you won't see a council that has agreed to Pay a living wage advertising jobs at minimum wage. HillsidePaul
  • Score: 1

5:15pm Sat 19 Jul 14

HillsidePaul says...

Contrary to what the right wing press want you to believe most people claiming benefits are in work but have to claim to make ends meet.

Many of those will be on minimum wage. Paying a living wage will take a lot of them out of benefits. So everyone gains. Too many (mainly private sector) employers depending on taxpayers to subsidise the low wages they pay whilst they take all the profits.

Surely the more workers earning a reasonable wage and not needing to claim benefits the better for all of us.
Contrary to what the right wing press want you to believe most people claiming benefits are in work but have to claim to make ends meet. Many of those will be on minimum wage. Paying a living wage will take a lot of them out of benefits. So everyone gains. Too many (mainly private sector) employers depending on taxpayers to subsidise the low wages they pay whilst they take all the profits. Surely the more workers earning a reasonable wage and not needing to claim benefits the better for all of us. HillsidePaul
  • Score: 9

5:21pm Sat 19 Jul 14

southy says...

HillsidePaul wrote:
Contrary to what the right wing press want you to believe most people claiming benefits are in work but have to claim to make ends meet.

Many of those will be on minimum wage. Paying a living wage will take a lot of them out of benefits. So everyone gains. Too many (mainly private sector) employers depending on taxpayers to subsidise the low wages they pay whilst they take all the profits.

Surely the more workers earning a reasonable wage and not needing to claim benefits the better for all of us.
Agreed with most BUT come the living wage will come Enforce Zero Contracts, in which case they would be the same as NWL needing to claim benefits
[quote][p][bold]HillsidePaul[/bold] wrote: Contrary to what the right wing press want you to believe most people claiming benefits are in work but have to claim to make ends meet. Many of those will be on minimum wage. Paying a living wage will take a lot of them out of benefits. So everyone gains. Too many (mainly private sector) employers depending on taxpayers to subsidise the low wages they pay whilst they take all the profits. Surely the more workers earning a reasonable wage and not needing to claim benefits the better for all of us.[/p][/quote]Agreed with most BUT come the living wage will come Enforce Zero Contracts, in which case they would be the same as NWL needing to claim benefits southy
  • Score: -3

5:22pm Sat 19 Jul 14

southy says...

HillsidePaul wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
There is no such thing as a low paid job working for the Council.
I'm yet to see a Council job advertised at minimum wage!
Errrr you seem to have missed the point of the story. Of course you won't see a council that has agreed to Pay a living wage advertising jobs at minimum wage.
Aso there a number of jobs with the Council that do pay the NWL
[quote][p][bold]HillsidePaul[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]There is no such thing as a low paid job working for the Council. I'm yet to see a Council job advertised at minimum wage![/p][/quote]Errrr you seem to have missed the point of the story. Of course you won't see a council that has agreed to Pay a living wage advertising jobs at minimum wage.[/p][/quote]Aso there a number of jobs with the Council that do pay the NWL southy
  • Score: -8

5:27pm Sat 19 Jul 14

Graham, North of Watford says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
I'm hoping someone can help me with this one.

The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21.

Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct.

Surely i'm missing something here?
No at all.

The point about a minimu wage is that it is a minimum.

It was never meant to be enough to live on. The Living Wage is a slightly higher amount which has been calculated to pay workers enough to live on and not go into debt each week.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I'm hoping someone can help me with this one. The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21. Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct. Surely i'm missing something here?[/p][/quote]No at all. The point about a minimu wage is that it is a minimum. It was never meant to be enough to live on. The Living Wage is a slightly higher amount which has been calculated to pay workers enough to live on and not go into debt each week. Graham, North of Watford
  • Score: 6

5:38pm Sat 19 Jul 14

IronLady2010 says...

Graham, North of Watford wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
I'm hoping someone can help me with this one.

The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21.

Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct.

Surely i'm missing something here?
No at all.

The point about a minimu wage is that it is a minimum.

It was never meant to be enough to live on. The Living Wage is a slightly higher amount which has been calculated to pay workers enough to live on and not go into debt each week.
OK I get it, one rule for Council workers and another for everyone else. Yet they get a pension chucked in.

Seems fair!
[quote][p][bold]Graham, North of Watford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I'm hoping someone can help me with this one. The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21. Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct. Surely i'm missing something here?[/p][/quote]No at all. The point about a minimu wage is that it is a minimum. It was never meant to be enough to live on. The Living Wage is a slightly higher amount which has been calculated to pay workers enough to live on and not go into debt each week.[/p][/quote]OK I get it, one rule for Council workers and another for everyone else. Yet they get a pension chucked in. Seems fair! IronLady2010
  • Score: -2

9:20pm Sat 19 Jul 14

loosehead says...

At a time where service4s ,care homes & jobs are being lost can we as a city afford to pay a living wage? How are they going to pay for it?
Will there be more job losses?
What a load of people don't seem to understand is wages were higher until Brown made that catastrophic mistake of letting any Pole come here for work whilst Germany & France blocked them.
This saw Polish companies under bidding British companies & paying Polish Workers below the minimum wage.
This caught on & British companies started to employ more Foreign workers for the minimum wage so if you a Brit wanted a job or to keep a job you took the minimum wage or a pay cut.
If Labour win power & enforce this then the companies will look at Foreign workers or move abroad.
So again unemployment will rise is this what we really want?
Why is it shop workers can exist on lower wages to council workers?
At a time where service4s ,care homes & jobs are being lost can we as a city afford to pay a living wage? How are they going to pay for it? Will there be more job losses? What a load of people don't seem to understand is wages were higher until Brown made that catastrophic mistake of letting any Pole come here for work whilst Germany & France blocked them. This saw Polish companies under bidding British companies & paying Polish Workers below the minimum wage. This caught on & British companies started to employ more Foreign workers for the minimum wage so if you a Brit wanted a job or to keep a job you took the minimum wage or a pay cut. If Labour win power & enforce this then the companies will look at Foreign workers or move abroad. So again unemployment will rise is this what we really want? Why is it shop workers can exist on lower wages to council workers? loosehead
  • Score: -2

9:21pm Sat 19 Jul 14

Ginger_cyclist says...

tootle wrote:
Living wage is a misnomer. If workers on the minimum wage didn't pay tax or NI then they would be bringing home more than they will on the "living" wage. IMO the government is immoral taking tax off people and then telling them they need more money to live on!. That'll be another Council Tax rise I can't afford next year. Since I am pretty sure most council Workers are on above this rate anyway maybe they could pay for the increase by cutting Councillors salaries and expenses. If what they want to do is change terms and conditions they should be honest about it - only problem with that is the last party to try that got booted out!.
I'm being paid less than living wage at the moment and I'm a council employee.
[quote][p][bold]tootle[/bold] wrote: Living wage is a misnomer. If workers on the minimum wage didn't pay tax or NI then they would be bringing home more than they will on the "living" wage. IMO the government is immoral taking tax off people and then telling them they need more money to live on!. That'll be another Council Tax rise I can't afford next year. Since I am pretty sure most council Workers are on above this rate anyway maybe they could pay for the increase by cutting Councillors salaries and expenses. If what they want to do is change terms and conditions they should be honest about it - only problem with that is the last party to try that got booted out!.[/p][/quote]I'm being paid less than living wage at the moment and I'm a council employee. Ginger_cyclist
  • Score: 1

9:22pm Sat 19 Jul 14

Ginger_cyclist says...

richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
I went to college for 2 years, stick your misconceptions where the sun don't shine.
[quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]I went to college for 2 years, stick your misconceptions where the sun don't shine. Ginger_cyclist
  • Score: 4

9:24pm Sat 19 Jul 14

loosehead says...

southy wrote:
HillsidePaul wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
There is no such thing as a low paid job working for the Council.
I'm yet to see a Council job advertised at minimum wage!
Errrr you seem to have missed the point of the story. Of course you won't see a council that has agreed to Pay a living wage advertising jobs at minimum wage.
Aso there a number of jobs with the Council that do pay the NWL
Southy how many jobs or services will be lost to do this? wouldn't it have been better to maybe cut the top earners wages to raise the lower workers wages?
Maybe cut the amount of cabinet posts?
Or say link up with the Isle of Wight saving both councils millions? OH! that was already planned until Labour scrapped it.
How can the unions accept job cuts whilst increasing pay?
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]HillsidePaul[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]There is no such thing as a low paid job working for the Council. I'm yet to see a Council job advertised at minimum wage![/p][/quote]Errrr you seem to have missed the point of the story. Of course you won't see a council that has agreed to Pay a living wage advertising jobs at minimum wage.[/p][/quote]Aso there a number of jobs with the Council that do pay the NWL[/p][/quote]Southy how many jobs or services will be lost to do this? wouldn't it have been better to maybe cut the top earners wages to raise the lower workers wages? Maybe cut the amount of cabinet posts? Or say link up with the Isle of Wight saving both councils millions? OH! that was already planned until Labour scrapped it. How can the unions accept job cuts whilst increasing pay? loosehead
  • Score: 2

9:24pm Sat 19 Jul 14

Ginger_cyclist says...

richieroo wrote:
southy wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
How about going to Uni ending up with a massive debt and not have a job at all
Luckily I did an apprenticeship which taught me real work skills which have led on to a well paid job or go to uni & study in a skill which is needed engineering or a doctor etc rather than media studies etc!!. ;-)
Mny engineering students won't end up with a job in engineering at all.
[quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]How about going to Uni ending up with a massive debt and not have a job at all[/p][/quote]Luckily I did an apprenticeship which taught me real work skills which have led on to a well paid job or go to uni & study in a skill which is needed engineering or a doctor etc rather than media studies etc!!. ;-)[/p][/quote]Mny engineering students won't end up with a job in engineering at all. Ginger_cyclist
  • Score: 0

11:24pm Sat 19 Jul 14

Linesman says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
I'm hoping someone can help me with this one.

The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21.

Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct.

Surely i'm missing something here?
You certainly are.

There is a difference between 'Minimum Wage' and 'Living Wage.'
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I'm hoping someone can help me with this one. The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21. Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct. Surely i'm missing something here?[/p][/quote]You certainly are. There is a difference between 'Minimum Wage' and 'Living Wage.' Linesman
  • Score: 0

11:27pm Sat 19 Jul 14

Linesman says...

loosehead wrote:
At a time where service4s ,care homes & jobs are being lost can we as a city afford to pay a living wage? How are they going to pay for it?
Will there be more job losses?
What a load of people don't seem to understand is wages were higher until Brown made that catastrophic mistake of letting any Pole come here for work whilst Germany & France blocked them.
This saw Polish companies under bidding British companies & paying Polish Workers below the minimum wage.
This caught on & British companies started to employ more Foreign workers for the minimum wage so if you a Brit wanted a job or to keep a job you took the minimum wage or a pay cut.
If Labour win power & enforce this then the companies will look at Foreign workers or move abroad.
So again unemployment will rise is this what we really want?
Why is it shop workers can exist on lower wages to council workers?
It does not surprise me that you would object to people getting a Living Wage, and then bellyache because they qualify for benefits and a ticket to the Food Bank.

A sure sign of a genu, caring Tory voter.
[quote][p][bold]loosehead[/bold] wrote: At a time where service4s ,care homes & jobs are being lost can we as a city afford to pay a living wage? How are they going to pay for it? Will there be more job losses? What a load of people don't seem to understand is wages were higher until Brown made that catastrophic mistake of letting any Pole come here for work whilst Germany & France blocked them. This saw Polish companies under bidding British companies & paying Polish Workers below the minimum wage. This caught on & British companies started to employ more Foreign workers for the minimum wage so if you a Brit wanted a job or to keep a job you took the minimum wage or a pay cut. If Labour win power & enforce this then the companies will look at Foreign workers or move abroad. So again unemployment will rise is this what we really want? Why is it shop workers can exist on lower wages to council workers?[/p][/quote]It does not surprise me that you would object to people getting a Living Wage, and then bellyache because they qualify for benefits and a ticket to the Food Bank. A sure sign of a genu, caring Tory voter. Linesman
  • Score: 1

12:30am Sun 20 Jul 14

_watchman says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
Graham, North of Watford wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
I'm hoping someone can help me with this one.

The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21.

Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct.

Surely i'm missing something here?
No at all.

The point about a minimu wage is that it is a minimum.

It was never meant to be enough to live on. The Living Wage is a slightly higher amount which has been calculated to pay workers enough to live on and not go into debt each week.
OK I get it, one rule for Council workers and another for everyone else. Yet they get a pension chucked in.

Seems fair!
I love the fact that IronLady2010 expresses an opinion on a subject that had to be explained to them in the first instance
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Graham, North of Watford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I'm hoping someone can help me with this one. The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21. Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct. Surely i'm missing something here?[/p][/quote]No at all. The point about a minimu wage is that it is a minimum. It was never meant to be enough to live on. The Living Wage is a slightly higher amount which has been calculated to pay workers enough to live on and not go into debt each week.[/p][/quote]OK I get it, one rule for Council workers and another for everyone else. Yet they get a pension chucked in. Seems fair![/p][/quote]I love the fact that IronLady2010 expresses an opinion on a subject that had to be explained to them in the first instance _watchman
  • Score: 3

7:53am Sun 20 Jul 14

loosehead says...

I personally have nothing against "Living wage" but how can a city that's cutting jobs & services afford to pay such an increase in wages,redundancy & pensions?
I have suggested ways to cover the overall wage bill by cutting higher earners wages & cutting cabinet posts so this Tory has put up a method to fund it.
there are other ways to do this, put out services to tender & then with what you have introduce the living wage.
The only problem then is you'll have the same problems as workers in the private sector already have.
competition from foreign companies paying foreign workers less than the minimum wage so forget the Living wage but accept the minimum wage if you want a job will be what they'll be told.
But hey once again Public sectors aren't living in the real world & nor are this Labour Council.
Isn't/wasn't Letts a teacher? isn't that a public sector worker?
I personally have nothing against "Living wage" but how can a city that's cutting jobs & services afford to pay such an increase in wages,redundancy & pensions? I have suggested ways to cover the overall wage bill by cutting higher earners wages & cutting cabinet posts so this Tory has put up a method to fund it. there are other ways to do this, put out services to tender & then with what you have introduce the living wage. The only problem then is you'll have the same problems as workers in the private sector already have. competition from foreign companies paying foreign workers less than the minimum wage so forget the Living wage but accept the minimum wage if you want a job will be what they'll be told. But hey once again Public sectors aren't living in the real world & nor are this Labour Council. Isn't/wasn't Letts a teacher? isn't that a public sector worker? loosehead
  • Score: -4

9:14am Sun 20 Jul 14

thinklikealocal says...

The article doesn't give the whole story. The living wage is one of many changes to terms and conditions being proposed here. Some of the changes are necessary to meet equal pay legislation. Some of the changes are necessary to end historic anomalies between groups of staff that see some paid more shift and travel allowances than others. The staff currently losing out on pay and allowances could mostly be summarised as woman working part time hence the equal pay issues. There will be winners and losers from the changes, however, there will be much more 'fairness and transparency' as a result. About time this difficult issue was tackled so well done the ruling Administration.

As far as I see it, the changes are broadly supported by the Unions, the point of the ballot being 'democracy' at work.

It is worth noting that had the minimum wage risen in line with inflation and pay in general since it was introduced it would be at the level of the 'living wage'. This was acknowledged by the Coalition some time ago.
The article doesn't give the whole story. The living wage is one of many changes to terms and conditions being proposed here. Some of the changes are necessary to meet equal pay legislation. Some of the changes are necessary to end historic anomalies between groups of staff that see some paid more shift and travel allowances than others. The staff currently losing out on pay and allowances could mostly be summarised as woman working part time hence the equal pay issues. There will be winners and losers from the changes, however, there will be much more 'fairness and transparency' as a result. About time this difficult issue was tackled so well done the ruling Administration. As far as I see it, the changes are broadly supported by the Unions, the point of the ballot being 'democracy' at work. It is worth noting that had the minimum wage risen in line with inflation and pay in general since it was introduced it would be at the level of the 'living wage'. This was acknowledged by the Coalition some time ago. thinklikealocal
  • Score: 5

9:24am Sun 20 Jul 14

andysaints007 says...

I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month! andysaints007
  • Score: 1

9:34am Sun 20 Jul 14

thinklikealocal says...

andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
[quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know! thinklikealocal
  • Score: 2

10:12am Sun 20 Jul 14

southy says...

thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
[quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement southy
  • Score: 0

10:34am Sun 20 Jul 14

southy says...

ClunkClick wrote:
southy wrote:
But independent anti-cuts councillors Keith Morrell and Don Thomas voted against the proposals, saying that they supported introducing the Living Wage but objected to a condition which would see the council dismiss and re-engage staff if union ballots rejected the proposed changes.

You can see why Keith and Don objected I would to, it is wrong to dismiss and then re-gage staff if the Union rejects the offer, this is a way for the Council to bring in Zero Hour Contracts on the staff, the Council is a total disgrace to enforce it on the staff, Letts and the rest of the Labour Council are proving to be more like the Torys than the Torys are.
Southy! Labour ready to use the Conservatives method of 2011, to force through changes to employee contracts. You cannot make this stuff up!
Yes thats is what the Labour Council intend to do printed in the Echo

""But independent anti-cuts councillors Keith Morrell and Don Thomas voted against the proposals, saying that they supported introducing the Living Wage but objected to a condition which would see the council dismiss and re-engage staff if union ballots rejected the proposed changes.""

Just by that statement printed in the Echo tells you that the Labour Council will act the same way as the Tory Council if they don't like how the Unions voted
[quote][p][bold]ClunkClick[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: But independent anti-cuts councillors Keith Morrell and Don Thomas voted against the proposals, saying that they supported introducing the Living Wage but objected to a condition which would see the council dismiss and re-engage staff if union ballots rejected the proposed changes. You can see why Keith and Don objected I would to, it is wrong to dismiss and then re-gage staff if the Union rejects the offer, this is a way for the Council to bring in Zero Hour Contracts on the staff, the Council is a total disgrace to enforce it on the staff, Letts and the rest of the Labour Council are proving to be more like the Torys than the Torys are.[/p][/quote]Southy! Labour ready to use the Conservatives method of 2011, to force through changes to employee contracts. You cannot make this stuff up![/p][/quote]Yes thats is what the Labour Council intend to do printed in the Echo ""But independent anti-cuts councillors Keith Morrell and Don Thomas voted against the proposals, saying that they supported introducing the Living Wage but objected to a condition which would see the council dismiss and re-engage staff if union ballots rejected the proposed changes."" Just by that statement printed in the Echo tells you that the Labour Council will act the same way as the Tory Council if they don't like how the Unions voted southy
  • Score: 1

10:47am Sun 20 Jul 14

andysaints007 says...

southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You don't need to explain how pensions work to me, I have been selling them for long enough! I didn't say they were free! My point was althought the employee 'contributes' to their scheme - you try seeing how much someone in the private sector has to pay to get the equivelant! If you don't understand disability benefits then you better google it !
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You don't need to explain how pensions work to me, I have been selling them for long enough! I didn't say they were free! My point was althought the employee 'contributes' to their scheme - you try seeing how much someone in the private sector has to pay to get the equivelant! If you don't understand disability benefits then you better google it ! andysaints007
  • Score: 0

11:00am Sun 20 Jul 14

Ronnie G says...

OMG! So does this mean the strikes in 2011 were completely politically motivated & totally unnecessary?!!
Ha,ha,ha, You daft union people are being so easily led by your lying union leaders (YES,AGAIN,DOH!)
BRITISH COMEDY AT ITS VERY BEST!!!
OMG! So does this mean the strikes in 2011 were completely politically motivated & totally unnecessary?!! Ha,ha,ha, You daft union people are being so easily led by your lying union leaders (YES,AGAIN,DOH!) BRITISH COMEDY AT ITS VERY BEST!!! Ronnie G
  • Score: 0

11:17am Sun 20 Jul 14

Torchie1 says...

southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath. Torchie1
  • Score: 0

11:22am Sun 20 Jul 14

sarfhamton says...

Will this be extended to sub contractors? Most services are now out sourced anyway.
Will this be extended to sub contractors? Most services are now out sourced anyway. sarfhamton
  • Score: 2

11:36am Sun 20 Jul 14

southy says...

Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.
No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate.
Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.
[quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.[/p][/quote]No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate. Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers. southy
  • Score: 1

11:36am Sun 20 Jul 14

southy says...

Going back some years back to the 80's while doing a contract this notice appeared, It was apt then and its more apt now.

A man in hot air balloon realise he was lost. He reduced his altitude and spotted a man below. He descended a bit more and shouted.
"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago but I don't know where I am"

The man below replied.
" you are in a hot air ballon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground, You are between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude"

"You must be an ex-seaman" said the balloonist.

"I am" replied the man" How did you know.

"Well", replied the balloonist, "Every thing you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost.
Frankly, you have not been much help so far"

The man below responded, "You must be in management"

"I am", replied the ballonist, "But how did you know?"

"Well", said the man "You don't know where you are or where you are going, You have risen to where you are due to a large quantily of hot air.
You made a promise, which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in the same position you were in before we met, just now, somehow, it's My fault.
Going back some years back to the 80's while doing a contract this notice appeared, It was apt then and its more apt now. A man in hot air balloon realise he was lost. He reduced his altitude and spotted a man below. He descended a bit more and shouted. "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago but I don't know where I am" The man below replied. " you are in a hot air ballon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground, You are between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude" "You must be an ex-seaman" said the balloonist. "I am" replied the man" How did you know. "Well", replied the balloonist, "Every thing you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost. Frankly, you have not been much help so far" The man below responded, "You must be in management" "I am", replied the ballonist, "But how did you know?" "Well", said the man "You don't know where you are or where you are going, You have risen to where you are due to a large quantily of hot air. You made a promise, which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in the same position you were in before we met, just now, somehow, it's My fault. southy
  • Score: 5

11:46am Sun 20 Jul 14

Torchie1 says...

southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.
No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate.
Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.
I see your understanding of pensions is as good as your understanding of Tax Free ISAs that you are convinced people have to pay tax on .
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.[/p][/quote]No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate. Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.[/p][/quote]I see your understanding of pensions is as good as your understanding of Tax Free ISAs that you are convinced people have to pay tax on . Torchie1
  • Score: 0

11:50am Sun 20 Jul 14

Torchie1 says...

southy wrote:
Going back some years back to the 80's while doing a contract this notice appeared, It was apt then and its more apt now.

A man in hot air balloon realise he was lost. He reduced his altitude and spotted a man below. He descended a bit more and shouted.
"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago but I don't know where I am"

The man below replied.
" you are in a hot air ballon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground, You are between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude"

"You must be an ex-seaman" said the balloonist.

"I am" replied the man" How did you know.

"Well", replied the balloonist, "Every thing you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost.
Frankly, you have not been much help so far"

The man below responded, "You must be in management"

"I am", replied the ballonist, "But how did you know?"

"Well", said the man "You don't know where you are or where you are going, You have risen to where you are due to a large quantily of hot air.
You made a promise, which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in the same position you were in before we met, just now, somehow, it's My fault.
Presumably this story is the equivalent of the legal firm just sacked by the NUM who used a fictitious name Thickas Toosh Ortplanks to illustrate the miner that they were supposed to be representing.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: Going back some years back to the 80's while doing a contract this notice appeared, It was apt then and its more apt now. A man in hot air balloon realise he was lost. He reduced his altitude and spotted a man below. He descended a bit more and shouted. "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago but I don't know where I am" The man below replied. " you are in a hot air ballon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground, You are between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude" "You must be an ex-seaman" said the balloonist. "I am" replied the man" How did you know. "Well", replied the balloonist, "Every thing you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost. Frankly, you have not been much help so far" The man below responded, "You must be in management" "I am", replied the ballonist, "But how did you know?" "Well", said the man "You don't know where you are or where you are going, You have risen to where you are due to a large quantily of hot air. You made a promise, which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in the same position you were in before we met, just now, somehow, it's My fault.[/p][/quote]Presumably this story is the equivalent of the legal firm just sacked by the NUM who used a fictitious name Thickas Toosh Ortplanks to illustrate the miner that they were supposed to be representing. Torchie1
  • Score: -2

11:50am Sun 20 Jul 14

southy says...

Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.
No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate.
Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.
I see your understanding of pensions is as good as your understanding of Tax Free ISAs that you are convinced people have to pay tax on .
I understand this much which you refuse to ackknowledge, those workers work for there private pensions it don't come free every penny thats put into it the workers have earned it, companys are not going to put money into private pension of there own backs.
Stop trying to take it pass the point who puts the money in a pension in the first place and what they gain out of intrest is another matter.
[quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.[/p][/quote]No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate. Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.[/p][/quote]I see your understanding of pensions is as good as your understanding of Tax Free ISAs that you are convinced people have to pay tax on .[/p][/quote]I understand this much which you refuse to ackknowledge, those workers work for there private pensions it don't come free every penny thats put into it the workers have earned it, companys are not going to put money into private pension of there own backs. Stop trying to take it pass the point who puts the money in a pension in the first place and what they gain out of intrest is another matter. southy
  • Score: 1

12:22pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Torchie1 says...

southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.
No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate.
Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.
I see your understanding of pensions is as good as your understanding of Tax Free ISAs that you are convinced people have to pay tax on .
I understand this much which you refuse to ackknowledge, those workers work for there private pensions it don't come free every penny thats put into it the workers have earned it, companys are not going to put money into private pension of there own backs.
Stop trying to take it pass the point who puts the money in a pension in the first place and what they gain out of intrest is another matter.
I'll note the change in your argument and accept that you've realised your mistake but won't embarrass you further by probing your understanding of the employers National Insurance contributions.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.[/p][/quote]No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate. Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.[/p][/quote]I see your understanding of pensions is as good as your understanding of Tax Free ISAs that you are convinced people have to pay tax on .[/p][/quote]I understand this much which you refuse to ackknowledge, those workers work for there private pensions it don't come free every penny thats put into it the workers have earned it, companys are not going to put money into private pension of there own backs. Stop trying to take it pass the point who puts the money in a pension in the first place and what they gain out of intrest is another matter.[/p][/quote]I'll note the change in your argument and accept that you've realised your mistake but won't embarrass you further by probing your understanding of the employers National Insurance contributions. Torchie1
  • Score: 0

12:52pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Linesman says...

loosehead wrote:
I personally have nothing against "Living wage" but how can a city that's cutting jobs & services afford to pay such an increase in wages,redundancy & pensions?
I have suggested ways to cover the overall wage bill by cutting higher earners wages & cutting cabinet posts so this Tory has put up a method to fund it.
there are other ways to do this, put out services to tender & then with what you have introduce the living wage.
The only problem then is you'll have the same problems as workers in the private sector already have.
competition from foreign companies paying foreign workers less than the minimum wage so forget the Living wage but accept the minimum wage if you want a job will be what they'll be told.
But hey once again Public sectors aren't living in the real world & nor are this Labour Council.
Isn't/wasn't Letts a teacher? isn't that a public sector worker?
For a start, they are not wasting money on prestige projects that drain the city's finances, and continue to do so.

They are putting People before Prestige, which is what they were elected to do.

As you could not even sort out your own domestic situation with regard the proposed move to Liverpool, I hate to think what mess the city would be in if it took advice from you.
[quote][p][bold]loosehead[/bold] wrote: I personally have nothing against "Living wage" but how can a city that's cutting jobs & services afford to pay such an increase in wages,redundancy & pensions? I have suggested ways to cover the overall wage bill by cutting higher earners wages & cutting cabinet posts so this Tory has put up a method to fund it. there are other ways to do this, put out services to tender & then with what you have introduce the living wage. The only problem then is you'll have the same problems as workers in the private sector already have. competition from foreign companies paying foreign workers less than the minimum wage so forget the Living wage but accept the minimum wage if you want a job will be what they'll be told. But hey once again Public sectors aren't living in the real world & nor are this Labour Council. Isn't/wasn't Letts a teacher? isn't that a public sector worker?[/p][/quote]For a start, they are not wasting money on prestige projects that drain the city's finances, and continue to do so. They are putting People before Prestige, which is what they were elected to do. As you could not even sort out your own domestic situation with regard the proposed move to Liverpool, I hate to think what mess the city would be in if it took advice from you. Linesman
  • Score: 0

1:06pm Sun 20 Jul 14

southy says...

Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.
No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate.
Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.
I see your understanding of pensions is as good as your understanding of Tax Free ISAs that you are convinced people have to pay tax on .
I understand this much which you refuse to ackknowledge, those workers work for there private pensions it don't come free every penny thats put into it the workers have earned it, companys are not going to put money into private pension of there own backs.
Stop trying to take it pass the point who puts the money in a pension in the first place and what they gain out of intrest is another matter.
I'll note the change in your argument and accept that you've realised your mistake but won't embarrass you further by probing your understanding of the employers National Insurance contributions.
I have not change I just drag you back on trackm your the one that wanted to drift into isa not me.
[quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.[/p][/quote]No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate. Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.[/p][/quote]I see your understanding of pensions is as good as your understanding of Tax Free ISAs that you are convinced people have to pay tax on .[/p][/quote]I understand this much which you refuse to ackknowledge, those workers work for there private pensions it don't come free every penny thats put into it the workers have earned it, companys are not going to put money into private pension of there own backs. Stop trying to take it pass the point who puts the money in a pension in the first place and what they gain out of intrest is another matter.[/p][/quote]I'll note the change in your argument and accept that you've realised your mistake but won't embarrass you further by probing your understanding of the employers National Insurance contributions.[/p][/quote]I have not change I just drag you back on trackm your the one that wanted to drift into isa not me. southy
  • Score: 1

2:08pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

southy wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
How about going to Uni ending up with a massive debt and not have a job at all
Southy's selection bias fails miserably once again.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]How about going to Uni ending up with a massive debt and not have a job at all[/p][/quote]Southy's selection bias fails miserably once again. Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 0

2:08pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
There is no such thing as a low paid job working for the Council.
I'm yet to see a Council job advertised at minimum wage!
A job doesn't have to be minimum wage to be low paid, though.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]There is no such thing as a low paid job working for the Council. I'm yet to see a Council job advertised at minimum wage![/p][/quote]A job doesn't have to be minimum wage to be low paid, though. Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 3

2:11pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
Graham, North of Watford wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
I'm hoping someone can help me with this one.

The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21.

Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct.

Surely i'm missing something here?
No at all.

The point about a minimu wage is that it is a minimum.

It was never meant to be enough to live on. The Living Wage is a slightly higher amount which has been calculated to pay workers enough to live on and not go into debt each week.
OK I get it, one rule for Council workers and another for everyone else. Yet they get a pension chucked in.

Seems fair!
No, not really. The private sector is at liberty to agree to pay more than the minimum wage, why not the public sector? Anything else WOULD be "one rule for them, another for everyone else". Please don't try and paint this as a public sector conspiracy.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Graham, North of Watford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I'm hoping someone can help me with this one. The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21. Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct. Surely i'm missing something here?[/p][/quote]No at all. The point about a minimu wage is that it is a minimum. It was never meant to be enough to live on. The Living Wage is a slightly higher amount which has been calculated to pay workers enough to live on and not go into debt each week.[/p][/quote]OK I get it, one rule for Council workers and another for everyone else. Yet they get a pension chucked in. Seems fair![/p][/quote]No, not really. The private sector is at liberty to agree to pay more than the minimum wage, why not the public sector? Anything else WOULD be "one rule for them, another for everyone else". Please don't try and paint this as a public sector conspiracy. Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 3

2:14pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
You ever hear the phrase "There but for the grace of god go I"? It means misfortune could easily beset any one of us, regardless of how much we think we're in control of our destiny. You got lucky, you found a well-paid job. For now. Don't go sneering at those less fortunate, because you, like most of us, are one unforeseen disaster away from total ruin, and all the "I did an apprenticeship lol" in the world won't mitigate that. Count your blessings and try having a bit of empathy. What are you going to do when they replace whatever trade it is you've got with a robot, and you find yourself useless to society? Will you be here sneering at yourself?
[quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]You ever hear the phrase "There but for the grace of god go I"? It means misfortune could easily beset any one of us, regardless of how much we think we're in control of our destiny. You got lucky, you found a well-paid job. For now. Don't go sneering at those less fortunate, because you, like most of us, are one unforeseen disaster away from total ruin, and all the "I did an apprenticeship lol" in the world won't mitigate that. Count your blessings and try having a bit of empathy. What are you going to do when they replace whatever trade it is you've got with a robot, and you find yourself useless to society? Will you be here sneering at yourself? Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 2

2:16pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution.

Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution. Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed. Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 2

2:20pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

southy wrote:
Torchie1 wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.
No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate.
Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.
Yes! Conned workers into having a pension!

You really are a buffoon. You have no idea whatsoever about economics. None at all. You have this rosy little narrow view of the world in which some entity known as The Workers are for some reason owed a living by people who have the gumption to get off their backsides and work for themselves. Without these employers that you are convinced are Literally Hitler and Satan rolled into one, your precious The Workers would still be sat around bartering their chickens for cobbling services, to the tune of "bring out your dead". So what if the evil old employers are waxing fat on their profits? They're the ones that have invested and taken on all the risk. Thinking that turning up, cap in hand, and saying "I'll do a bit of work for a few hours a day, so I am now entitled to everything you have" is friggin' ridiculous.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torchie1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]Any employee in a pension scheme has contributions made to the scheme by the employer. You'll only look more ridiculous if you deny it so don't bother, but because people give holidays and iPhones a higher priority than pensions, the government has changed the system of pension enrolment which you can read all about on the Pension Regulators website. As you found the Magna Carta and the Treaty of Lisbon so easy to understand, you'll have no problem grasping the reality of the pension scheme listed on there. Perhaps you may be man enough to confess that you were wrong about the contributions but I won't be holding my breath.[/p][/quote]No if they did not have a private pension there hourly rate would be higher, but it is deducted as part of the working conditions and they take a lower hourly rate because of the private pension. Oh it sounds good on the contract that the company pays part of the private pension but the truth is that the worker works for them to be able to do it, Some contracts you can hop out of the company private pension and you will get a higher hourly rate. Maybe its a case of that I understand how management thinks and how they will try and con its workers.[/p][/quote]Yes! Conned workers into having a pension! You really are a buffoon. You have no idea whatsoever about economics. None at all. You have this rosy little narrow view of the world in which some entity known as The Workers are for some reason owed a living by people who have the gumption to get off their backsides and work for themselves. Without these employers that you are convinced are Literally Hitler and Satan rolled into one, your precious The Workers would still be sat around bartering their chickens for cobbling services, to the tune of "bring out your dead". So what if the evil old employers are waxing fat on their profits? They're the ones that have invested and taken on all the risk. Thinking that turning up, cap in hand, and saying "I'll do a bit of work for a few hours a day, so I am now entitled to everything you have" is friggin' ridiculous. Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 0

2:31pm Sun 20 Jul 14

IronLady2010 says...

_watchman wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
Graham, North of Watford wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
I'm hoping someone can help me with this one.

The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21.

Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct.

Surely i'm missing something here?
No at all.

The point about a minimu wage is that it is a minimum.

It was never meant to be enough to live on. The Living Wage is a slightly higher amount which has been calculated to pay workers enough to live on and not go into debt each week.
OK I get it, one rule for Council workers and another for everyone else. Yet they get a pension chucked in.

Seems fair!
I love the fact that IronLady2010 expresses an opinion on a subject that had to be explained to them in the first instance
I understood it alright, I just couldn't believe it.

One day we read the Council is facing making job cuts and service cuts etc.

Then the next day they're increasing pay, where is this money going to come from and how many MORE jobs will be lost to pay for this?

If my business was facing hard times, the last thing i'd do is increase my outgoings.
[quote][p][bold]_watchman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Graham, North of Watford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I'm hoping someone can help me with this one. The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21. Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct. Surely i'm missing something here?[/p][/quote]No at all. The point about a minimu wage is that it is a minimum. It was never meant to be enough to live on. The Living Wage is a slightly higher amount which has been calculated to pay workers enough to live on and not go into debt each week.[/p][/quote]OK I get it, one rule for Council workers and another for everyone else. Yet they get a pension chucked in. Seems fair![/p][/quote]I love the fact that IronLady2010 expresses an opinion on a subject that had to be explained to them in the first instance[/p][/quote]I understood it alright, I just couldn't believe it. One day we read the Council is facing making job cuts and service cuts etc. Then the next day they're increasing pay, where is this money going to come from and how many MORE jobs will be lost to pay for this? If my business was facing hard times, the last thing i'd do is increase my outgoings. IronLady2010
  • Score: 1

2:31pm Sun 20 Jul 14

southy says...

Charlie Bucket wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution.

Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.
Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer.
I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source

"Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed."
Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions.
Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round
[quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution. Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.[/p][/quote]Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer. I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source "Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed." Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions. Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round southy
  • Score: 0

2:36pm Sun 20 Jul 14

IronLady2010 says...

southy wrote:
Charlie Bucket wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution.

Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.
Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer.
I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source

"Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed."
Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions.
Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round
I think I see the angle you're coming from.

But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal.

Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution. Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.[/p][/quote]Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer. I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source "Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed." Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions. Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round[/p][/quote]I think I see the angle you're coming from. But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal. Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control. IronLady2010
  • Score: 0

2:38pm Sun 20 Jul 14

southy says...

Charlie Bucket wrote:
southy wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
How about going to Uni ending up with a massive debt and not have a job at all
Southy's selection bias fails miserably once again.
No the fact is that there is over 1 million short term youth unemployment over 1 million long term youth unemployment and over 1 million that are unemployed but don't get benefits, most that go to UNI find jobs that they never studied for they end up flipping burgers or some other very poorly paid job after getting loans to be able to attend UNI
So no its not bias at all, its just what is and what is happening
[quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]How about going to Uni ending up with a massive debt and not have a job at all[/p][/quote]Southy's selection bias fails miserably once again.[/p][/quote]No the fact is that there is over 1 million short term youth unemployment over 1 million long term youth unemployment and over 1 million that are unemployed but don't get benefits, most that go to UNI find jobs that they never studied for they end up flipping burgers or some other very poorly paid job after getting loans to be able to attend UNI So no its not bias at all, its just what is and what is happening southy
  • Score: 1

2:42pm Sun 20 Jul 14

southy says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
southy wrote:
Charlie Bucket wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution.

Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.
Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer.
I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source

"Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed."
Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions.
Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round
I think I see the angle you're coming from.

But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal.

Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.
The Employer don't create jobs, its people needs that do that, an employer do very little but earns the most, it is very posible to create jobs in a co-op fashion
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution. Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.[/p][/quote]Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer. I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source "Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed." Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions. Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round[/p][/quote]I think I see the angle you're coming from. But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal. Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.[/p][/quote]The Employer don't create jobs, its people needs that do that, an employer do very little but earns the most, it is very posible to create jobs in a co-op fashion southy
  • Score: -3

2:49pm Sun 20 Jul 14

IronLady2010 says...

southy wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
southy wrote:
Charlie Bucket wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution.

Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.
Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer.
I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source

"Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed."
Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions.
Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round
I think I see the angle you're coming from.

But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal.

Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.
The Employer don't create jobs, its people needs that do that, an employer do very little but earns the most, it is very posible to create jobs in a co-op fashion
We live in a different world, obviously.

I am an employer, I invested my money into the business. I came up with a business plan and employed people to help me achieve my goals.

Now, without me setting up the business these people 'may' not have work.

Of course, they do the hard labour and I pay them to reflect that. Now if everyone like myself just closed shop and said that's enough, the entire country would just grind to a halt.

On the other hand, if all Council workers go on strike, we can bring in outside contractors, like myself to get things moving again as in what happened during the bin strikes, a private company was bought in.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution. Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.[/p][/quote]Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer. I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source "Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed." Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions. Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round[/p][/quote]I think I see the angle you're coming from. But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal. Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.[/p][/quote]The Employer don't create jobs, its people needs that do that, an employer do very little but earns the most, it is very posible to create jobs in a co-op fashion[/p][/quote]We live in a different world, obviously. I am an employer, I invested my money into the business. I came up with a business plan and employed people to help me achieve my goals. Now, without me setting up the business these people 'may' not have work. Of course, they do the hard labour and I pay them to reflect that. Now if everyone like myself just closed shop and said that's enough, the entire country would just grind to a halt. On the other hand, if all Council workers go on strike, we can bring in outside contractors, like myself to get things moving again as in what happened during the bin strikes, a private company was bought in. IronLady2010
  • Score: 3

3:26pm Sun 20 Jul 14

thinklikealocal says...

andysaints007 wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You don't need to explain how pensions work to me, I have been selling them for long enough! I didn't say they were free! My point was althought the employee 'contributes' to their scheme - you try seeing how much someone in the private sector has to pay to get the equivelant! If you don't understand disability benefits then you better google it !
I know what Disability Benefits are. I'm just not sure why you think Council staff have access to them as part of their contract of employment? The last I heard they were paid to any qualifying citizen by the DWP. Google it yourself.

Why don't you try seeing how much more earning potential private sector employees have. But then if you sell pensions you should know that. You probably also earn more than many of the professionals working at the Council whilst having a lot less responsibility. The extent of your responsibility is probably earning the most you can for yourself in commission.
[quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You don't need to explain how pensions work to me, I have been selling them for long enough! I didn't say they were free! My point was althought the employee 'contributes' to their scheme - you try seeing how much someone in the private sector has to pay to get the equivelant! If you don't understand disability benefits then you better google it ![/p][/quote]I know what Disability Benefits are. I'm just not sure why you think Council staff have access to them as part of their contract of employment? The last I heard they were paid to any qualifying citizen by the DWP. Google it yourself. Why don't you try seeing how much more earning potential private sector employees have. But then if you sell pensions you should know that. You probably also earn more than many of the professionals working at the Council whilst having a lot less responsibility. The extent of your responsibility is probably earning the most you can for yourself in commission. thinklikealocal
  • Score: 1

3:36pm Sun 20 Jul 14

IronLady2010 says...

thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You don't need to explain how pensions work to me, I have been selling them for long enough! I didn't say they were free! My point was althought the employee 'contributes' to their scheme - you try seeing how much someone in the private sector has to pay to get the equivelant! If you don't understand disability benefits then you better google it !
I know what Disability Benefits are. I'm just not sure why you think Council staff have access to them as part of their contract of employment? The last I heard they were paid to any qualifying citizen by the DWP. Google it yourself.

Why don't you try seeing how much more earning potential private sector employees have. But then if you sell pensions you should know that. You probably also earn more than many of the professionals working at the Council whilst having a lot less responsibility. The extent of your responsibility is probably earning the most you can for yourself in commission.
If andysaints does indeed sell pensions, you'll find he has a huge responsibility.

Have you seen the paperwork involved, he would have to cover his backside left right and centre.

The days of earning as much commission as possible is almost over, yes there are still flaws in the system.

I dabbled in Financial advice and chose to get out as it's bloomin hard work.
[quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You don't need to explain how pensions work to me, I have been selling them for long enough! I didn't say they were free! My point was althought the employee 'contributes' to their scheme - you try seeing how much someone in the private sector has to pay to get the equivelant! If you don't understand disability benefits then you better google it ![/p][/quote]I know what Disability Benefits are. I'm just not sure why you think Council staff have access to them as part of their contract of employment? The last I heard they were paid to any qualifying citizen by the DWP. Google it yourself. Why don't you try seeing how much more earning potential private sector employees have. But then if you sell pensions you should know that. You probably also earn more than many of the professionals working at the Council whilst having a lot less responsibility. The extent of your responsibility is probably earning the most you can for yourself in commission.[/p][/quote]If andysaints does indeed sell pensions, you'll find he has a huge responsibility. Have you seen the paperwork involved, he would have to cover his backside left right and centre. The days of earning as much commission as possible is almost over, yes there are still flaws in the system. I dabbled in Financial advice and chose to get out as it's bloomin hard work. IronLady2010
  • Score: 2

3:51pm Sun 20 Jul 14

richieroo says...

Ginger_cyclist wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
I went to college for 2 years, stick your misconceptions where the sun don't shine.
Ok, so should've worked harder at college in your instance then!. ;-)
[quote][p][bold]Ginger_cyclist[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]I went to college for 2 years, stick your misconceptions where the sun don't shine.[/p][/quote]Ok, so should've worked harder at college in your instance then!. ;-) richieroo
  • Score: 1

3:58pm Sun 20 Jul 14

richieroo says...

Charlie Bucket wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
You ever hear the phrase "There but for the grace of god go I"? It means misfortune could easily beset any one of us, regardless of how much we think we're in control of our destiny. You got lucky, you found a well-paid job. For now. Don't go sneering at those less fortunate, because you, like most of us, are one unforeseen disaster away from total ruin, and all the "I did an apprenticeship lol" in the world won't mitigate that. Count your blessings and try having a bit of empathy. What are you going to do when they replace whatever trade it is you've got with a robot, and you find yourself useless to society? Will you be here sneering at yourself?
It's not down to luck at all, that I have a good job. It's more down to the fact that I studied hard & still happily train now to keep my skills current & viable in the workplace. As for being replaced by a robot... That's still a long way of for me, as I do the tasks that often they can't or need to be overridden as their logic doesn't always come to the right conclusion.
[quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]You ever hear the phrase "There but for the grace of god go I"? It means misfortune could easily beset any one of us, regardless of how much we think we're in control of our destiny. You got lucky, you found a well-paid job. For now. Don't go sneering at those less fortunate, because you, like most of us, are one unforeseen disaster away from total ruin, and all the "I did an apprenticeship lol" in the world won't mitigate that. Count your blessings and try having a bit of empathy. What are you going to do when they replace whatever trade it is you've got with a robot, and you find yourself useless to society? Will you be here sneering at yourself?[/p][/quote]It's not down to luck at all, that I have a good job. It's more down to the fact that I studied hard & still happily train now to keep my skills current & viable in the workplace. As for being replaced by a robot... That's still a long way of for me, as I do the tasks that often they can't or need to be overridden as their logic doesn't always come to the right conclusion. richieroo
  • Score: -1

4:08pm Sun 20 Jul 14

tootle says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
I'm hoping someone can help me with this one.

The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21.

Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct.

Surely i'm missing something here?
Iron Lady you are missing nothing.

Puppy dog ED(Miliband) sometime ago invented the "living wage" which varied around the country as the minimum wage people needed to earn to bring home enough money to live on. The other parties jumped on the band wagon as did the unions. In Hampshire i think the living wage level is £7.45 but in Southampton it appears to be £7.31. All parties are now trying to brand employers who do not pay the "living wage" as evil. Have heard people say it is all the emploers fault without thinking things through.

If however the worker on £6.31 per hour - minimum wage set by the government - did not have to pay tax and NI on his earnings then he would already earn and bring home the Living wage(in most parts of the country) and the attached cut in employers NI could be passed on in part at least as a pay increase. Every one is a winner.

Which is why I think it is immoral of theGovernment to take tax out of the minimum wage. After all it is the government who is ensuring that these people do not bring home a living wage already.

Raise the tax threshold would also drastically cut the benefits bill, put more money on the high street and create jobs which the overpaid benefit doler outers could be given. But then it suits the Government(all parties) to have the electorate as dependant as possible upon state handouts and state protection.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: I'm hoping someone can help me with this one. The Government have set a minimum wage of £6.31 per hour for all workers over 21. Now the Council are over-riding this to £7.31 for Council employees only is that correct. Surely i'm missing something here?[/p][/quote]Iron Lady you are missing nothing. Puppy dog ED(Miliband) sometime ago invented the "living wage" which varied around the country as the minimum wage people needed to earn to bring home enough money to live on. The other parties jumped on the band wagon as did the unions. In Hampshire i think the living wage level is £7.45 but in Southampton it appears to be £7.31. All parties are now trying to brand employers who do not pay the "living wage" as evil. Have heard people say it is all the emploers fault without thinking things through. If however the worker on £6.31 per hour - minimum wage set by the government - did not have to pay tax and NI on his earnings then he would already earn and bring home the Living wage(in most parts of the country) and the attached cut in employers NI could be passed on in part at least as a pay increase. Every one is a winner. Which is why I think it is immoral of theGovernment to take tax out of the minimum wage. After all it is the government who is ensuring that these people do not bring home a living wage already. Raise the tax threshold would also drastically cut the benefits bill, put more money on the high street and create jobs which the overpaid benefit doler outers could be given. But then it suits the Government(all parties) to have the electorate as dependant as possible upon state handouts and state protection. tootle
  • Score: 0

5:17pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
southy wrote:
Charlie Bucket wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution.

Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.
Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer.
I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source

"Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed."
Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions.
Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round
I think I see the angle you're coming from.

But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal.

Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.
Employees do not do the hard work, though. They do *some* of the work. And they get paid whether the business is profitable or not. He who dares wins, and that applies to business as well. I'm not having a go at you, but I'm sick to death of people getting outraged at the thought of a businessman actually getting some return on the amount of effort they put in, and risk they undertake when building their business. If people really think it's that simple, you simply form a company and then hire a bunch of people to do all the hard work for you, then they're really simpletons for not doing it themselves. Or perhaps they choose not to make that effort and take that risk. Which is everybody's right, of course, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. We don't all live for our work.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution. Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.[/p][/quote]Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer. I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source "Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed." Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions. Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round[/p][/quote]I think I see the angle you're coming from. But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal. Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.[/p][/quote]Employees do not do the hard work, though. They do *some* of the work. And they get paid whether the business is profitable or not. He who dares wins, and that applies to business as well. I'm not having a go at you, but I'm sick to death of people getting outraged at the thought of a businessman actually getting some return on the amount of effort they put in, and risk they undertake when building their business. If people really think it's that simple, you simply form a company and then hire a bunch of people to do all the hard work for you, then they're really simpletons for not doing it themselves. Or perhaps they choose not to make that effort and take that risk. Which is everybody's right, of course, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. We don't all live for our work. Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 2

5:21pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

southy wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
southy wrote:
Charlie Bucket wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution.

Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.
Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer.
I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source

"Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed."
Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions.
Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round
I think I see the angle you're coming from.

But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal.

Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.
The Employer don't create jobs, its people needs that do that, an employer do very little but earns the most, it is very posible to create jobs in a co-op fashion
I agree that it's possible to create jobs co-operatively, and I also actually agree that people's needs create jobs. What I most certainly do not agree with is your continued insistence that employers don't actually do anything. Please get out of this ridiculous, outmoded 19th century mindset that equates work with manual labour. How many workers do you know that work 18 hour days, 7 days a week, earning literally nothing at all - and I do mean literally - living only on what money they already have saved up from previous endeavours? Plenty of people go through this building up a business.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution. Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.[/p][/quote]Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer. I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source "Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed." Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions. Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round[/p][/quote]I think I see the angle you're coming from. But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal. Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.[/p][/quote]The Employer don't create jobs, its people needs that do that, an employer do very little but earns the most, it is very posible to create jobs in a co-op fashion[/p][/quote]I agree that it's possible to create jobs co-operatively, and I also actually agree that people's needs create jobs. What I most certainly do not agree with is your continued insistence that employers don't actually do anything. Please get out of this ridiculous, outmoded 19th century mindset that equates work with manual labour. How many workers do you know that work 18 hour days, 7 days a week, earning literally nothing at all - and I do mean literally - living only on what money they already have saved up from previous endeavours? Plenty of people go through this building up a business. Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 2

5:21pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

southy wrote:
IronLady2010 wrote:
southy wrote:
Charlie Bucket wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution.

Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.
Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer.
I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source

"Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed."
Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions.
Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round
I think I see the angle you're coming from.

But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal.

Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.
The Employer don't create jobs, its people needs that do that, an employer do very little but earns the most, it is very posible to create jobs in a co-op fashion
I agree that it's possible to create jobs co-operatively, and I also actually agree that people's needs create jobs. What I most certainly do not agree with is your continued insistence that employers don't actually do anything. Please get out of this ridiculous, outmoded 19th century mindset that equates work with manual labour. How many workers do you know that work 18 hour days, 7 days a week, earning literally nothing at all - and I do mean literally - living only on what money they already have saved up from previous endeavours? Plenty of people go through this building up a business.
[quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You are completely and utterly wrong. Pensions are either contributory, which means the employee pays an amount from their salary to match what the employer has contributed, or non-contributory, which means the employer bears the entire contribution. Now, I know you're going to say "but they make wages lower to make it seem that way" but of course that's just semantic gymnastics. You might as well argue that the employees bought the factory with invisible deductions from wages. Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed.[/p][/quote]Totally right an emploer can not make money with out workers, its the workers that make the money not the employer. I don't matter which it is Private or state NI, the employer can not contribute unless the worker makes the money for the employer, Its all taken into account when seting up contracts, they could give the employee more wages and have no private pension, but they don't its deducted at source "Fact remains: the employee gets a pension to which their employer contributed." Fact remains that its the worker that earned the employer contributions. Its taken into account in costs to employ some one and not the other way round[/p][/quote]I think I see the angle you're coming from. But, without the employer, the workers wouldn't have a job. It's the employer who creates the business, creates a business plan and employs people to achieve the final goal. Yes, the employees do the hard work, but it's the employer that has overall control.[/p][/quote]The Employer don't create jobs, its people needs that do that, an employer do very little but earns the most, it is very posible to create jobs in a co-op fashion[/p][/quote]I agree that it's possible to create jobs co-operatively, and I also actually agree that people's needs create jobs. What I most certainly do not agree with is your continued insistence that employers don't actually do anything. Please get out of this ridiculous, outmoded 19th century mindset that equates work with manual labour. How many workers do you know that work 18 hour days, 7 days a week, earning literally nothing at all - and I do mean literally - living only on what money they already have saved up from previous endeavours? Plenty of people go through this building up a business. Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 1

5:26pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

richieroo wrote:
Charlie Bucket wrote:
richieroo wrote:
Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)
You ever hear the phrase "There but for the grace of god go I"? It means misfortune could easily beset any one of us, regardless of how much we think we're in control of our destiny. You got lucky, you found a well-paid job. For now. Don't go sneering at those less fortunate, because you, like most of us, are one unforeseen disaster away from total ruin, and all the "I did an apprenticeship lol" in the world won't mitigate that. Count your blessings and try having a bit of empathy. What are you going to do when they replace whatever trade it is you've got with a robot, and you find yourself useless to society? Will you be here sneering at yourself?
It's not down to luck at all, that I have a good job. It's more down to the fact that I studied hard & still happily train now to keep my skills current & viable in the workplace. As for being replaced by a robot... That's still a long way of for me, as I do the tasks that often they can't or need to be overridden as their logic doesn't always come to the right conclusion.
Nope, it's pretty much mostly luck and happenstance. Not to belittle your hard work at study, but it paid off mostly because you were in the right place at the right time. That goes just as much for me, by the way, this is not an attack on you. And make no mistake, this could all be taken away from you at any time, and it's out of control. You don't know what's around the corner. What if you get mugged on the way home from work one day, and end up with brain damage that means you can't work any more? I don't know what you do, exactly, but what if some medical condition came along and took away your ability to do your job? What if you move jobs, and a month after you do, the company folds, and you suddenly find yourself unable to find work for a long time? It can happen, don't kid yourself that your talent and hard work are enough to safeguard your livelihood.
[quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]richieroo[/bold] wrote: Here's an idea - You want a better paid job... Then you should've worked harder at school, although if you've ended up working in a low paid job for the council you obviously weren't that bright to begin with lol !. ;-)[/p][/quote]You ever hear the phrase "There but for the grace of god go I"? It means misfortune could easily beset any one of us, regardless of how much we think we're in control of our destiny. You got lucky, you found a well-paid job. For now. Don't go sneering at those less fortunate, because you, like most of us, are one unforeseen disaster away from total ruin, and all the "I did an apprenticeship lol" in the world won't mitigate that. Count your blessings and try having a bit of empathy. What are you going to do when they replace whatever trade it is you've got with a robot, and you find yourself useless to society? Will you be here sneering at yourself?[/p][/quote]It's not down to luck at all, that I have a good job. It's more down to the fact that I studied hard & still happily train now to keep my skills current & viable in the workplace. As for being replaced by a robot... That's still a long way of for me, as I do the tasks that often they can't or need to be overridden as their logic doesn't always come to the right conclusion.[/p][/quote]Nope, it's pretty much mostly luck and happenstance. Not to belittle your hard work at study, but it paid off mostly because you were in the right place at the right time. That goes just as much for me, by the way, this is not an attack on you. And make no mistake, this could all be taken away from you at any time, and it's out of control. You don't know what's around the corner. What if you get mugged on the way home from work one day, and end up with brain damage that means you can't work any more? I don't know what you do, exactly, but what if some medical condition came along and took away your ability to do your job? What if you move jobs, and a month after you do, the company folds, and you suddenly find yourself unable to find work for a long time? It can happen, don't kid yourself that your talent and hard work are enough to safeguard your livelihood. Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 2

5:27pm Sun 20 Jul 14

loosehead says...

What get's me is the reason there's a "Cost of Living Crisis" is because A Labour PM allowed an open gate policy.
Employers jumped on it many foreign companies under bid our own so we had building companies(small) going to the wall or they had to employ foreign workers or their own employees had to take a pay cut.
Many private sector workers were given the option of no pay rise & many had to take cuts to keep jobs.
Now surely Milliband must know this so how does he think the "Living Wage" is going to produce jobs & better conditions for the workers?
As many do know foreign workers will take British workers jobs as they'll take below the minimum wage or the companies will leave.
the present Government trying top rectify the problem has continued to raise the threshold of tax so giving more money to workers with out pricing them out of jobs.
Now we have Labour Party members posting on this article so can they tell us how this Living Wage increase will be funded?
What get's me is the reason there's a "Cost of Living Crisis" is because A Labour PM allowed an open gate policy. Employers jumped on it many foreign companies under bid our own so we had building companies(small) going to the wall or they had to employ foreign workers or their own employees had to take a pay cut. Many private sector workers were given the option of no pay rise & many had to take cuts to keep jobs. Now surely Milliband must know this so how does he think the "Living Wage" is going to produce jobs & better conditions for the workers? As many do know foreign workers will take British workers jobs as they'll take below the minimum wage or the companies will leave. the present Government trying top rectify the problem has continued to raise the threshold of tax so giving more money to workers with out pricing them out of jobs. Now we have Labour Party members posting on this article so can they tell us how this Living Wage increase will be funded? loosehead
  • Score: -1

5:30pm Sun 20 Jul 14

loosehead says...

Didn't Osbourne look at raising the minimum wage up to £7? but didn't bosses warn him this would result in job losses if done to quickly?
Didn't Osbourne look at raising the minimum wage up to £7? but didn't bosses warn him this would result in job losses if done to quickly? loosehead
  • Score: -1

5:32pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Charlie Bucket says...

The point, richieroo, is that you're completely and utterly wrong to think the only reason a person isn't earning a decent wage is because he didn't work hard enough at school.
The point, richieroo, is that you're completely and utterly wrong to think the only reason a person isn't earning a decent wage is because he didn't work hard enough at school. Charlie Bucket
  • Score: 1

6:01pm Sun 20 Jul 14

IronLady2010 says...

Charlie Bucket wrote:
The point, richieroo, is that you're completely and utterly wrong to think the only reason a person isn't earning a decent wage is because he didn't work hard enough at school.
You are quite right! Just look at the Refuse Collectors. Fantastic wage for walking around moving bins, no qualifications required.
[quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: The point, richieroo, is that you're completely and utterly wrong to think the only reason a person isn't earning a decent wage is because he didn't work hard enough at school.[/p][/quote]You are quite right! Just look at the Refuse Collectors. Fantastic wage for walking around moving bins, no qualifications required. IronLady2010
  • Score: -1

7:51pm Sun 20 Jul 14

thinklikealocal says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
southy wrote:
thinklikealocal wrote:
andysaints007 wrote:
I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month!
I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them).
Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know!
Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement
You don't need to explain how pensions work to me, I have been selling them for long enough! I didn't say they were free! My point was althought the employee 'contributes' to their scheme - you try seeing how much someone in the private sector has to pay to get the equivelant! If you don't understand disability benefits then you better google it !
I know what Disability Benefits are. I'm just not sure why you think Council staff have access to them as part of their contract of employment? The last I heard they were paid to any qualifying citizen by the DWP. Google it yourself.

Why don't you try seeing how much more earning potential private sector employees have. But then if you sell pensions you should know that. You probably also earn more than many of the professionals working at the Council whilst having a lot less responsibility. The extent of your responsibility is probably earning the most you can for yourself in commission.
If andysaints does indeed sell pensions, you'll find he has a huge responsibility.

Have you seen the paperwork involved, he would have to cover his backside left right and centre.

The days of earning as much commission as possible is almost over, yes there are still flaws in the system.

I dabbled in Financial advice and chose to get out as it's bloomin hard work.
Huge responsibility? Don't make me laugh. You are talking about paperwork! What about making a difference to people's lives! Being responsible for front lines workers who could be seriously injured or assaulted on the job. I'm sorry, I think you are a genuine poster on here with some good things to say, but, when it comes to this subject you lack knowledge and are hampered in your thinking by being taken in by the concept that all Council workers are overpaid lazy idiots. Yes there are some, but just as many as I witnessed in the private sector. I am proud to work amongst so many committed and talented people. I never felt that in the private sector and that us the honest truth.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]southy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]thinklikealocal[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]andysaints007[/bold] wrote: I wonder what the whole 'package' works out at per hour for a council worker. Guaranteed pension, death benefits, dependants benefits, disabilty benefits etc. Try adding all that to a personal pension for non council workers and see how much it costs per month![/p][/quote]I'm not sure what you mean about Disability Benefits? But everything else you mention is under one heading - pension. I think you'll find that most pensions include an element of 'death benefits' if the person dies before collecting the pension, likewise, where a person is already collecting their pension a smaller percentage of the pension may be paid to a spouse upon the death of the pensioner. I know my husband's defined contribution pension works like this (entirely paid for by his employer), as does his private pension from a previous private sector employer (entirely paid for by them). Those Council workers currently earning less than a 'living wage', i.e. Less than they need to live on must also make compulsory contributions to the pension scheme if they want to be in it. It's not completely free you know![/p][/quote]Pensions are not paid by the employer, it is pais by the employee its deducted from the wage full payment agreement[/p][/quote]You don't need to explain how pensions work to me, I have been selling them for long enough! I didn't say they were free! My point was althought the employee 'contributes' to their scheme - you try seeing how much someone in the private sector has to pay to get the equivelant! If you don't understand disability benefits then you better google it ![/p][/quote]I know what Disability Benefits are. I'm just not sure why you think Council staff have access to them as part of their contract of employment? The last I heard they were paid to any qualifying citizen by the DWP. Google it yourself. Why don't you try seeing how much more earning potential private sector employees have. But then if you sell pensions you should know that. You probably also earn more than many of the professionals working at the Council whilst having a lot less responsibility. The extent of your responsibility is probably earning the most you can for yourself in commission.[/p][/quote]If andysaints does indeed sell pensions, you'll find he has a huge responsibility. Have you seen the paperwork involved, he would have to cover his backside left right and centre. The days of earning as much commission as possible is almost over, yes there are still flaws in the system. I dabbled in Financial advice and chose to get out as it's bloomin hard work.[/p][/quote]Huge responsibility? Don't make me laugh. You are talking about paperwork! What about making a difference to people's lives! Being responsible for front lines workers who could be seriously injured or assaulted on the job. I'm sorry, I think you are a genuine poster on here with some good things to say, but, when it comes to this subject you lack knowledge and are hampered in your thinking by being taken in by the concept that all Council workers are overpaid lazy idiots. Yes there are some, but just as many as I witnessed in the private sector. I am proud to work amongst so many committed and talented people. I never felt that in the private sector and that us the honest truth. thinklikealocal
  • Score: -1

10:39pm Sun 20 Jul 14

Linesman says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
Charlie Bucket wrote:
The point, richieroo, is that you're completely and utterly wrong to think the only reason a person isn't earning a decent wage is because he didn't work hard enough at school.
You are quite right! Just look at the Refuse Collectors. Fantastic wage for walking around moving bins, no qualifications required.
Personally, I think that they are worth every penny.

It is not a job that I would like in this extremely hot weather, moving people's stinking rubbish, or in the bitter cold of winter.

Rain or shine. hot or cold, they are there for us, and so many speak of them in contemptuous terms.

If you think it is such a well paid job, is it one that you would be willing to do?

You may claim that you would, but my betting is that, in truth, you would not, and neither would you want to be married to one, who comes in smelling of other people's rubbish.

I have the greatest respect for them, and they are first on my Christmas Box list, as I appreciate he service they perform.

No doubt you keep your money in your purse, and buy another couple of tickets in the Tory Party Christmas Raffle.
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: The point, richieroo, is that you're completely and utterly wrong to think the only reason a person isn't earning a decent wage is because he didn't work hard enough at school.[/p][/quote]You are quite right! Just look at the Refuse Collectors. Fantastic wage for walking around moving bins, no qualifications required.[/p][/quote]Personally, I think that they are worth every penny. It is not a job that I would like in this extremely hot weather, moving people's stinking rubbish, or in the bitter cold of winter. Rain or shine. hot or cold, they are there for us, and so many speak of them in contemptuous terms. If you think it is such a well paid job, is it one that you would be willing to do? You may claim that you would, but my betting is that, in truth, you would not, and neither would you want to be married to one, who comes in smelling of other people's rubbish. I have the greatest respect for them, and they are first on my Christmas Box list, as I appreciate he service they perform. No doubt you keep your money in your purse, and buy another couple of tickets in the Tory Party Christmas Raffle. Linesman
  • Score: 1

9:08am Mon 21 Jul 14

Lone Ranger. says...

IronLady2010 wrote:
Charlie Bucket wrote:
The point, richieroo, is that you're completely and utterly wrong to think the only reason a person isn't earning a decent wage is because he didn't work hard enough at school.
You are quite right! Just look at the Refuse Collectors. Fantastic wage for walking around moving bins, no qualifications required.
Goodness me ..... a swing voter ..... floating voter ...... Who are you trying to convince as you have the hallmark of a through and through Tory .
[quote][p][bold]IronLady2010[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Charlie Bucket[/bold] wrote: The point, richieroo, is that you're completely and utterly wrong to think the only reason a person isn't earning a decent wage is because he didn't work hard enough at school.[/p][/quote]You are quite right! Just look at the Refuse Collectors. Fantastic wage for walking around moving bins, no qualifications required.[/p][/quote]Goodness me ..... a swing voter ..... floating voter ...... Who are you trying to convince as you have the hallmark of a through and through Tory . Lone Ranger.
  • Score: 0

2:24pm Mon 21 Jul 14

loosehead says...

I wonder how short a memory the Left wingers have?
I remember when companies had factories in both the North & South both doing exactly the same work yet the Southerners got paid more than the Northerners .
I also remember the Unions fighting to stop this practice which with the exception of London they managed to do.
Noe we Have A LABOUR prospective PM advocating to take us back there with the "Living Wage"
Can you see a boss in Liverpool only paying £6.50 whilst in Southampton he'd have to pay £7.50?
this could be a scenario where companies move from the South to the North because the wages would be so much lower up there or is that Millibands idea to reward the North?
the Living wage is totally opposite what the unions fought for so why are they going with it?
So a Nurse,Postman is worth less in Liverpool than they are in Southampton?
This is why the Living Wage is such a poor thought out idea also would supermarkets have to pay the minimum wage? how much would costs in the shops go up?
I wonder how short a memory the Left wingers have? I remember when companies had factories in both the North & South both doing exactly the same work yet the Southerners got paid more than the Northerners . I also remember the Unions fighting to stop this practice which with the exception of London they managed to do. Noe we Have A LABOUR prospective PM advocating to take us back there with the "Living Wage" Can you see a boss in Liverpool only paying £6.50 whilst in Southampton he'd have to pay £7.50? this could be a scenario where companies move from the South to the North because the wages would be so much lower up there or is that Millibands idea to reward the North? the Living wage is totally opposite what the unions fought for so why are they going with it? So a Nurse,Postman is worth less in Liverpool than they are in Southampton? This is why the Living Wage is such a poor thought out idea also would supermarkets have to pay the minimum wage? how much would costs in the shops go up? loosehead
  • Score: 0

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