Liverpool's cruise bid is an 'abuse of state aid' (From Daily Echo)
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Liverpool's bid to capture Southampton's cruise liner trade is slammed
4:45pm Tuesday 22nd September 2009 in News
Liverpool's cruise bid is an 'abuse of state aid'
CIVIC chiefs in Southampton have slammed a bid by Liverpool to seize a chunk of the UK cruise industry as an “abuse of state aid.”
They have joined port bosses in objecting to plans to allow luxury liners that currently dock at Southampton to use Liverpool’s Cruise Liner Terminal as a base to start and end voyages.
A publicly funded £20m cruise terminal at the city’s historic Pier Head – once a gateway for millions of transatlantic passengers – has already given Liverpool a landing stage for calling megaliners.
Liverpool City Council now wants it to become a full “turnaround” terminal with baggage handling, customs and immigration although needs Department of Transport (DfT) approval as £9m of European Union funding was used to build it.
But there are fears cruise liners could be relocated from Southampton, which has 70 per cent of the UK cruise market.
Councillor Royston Smith, Tory Cabinet member of economic development, right, said Liverpool’s proposal was tantamount to an “abuse of state aid.”
He said Southampton’s recession defying cruise industry, which was vital to the local economy, bringing £1.2m per cruise ship visit, could be put at risk.
Cllr Smith said: “This is a private port competing with a public subsidy to do something similar. That simply isn’t fair.
“It’s not morally right that one city had been given a public subsidy to compete with another city.”
Associated British Ports, which spent £19m on a new Ocean Terminal in Southampton, claims the move would “distort” competition.
Southampton’s port director Doug Morrsion called for a “level playing field”.
He told the Echo: “We have no issue about competition.
In fact, it is healthy and that’s what this industry thrives on. But it should be a level playing field and no one gave us any money towards the £41m we have invested in Southampton in the past five years.
“We feel that if the (Liverpool) port authority, Peel – a billion pound industrial business, repaid the £20m grant then we could not object.
“The issue is one of taxpayers money being used. This city will lose out because of this taxpayer investment.”
The row over upgrading the status of the Liverpool terminal has sparked angry public reaction in Liverpool and Southampton.
Lib Dem run Liverpool council last night defended its position.
In a statement Councillor Gary Millar, Liverpool council’s tourism leader, said: “We believe that the creation of a full turnaround facility at Liverpool will benefit the cruise liner industry in the UK, as the city is uniquely positioned to attract business from outside of Europe.
“The application to the DfT has been made in response to calls from the industry and passengers and the city is keen to build on the success of the facility so far.”
He was unavailable to comment on Southampton’s objections.
Around 300 ships and one million passengers used Southampton last year while only 55 ships have visited Liverpool in the past two years, including 26 Royal Navy vessels.
A DfT spokesperson said it had been inviting comments from ports around the UK, who also offer cruise facilities, as part of an “informal consultation”.
The spokesman said new transport minister Paul Clark, who earlier this year confirmed plans for a two-stage hike in the tax on ships calling at UK ports, will make a decision “soon”.
What does Liverpool say about Southampton’s objections?
One website post read: “We should raise an army amongst the peasants, march on Southampton and sack it! In the meantime we should refer to Southampton as ‘Sourhamtin’ in order to add to the foment.”
Another suggestion read: “The answer is simple, pay the money back to the DfT. They won’t do us any favours.
“Southampton gets 300 liners and we get 16, if we attract only a few more then the cruise liner terminal will surely make a profit and the money will have been well invested, mind you that would take foresight.”
Another agreed: “I think it would be reasonable to pay back the grant money then it’s a level playing field and no one can complain.”
One city newspaper columnist championing the move boasted Liverpool had a world famous backdrop at Pier Head to welcome cruise passengers while Southampton was “fundamentally a deep-water quay on a Hampshire mudflat.”
Comments(33)
MrGMan
says...
5:38pm Tue 22 Sep 09
gorf
says...
5:47pm Tue 22 Sep 09
True...just look at the picture above and then look at southampton's sky line....oh another reason to moan at the council for not allowing sky scrapers in the city
mac1989
says...
5:48pm Tue 22 Sep 09
allsaintsnocurves
says...
5:52pm Tue 22 Sep 09
This grant was not awarded to Liverpool on the basis that they had a nicer backdrop for cruise ships!! Besides Southampton is investing in that part of town and will have a lot more going for it including a supercasino. It is our tax payers money and it should be used where it is really needed. This is not it! This is as bad as a bankmanager pocketing a massive bonus right now!
soton1980
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6:25pm Tue 22 Sep 09
Jparcoeur
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6:29pm Tue 22 Sep 09
Condor Man
says...
7:12pm Tue 22 Sep 09
Family Man
says...
7:59pm Tue 22 Sep 09
Perhaps it would have been better had Southampton upped it's game some time ago, like before Ocean Village was wrecked and all the ocean racers went to Portsmouth... And it wasn't that long ago that there was a ferry to France...oh! and banana trade...oh, and before Southampton again cried foul about charges fearing losing the container traffic to Felixstowe.
Competition, that's what its all about...
echoidiot
says...
8:02pm Tue 22 Sep 09
SW/SORT-WELL. LOL
southy
says...
9:08pm Tue 22 Sep 09
Sulaiman Al Fahim wrote:what you and a lot of other people for get, is southampton docks have had money in the pass, but liverpool never moaned about it, yes it was longer than 5 years ago, but money at the time, and even doug knows this, if he can remember the chat we was having number a years ago, while we was waiting for a ship to come in, this killed off a load of other docks, and now the boot on the other foot, listen to all the moaning going on, maybe well more than likey, if the southampton dockers supported the rest of uk docker when they went out on strike, there might be some compassion from liverpool, but thats all if's and buts, but liverpool will now or might make it a more off a level playing field, i not going to jump to conclusions what this might mean what will happen, its still to early to tell.
If Liverpool can do this, will Southampton's port get a similarly sizeable grant to set up facilities to take business from Merseyside?
peachy1
says...
9:25pm Tue 22 Sep 09
Southampton Water ( By the way It's not a river )
Is more expensive to pilot and dock the biggest benefit for the cruise
passengers is the fact that it is closer to London
I reckon Southampton will be sharing it's dominance with Liverpool you may find that The cruise starts in Southampton and finishes in Liverpool and then vice versa for the next cruise either way my choice ois Liverpool the QE2 looked totally at home there and you could walk up and down teh Quay alongside her
you get off the ship and you are 10 minutes walk to the town centre
It's a great city and you get a great welcome Southampton you don't FACT
10 Minute Man
says...
9:30pm Tue 22 Sep 09
If you let Southampton's cruise industry be drawn away to other cities, we will never vote for you or your party again.
joenice
says...
10:06pm Tue 22 Sep 09
Been there and have to say I did not, you see being from the south most dont like us! Southampton is full of some great people FACT Liverpool is full of.....
MrGMan
says...
10:17pm Tue 22 Sep 09
With respect that totally misses what the cruise industry is about.
Nothing to say
says...
10:50pm Tue 22 Sep 09
southy
says...
11:09pm Tue 22 Sep 09
Sulaiman Al Fahim
says...
8:31am Wed 23 Sep 09
southy wrote:No, it isn't.
peachy1, Southampton waters is a name of small stretch of the river test,(the lower tidal estruary of the river test) just like ealing creek and bartley waters is a small stretch of the river rum.
Southampton Water is a ria. It is an estuary. It is what the Rivers Itchen and Test run into.
It is not part of either river.
Southampton Water starts at The Solent and ends near the upper part of the Western Docks.
MaxxieO
says...
9:02am Wed 23 Sep 09
Researcher680
says...
9:32am Wed 23 Sep 09
Let us be a little generous and allow a few ships more to sail from Liverpool. They already have a dock based passenger terminal and are simply asking to get back what they once had on the landing stage.
Lone Ranger
says...
9:50am Wed 23 Sep 09
MaxxieO wrote:You are quite right.
Much as I hate to say it, this seems like a case of sour grapes. At the end of the day, Liverpool has far more to offer tourists than Southampton. The Pier Head is right in the centre of the city, with nice buildings like the Liver Building and the Albert Dock along the waterfront, along with shops, bars, museums and public space. Southampton's cruise terminal is surrounded by an unattractive vista of oceans of unwanted new cars, industrial sheds and the odd yuppie flat...no contest really. There's sod all down that end of town and if the Southampton council moan about other places getting funding then it's about time they bucked their ideas up and provided a waterfront that could give Liverpool a run for its money.
.
Our waterfront has been neglected for too many years and is only attractive if you have come in on a container ship not a cruise liner.
We are portrayed visually from the aproach as industrialised
southy
says...
10:20am Wed 23 Sep 09
Sulaiman Al Fahim wrote:the river itchen flows into the test, the test is the major river, has the hamble and meon, the major river is all ways the one that flows into the sea, and southampton water is not a name body of a sea, where has the solent is, the name southampton water is just a small named part of the test and it ends at dock head, not western docks. its just the charts that over run the name pass the dock head, so it did not go across the name solent, learn how to read charts. also read the seamans bible, alimac in there it tells you that southampton waters is name part of the river test.
southy wrote:No, it isn't.
peachy1, Southampton waters is a name of small stretch of the river test,(the lower tidal estruary of the river test) just like ealing creek and bartley waters is a small stretch of the river rum.
Southampton Water is a ria. It is an estuary. It is what the Rivers Itchen and Test run into.
It is not part of either river.
Southampton Water starts at The Solent and ends near the upper part of the Western Docks.
Sulaiman Al Fahim
says...
11:51am Wed 23 Sep 09
Ben Doone
says...
1:41pm Wed 23 Sep 09
Actually Southy is using this forum to display his wide ranging nautical knowledge as there is a job going as the Head of Education at the Warsash School of Navigation.
This country needs more hands on, educated people like Southy
Researcher680
says...
1:55pm Wed 23 Sep 09
southy
says...
2:28pm Wed 23 Sep 09
Ben Doone wrote:shhhhh ben i dont want to many people knowing about that job. lol
SAT
Actually Southy is using this forum to display his wide ranging nautical knowledge as there is a job going as the Head of Education at the Warsash School of Navigation.
This country needs more hands on, educated people like Southy
King Mush
says...
3:27pm Wed 23 Sep 09
Fair points made when comparing us to Liverpool as their riverside improvements are quite exceptional.
We had a beautiful Ocean Terminal that should have been retained and modernised. The Liver Building and surrounding architecture is impressive plus some good shopping and the Beatles link is a bonus for some.
Whilst Liverpool city centre has some nice places you are only a mile from the surrounding sink estates and Giro Cities.
Not forgetting the antics of the Trotsky led dockers who helped decimate the port plus Derek Hatton and co who dragged the city down. I guess Southy will respond......
MaxxieO
says...
3:32pm Wed 23 Sep 09
southy
says...
3:53pm Wed 23 Sep 09
SEAFARER
says...
4:58pm Wed 23 Sep 09
southy wrote:how very true,the so called antics of the militant of us in liverpool was to redress the situation EVERY worker found themselves under thatcher.It wasnt about the people of liverpool,it was a clear message to the thatcherite government and its banker backers,that we had had enough,and the policies we made were in my belief was a message to thatcher you want civil war? then go ahead the country is ready. She backed down and the the labour party Kinnock himself the traitor that he was breathed a sigh of relief.bELIVE ME ,WE CAME CLOSE TO IT,IF OTHER COUNCILS HAD FOLLOWED SUIT .
""Not forgetting the antics of the Trotsky led dockers who helped decimate the port plus Derek Hatton and co who dragged the city down"" you do tend to forget things, what hatton done had the full backing of the people of liverpool, and they still agree with what he done, he did't drag the city down he defied m.thatcher policy, with the full backing of the local people, like he carried on building council houses. and what he was doing proving to other councils and people of the uk, that those policys could not be enforce, whitch worried thatcher that much that they had to reduce theres self to slagging down propaganda, and keep calling the docker trotsky dont help thats only propaganda to, those dockers where fighting for the jobs. .
MaxxieO
says...
9:19am Thu 24 Sep 09
Were the dockers rebellious Trotskyisk loonies? No, they were just ordinary workers fighting to keep their jobs and good on 'em for putting themselves on the line and standing up for their rights cos Thatcher just wanted to privatise everything so her Tory fat-cat mates in the world of banking and finance could hive off the cream and make more money that they don't need.
Ordinary people were fighting for their livelihoods and when you can't afford to pay the rent or the lecky, it's a bit much to see corporate capitalists buying private jets and taking their money to offshore tax havens.
Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now. This thread has gone way off-topic!
mattysd99
says...
7:18pm Thu 24 Sep 09
Researcher680
says...
1:44pm Sat 26 Sep 09
mac1989 wrote:Not entirely fair. Southampton's crime stats are above the national average. Firsr nunmber Southampton , second English
Dam who would want to start/end there holiday in liverpool it's a nasty place to go, Soon as the ship arrives it would be stripped to it's shell buy the lovely people of liverpool... lol
SOUTHAMPTON COUNCIL ENGLISH AVERAGE
Population 231,000 -
Households 100,000 -
Violence against the person 35.6 15.0
Sexual offences 2.1 0.9
Robbery offences 1.8 1.0
Burglary dwelling offences 4.0 4.3
Theft of a motor vehicle offences 3.1 2.3
Theft from a vehicle offences 10.7 6.3
Sulaiman Al Fahim says...
5:00pm Tue 22 Sep 09