Transport giant First Group to cut or change 44 routes across Hampshire (From Daily Echo)

Bah, buses are nothing but a pain, years ago I loved catching the bus nice friendly drivers always a helping hand, on 2 occassions on losing my return tickets from School, he didnt mind then again it was 25p back in those days for child fares from Lordshill way to Warren Avenue... now a days most are rude and unhelpful and the cost of a Monthly rider is near to £50 per person which for myself and my partner is £100, I spend around £60/£70 a month on Petrol cheaper and I can get from A-B in a fraction of the time and to where I need to go...

Though most of my ranting has nothing to do with the service cut backs I can say that profits are down due to the fact transport is *EXPENSIVE as mentioned above | *LONG TRIPS which by car is 20/30minutes.

Some Cities and Companies run some morning Express services going to limited stops to help get people from A-B quicker and cheaper.

Prehaps a service calling at Lordshill Center - Gen.Hospital - Shirley Pricent - St Marks School Bus Lane - Railway Station - Civic Center & City Center, just calling at those stops and none of the inbetween stops which saving fuel and quicker trips for people.

OR

Bring back conductors so the bus driver no longer has to wait at a bus stop punching in numbers and what not.

'center' should be written 'centre' not 'center' you have Americanised the word.
The worst culprits are the 'Plumb Center' people, who even paint their vans and make up their shop fronts with 'Plumb Center' not 'Plumb Centre'.
Let's not dumb down to the Yanks.

First Bus drivers are a menace, the less there are of them the better. Make the roads a lot safer for a start, was nearly knocked of my bike by one as they didnt bother checking their mirrors.

Were you that bike rider i saw got hit by first bus, because you thought it a great idea to ride along the inside of the bus while he was in traffic. Yea i bet that was you

Southampton is the least environmentally friendly city. The bus drivers are unfriendly. One has to wait for hours for a bus sometimes. People had to wait in Londeon Road an hour for the number 1 to Winchester. People had to wait an hour for the number 2 to Southampton. They asked other drivers what was happening nothing but sheer rudeness was encountered. One driver said I only drive the E buses. More aircraft fly over Portswood than buses.

Yet most cars have the driver only - at least Eastleigh tries to encourage people to share cars. Car drivers are very selfish and rude. I was knocked down at the end of Westwood Road by a driver reversing yet he was signalling right.

Southampton cares nothing for pedestrians or bus passengers.. I wonder how many councillors use the buses? If we reduced the number of councillors - we could fund the bus service. Every other city has a decent bus service on every day of the year. The train station was closed, the buses should have made more effort to help the residents. Yet citylink was running which is not really for the residents - ridiculous. Who funds the citylink? There should be a box for charity so all could donate to the nominated charity.

Dusty wrote:
Were you that bike rider i saw got hit by first bus, because you thought it a great idea to ride along the inside of the bus while he was in traffic. Yea i bet that was you

well the fact that I wrote "nearly" might give you a clue.

bravebeth wrote:
Southampton is the least environmentally friendly city. The bus drivers are unfriendly. One has to wait for hours for a bus sometimes. People had to wait in Londeon Road an hour for the number 1 to Winchester. People had to wait an hour for the number 2 to Southampton. They asked other drivers what was happening nothing but sheer rudeness was encountered. One driver said I only drive the E buses. More aircraft fly over Portswood than buses. Yet most cars have the driver only - at least Eastleigh tries to encourage people to share cars. Car drivers are very selfish and rude. I was knocked down at the end of Westwood Road by a driver reversing yet he was signalling right. Southampton cares nothing for pedestrians or bus passengers.. I wonder how many councillors use the buses? If we reduced the number of councillors - we could fund the bus service. Every other city has a decent bus service on every day of the year. The train station was closed, the buses should have made more effort to help the residents. Yet citylink was running which is not really for the residents - ridiculous. Who funds the citylink? There should be a box for charity so all could donate to the nominated charity.

"Southampton cares nothing for pedestrians or bus passengers"

I agree with you, but it is all over the country people have this attitude. It's a me, myself and I mentality

First bus do provide an appalingly unreliable service a lot of the time and their customer service is rubbish - I sent them several complaints and had no reply until I complained to the council who managed to elicit a reply.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what passengers think - most of them have no real option other than to use the bus so First can go on providing a rubbish service and ignoring customers. It's not like the railways where the government can fine train companies or take away their licence if they do not match expectations.

And yes, I agree about the drivers, some of them are very grumpy but not all of them.

However, the blame for these First services being axed does not lay solely with First, the council does have a part to play too; if the services were that important then the council should subsidise them to keep them running but the bus companies should not make large profits out of subsidised routes.

I still think it was better when the council ran the buses themselves - cutting out the middleman and the fat-cat shareholders of private bus operators meant reduced costs to the taxpayer and direct control of the buses. Still, somebody thought it would be a good idea to privatise them.

"More aircraft fly over Portswood than buses" says bravebeth - not sure whether you are comparing the number of aircraft that fly over Portswood with the number of buses that fly over Portswood (not a lot, would be my guess) or the number of aircraft that fly over Portswood with the number of aircraft that fly over buses. Please clarify.

I live 4 miles outside of town and can run to the city centre quicker than a bus takes to get there. The only problem is running back with all the shopping.

As it goes, I actually prefer to drive these days. Why should I pay to sit on the worlds slowest transport with the worlds rudest and in many cases most smelly people. It's not even good value for money.

First Group made over £130 million pounds from their uk bus services last year and paid record shareholder dividends. This year they are cutting services all over the uk and trying to implement a pay freeze for its drivers resulting in strikes in parts of the uk. These are public services being ruined by private company greed. Its easy to see why the drivers are grumpy. This company dont care about its workers or its customers They worship the pound note. Sadly First, Stagecoach, Go ahead and Arriva all behave the same. The system needs changing, huge profits from public services is just plain wrong.

CMSaint wrote:
First Group made over £130 million pounds from their uk bus services last year and paid record shareholder dividends. This year they are cutting services all over the uk and trying to implement a pay freeze for its drivers resulting in strikes in parts of the uk. These are public services being ruined by private company greed. Its easy to see why the drivers are grumpy. This company dont care about its workers or its customers They worship the pound note. Sadly First, Stagecoach, Go ahead and Arriva all behave the same. The system needs changing, huge profits from public services is just plain wrong.

Corporate greed is such a shame and unfortunately it's becoming more commonplace.

I think a lot of companies rely on the fact that Joe Public thinks getting a new job is very hard at the moment. This is possibly why First have decided to implement pay freeze despite huge profits.

I feel it is important to post a comment in relation to this story, which is slightly misleading. It is true that a number of service changes are being made in January and February, but these affect far fewer services than the Echo implies. Rather than affecting 44 services, the changes affect around 24 services, with a number of them designed to improve the punctuality and reliability of buses in the area. Some services are being improved / extended, while others – where demand has fallen due to the recession – will see the frequency of buses reduce slightly. Some of the changes relate to tendered bus services, ie services First operates on behalf of the Council – in these cases, the decision to alter services has been made by the local authority.

I urge anyone wanting complete and accurate information about the forthcoming service changes to visit the First Hampshire and Dorset website (first group . com / Hampshire). Alternatively you may wish to check out the Facebook page (search First Hampshire and Dorset).

With kind regards

Karen

MaxxieO wrote:
First bus do provide an appalingly unreliable service a lot of the time and their customer service is rubbish - I sent them several complaints and had no reply until I complained to the council who managed to elicit a reply. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what passengers think - most of them have no real option other than to use the bus so First can go on providing a rubbish service and ignoring customers. It's not like the railways where the government can fine train companies or take away their licence if they do not match expectations. And yes, I agree about the drivers, some of them are very grumpy but not all of them. However, the blame for these First services being axed does not lay solely with First, the council does have a part to play too; if the services were that important then the council should subsidise them to keep them running but the bus companies should not make large profits out of subsidised routes. I still think it was better when the council ran the buses themselves - cutting out the middleman and the fat-cat shareholders of private bus operators meant reduced costs to the taxpayer and direct control of the buses. Still, somebody thought it would be a good idea to privatise them.

The council provides bus lanes giving priority over the majority of vehicles and countless traffic lights are phased also giving priority to the buses. I think thats enough subsidy.

if what Karen says is correct its another example of the Echo gettiing things wrong AGAIN !!
for example Colchester Utd ground under "2 feet of snow" according to Echo but only 3/4 inches according to the club.
When is this newpaper going to start getting its facts right?
oh and does the missing canoist live in Millbrook Rd or in a houseboat cos according to the Echo he lives in/on both!!

Yet again he Echo mislead the public.
I am a bus driver and not 1 of the miserable ones .Nor unfriendly .Love the job have a good re poor with the passengers .If i am late i always apologize but cannot help traffic chaos around the town..We get break downs like other transport .As for slating First take a break and see what the council have to say.. I love my miserable passengers too!!

In December 2006 the Traffic Commissioner fined First Hampshire & Dorset £35,000 for failing to run one in five buses in Portsmouth on time. The operator received an earlier formal warning over timekeeping in June 2005.
This after complaints from passengers

For those of you defending this so called bus service, you obviously don't live in sholing (Butts Road to be exact) where the bus service is at it's worst! If first are cutting early morning services to the General Hospital, then more cars will be queuing to get into another pain in the **********, the inadequate car park at the hospital! Thanks a bunch FIRST!

Hey Echo the pdf above is for Fareham not Southampton yet ANOTHER mistake in this already flawed article!.

Karen Baxter (above) is correct that some (relatively small proportion) of the changes are due to routine re-tendering of subsidised services by local authorities.

However this distracts from the main point that many of the cuts are being implemented solely by First themselves, on routes that they operate commercially without any council involvement.

The following three First Group policies, currently being implemented across all its UK bus operations, speak volumes about the nature of the business:
1) To cut frequencies and/or early morning/evening journeys, on most routes except those where they face competition
2) To freeze all staff pay
3) To increase shareholder dividends by 10% annually, this year and for the forseeable future.

The recession is of course being used as an 'excuse' for numbers 1) and 2), but it is worth pointing out that other large bus companies, notably Stagecoach, have not felt the need to take this drastic action in the areas that they operate, and have generally continued running their businesses in a positive manner by maintaining services, and investing in new vehicles and marketing to increase passenger numbers, rather than profiteering from a monopoly position as First seems to prefer to do.

James May For PM wrote:
if what Karen says is correct its another example of the Echo gettiing things wrong AGAIN !! for example Colchester Utd ground under "2 feet of snow" according to Echo but only 3/4 inches according to the club. When is this newpaper going to start getting its facts right? oh and does the missing canoist live in Millbrook Rd or in a houseboat cos according to the Echo he lives in/on both!!

Do you morons not read things properly? It's 24 routes in Southampton and 20 in Fareham and Gosport.

As for the Colchester thing, the pitch was under 2 foot of enow 10 days ago - when the Echo printed the story.

I wish people would read things before jumping to rash, ill-informed opinions - especially when they base it on what some spin doctor tells them.

Karen Baxter, PR Manager, First UK Bus wrote:
I feel it is important to post a comment in relation to this story, which is slightly misleading. It is true that a number of service changes are being made in January and February, but these affect far fewer services than the Echo implies. Rather than affecting 44 services, the changes affect around 24 services, with a number of them designed to improve the punctuality and reliability of buses in the area. Some services are being improved / extended, while others – where demand has fallen due to the recession – will see the frequency of buses reduce slightly. Some of the changes relate to tendered bus services, ie services First operates on behalf of the Council – in these cases, the decision to alter services has been made by the local authority. I urge anyone wanting complete and accurate information about the forthcoming service changes to visit the First Hampshire and Dorset website (first group . com / Hampshire). Alternatively you may wish to check out the Facebook page (search First Hampshire and Dorset). With kind regards Karen

Is it not 24 in Southampton, plus another 20 in Fareham in Gosport, as the article says?

Firstbus have shown that they have very little consideration for their most important customers. The fare paying public. They have cut buses in the area where I live, which is Weston, Southampton. They cut out the Service 6, which was the Weston link to Bitterne and the General Hospital. Then they split the Service 17 into 2 routes pleading timing improvements. What a load of rubbish. The timings of the Service 1 are worse than before. All this was for, was so that Firstbus could make more money. As far as I am concerned they have improved their services worse for their passengers.

Also, Daily Echo, how come you have only shown the Fareham/Gosport changes and not the ones for Southampton or the other area's of Hampshire that First cover??

Hi, to respond to the last couple of posts, the total number of changes being made is around 26 (apologises I missed a couple when I counted the first time round). It's easy to get confused, but I suspect that the Echo has counted all the minor variations of the same services (ie 8/8A/8E) as separate services - whereas they are in fact one service. As before, anyone wanting the most up to date, factually correct information, is advised to log onto the First Website (they'll be a news story on there from tomorrow detailing exactly what is changing and when). With kind regards, Karen

Glyn Strugnell wrote:
Firstbus have shown that they have very little consideration for their most important customers. The fare paying public. They have cut buses in the area where I live, which is Weston, Southampton. They cut out the Service 6, which was the Weston link to Bitterne and the General Hospital. Then they split the Service 17 into 2 routes pleading timing improvements. What a load of rubbish. The timings of the Service 1 are worse than before. All this was for, was so that Firstbus could make more money. As far as I am concerned they have improved their services worse for their passengers. Also, Daily Echo, how come you have only shown the Fareham/Gosport changes and not the ones for Southampton or the other area's of Hampshire that First cover??

I think it a bit odd Firstbus are trying to tell us they're only changing half the number of bus services - 8A is different to 8E otherwise they would both have the same name! We're not stupid!

As for the Echo, I guess it's because they don't sell the paper in the other parts of Hants. that have Firstbus. Wouldn't hurt to put all the details up though, would it?

D.a.v.e wrote:

MaxxieO wrote: First bus do provide an appalingly unreliable service a lot of the time and their customer service is rubbish - I sent them several complaints and had no reply until I complained to the council who managed to elicit a reply. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what passengers think - most of them have no real option other than to use the bus so First can go on providing a rubbish service and ignoring customers. It's not like the railways where the government can fine train companies or take away their licence if they do not match expectations. And yes, I agree about the drivers, some of them are very grumpy but not all of them. However, the blame for these First services being axed does not lay solely with First, the council does have a part to play too; if the services were that important then the council should subsidise them to keep them running but the bus companies should not make large profits out of subsidised routes. I still think it was better when the council ran the buses themselves - cutting out the middleman and the fat-cat shareholders of private bus operators meant reduced costs to the taxpayer and direct control of the buses. Still, somebody thought it would be a good idea to privatise them.

The council provides bus lanes giving priority over the majority of vehicles and countless traffic lights are phased also giving priority to the buses. I think thats enough subsidy.

D.a.v.e I challenge you to name one set of traffic lights that give buses priority in this city - I can think of only one set at the bottom of Garfield Road in Bitterne and I think you'll find thats about it so no subsidy there then!

As for bus lanes - Southampton lags far behind in providing these to keep buses moving compared to other cities, just look at Portsmouth who are building bus lanes ensure buses can move about the city and provide a meaningful alternative to sitting in queues of single occupancy gas guzzlers.

Echo standards of reporting hit new lows, inventing a school bus in Brockenhurst that doesnt exist, a service 5 from Southampton to Portsmouth that doesnt exist - how can you slash nothing? Publish a 'comprehensive' timetable of changes that doesn't include Southampton!

Was it a slow news day by any chance?

Below are some facts about our forthcoming service changes:
- Over 95% of customers will see no change to their regular journeys in Southampton, Fareham and Gosport
- Southampton General Hospital is served by 30 buses per hour Monday to Saturday daytime at present, after the service change this will reduce to 28 buses per hour Monday to Friday and 24 buses per hour on Saturdays (2 journeys withdrawn from service 22, 4 journeys withdrawn from service 4 and 5 on Saturdays only)
- Royal South Hants Hospital is served by 16 buses per hour weekdays daytime at present, after the service change on 7th February it will reduce to 14 buses per hour (2 journeys withdrawn from service 22)
- The service 22 and 13 withdrawals are as a result of a Southampton City Council tender review, service 22 will pass to another operator running a revised route and timetable whilst First will replace its commercial service 13 journeys with additional 11A and 12C journeys
- The journeys made on service 22 to either General Hospital or Royal South Hants Hospital can still be made using service 21 and/or a combination of other services
- Service 154 school bus will continue until the end of the current accademic year in July 2010, there is ongoing discussions between Springhill School and Southampton City Council as to whether funding will be available for school transport for the children affected beyond July 2010
- Service 683 school bus was withdrawn due to low demand, we consulted with parents and the school and as a result of feedback we are offering a guaranteed connection onto a service 72 at Gosport bus station for the children concerned
- We worked hard with both Southampton City Council and Hampshire County Council to develop tendered services that meet the transport needs of the people they serve within the tight budgets both local authorities have to work with
- New Fareham & Gosport timetables are already on our website under service changes and Southampton timetables will be published as soon as they become available
- Finally, we don't operate a school bus in Brockenhurst, there is no service 5 from Southampton to Portsmouth and there are no timetable changes to service 5 between Fareham and Portsmouth!

Lastly in response to the front page Daily Echo article of 4th January regarding service changes in Southampton, Fareham and Gosport the following statement has been made:

"I feel it is important to post a comment in relation to this story, which is slightly misleading. It is true that a number of service changes are being made in January and February, but these affect far fewer services than the Echo implies. Rather than affecting 44 services, the changes affect around 24 services, with a number of them designed to improve the punctuality and reliability of buses in the area. Some services are being improved / extended, while others – where demand has fallen due to the recession – will see the frequency of buses reduce slightly. Some of the changes relate to tendered bus services, ie services First operates on behalf of the Council – in these cases, the decision to alter services has been made by the local authority.

I urge anyone wanting complete and accurate information about the forthcoming service changes to visit the First Hampshire and Dorset website www.firstgroup.com/h
ampshire"

Its usually good when local media help get the message out of pending service changes by publishing a news story so as many people as possible get to find out, its not so good when the media don't check their facts as happened today. In response we've published some facts of the forthcoming service changes in Southampt...on, Fareham & Gosport in the notes section.

Don't TAR all bus drivers with the same brush.
Like myself there are a large number of us out there only to will to be helpful and have a laugh with passengers making their trip more enjoyable.
But like in most industries there are a few bad apples, and passengers alike, who like nothing more than **** and moan about everything regardless. Which even the most happy go lucky driver can find puts a bad taste to their day making them feel their efforts are pointless

Blimmin awful trying to get to work this morning. I made my way over to the bus stop for 6.40am and waited...
.
and waited...
.
and waited for a whole 40 minutes! Then when the little LED box with the arrival times flashed up that the next bus was 30 minutes away I'd had enough and walked about half a mile to a stop that I knew would have more of a chance of a bus as it was a main road.
.
First say this is streamlining but REALLY? Every bus I get on either packs out within 5 minutes of stops or is too full to even get on if its nearing rush hour.
.
I kind of rely on the bus at times as I don't drive. During warmer spells (even in winter) I will cycle, but lately I cant as I often need to be somewhere where there isnt cycle parking or I have shopping to hoist back.
.
I live only 5 miles from work, but this nonsense see's me taking up to 3 busses to get from a to b. I know I'm not the only one.Perhaps its time for another operator to take over
.
Having said that I think the drivers are great and make do the best they can, and have never had problems with them on the bike.

So to Quote:-......Hampshi
re County Councillor David Harrison said: “I would like to meet with First for urgent, emergency talks to see if there is any way of saving these services.
.
Karen Baxter of First Group says:-
"Some of the changes relate to tendered bus services, ie services First operates on behalf of the Council – in these cases, the decision to alter services has been made by the local authority".
.
Well Mr Harrison the way i read this is that you should start talking to Cllr Dean or whoever at Soton CC as it apears that they make the decision to alter the services.
.
So Cllr Dean is it possible that you knew of these alterations previously and they were agreed with First Bus prior to being put into operation.
.
If not...who is it at the local authority that did know ?
.
If you did know why didnt you attempt to try and persuade First Bus not to make the changes.
.
In addition if you did know then..... Cllr David Harison wants a chat....let us know what he says....

Lone Ranger,
Yes First Bus did consult with the City Council and we did suggest some changes to the service reductions they proposed. They went along with some of our suggestions and rejected some of the others.
It is their decision which routes they cut (and which routes expand such as the Blue Star ones we have seen in the City) though- these are commercial rather than council supported services.
I thought the story was very badly written by the way- The Echo didn't even get the routes right in some cases!

I was horrified to discover the anticipated 'early morning' changes to the number 4 and 5 from the City to Southampton General Hospital this morning. This is a vital service that is 'regularly' used by hospital workers who contribute to saving lives through their work! Therefore it cannot be down to the recession as the same people are getting on these early buses.

It is not easy to go through the long-winded process of changing working hours due to the bus company making bus timetable alterations and will result in some people leaving this employment.

I find the number 4 and 5 from Southampton at 7 am punctual on the whole and the drivers helpful. Firstbus, please don't deplete a service that not only is working well but is a lifeline to hospital workers and the patients they help.

Councillor Matthew Dean wrote:
Lone Ranger, Yes First Bus did consult with the City Council and we did suggest some changes to the service reductions they proposed. They went along with some of our suggestions and rejected some of the others. It is their decision which routes they cut (and which routes expand such as the Blue Star ones we have seen in the City) though- these are commercial rather than council supported services. I thought the story was very badly written by the way- The Echo didn't even get the routes right in some cases!

Thank you Cllr Dean for your response

Cllr Dean isn't quite telling the truth - the majority of cuts appear to be as a result of council funding cut backs - service 22 is being cut (this is a council contracted service) and the council have withdrawn funding of the trips on service 13 they contract. Cllr Dean appears to be unaware of the cuts Bluestar are proposing on BS3 or the cut to Bluestar 15 route (another council cut!). Again more facts the echo seemed to have missed.

úts wrote:

James May For PM wrote: if what Karen says is correct its another example of the Echo gettiing things wrong AGAIN !! for example Colchester Utd ground under "2 feet of snow" according to Echo but only 3/4 inches according to the club. When is this newpaper going to start getting its facts right? oh and does the missing canoist live in Millbrook Rd or in a houseboat cos according to the Echo he lives in/on both!!

Do you morons not read things properly? It's 24 routes in Southampton and 20 in Fareham and Gosport. As for the Colchester thing, the pitch was under 2 foot of enow 10 days ago - when the Echo printed the story. I wish people would read things before jumping to rash, ill-informed opinions - especially when they base it on what some spin doctor tells them.

1.The article has been ammended since my comment was posted. This is normal for the Echo and as comments cannot be removed after posting it can make some of them outdated.
2. I checked the Colchester Club site on the day said article was posted it stated as per my original comment 2-3 inches.

The councils report detailing its decision to cut bus routes contracted by the council can be found here:

http://www.southampt
on.gov.uk/modernGov/
Published/C00000126/
M00001200/AI00000704
/$13SupportedBusServ
icesContractV2.docA.
ps.pdf

http://www.southampt
on.gov.uk/modernGov/
Published/C00000126/
M00001200/AI00000704
/$13SupportedBusServ
iceApp1.xlsA.ps.pdf

Took me 5 minutes of searching on the southampton council website.

See lbelow
The Echo
"
COLCHESTER United have sent out a plea to their fans to help ensure their match against Saints next week can go ahead.

Alan Pardew's side are due to visit the Weston Homes Community Stadium a week today for the League One encounter.

However, Colchester's pitch is currently buried under several feet of snow.

Colchester's web site:
Colchester United are calling on their supporters for some assistance ahead of next Monday's game against Southampton.

The playing surface at the Weston Homes Community Stadium is still under several inches of snow following the recent weather conditions in the East of England.

The U's are keen to get on the front foot and remove the snow from the pitch area before it defrosts and are calling on volunteers to lend a hand.
So as stated in my original post yet another error by the Echo.
Q.E.D

Unfortunately I try to avoid using first bus if i can, routes are over priced and time keeping is awful.It costs me about 1.70 to get to the city centre on a blueline bus from thornhill, and on a first bus it cost 1.45 to get form one end of Hinkler Road to the other.I found this out when i was recovering from meningitis and was just too weak to walk, had to get my son to Kanes Hill school from Tatwin Crescent..I was absolutely gobsmacked at this price.Ive also lost count of the times a bus has just sailed past the stop when I was waiting, and the conducter that usually apperars
every few months is so rude.He told my son to get his feet off of a chair, he was 2 years old and his feet couldnt touch the floor!! I sat him on my lap, I was so furous!

This is also why I'm anti Guided Busway... if the Gosport Buses are being cut back how will the guided bus way be paid off if there is a less frequent service running and using your car is becoming equal or cheaper then bus-transport :D

This is simply not on - it's blatant exploitation of captive market opportunity from an international company that's dedicated to serving its shareholders.

Do a search for 'first capital connect', which is the train line FirstGroup is running into the ground - you'll learn a lot about how it's getting away with this. Want to guess? It pays millions to the DfT annually.

Anyone with any documentary making skills or contacts please get in touch.

Crapmaster