Most sick benefit claimants 'are fit to work' (From Daily Echo)
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Most sick benefit claimants 'are fit to work'
6:00pm Sunday 22nd April 2012 in News
Most sick benefit claimants are fit to work
MORE than two-thirds of Hampshire’s incapacity benefit claimants are being judged capable of work, it has been revealed.
For the first time, the impact of controversial new tests on people in the area receiving incapacity benefit has been published - and it shows around a third been told to look for work immediately. Another third could work with the right support, officials said.
This means that across the Hampshire and Southampton council areas, around 22,000 of the 31,000 claimants are likely to be deemed fit for work by the time all have been tested.
Employment Minister, Chris Grayling, said the figures proved the benefits system had been “a waste of human life,”
adding: “Too many people have been left languishing on benefits for too long.”
In Southampton, 120 of the 390 tests results published so far came out as fit for work, while 150 people were told they would be able to work with the right support.
Across the south area, less than a third of the claimants tested were told they could continue to receive the payment without having to look for work.
The Work Capability Assessments, carried out by French company Atos, have been controversial, with disability charities calling for them to be suspended.
There have been a large number of appeals against the assessments, with around 40 per cent of findings across the country being overturned, suggesting a number of those told to return to work will be able to carry on claiming.
Critics said the test failed to identify mental health conditions and vilified disabled people as benefit cheats.
It was introduced by Labour in 2008 as an attempt to weed out incapacity benefits claimants who were judged fit to do some form of work. The coalition government decided to expand it to existing claimants.
A series of changes were made after a governmentcommissioned review found the test, which involves physical and mental challenges, was “impersonal and mechanistic.”
Southampton Itchen Labour MP, John Denham, said he supported the principle of the testing but warned about some of the results.
The former minister said his party had assumed around half of claimants were capable of work when it had been in government.
But he added: “There is undoubtedly some real stress being caused to people, some of whom will never, ever work.”
Comments(69)
Dr Martin
says...
6:22pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Just another reader wrote:I doubt it if some of those benefit scoungers have to work as hard as the poles do they would cry off sick for months
Interesting. I reckon if you get this lot back to work they'll be doing the jobs our Polish invaders are doing.
dango
says...
6:26pm Sun 22 Apr 12
dolomiteman
says...
6:34pm Sun 22 Apr 12
dango wrote:It may be different but doesn't change the fact there are lot of people claiming 'sick'because they can not be bothered to work. Too many doctors, GP's and other specialist are all too happy to sign someone off just because they say they can't work etc.
I wouldn't really trust a study carried out by a bunch of cheese eating surrender monkys to be honest. It depends how you define fit. Fit to work in an office is very different to being fit to work on a production line or on a building site, for instance.
bigfella777
says...
6:39pm Sun 22 Apr 12
What employer is going to look at their CV and see 10 years couldnt be bothered and claimed benefits I wasnt entitled too as an incentive to employ them.
All this means is they will be put onto a different benefit what a sham.
freemantlegirl2
says...
7:11pm Sun 22 Apr 12
There will always be people who don't want to work, but our welfare system is for those that aren't able or temporarily unable. The amount of revenue lost in tax avoidance is far greater than benefit fraud yet these slippery individuals mostly 'get away with it'. Everyone moans about the IR and choose to focus on benefit claimants but I bet if someone looked at a sample of the same population and their Tax affairs the results would be quite startling. Before you go on about benefit fraud, look at your own house and tax payments - are you doing any work on the side/cash in hand that you accidentally forget about? I'm betting most of us have one time or another.
Not condoning those who are really swinging the lead because it's disgusting and leads to hysteria and benefit slashing and only penalises those who are most vulnerable.
sarfhamton
says...
7:12pm Sun 22 Apr 12
I also agree that many people from Poland and beyond have shown that will do the work that many British born job seekers would not / could not do.
The answer to all this is create a work culture again and show that going to work for many people keeps them both mentally and physically well.
The wickedsaint
says...
7:16pm Sun 22 Apr 12
BenjiWinsor
says...
7:21pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Out of all those deemed fit for work following an ATOS computer assessment between 40%-70% (depending on whether they are represented) of those that appeal have that decision overturned by a panel consisting of a qualified Doctor, a specialist in disability and a qualified Doctor who know far more than an ATOS computer. So the numbers actually deemed fit for work following the appeals process is far smaller than the numbers quoted here.
saintmark1977
says...
7:22pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Further, what is the cost to the government in processing these unnecessary appeals? Perhaps our French friends at ATOS need to be looked at to see if they are providing value for money?
For those who are judged fit for work where are the jobs? We currently have 2.6 million unemployed persons including over 1 million young people and less than 500,000 vacant positions.
Just thought I would add a little balance to the previous posts.
Turtlebay
says...
7:22pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Mr Denham's party when in power nearly bankrupted the country, so perhaps he could answer this question himself, here on this column!
Over the Edge
says...
7:29pm Sun 22 Apr 12
freemantlegirl2 wrote:Totally agree and people with unseen conditions will be forced back into once the Tories changes really kick in.
The Daily Mail and the DWP have been caught out 'manipulating' the truth about this. Check out the FactCheck website which is non-biased and impartial.
There will always be people who don't want to work, but our welfare system is for those that aren't able or temporarily unable. The amount of revenue lost in tax avoidance is far greater than benefit fraud yet these slippery individuals mostly 'get away with it'. Everyone moans about the IR and choose to focus on benefit claimants but I bet if someone looked at a sample of the same population and their Tax affairs the results would be quite startling. Before you go on about benefit fraud, look at your own house and tax payments - are you doing any work on the side/cash in hand that you accidentally forget about? I'm betting most of us have one time or another.
Not condoning those who are really swinging the lead because it's disgusting and leads to hysteria and benefit slashing and only penalises those who are most vulnerable.
Linesman
says...
7:33pm Sun 22 Apr 12
freemantlegirl2 wrote:You are so right. More money lost by tax avoidance, by those who have plenty already, than is paid to benefits cheats.
The Daily Mail and the DWP have been caught out 'manipulating' the truth about this. Check out the FactCheck website which is non-biased and impartial.
There will always be people who don't want to work, but our welfare system is for those that aren't able or temporarily unable. The amount of revenue lost in tax avoidance is far greater than benefit fraud yet these slippery individuals mostly 'get away with it'. Everyone moans about the IR and choose to focus on benefit claimants but I bet if someone looked at a sample of the same population and their Tax affairs the results would be quite startling. Before you go on about benefit fraud, look at your own house and tax payments - are you doing any work on the side/cash in hand that you accidentally forget about? I'm betting most of us have one time or another.
Not condoning those who are really swinging the lead because it's disgusting and leads to hysteria and benefit slashing and only penalises those who are most vulnerable.
Similarly with Blue Badge holders. They are going to be tested by physiotherapists, who have not got the qualifications that the badge holder's doctor has, and will say whether or not the badge should be withdrawn.
If the same time and effort were put in by the police and traffic wardens to check that those using the blue badge are the person to which the badge was issued, there would be a hell of a lot less blue badges in use.
ssnaked23
says...
8:13pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Turtlebay wrote:I think this has been a longtime coming as I for one think the welfare state has been abused by the lazy shirkers out there who think they have the right just to claim without having given anything towards this country's prosperity.
During these times of high unemployment where are they supposed to get work? Mr Denham's party when in power nearly bankrupted the country, so perhaps he could answer this question himself, here on this column!
Turtlebay it seems to me that you are obviously not a Labour lover (probably a Conservative) I would like to point out that the Conservatives "deindustralised" this once great manufacturing nation starting when Thatcher came in power in favour of having a service sector and the desire to go on a construction frenzy to build shopping malls for the sale of increased cheaper imported manufactured goods. Its no use saying about how the country was nearly bankrupted when there werent the jobs there in the first place we just dont have the manufacturing base like we did and not everyone of the working population is either able or wanting to work in the service sector where a lot of our problems have actually derived from. Think about the bankers and what they have done.
saintmark1977
says...
8:14pm Sun 22 Apr 12
I could not help but smile at the last few words of your post where you say " so we can tax cuts".
Now there is an idea even the current government have not thought of, or have they?
forest hump
says...
8:21pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Rob444
says...
8:27pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Why are the poor always being demonised?
Putting sick people on benefits was one of Thatcher's 36 measures to fiddle the unemployment figures.
If the people in question are fit for work, then how did they qualify for benefits in the first place? Some benefits employee must have made that decision.
Where are the jobs?
arthur dalyrimple
says...
8:37pm Sun 22 Apr 12
callumj1991
says...
9:01pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Richard 51
says...
9:28pm Sun 22 Apr 12
It reallys **** (pun intended) me off when I read some of your comments
Spoonydoc
says...
9:36pm Sun 22 Apr 12
People placed in the second group of the new benefit, known as the WRAG (Work Related Activity Group) are NOT fit for work as reported in this article. However they are expected to recover and be able to return to work at some point in the future. This could be years away. This group includes people suffering from cancer, MS, heart attacks, strokes and many other debilitating illnesses and disabilities. They are offered help and support until such time as their health improves. This is the situation for the 150 people mentioned in the article, while 120 are so ill that they are never expected to be able to work again. Thus even the headline of this article is factually wrong.
While the rest were indeed found fit to work it must be remembered that 40% of such decisions are overturned at appeal, with the success rate rising to 70% with representation.
The test itself has been found unfit for purpose by every inquiry going and the computer program (LIMA) on which it is based has been outlawed in many parts of the USA.
More worryingly the company which developed this software and which is the parent company of the one in charge of assessing claimants (and getting it wrong so often) has moved instead to the UK in order to sell... private insurance in the event of disability or illness...
There IS a story to be told here. Unfortunately it is not the one the Echo chose to write.
wizard
says...
9:56pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Spoonydoc wrote:There is a big story to be told, unfortunately you get the blind leading the blind on these forums and perpetuating the hype!
Disappointingly inaccurate information from the Daily Echo and an example of articles which perpetuate myths of benefit scroungers.
People placed in the second group of the new benefit, known as the WRAG (Work Related Activity Group) are NOT fit for work as reported in this article. However they are expected to recover and be able to return to work at some point in the future. This could be years away. This group includes people suffering from cancer, MS, heart attacks, strokes and many other debilitating illnesses and disabilities. They are offered help and support until such time as their health improves. This is the situation for the 150 people mentioned in the article, while 120 are so ill that they are never expected to be able to work again. Thus even the headline of this article is factually wrong.
While the rest were indeed found fit to work it must be remembered that 40% of such decisions are overturned at appeal, with the success rate rising to 70% with representation.
The test itself has been found unfit for purpose by every inquiry going and the computer program (LIMA) on which it is based has been outlawed in many parts of the USA.
More worryingly the company which developed this software and which is the parent company of the one in charge of assessing claimants (and getting it wrong so often) has moved instead to the UK in order to sell... private insurance in the event of disability or illness...
There IS a story to be told here. Unfortunately it is not the one the Echo chose to write.
Beer Monster
says...
10:13pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Cookiecutter
says...
10:17pm Sun 22 Apr 12
clausentum
says...
10:31pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Cookiecutter wrote:"But ive yet to find any good apples."
Being unemployed is a curse and having to pit oneself against an immigrant Pole who is taking this country to the depths of destruction with their fighting in the streets and smashing rooming houses up with their drinking and their criminal activities. OH i know there are always a few bad apples but it only takes one maggot in a barrel to destroy good fruit. But ive yet to find any good apples.
Try eating pears.
Better still, purchase a bucketful of figs to aid your constipated racism.
The Wickham Man
says...
11:36pm Sun 22 Apr 12
saintmark1977
says...
11:36pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Polish people are allowed to work in this country because of their legal rights as members of the European Union.
In the same way, if you wished to work in the E U then there would be nothing to stop you,assuming of course that you are a UK national. Indeed I believe some 500,000 U K nationals currently work in the E U hence it is by all means not all one way traffic .
Reference your comments in regard to you being unable to find any good apples. I respectfully suggest that you broaden your horizons and look harder.I know of some fine hardworking Poles particularly in the care industry.
David Icke
says...
11:38pm Sun 22 Apr 12
MisterGrimsdale
says...
11:41pm Sun 22 Apr 12
Congrats Snake - but can you explain why you go on about "the bankers" who are actually paying huge amounts of PAYE on their bonusses - yet you completely let off footballers who earn even more and have all their wages and bonusses paid into offshore accounts via limited companies so they aren't paying any tax contribution at all! Why do all the socialists give footballers and rock stars an easy ride, but pick on people who are actually paying a lot of tax?
Torchie1
says...
12:08am Mon 23 Apr 12
MisterGrimsdale wrote:The latest HMRC Income Tax figures show that 89% of all Income Tax is paid by the top 50% of earners. I think those who squeal about inequality ought to be grateful that the burden isn't more evenly distributed.
And the prize for the first idiot to mention "The bankers" goes to .....ssnaked23!
Congrats Snake - but can you explain why you go on about "the bankers" who are actually paying huge amounts of PAYE on their bonusses - yet you completely let off footballers who earn even more and have all their wages and bonusses paid into offshore accounts via limited companies so they aren't paying any tax contribution at all! Why do all the socialists give footballers and rock stars an easy ride, but pick on people who are actually paying a lot of tax?
TEBOURBA
says...
12:21am Mon 23 Apr 12
There are over 2.5m unemployed, over 1m of whom are between 16 and 24, where are these opportunities of employment?
Why do we need a French Company, ATOS to do this research, with 2.5m
unemployed in this country why not a use a British Company employing British people?
Does ATOS consider a one legged man should "hop to it?"
A blind man should "feel his way?" or a mentally challenged person to "get his head around it?"
Absolute Tory inspired propaganda to be thrown out with the dish water.
Poppy22
says...
1:47am Mon 23 Apr 12
ShakeyWiffles
says...
4:19am Mon 23 Apr 12
Andy Locks Heath
says...
6:44am Mon 23 Apr 12
TEBOURBA wrote:And presumably your compassion extends to making a series of childish and offensive puns but then pretending that it was the tories who said it and not you? You will find it was you.
Thank God for Freemantlegirl2, Benji, Turtle, Over the Edge and Linesman, who seem to be the only contributors with any degree of commonsense and compassion as opposed to the hang 'em, waste them mob that predominates this column.
There are over 2.5m unemployed, over 1m of whom are between 16 and 24, where are these opportunities of employment?
Why do we need a French Company, ATOS to do this research, with 2.5m
unemployed in this country why not a use a British Company employing British people?
Does ATOS consider a one legged man should "hop to it?"
A blind man should "feel his way?" or a mentally challenged person to "get his head around it?"
Absolute Tory inspired propaganda to be thrown out with the dish water.
Beer Monster
says...
7:47am Mon 23 Apr 12
saintmark1977 wrote:Totally agreed Mark - I'm currently working in Edinburgh, and the Wetherspoons I frequent most often, The Standing Order, employs a good handful of Poles, all of whom are friendly, hard working and speak perfectly decent English.
Cookiecutter,
Polish people are allowed to work in this country because of their legal rights as members of the European Union.
In the same way, if you wished to work in the E U then there would be nothing to stop you,assuming of course that you are a UK national. Indeed I believe some 500,000 U K nationals currently work in the E U hence it is by all means not all one way traffic .
Reference your comments in regard to you being unable to find any good apples. I respectfully suggest that you broaden your horizons and look harder.I know of some fine hardworking Poles particularly in the care industry.
Considering that the hours they work are long, the work isn't always smooth running and they are on our minimum wage, I don't see any reason why anybody could resent their hard labour...
bigfella777
says...
8:01am Mon 23 Apr 12
ShakeyWiffles wrote:You just about sum it up really, absolutely spineless, there's tons of people who work with disabilities, Oh poor me now I've got depression,you need a good kick up the @ss.
I've been through the tests by ATOS and instead of helping me and trying to find a solution to my problem (I've wanted to work for years) they sent me into clinical depression because of the way I was treated. They keep saying I'm able to work now but I'm not. Not for longer than a few hours a week. I type with one hand which will inevitably lead to arthritis. I have tinitus in 1 ear and slightly slurred speech so I can't use the phone. I can't write where I broke my arm near the elbow. I have to use a walking stick anywhere where I don't know surfaces too well BUT some stupid computer fails to acknowledge this. They like to say that they do mental tests but they don't. My last interview I was made to stand on one leg and I VERY nearly fell over. Now what job involves that? My mother or father have to come with me as my short term memory no longer exists but they aren't allowed to speak so the questions they ask I have to reply with "I don't know" Do NOT label us all benefit thieves, the majority of us want nothing more than to work. Why am I typing this at 4:17am I hear you ask? I suffer from a slight bout of insomnia as all I concentrate on when I go to bed is the ringing in my ears. I think a lot of you need to think outside of the box and I really do hope nothing that makes you stay out of work happens EVER
pod
says...
9:22am Mon 23 Apr 12
bigfella777 wrote:I just tried standing on one leg, and I nearly fell over too.
ShakeyWiffles wrote:You just about sum it up really, absolutely spineless, there's tons of people who work with disabilities, Oh poor me now I've got depression,you need a good kick up the @ss.
I've been through the tests by ATOS and instead of helping me and trying to find a solution to my problem (I've wanted to work for years) they sent me into clinical depression because of the way I was treated. They keep saying I'm able to work now but I'm not. Not for longer than a few hours a week. I type with one hand which will inevitably lead to arthritis. I have tinitus in 1 ear and slightly slurred speech so I can't use the phone. I can't write where I broke my arm near the elbow. I have to use a walking stick anywhere where I don't know surfaces too well BUT some stupid computer fails to acknowledge this. They like to say that they do mental tests but they don't. My last interview I was made to stand on one leg and I VERY nearly fell over. Now what job involves that? My mother or father have to come with me as my short term memory no longer exists but they aren't allowed to speak so the questions they ask I have to reply with "I don't know" Do NOT label us all benefit thieves, the majority of us want nothing more than to work. Why am I typing this at 4:17am I hear you ask? I suffer from a slight bout of insomnia as all I concentrate on when I go to bed is the ringing in my ears. I think a lot of you need to think outside of the box and I really do hope nothing that makes you stay out of work happens EVER
I was diagnosed last year with a progressive disease, but luckily I am still working, but I do not know for how long. The problem is so many people who could work are abusing the system, making it difficult for people who are really unable to work to claim what they are entitled to. I know of many people who continue to work, a friend who is a double amputee has always worked full time, I also know of someone else who claims to be unable to work but regularly drives a transit van with a caravan up to scotland and back.
You are always going to get the gimmes in life.
loosehead
says...
9:25am Mon 23 Apr 12
freemantlegirl2 wrote:Out of all the appeals 60% have been found capable of working.
The Daily Mail and the DWP have been caught out 'manipulating' the truth about this. Check out the FactCheck website which is non-biased and impartial.
There will always be people who don't want to work, but our welfare system is for those that aren't able or temporarily unable. The amount of revenue lost in tax avoidance is far greater than benefit fraud yet these slippery individuals mostly 'get away with it'. Everyone moans about the IR and choose to focus on benefit claimants but I bet if someone looked at a sample of the same population and their Tax affairs the results would be quite startling. Before you go on about benefit fraud, look at your own house and tax payments - are you doing any work on the side/cash in hand that you accidentally forget about? I'm betting most of us have one time or another.
Not condoning those who are really swinging the lead because it's disgusting and leads to hysteria and benefit slashing and only penalises those who are most vulnerable.
Freemantle girl I know of one/two individuals who were both claiming. one had a studio flat(council) one lived in a two bedroom flat. both claimed social one claimed invalidity pay.
they both were living in the same flat the studio was rented out.
one of them went ahead & worked on the side whilst claiming he ended up buying the place he was working at & then selling it at a profit & carried on working there.
I know of many cases similar to this one.
I & my friend would work every hour we could yet these people seemed to have far more money than us & if with out them knowing it was us we could have shopped them we would have,
you go on about tax avoidance?
these people are stealing straight from us this is the money we have had to pay for being honest & going to work.
tax avoidance just means there's less money to give to the welfare cheats.
You can't as has been seen by the charities going ape about the rate you get tax relief on money paid to charities really say that tax avoidance ( charity payments) is the same as Fraudulently claiming benefits as surely no charity benefits from the latter does it?
loosehead
says...
9:38am Mon 23 Apr 12
Labour instigated this process & with every new test/idea there are flaws which the 40-70% appeals have proven but what about the other 30-60%? are they all innocent to?
Is this Maggies fault they're screwing the system?
didn't Brown want us all to go into White collar work?
Are you telling me these people couldn't sit at a desk?
Have you watched any program that show you the extremes these people go to con their doctors?
A genuine person should get all our help.
but do the ones who say they can't walk very far & then get caught ski-ing?
If we forget politics & we were honest how many of you know of someone diddling the welfare system?
Sort out the frauds & the welfare bill wouldn't be so high & there would be more for the genuine people & less for us to pay out
rightway
says...
10:55am Mon 23 Apr 12
This of course does not take away the fact that politicians will always use the vulnerable as whipping boys for their political ends.
Those unable to defend themselves always make the easiest targets.
cliffwalker
says...
10:56am Mon 23 Apr 12
If all this effort is spent on demonising almost every claimant as a benefit cheat, what resources are left over for identifying the real fraudsters?
George4th
says...
11:12am Mon 23 Apr 12
ssnaked23 wrote:"I would like to point out that the Conservatives "deindustralised" this once great manufacturing nation"
Turtlebay wrote:I think this has been a longtime coming as I for one think the welfare state has been abused by the lazy shirkers out there who think they have the right just to claim without having given anything towards this country's prosperity.
During these times of high unemployment where are they supposed to get work? Mr Denham's party when in power nearly bankrupted the country, so perhaps he could answer this question himself, here on this column!
Turtlebay it seems to me that you are obviously not a Labour lover (probably a Conservative) I would like to point out that the Conservatives "deindustralise
d" this once great manufacturing nation starting when Thatcher came in power in favour of having a service sector and the desire to go on a construction frenzy to build shopping malls for the sale of increased cheaper imported manufactured goods. Its no use saying about how the country was nearly bankrupted when there werent the jobs there in the first place we just dont have the manufacturing base like we did and not everyone of the working population is either able or wanting to work in the service sector where a lot of our problems have actually derived from. Think about the bankers and what they have done.
When Thatcher took over this country was bankrupt and being run by the IMF! Our so called "industries" were uncompetitive and controlled by the Unions who had long prevented modernisation.
>
I suggest you have a look at the BBC 2 program from last week called "The 70s" when they covered 1971 and 1972. 1973 and 1974 are on tonight.
Spoonydoc
says...
11:15am Mon 23 Apr 12
What is wrong is the headline, the figures and the proportion of people able to do so. When taking the correct figures and appeals into account, 85% of claimants are in fact unfit for work (only roughly 60 of the 390 claimants will be moved to job seekers allowance).
This is completely different to the sensationalist headline "most sick benefit claimants are fit to work" and the claim that 22,000 of 31,000 will be found fit for work. It simply is not true and articles like this are downright irresponsible.
Living with sickness and disability, losing your career and your income is difficult enough without having to defend yourself against accusations of fraud and laziness.
George4th
says...
11:22am Mon 23 Apr 12
loosehead wrote:I agree with you.
So all the are the majority of you saying there aren't people fraudulently claiming benefits?
Labour instigated this process & with every new test/idea there are flaws which the 40-70% appeals have proven but what about the other 30-60%? are they all innocent to?
Is this Maggies fault they're screwing the system?
didn't Brown want us all to go into White collar work?
Are you telling me these people couldn't sit at a desk?
Have you watched any program that show you the extremes these people go to con their doctors?
A genuine person should get all our help.
but do the ones who say they can't walk very far & then get caught ski-ing?
If we forget politics & we were honest how many of you know of someone diddling the welfare system?
Sort out the frauds & the welfare bill wouldn't be so high & there would be more for the genuine people & less for us to pay out
>
The holier than thous come on here and defend the indefensible!
The general public is two faced. It will complain about what "they" see as unfair but when it comes to their own lives and the lives of people around them, they see it differently. Why don't people report known benefit fiddlers? Why don't you report known tax dodgers? Why don't you report VAT dodgers? Do you report any of those engaged in the Black Market economy who do not declare their income for tax purposes? Do you report those who do cash deals and don't declare it? Do you report trades people for not invoicing for VAT? Do you pay VAT on everything?! Do you buy cheap tobacco? Do you buy cheap alcohol? Etc etc etc.........
>
I am a big fan of the welfare state. It is there for anyone who requires genuine help and assistance. I do not like benefit cheats.
soobear
says...
11:26am Mon 23 Apr 12
chunky_lover
says...
11:29am Mon 23 Apr 12
ohec
says...
11:40am Mon 23 Apr 12
loosehead
says...
12:37pm Mon 23 Apr 12
ohec wrote:Did you see the tv program where they went up to a group of youths up North & offered them jobs?
I think we would all agree that something has to be done to reduce the welfare bill, we all know who is to blame for the current situation but who has got the answer whatever the final result is after any appeal any attempt to reduce the welfare bill has to be a good thing even if it only means going onto JSA as opposed to incapacity benefit (less money and a requirement to look for work) we need to restore the work ethic or in many cases teach it but the only way to do that is to make work pay, so benefits need to be slowly reduced or in some cases scrapped altogether i.e. family allowance for one. We need to be looking at future welfare costs now as we have an ageing population that are living longer so the pension and the health costs are going to rise very quickly, having a child is a choice getting older isn't so if you can't support a child don't have one. As for the argument about foreigners taking our jobs don't blame them blame our governments for allowing it, many Brits work abroad for the same reason the Pole's come here "money" they can earn more and get benefits to send home, we should pull out of anything to do with the E.U. and take charge of our own country again.
it was farm work & if sufficient hours were worked they could earn far more than on the dole.
half were interested the other half said NO WAY why work?
then the half that sounded interested found out what the work was & the hours they would have to work. half said they wouldn't get out of bed to do that work the other half said wouldn't work to many hours & they get their rent paid & bills plus they get extra's for being on the dole.
In the end not one of them would take up the offer of work that's one of the reasons Eastern Europeans are finding 3million jobs which shows how wrong the welfare system now is when we have below 3million unemployed if these people were forced into the jobs we would through incapability have approximately 1million long turn unemployed.
plus roughly 1million vacancies you have to put blame where it belongs & that's successive governments not tackling the welfare/benefit system.
To have people coming on here saying it's hard to get disability payments are you in dream world?
the proof is in the pudding how many programs how many people not "grassing" on known frauds?
we have to find a test where people can't con the Doctors & the people who have a invalidity that stops them working get their money but not the frauds & yes we all know someone who's either on the fiddle or who has fiddled
ssnaked23
says...
1:28pm Mon 23 Apr 12
MisterGrimsdale wrote:I think if you would like to read my comment I didnt make any reference about people (sorry, pick on people who actually paying a lot of tax)and their earnings and paying tax, rather I was pointing out that it was the service sector seemingly at fault and that due to the lack of manufacturing in this country not providing employment
And the prize for the first idiot to mention "The bankers" goes to .....ssnaked23! Congrats Snake - but can you explain why you go on about "the bankers" who are actually paying huge amounts of PAYE on their bonusses - yet you completely let off footballers who earn even more and have all their wages and bonusses paid into offshore accounts via limited companies so they aren't paying any tax contribution at all! Why do all the socialists give footballers and rock stars an easy ride, but pick on people who are actually paying a lot of tax?
ssnaked23
says...
1:34pm Mon 23 Apr 12
George4th wrote:I dont disagree that the unions didnt help matters
ssnaked23 wrote:"I would like to point out that the Conservatives "deindustralised" this once great manufacturing nation" When Thatcher took over this country was bankrupt and being run by the IMF! Our so called "industries" were uncompetitive and controlled by the Unions who had long prevented modernisation. > I suggest you have a look at the BBC 2 program from last week called "The 70s" when they covered 1971 and 1972. 1973 and 1974 are on tonight.Turtlebay wrote: During these times of high unemployment where are they supposed to get work? Mr Denham's party when in power nearly bankrupted the country, so perhaps he could answer this question himself, here on this column!I think this has been a longtime coming as I for one think the welfare state has been abused by the lazy shirkers out there who think they have the right just to claim without having given anything towards this country's prosperity. Turtlebay it seems to me that you are obviously not a Labour lover (probably a Conservative) I would like to point out that the Conservatives "deindustralise d" this once great manufacturing nation starting when Thatcher came in power in favour of having a service sector and the desire to go on a construction frenzy to build shopping malls for the sale of increased cheaper imported manufactured goods. Its no use saying about how the country was nearly bankrupted when there werent the jobs there in the first place we just dont have the manufacturing base like we did and not everyone of the working population is either able or wanting to work in the service sector where a lot of our problems have actually derived from. Think about the bankers and what they have done.
, but then neither did management, it wasnt just the unions preventing modernisation, as for being bankrupt that was the fault of both the Labour and Tory parties of the time, in fact by the late 80's our deficit was far worse than that of the 70's, £23000 Million as apposed to £3600 Million in the 70s). Suggest you read this article, one of many found on the Internet http://www.stewartmo
rris.com/essays/14In
gham2.pdf which talks about the Economic Crisis of the UK during the 1970's.
PREMIERSAINTS-FACT
says...
2:41pm Mon 23 Apr 12
Trash the test and give to the people that are obviously unable, the rest would need to fight their particular case's. I would also, probably quite controversially, remove the addition of obesity as an accepted condition (not including clinical obesity, and obesity as a side effect of any clincal illness).
George4th
says...
2:51pm Mon 23 Apr 12
ssnaked23 wrote:Apart from the Left Wing led Unions there was another major factor influencing our society and it's called aspiration! As I said, watch the BBC 2 program "The 70s". Dominic Sandbrook is an historian well worth listening too.
George4th wrote:I dont disagree that the unions didnt help matters
ssnaked23 wrote:"I would like to point out that the Conservatives "deindustralised" this once great manufacturing nation" When Thatcher took over this country was bankrupt and being run by the IMF! Our so called "industries" were uncompetitive and controlled by the Unions who had long prevented modernisation. > I suggest you have a look at the BBC 2 program from last week called "The 70s" when they covered 1971 and 1972. 1973 and 1974 are on tonight.Turtlebay wrote: During these times of high unemployment where are they supposed to get work? Mr Denham's party when in power nearly bankrupted the country, so perhaps he could answer this question himself, here on this column!I think this has been a longtime coming as I for one think the welfare state has been abused by the lazy shirkers out there who think they have the right just to claim without having given anything towards this country's prosperity. Turtlebay it seems to me that you are obviously not a Labour lover (probably a Conservative) I would like to point out that the Conservatives "deindustralise d" this once great manufacturing nation starting when Thatcher came in power in favour of having a service sector and the desire to go on a construction frenzy to build shopping malls for the sale of increased cheaper imported manufactured goods. Its no use saying about how the country was nearly bankrupted when there werent the jobs there in the first place we just dont have the manufacturing base like we did and not everyone of the working population is either able or wanting to work in the service sector where a lot of our problems have actually derived from. Think about the bankers and what they have done.
, but then neither did management, it wasnt just the unions preventing modernisation, as for being bankrupt that was the fault of both the Labour and Tory parties of the time, in fact by the late 80's our deficit was far worse than that of the 70's, £23000 Million as apposed to £3600 Million in the 70s). Suggest you read this article, one of many found on the Internet http://www.stewartmo
rris.com/essays/14In
gham2.pdf which talks about the Economic Crisis of the UK during the 1970's.
Monty3
says...
5:10pm Mon 23 Apr 12
There is a culture of laziness and everyone feels they are "owed something" for doing nothing. It's easy to accuse immigrants of "stealing jobs"...but the fact the people on benefits would refuse to do the work anyway.
Monty3
says...
5:10pm Mon 23 Apr 12
There is a culture of laziness and everyone feels they are "owed something" for doing nothing. It's easy to accuse immigrants of "stealing jobs"...but the fact the people on benefits would refuse to do the work anyway.
ShakeyWiffles
says...
6:06pm Mon 23 Apr 12
bigfella777 wrote:Oh how nice of you to ignore ALL my problems. I didn't say I was still depressed did I? I think YOU summed up what YOU are - SPINELESS.
ShakeyWiffles wrote:You just about sum it up really, absolutely spineless, there's tons of people who work with disabilities, Oh poor me now I've got depression,you need a good kick up the @ss.
I've been through the tests by ATOS and instead of helping me and trying to find a solution to my problem (I've wanted to work for years) they sent me into clinical depression because of the way I was treated. They keep saying I'm able to work now but I'm not. Not for longer than a few hours a week. I type with one hand which will inevitably lead to arthritis. I have tinitus in 1 ear and slightly slurred speech so I can't use the phone. I can't write where I broke my arm near the elbow. I have to use a walking stick anywhere where I don't know surfaces too well BUT some stupid computer fails to acknowledge this. They like to say that they do mental tests but they don't. My last interview I was made to stand on one leg and I VERY nearly fell over. Now what job involves that? My mother or father have to come with me as my short term memory no longer exists but they aren't allowed to speak so the questions they ask I have to reply with "I don't know" Do NOT label us all benefit thieves, the majority of us want nothing more than to work. Why am I typing this at 4:17am I hear you ask? I suffer from a slight bout of insomnia as all I concentrate on when I go to bed is the ringing in my ears. I think a lot of you need to think outside of the box and I really do hope nothing that makes you stay out of work happens EVER
Monty3
says...
6:37pm Mon 23 Apr 12
ShakeyWiffles wrote:Sounds like a case of hypochondria...if you change your attitude you'll find yourself more capable of doing stuff!
bigfella777 wrote:Oh how nice of you to ignore ALL my problems. I didn't say I was still depressed did I? I think YOU summed up what YOU are - SPINELESS.
ShakeyWiffles wrote:You just about sum it up really, absolutely spineless, there's tons of people who work with disabilities, Oh poor me now I've got depression,you need a good kick up the @ss.
I've been through the tests by ATOS and instead of helping me and trying to find a solution to my problem (I've wanted to work for years) they sent me into clinical depression because of the way I was treated. They keep saying I'm able to work now but I'm not. Not for longer than a few hours a week. I type with one hand which will inevitably lead to arthritis. I have tinitus in 1 ear and slightly slurred speech so I can't use the phone. I can't write where I broke my arm near the elbow. I have to use a walking stick anywhere where I don't know surfaces too well BUT some stupid computer fails to acknowledge this. They like to say that they do mental tests but they don't. My last interview I was made to stand on one leg and I VERY nearly fell over. Now what job involves that? My mother or father have to come with me as my short term memory no longer exists but they aren't allowed to speak so the questions they ask I have to reply with "I don't know" Do NOT label us all benefit thieves, the majority of us want nothing more than to work. Why am I typing this at 4:17am I hear you ask? I suffer from a slight bout of insomnia as all I concentrate on when I go to bed is the ringing in my ears. I think a lot of you need to think outside of the box and I really do hope nothing that makes you stay out of work happens EVER
My dad still worked 12 hour shifts whilst on dialysis waiting for a kidney transplant and he felt terribly ill a lot of the time but just got on with things rather than making excuses!
There's no such thing as "can't"...I'm sick of people who say they can't do things!
Spoonydoc
says...
7:02pm Mon 23 Apr 12
"The same cannot be said for the article appearing yesterday in the Daily Echo with the rather sensational headline: "Most sick benefit claimants are fit to work".
However their definition of ‘fit to work’ leaves much to be desired. The opening claim of the paper that "more than two-thirds of Hampshire’s incapacity benefit claimants are being judged capable of work" can only be true if conflating those classified as Fit for Work with those claimants in the Work Related Activity Group. But to be placed in the WRAG one has to be:
“Suffering from a life threatening disease in relation to which there is medical evidence that the disease is uncontrollable.”
“An in-patient in a hospital or similar institution.”
“ regular weekly treatment by way of by way of haemodyalisis or chronic renal failure.”
“Receiving treatment by way of intravenous, intraperitoneal or intrathecal chemotherapy.”
Such individuals are not 'Fit for Work' as described by the Daily Echo.
Instead the DWP defines the Work Related Activity Group as those who, with the right support, may be able to return to work at some point in the future."
For full details see here:
http://fullfact.org/
factchecks/are_most_
incapacity_benefit_c
laimants_found_fit_f
or_work_in_some_part
s_of_the_country
Please do your research before printing inflammatory articles. The tone of the reader's comments shows only too well the damage it can cause.
Fatty x Ford Worker
says...
7:17pm Mon 23 Apr 12
Fatty x Ford Worker
says...
7:19pm Mon 23 Apr 12
Monty3 wrote:DONT YOU MEAN ON THE DRIP FEED!
Tell us something we don't already know...the majority of people on benefits are claiming on the fiddle and don't really need them!
There is a culture of laziness and everyone feels they are "owed something" for doing nothing. It's easy to accuse immigrants of "stealing jobs"...but the fact the people on benefits would refuse to do the work anyway.
pod
says...
7:25pm Mon 23 Apr 12
Monty3 wrote:I type with one hand which will inevitably lead to arthritis - so you don't have it at the moment!!
ShakeyWiffles wrote:Sounds like a case of hypochondria...if you change your attitude you'll find yourself more capable of doing stuff!
bigfella777 wrote:Oh how nice of you to ignore ALL my problems. I didn't say I was still depressed did I? I think YOU summed up what YOU are - SPINELESS.
ShakeyWiffles wrote:You just about sum it up really, absolutely spineless, there's tons of people who work with disabilities, Oh poor me now I've got depression,you need a good kick up the @ss.
I've been through the tests by ATOS and instead of helping me and trying to find a solution to my problem (I've wanted to work for years) they sent me into clinical depression because of the way I was treated. They keep saying I'm able to work now but I'm not. Not for longer than a few hours a week. I type with one hand which will inevitably lead to arthritis. I have tinitus in 1 ear and slightly slurred speech so I can't use the phone. I can't write where I broke my arm near the elbow. I have to use a walking stick anywhere where I don't know surfaces too well BUT some stupid computer fails to acknowledge this. They like to say that they do mental tests but they don't. My last interview I was made to stand on one leg and I VERY nearly fell over. Now what job involves that? My mother or father have to come with me as my short term memory no longer exists but they aren't allowed to speak so the questions they ask I have to reply with "I don't know" Do NOT label us all benefit thieves, the majority of us want nothing more than to work. Why am I typing this at 4:17am I hear you ask? I suffer from a slight bout of insomnia as all I concentrate on when I go to bed is the ringing in my ears. I think a lot of you need to think outside of the box and I really do hope nothing that makes you stay out of work happens EVER
My dad still worked 12 hour shifts whilst on dialysis waiting for a kidney transplant and he felt terribly ill a lot of the time but just got on with things rather than making excuses!
There's no such thing as "can't"...I'm sick of people who say they can't do things!
Made to stand on one leg and I VERY nearly fell over.
Take your parents with you - how old are you?? I have short term memory loss and believe me that is the mild term for it and I am still working.
slight bout of insomnia - good job you do not have to get up for work then.
tinitus in one ear - my husband and many others have it in both and still work.
you broke your arm so cannot write - one of my friends only has one arm and he makes jewelery for a living, no benefits for him, as with many others, we all have problems. The difference is attitude - most of us just get on with it.
Maybe your post came over wrongly, but you are really coming across a a big baby whinger. man up and focus on what you can do and leave the benefit system for those that really need it.
Your computing skills are obviously ok.
cliffwalker
says...
7:40pm Mon 23 Apr 12
deadbat
says...
8:52pm Mon 23 Apr 12
Just another reader wrote:Someone in a coma could be used as a door stop....
Interesting. I reckon if you get this lot back to work they'll be doing the jobs our Polish invaders are doing.
ShakeyWiffles
says...
2:48am Tue 24 Apr 12
As for you Daily Echo. Feel bloody ashamed. I notice there wasn't a journalist willing to put his name to this drivel! Do you see what you've done? Set all these holier than thou "people" on someone for putting THE OTHER side across. Expect a FORMAL complaint from me.
P.S. whether or not my conputer skills are alright, this took me AN HOUR to type and funnily enough, no I don't have arthritis yet but give it a year and it'll be here. I use my left hand FOR EVERYTHING
bigfella777
says...
9:37am Tue 24 Apr 12
One of my favourite speeches by the great Margaret Thatcher,only people who have morals and can actually feel guilt can understand this, who the hell do people think they are that I can just continually have my wages deducted every month just to go into their back pocket,its me and others like me that pay for all these bums and I have had enough of it.
In 3rd world countries people just have to get on with it.
rightway
says...
11:14am Tue 24 Apr 12
bigfella777 wrote:Not only did Thatcher make great speeches (then again so did Stalin and Hitler), she was also very good at putting the hard working people of this country on the dole.
I think, one of the tragedies in which many of the benefits we give, which were meant to reassure people that if they were sick or ill there was a safety net and there was help, that many of the benefits which were meant to help people who were unfortunate—" It is all right. We joined together and we have these insurance schemes to look after it" . That was the objective, but somehow there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people:"All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!" but when people come and say:"But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!" You say:"Look" It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!" One of my favourite speeches by the great Margaret Thatcher,only people who have morals and can actually feel guilt can understand this, who the hell do people think they are that I can just continually have my wages deducted every month just to go into their back pocket,its me and others like me that pay for all these bums and I have had enough of it. In 3rd world countries people just have to get on with it.
The sooner she and Beelzebub are reunited the better.
chunky_lover
says...
11:27am Tue 24 Apr 12
loosehead
says...
11:42am Tue 24 Apr 12
rightway wrote:Funny my friends lost their jobs due to the power cuts & some during the miners strikes these were all due to Union activity.
bigfella777 wrote:Not only did Thatcher make great speeches (then again so did Stalin and Hitler), she was also very good at putting the hard working people of this country on the dole.
I think, one of the tragedies in which many of the benefits we give, which were meant to reassure people that if they were sick or ill there was a safety net and there was help, that many of the benefits which were meant to help people who were unfortunate—" It is all right. We joined together and we have these insurance schemes to look after it" . That was the objective, but somehow there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people:"All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!" but when people come and say:"But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!" You say:"Look" It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!" One of my favourite speeches by the great Margaret Thatcher,only people who have morals and can actually feel guilt can understand this, who the hell do people think they are that I can just continually have my wages deducted every month just to go into their back pocket,its me and others like me that pay for all these bums and I have had enough of it. In 3rd world countries people just have to get on with it.
The sooner she and Beelzebub are reunited the better.
Leylands where strikes happened constantly even though it was owned by us was financially bankrupt yet still they went on strike.
Companies left in their droves through Union Activity so come on don't just blame Maggie.
Also when Manufacturing was going abroad Brown said that was old industry & we needed to invest in It & the City.
Brown also allowed 3million+ Eastern Europeans in & you only have to look at the figures to see what a mistake that was ( 2.75million unemployed 3+million immigrants) you don't have to be racists to see that mistake.
You had Mandelson ( unelected) brokering a deal with Kraft to buy Cadburies with our money he said he had their word they wouldn't go ahead with the Polish factory they would keep the work here But he didn't get it in writing or as part of the loan condition & what have Kraft done ?
Shut Bristol & opened Poland who's to blame for unemployment?
Sumofitall
says...
1:37pm Tue 24 Apr 12
I for one have paid over the years in excess of £40k a year tax ,and if someone is not well enough to work be it because of progressive illness or otherwise i will leave it to people who are medically inclined to work this out .
I do not however believe any computer program has the ability to judge the effect illness has on a humans ability to function .Most people with progressive illnesses and not ones that are short lived ,live a life in a hell that no ordinary person could live in as it slowly consumes them ,and to sit at your mundane jobs paying your measily tax efforts to the country ,and victimise them is outrageous .
Stories of people who fought their illnesses ,those people are lucky enough to have come out the other end ,not because they were strong ,but because probably their symptoms were simply not that bad and allowed them to work .
A headache only becomes a problem if it doesnt go away.
DWP is a disgrace ,always has been .
pod
says...
1:12pm Thu 26 Apr 12
ShakeyWiffles wrote:have read some wonderful inspirational stories this week about people who continue to work and live active lives in spite of horrendous injuries.
All of you bullying me do NOT EFFING KNOW ME ffs, My condition constantly changes. It's the tinitus and insomnia that NEVER EVER F**KING WILL. I AM TRYING TO WRITE, BUILDING UP THE STRENGTH IN MY ARM, BUT WHENEVER I GET CLOSE TO BEING ABLE TO WORK AGAIN, SOMETHING HAPPENS WITH MY WALKING WHICH SETS ME BACK ANOTHER FREAKING YEAR. PACK YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS S*1T IN. I'm 28, my DEATH occurred when I was 23 and I'm ONLY JUST trying to get back to work. I need my parents with me because I haven't got a clue what happened 5 minutes ago. 7 years - yeah, that's like yesterday. 5 minutes ago? Not a clue But do you really think 5 years out of work and the fact that I'm not abe to do the jobs I did before will entice me to a potential employer? I have a CV appointment on Wednesday so don't try and act like I'm a shirker. I get f*** all a month. I'm on ESA. Do you know what that stands for? EMPLOYMENT AND SUPPORT ALLOWANCE.
As for you Daily Echo. Feel bloody ashamed. I notice there wasn't a journalist willing to put his name to this drivel! Do you see what you've done? Set all these holier than thou "people" on someone for putting THE OTHER side across. Expect a FORMAL complaint from me.
P.S. whether or not my conputer skills are alright, this took me AN HOUR to type and funnily enough, no I don't have arthritis yet but give it a year and it'll be here. I use my left hand FOR EVERYTHING
There is always someone worse off than yourself and self pity is not good for you or others around you.
You say you have poor short term memory, I have been diagonosed with early onset progressive brain problems (cannot still bring myself to use the word). It takes me ages to write anything, it would be easy not to bother and easy to give up work and grisle, but, frankly, sh*t happens, you just have to get on with it.
Just another reader says...
6:13pm Sun 22 Apr 12