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3:17pm Monday 5th December 2011 in News Review
It’s set to be one of the biggest ever football policing operations in Hampshire as police prepare to use the controversial ‘coach bubble’ tactic to get Southampton fans to this month’s clash with rivals Pompey. But is this approach heavy-handed – or a necessity to keep fans safe? Here, both sides have their say.
Supt Rick Burrows explains why he is in favour of the bubble plan
I am a huge football fan.
Growing up in Manchester, you followed one of two teams.
Terrace culture – the passion, the excitement and the banter – was a huge part of my life. It still is.
But I’m also a police officer, indeed the one responsible for the delivery of the policing operation for the two Portsmouth and Southampton derbies this season.
While I still hold football culture dear, I have different priorities – primarily the safety and security of the fans, the stewards, my officers and the wider public.
We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel.
I have policed all the derby fixtures between Portsmouth and Southampton in the past 27 years and understand their significance and the passions they generate.
I have also seen the damaged properties and the injuries to innocent members of the public, fans, stewards and my officers caused as a direct result of crowd disorder.
Despite the decline of football disorder from the peak of the 1980s, I do not see with the local derby any lessening of the levels of intent or sheer dislike of the opposing fans, from that small group of people who enjoy and seek disorder – just look at the websites, videos and social network comments to see how hateful some people really are.
The police and the clubs would not apply the “bubble” unless they genuinely felt that the safety and security of the majority of fans at these fixtures was put at risk.
History demonstrates that these fixtures will have a high likelihood of crowd disorder, specifically targeted at away fans entering and leaving the host city. The coach bubble ensures they can be brought in safely. It’s not an easier option – it’s the safest option. While I would dearly love not to do it, I have seen too much violence, too much damage and too many injuries to not apply what is a simple tactic that has safety at its heart.
Lifelong supporter Steve Grant says why he thinks the bubble treats fans like second-class citizens.
Freedom of movement is my main gripe with the “bubble” restrictions.
I’m a 28-yearold adult who has attended more than 500 Saints games, home and away.
I travel independently to games which allows me the relative freedom of choosing how I travel and how much I pay to do so.
For the Pompey game, my original plan was to get a train direct from Croydon, where I live, to Fratton, and then to walk to the ground from there.
Cheap, simple and effortless.
I don’t wear colours to games, so it would be easy to blend into the crowd walking to Fratton Park.
Instead I’m being forced to travel down on the Saturday (for which I originally had other social plans), and then herded onto a cramped double-decker bus which clearly isn’t costing the club £12 a seat to provide.
All of the likely routes into Portsmouth provide plenty of ambush points, which means a convoy of 50-odd coaches will simply be sitting ducks waiting to be fired upon with whatever the locals can gather.
From my research, the process of “kettling” (a more common title for the bubble) is illegal without the “immediate” threat of widespread public disorder.
Considering we have been given two months’ notice, I fail to see how that in any way applies here.
The police rely on the unlikelihood of anyone having the means or effort to challenge it through a civil court case.
Hopefully someone will end that complacency soon.
Personally I’m tired of football fans being treated like second-class citizens.
Comments(63)
radders69uk
says...
3:43pm Mon 5 Dec 11
St Retford
says...
3:46pm Mon 5 Dec 11
St Retford
says...
3:50pm Mon 5 Dec 11
St John Smythe
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4:01pm Mon 5 Dec 11
St.Yorkie
says...
4:05pm Mon 5 Dec 11
St Retford wrote:Not a nice thought but I agree. Then again in my time of being a Saints fan in Portsmouth (in the past) - they are just so bitter!
Plus, I think that by keeping fans apart like this you'll actually pre-empt a lot of violence by making it one tribe against a faceless opponent. It's a lot easier to throw a bottle at a coach than it is to shove one in the face of someone you can see.
SaintsBTGOG
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4:07pm Mon 5 Dec 11
Strasbourg Saint
says...
4:13pm Mon 5 Dec 11
Strasbourg Saint
says...
4:15pm Mon 5 Dec 11
SaintsBTGOG wrote:That!
I think the whole thing has been a total disgrace. SFC should of told the club to poke it. The police have dicatated the whole thing right down to who is allowed a ticket! Totally scandalous that those who already had a ticket where allowed more. We have played each other several times in the last ten years. On just two occasions was their notable trouble. That being due to the incompetence of the police to do the basics. I think we should of at least had FREE travel like Newcastle/Sunderland get, which is voluntary. Rick Burrows just seems to be on one big pr ego trip.
Strasbourg Saint
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4:20pm Mon 5 Dec 11
k.hodgkins
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4:21pm Mon 5 Dec 11
Lucius Curtis
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4:34pm Mon 5 Dec 11
City Final
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5:00pm Mon 5 Dec 11
SaintsBTGOG
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5:01pm Mon 5 Dec 11
WECOMING4U
says...
5:15pm Mon 5 Dec 11
SaintsBTGOG wrote:Totally agree, the man has had 27 years to get it right, often with long gaps in between fixtures to plan his men and women! So what happens last time we met p****y ? people are sent to prison for throwing stones and shaking fences!
To try and justify this bubble by using events unrelated to crowd disorder is farcical. Burrows really should be considering his position as football police controller. He failed to organise the basics outside St Marys last year. He failed to do the obvious outside Fratton in 2004.
dellish
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5:20pm Mon 5 Dec 11
1-4inyourownbackyard
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5:34pm Mon 5 Dec 11
mark5
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5:38pm Mon 5 Dec 11
One Heart....One Vision
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5:58pm Mon 5 Dec 11
costa gaz
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6:00pm Mon 5 Dec 11
mike08
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6:34pm Mon 5 Dec 11
The Watcher
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6:42pm Mon 5 Dec 11
billythesaint
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6:55pm Mon 5 Dec 11
IanRRR
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7:20pm Mon 5 Dec 11
billythesaint wrote:Safety glass? All vehicles have safety glass, but as we can all see from events on the A12 in Essex, it wont stop lumps of concrete going straight through! I hardly think the coach operators are going to install bullet proof windows for one trip each way!
Let me get this straight, Burrows is voicing concerns about his officers being injured but you're driving 50 coaches full of Saints fans through Pompey with a police escort? Who do you think is going to suffer the most injuries when the coaches come under attack? The fans will be relatively safe, provided the coaches have some sort of safety glass, but the Old Bill are going to be very busy indeed.
M1chael
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7:24pm Mon 5 Dec 11
slugger
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7:34pm Mon 5 Dec 11
M1chael wrote:spot on !
I am a Sunderland supporter who lives closer to Sid James' than the Stadium of Light, so I always travel to derby matches on my own, rather than in the buses which the club organises. I never have trouble doing that. However, at present it does depend on away supporters remaining in the stadium until the home supporters have been dispersed. Surely, in the long term, police have got to police actual disorder and deal with actual incidents, prosecuting people who commit crimes, rather than restricting the liberty of the law abiding majority.
worried of n e hampshire
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7:47pm Mon 5 Dec 11
SaintsBTGOG
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8:28pm Mon 5 Dec 11
Paul Lucas
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8:42pm Mon 5 Dec 11
Pigeon Street
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8:42pm Mon 5 Dec 11
SaintsBTGOG wrote:I agree and think this attention seeking police officer should be held accountable for the ridiculous comments he makes in the above article, i have a mate who is a Liverpool fan who was at Hillsborough the day of the disaster and showed him this earlier, he was disgusted that it has been used by PC Burrows to his justification to do a bubble trip for saints v pompey, if the echo have contacts with Burrows it would be great to push him to respond to some of the comments on here, apologise, and even resign!!!
I think fans shouldnt just let this pass and actually complain to the Police authority regarding Burrows comments. You can email professional.standar ds@hampshire.pnn.pol ice.uk or http://www.ipcc.gov. uk/en/Pages/your_com plaint_.aspx Make sure you highlight that you are complaining about Supt Rick Burrows of Hampshire Police. His comments in the Daily Echo 3rd December 2011 and online (this url)
Bunman
says...
9:31pm Mon 5 Dec 11
Pompey72
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12:49am Tue 6 Dec 11
rob the saint in NZ
says...
1:40am Tue 6 Dec 11
Pompey72 wrote:Fair play to you mate for a well reasoned sensible post.
Primarily an abuse of human rights. Secondly, an abhorrent 'police state' decision made without consultation to either party that effectively, misguidedly, assumes that all football fans are hooligans, intent on trouble, disregarding the majority of supporters who are law abiding citizens that want to watch their team play their local rivals without cause for problem. Nothing less than prejudice. A crime in itself? With no regard to where fans arrive from. I actually wished that Saints fans effectively en masse stuck two fingers up to this disgusting infringement of rights, and not one fan bought a coach ticket/match ticket to the game at Fratton Park. Appalling. We al deserve to be treated as civil humans by Hampshire Constabulary. It is purely they, not our clubs, that are 'inciting' trouble now, by herding supporters in a nonsensicle way to each others' grounds in a way that will target more than ever to the ignoramus, the travelling fan, so that they can inexcusably impart their pathetic hatred upon a coach. Driven by an unwitting, undeserving man driving a vehicle, upon a deluded whim of a Chief Constable. Hang your head in shame whoever you are. Football supporters deserve better than this. I shall actively promote the non-attendance of Pompey fans at St. Mary's on 17th April, as an affront to our basic human rights. Enjoy your season, some great football that must be great to watch...but I hope you lose on the 18th. A perfectly law abiding Pompey fan that thinks this decision is deplorable.
Gossie.
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8:17am Tue 6 Dec 11
MGRA
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8:38am Tue 6 Dec 11
St.Yorkie
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8:44am Tue 6 Dec 11
Gossie.
says...
9:01am Tue 6 Dec 11
Gossie. wrote:18th Even
This could be a Bubble that Bursts big time. I drive round Pompey regularly with all my Saints flags and window posters in the car have had no trouble, even parked it in Fratton Park car park, but on the 17th we will be sitting ducks, there is no way all 50 coaches will be able to stay moving, they will come to a stop at sometime, and bang go the windows
seventh-junction
says...
9:11am Tue 6 Dec 11
1-4inyourownbackyard wrote:Tw@t
I think that the convoy will be attacked but at least provide the police with having 'detained' a whole set of fans leaving only one set to deal with. However I foresee a problem arising when trying to get the stains into Fratton having parked some 3500 fans all of whom will be anxious at being held even longer!
That and Pompey's history for aggressive moves towards our rivals will make it hot work for the Police.
The best thing that could happen is a Pompey win, anything else will have the locals baying for blood!
MGRA
says...
9:13am Tue 6 Dec 11
St.Yorkie wrote:and then those decent ones would be arrested and charged by the police... what I find incredible is that the football leagues and the FA don't work to root out yobs from the game. Football in the UK above non league status should be a members only set-up. You have to apply for membership and you don't get it if you have convictions within the last 5 years for violence. If you are ever caught on CCTV using threatening behaviour then your membership is withdrawn for 5 years. If you are ever seen committing assault then its a life ban. Forget the police, the FA/clubs/league can sort this out but they have not the mental ability and dexterity to.
I recall several holidays when I spotted a Pompey shirt in a restaurant or bar. Usually out of colours I'd start a conversation and then drop in I was a "Scummer" - never had a problem. Then on match days in colours I remember a group of 3-lads in a bar in Fuerta Ventura - as good as gold! Still can't understand why this is such a big deal...but then again who would have thought Yeovil fans would have got done in/outside The King Alfred?
There is an unsavoury element that follows every club - but I'm a great believer that if one individual was set on by either set of fans - the decent ones would jump in and sort it out...that's what being a true fan is all about.
seventh-junction
says...
9:14am Tue 6 Dec 11
k.hodgkins wrote:Good post
Pompey Supporter here. I have a lot of good friends that are Sints supporters and I enjoy some very good banter between us. I feel it is a shame that the police feel they need to go to such draconian measures to apparently keep the peace.
The strangest thing is if a saints supporter does not live in the city then they can not go to the game unless they travel to souhampton first even if it means driving past fratton park to get there.
Good rivalry is great pure hatred is just so wrong,
I expect the same measures will be in place for the return match, I for one will not be going, I do not enjoy the atmoshere of these games, I will however be going to the Brighton game, wrere the rivalry is less intense.
seventh-junction
says...
9:15am Tue 6 Dec 11
Pompey72 wrote:good post
Primarily an abuse of human rights. Secondly, an abhorrent 'police state' decision made without consultation to either party that effectively, misguidedly, assumes that all football fans are hooligans, intent on trouble, disregarding the majority of supporters who are law abiding citizens that want to watch their team play their local rivals without cause for problem. Nothing less than prejudice. A crime in itself? With no regard to where fans arrive from. I actually wished that Saints fans effectively en masse stuck two fingers up to this disgusting infringement of rights, and not one fan bought a coach ticket/match ticket to the game at Fratton Park. Appalling. We al deserve to be treated as civil humans by Hampshire Constabulary. It is purely they, not our clubs, that are 'inciting' trouble now, by herding supporters in a nonsensicle way to each others' grounds in a way that will target more than ever to the ignoramus, the travelling fan, so that they can inexcusably impart their pathetic hatred upon a coach. Driven by an unwitting, undeserving man driving a vehicle, upon a deluded whim of a Chief Constable. Hang your head in shame whoever you are. Football supporters deserve better than this. I shall actively promote the non-attendance of Pompey fans at St. Mary's on 17th April, as an affront to our basic human rights. Enjoy your season, some great football that must be great to watch...but I hope you lose on the 18th. A perfectly law abiding Pompey fan that thinks this decision is deplorable.
City Final
says...
9:59am Tue 6 Dec 11
Pigeon Street
says...
10:17am Tue 6 Dec 11
mbetts
says...
11:06am Tue 6 Dec 11
St Retford
says...
11:35am Tue 6 Dec 11
Pompey72 wrote:I agree with every word, apart from the bit near the end. Do you know, this whole bubble debacle might inadvertently achieve the impossible and bring Saints and Pompey fans closer together, all unified against idiocy from above.
Primarily an abuse of human rights. Secondly, an abhorrent 'police state' decision made without consultation to either party that effectively, misguidedly, assumes that all football fans are hooligans, intent on trouble, disregarding the majority of supporters who are law abiding citizens that want to watch their team play their local rivals without cause for problem. Nothing less than prejudice. A crime in itself? With no regard to where fans arrive from. I actually wished that Saints fans effectively en masse stuck two fingers up to this disgusting infringement of rights, and not one fan bought a coach ticket/match ticket to the game at Fratton Park. Appalling. We al deserve to be treated as civil humans by Hampshire Constabulary. It is purely they, not our clubs, that are 'inciting' trouble now, by herding supporters in a nonsensicle way to each others' grounds in a way that will target more than ever to the ignoramus, the travelling fan, so that they can inexcusably impart their pathetic hatred upon a coach. Driven by an unwitting, undeserving man driving a vehicle, upon a deluded whim of a Chief Constable. Hang your head in shame whoever you are. Football supporters deserve better than this. I shall actively promote the non-attendance of Pompey fans at St. Mary's on 17th April, as an affront to our basic human rights. Enjoy your season, some great football that must be great to watch...but I hope you lose on the 18th. A perfectly law abiding Pompey fan that thinks this decision is deplorable.
Costa Baz
says...
11:41am Tue 6 Dec 11
St Retford
says...
11:59am Tue 6 Dec 11
Strasbourg Saint
says...
12:33pm Tue 6 Dec 11
St Retford wrote:Was going to post much the same.
Pompey72 wrote: Primarily an abuse of human rights. Secondly, an abhorrent 'police state' decision made without consultation to either party that effectively, misguidedly, assumes that all football fans are hooligans, intent on trouble, disregarding the majority of supporters who are law abiding citizens that want to watch their team play their local rivals without cause for problem. Nothing less than prejudice. A crime in itself? With no regard to where fans arrive from. I actually wished that Saints fans effectively en masse stuck two fingers up to this disgusting infringement of rights, and not one fan bought a coach ticket/match ticket to the game at Fratton Park. Appalling. We al deserve to be treated as civil humans by Hampshire Constabulary. It is purely they, not our clubs, that are 'inciting' trouble now, by herding supporters in a nonsensicle way to each others' grounds in a way that will target more than ever to the ignoramus, the travelling fan, so that they can inexcusably impart their pathetic hatred upon a coach. Driven by an unwitting, undeserving man driving a vehicle, upon a deluded whim of a Chief Constable. Hang your head in shame whoever you are. Football supporters deserve better than this. I shall actively promote the non-attendance of Pompey fans at St. Mary's on 17th April, as an affront to our basic human rights. Enjoy your season, some great football that must be great to watch...but I hope you lose on the 18th. A perfectly law abiding Pompey fan that thinks this decision is deplorable.I agree with every word, apart from the bit near the end. Do you know, this whole bubble debacle might inadvertently achieve the impossible and bring Saints and Pompey fans closer together, all unified against idiocy from above.
Strasbourg Saint
says...
12:43pm Tue 6 Dec 11
St Retford wrote:I'm told they use the bubble over here on the continent. Someone told me it was like this when OM plays PSG (a fixture known for violence). That said, I've no idea what an OM fan living in Paris would do. It's a long way between France's two biggest cities (Lyon aside).
Does this bubble happen at any other derby in the country? And why are they called derbies anyway, given there's only one team in Derby?
bigfella777
says...
1:02pm Tue 6 Dec 11
RedArmy1
says...
1:50pm Tue 6 Dec 11
costa gaz
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4:44pm Tue 6 Dec 11
CrouchEndReg
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7:39pm Tue 6 Dec 11
dockboy
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7:56pm Tue 6 Dec 11
Strasbourg Saint
says...
10:35pm Tue 6 Dec 11
CrouchEndReg wrote:Like it, CrouchEnd. You do realise that, just like the game on Sunday week, NOTHING but a win in the darts match will do!
I for one will be submitting a complaint about Burrows comments regarding Hillsborough,Ibrox & Bradford. All 3 dreadful incidents had NOTHING to do with football hooligans. I just shows the guy's ignorance that he thinks any tragady connected to football is caused in some way by hooligans. Hillsborough was caused by criminal negligence by the police-why were there empty pens next to the one were they all died? Have the police ever apologised - NO. Anyway rant over but this kind of dictatorship makes my blood boil! I'll be travelling down from London for the match dispite this rediculous ruling. I work with a Poopy fan who's going and London Saints are having their annual Pool & Darts match against London Skates next Tuesday in the City as a warm up (better not let Burrows know where - he'll probably ban it) the're a good bunch, we have played them over the last 3 years (and won every time of course!!) There won't be any trouble, just a good p.ss up, lots of banter and of course us lifting the trophy again! I wanted to go to the match with Pompey Tony who runs the London Supporters Club and Sarah le Skate from work but can't because of this stupid rule. But we will be meeting back at Waterloo after the game to kick each others heads in (not really!) we'll have a few beers and wind each other up about the result(hopefully it will be me winding them up) anyway must finish-off up the Kipper to watch Chelsea get beat(hopefully!) Cheers
ruddy
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10:55pm Tue 6 Dec 11
CrouchEndReg
says...
11:01pm Tue 6 Dec 11
St.Yorkie
says...
10:34am Wed 7 Dec 11
ShakeyWiffles
says...
7:35pm Thu 8 Dec 11
dockboy wrote:WUM
Act like animals, be treated like animals
PM0289
says...
12:38am Fri 9 Dec 11
PM0289
says...
12:39am Fri 9 Dec 11
Pompey72
says...
7:22am Mon 12 Dec 11
PM0289 wrote:That solution is as idiotic and ill-conceived as Burrows. I don't think a single person for one second would suggest complete removal of policing and you've clearly missed the point. The subject singularly being discussed is the appalling use of 'kettling', 'herding', 'bubbling' call it what you will, to transport thousands of law-abiding football supporters to watch a football match, in an insane, prejudiced, insensitive way. Innocent until proven guilty?
So you people that are moaning its over the top.....let's take all the police and safety measures away thats been put in place......and watch you moan and slate the police after that there weren't enough to protect you when it kicked off and that 'your rights' were breached because you weren't looked after......
Pompey72
says...
7:22am Mon 12 Dec 11
PM0289 wrote:That solution is as idiotic and ill-conceived as Burrows. I don't think a single person for one second would suggest complete removal of policing and you've clearly missed the point. The subject singularly being discussed is the appalling use of 'kettling', 'herding', 'bubbling' call it what you will, to transport thousands of law-abiding football supporters to watch a football match, in an insane, prejudiced, insensitive way. Innocent until proven guilty?
So you people that are moaning its over the top.....let's take all the police and safety measures away thats been put in place......and watch you moan and slate the police after that there weren't enough to protect you when it kicked off and that 'your rights' were breached because you weren't looked after......
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St.Yorkie says...
3:35pm Mon 5 Dec 11
I went to Portsmouth Poly, I worked at MSDS & Pall Europe - it's a farce to assume there will be trouble...although last time we went there and lost there was a riot - what does that tell you? I just hope the thousands of the best supporters in the world are herded to SMS in the same way...after all they will be made very welcome!