Male midwife hits out at breastfeeding group ban

Male midwive hits out at breastfeed group ban

Male midwive hits out at breastfeed group ban

First published in Health

A MALE trainee midwife claims he was barred from attending a breastfeeding drop-in session in Southampton – because he is a man.

Student Chris Butt made the claims after being told some new mums are “sensitive” to men being present at women-only sessions.

Last night bosses at the National Childbirth Trust said the 30-year-old was instantly offered the chance to attend alternative classes with more than one room and where dads were also invited.

And one Southampton breastfeeding counsellor said she actively supported male partners of new mums to come to her classes.

Mr Butt, who is one of just 132 male midwives in the UK, made his feelings known in an article for Midwives, the magazine of the Royal College of Midwives.

He wrote: “I didn’t believe for one minute that I would be turned away from breastfeeding groups.

“Do the facilitators of such clinics think I practise midwifery in some magical way where I don’t see intimate parts of women’s bodies? Do they think I stand behind a screen as a baby’s head is crowning, shouting out advice on when to breathe?

The Bournemouth University student added: “I wonder how many women who attend drop-in breastfeeding clinics have ever been asked if they mind a male student being present. Not many, would be my prediction.”

Last night it was not clear which drop-in session in Southampton was under the spotlight.

Southampton NCT breastfeeding counsellor Joanna Daniels said when Mr Butt had enquired about attending, he had been offered the chance to join a class in Botley – but did not attend.

She added that the Southampton drop-in only involved one room and trainees were supported as much as possible.

She said: “I love men coming to the breastfeeding classes and normally when I teach breastfeeding classes, all the dads are there.

“We have to think about mothers’ feelings. We are dealing with people who are often struggling and it is a big thing for them. I think we will always respect mothers’ feelings.”

Belinda Phipps, chief executive of NCT, the UK’s largest charity for parents, said she was “disappointed” the student had not followed up on alternative offers.

She added “We want breastfeeding to be as normal as reading the newspaper, so normally partners do attend support sessions. We are also committed to supporting the development of health professionals.

“However, women who seek breastfeeding support are often feeling particularly vulnerable and some may feel uncomfortable with a male presence, so we also offer women-only sessions for those who want this.

“On this occasion, when a male student midwife wanted to visit a womenonly group, we offered him a number of alternative options and did all we could to support him in furthering his professional development.”

Comments (31)

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10:01am Mon 8 Oct 12

eurogordi says...

25 years ago a male midwife at the Princess Anne Hospital in Southampton was involved in the delivery of my son. Neither my wife nor myself were particularly concerned about this, because the midwife was a professional doing his job. It was no different to my wife seeing a male GP at the time.

The National Childbirth Trust is completely wrong to deny a trainee (male) midwife access at a breastfeeding clinic. I am sure the new mothers would have not cared whether the midwife was male or female during the birthing process, so it appears to be a total over reaction on the part of NCT.
25 years ago a male midwife at the Princess Anne Hospital in Southampton was involved in the delivery of my son. Neither my wife nor myself were particularly concerned about this, because the midwife was a professional doing his job. It was no different to my wife seeing a male GP at the time. The National Childbirth Trust is completely wrong to deny a trainee (male) midwife access at a breastfeeding clinic. I am sure the new mothers would have not cared whether the midwife was male or female during the birthing process, so it appears to be a total over reaction on the part of NCT. eurogordi
  • Score: 1

10:02am Mon 8 Oct 12

BenjiWinsor says...

Oh for goodness sake man, stop moaning. Women pay their money to the NCT for their advice and support and if they want to have a woman only advice session then they should be allowed to - they are paying after all!
I wonder why alternative sessions were declined, I suspect he wanted to take the opportunity for a good moan.
He's not the sort of midwife I would want, whatever gender, I would want one that respected my feelings and decisions.
Oh for goodness sake man, stop moaning. Women pay their money to the NCT for their advice and support and if they want to have a woman only advice session then they should be allowed to - they are paying after all! I wonder why alternative sessions were declined, I suspect he wanted to take the opportunity for a good moan. He's not the sort of midwife I would want, whatever gender, I would want one that respected my feelings and decisions. BenjiWinsor
  • Score: -1

10:06am Mon 8 Oct 12

Mr sheep says...

giggity giggity giigity
giggity giggity giigity Mr sheep
  • Score: 0

10:10am Mon 8 Oct 12

Linesman says...

So much for the sex discrimination act.

In many cases it appears to be a 'one way street.' Works OK when a female feels that she is discriminated against because of her sex, but I cannot remember any cases where a male has complained and won.
So much for the sex discrimination act. In many cases it appears to be a 'one way street.' Works OK when a female feels that she is discriminated against because of her sex, but I cannot remember any cases where a male has complained and won. Linesman
  • Score: 1

10:28am Mon 8 Oct 12

Mr sheep says...

Linesman wrote:
So much for the sex discrimination act.

In many cases it appears to be a 'one way street.' Works OK when a female feels that she is discriminated against because of her sex, but I cannot remember any cases where a male has complained and won.
yep totaly agree I know chris and he is a very profetional person ! he helped me with questions I couldnt ask (too embarresed ) he politly told me
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: So much for the sex discrimination act. In many cases it appears to be a 'one way street.' Works OK when a female feels that she is discriminated against because of her sex, but I cannot remember any cases where a male has complained and won.[/p][/quote]yep totaly agree I know chris and he is a very profetional person ! he helped me with questions I couldnt ask (too embarresed ) he politly told me Mr sheep
  • Score: 0

10:43am Mon 8 Oct 12

LeeB1900 says...

My sister is due her baby and I asker how she felt 'NO WAY' would she want a man (even though he's a male midwife) looking at her while doing this. Yet.... my Mum had us all by c section and each surgeon was a man very clearly seeing much more than a boob. Leading gynea consultants are mainly male too which opens up (excuse the pun not intended) a new argument.... How would us men feel abou a lady changing an engine in our car.... I have to admit Id probably frown so this story really takes us back to male v female occupations and old fashioned views actually still being very current. Id certainly like to be amale midwife ☺(sorry - just trying to have a giggle on a rainy Monday morning) .... Does it really this midwife is a guy.... no.... as long as he is competent in his job!
My sister is due her baby and I asker how she felt 'NO WAY' would she want a man (even though he's a male midwife) looking at her while doing this. Yet.... my Mum had us all by c section and each surgeon was a man very clearly seeing much more than a boob. Leading gynea consultants are mainly male too which opens up (excuse the pun not intended) a new argument.... How would us men feel abou a lady changing an engine in our car.... I have to admit Id probably frown so this story really takes us back to male v female occupations and old fashioned views actually still being very current. Id certainly like to be amale midwife ☺(sorry - just trying to have a giggle on a rainy Monday morning) .... Does it really this midwife is a guy.... no.... as long as he is competent in his job! LeeB1900
  • Score: 0

10:49am Mon 8 Oct 12

LeeB1900 says...

sorry - more to say...... I wonder if the centre in questions is really aimed at just females attending hence why this midwife was asked not to. Why odsenthe just accept this decision here and attend the clincis where Dads can go with the mums-to-be and he could actually be the midwife the dads talk to. With all the '''politically correct'' stuff in place - we will always live in a nation where people struggle to accept something different and male midwives really are not that common.
sorry - more to say...... I wonder if the centre in questions is really aimed at just females attending hence why this midwife was asked not to. Why odsenthe just accept this decision here and attend the clincis where Dads can go with the mums-to-be and he could actually be the midwife the dads talk to. With all the '''politically correct'' stuff in place - we will always live in a nation where people struggle to accept something different and male midwives really are not that common. LeeB1900
  • Score: 0

10:53am Mon 8 Oct 12

Portswoodfoke says...

Absolutely disgusting sexual discrimination, there are loads of male gynaecologists but no one seems to care then...

On a personal note, I believe we had this guy (unless southampton has two male midwifes, which considering the rarity seems unlikely) for one of our pre-natal parent classes and he was fantastic. Really positive, really professional and would be more than happy for him to attend our child's birth.
Absolutely disgusting sexual discrimination, there are loads of male gynaecologists but no one seems to care then... On a personal note, I believe we had this guy (unless southampton has two male midwifes, which considering the rarity seems unlikely) for one of our pre-natal parent classes and he was fantastic. Really positive, really professional and would be more than happy for him to attend our child's birth. Portswoodfoke
  • Score: 0

10:56am Mon 8 Oct 12

roofspace says...

Women like to whinge all the time about things like this. They conveniently forget that most nurses are female but you NEVER here men whingeing.when they have to get their kit off or the family jewels out. Before anybody says it's different for men - NO IT ISN'T !!
Women like to whinge all the time about things like this. They conveniently forget that most nurses are female but you NEVER here men whingeing.when they have to get their kit off or the family jewels out. Before anybody says it's different for men - NO IT ISN'T !! roofspace
  • Score: 0

11:07am Mon 8 Oct 12

missdee says...

This student was invited to attend a number of other breast feeding sessions, so I don't see the problem.

Sometimes women have issues with breast feeding. It is something that can be responsible for all sorts of negative emotions if for whatever reason the woman is unable to do it. Women only sessions are about making women as feel comfortable as possible with breast feeding and helping them dealing with any problems they may face. Why should women not be allowed to have women only sessions if that is what they want?
This student was invited to attend a number of other breast feeding sessions, so I don't see the problem. Sometimes women have issues with breast feeding. It is something that can be responsible for all sorts of negative emotions if for whatever reason the woman is unable to do it. Women only sessions are about making women as feel comfortable as possible with breast feeding and helping them dealing with any problems they may face. Why should women not be allowed to have women only sessions if that is what they want? missdee
  • Score: 0

11:20am Mon 8 Oct 12

MGRA says...

BenjiWinsor wrote:
Oh for goodness sake man, stop moaning. Women pay their money to the NCT for their advice and support and if they want to have a woman only advice session then they should be allowed to - they are paying after all!
I wonder why alternative sessions were declined, I suspect he wanted to take the opportunity for a good moan.
He's not the sort of midwife I would want, whatever gender, I would want one that respected my feelings and decisions.
you are a bigot.
[quote][p][bold]BenjiWinsor[/bold] wrote: Oh for goodness sake man, stop moaning. Women pay their money to the NCT for their advice and support and if they want to have a woman only advice session then they should be allowed to - they are paying after all! I wonder why alternative sessions were declined, I suspect he wanted to take the opportunity for a good moan. He's not the sort of midwife I would want, whatever gender, I would want one that respected my feelings and decisions.[/p][/quote]you are a bigot. MGRA
  • Score: 0

11:21am Mon 8 Oct 12

MGRA says...

so NCT is allowed to practise sexual discrimination !? Hmmmm, I thought that was illegal !?
so NCT is allowed to practise sexual discrimination !? Hmmmm, I thought that was illegal !? MGRA
  • Score: 0

11:23am Mon 8 Oct 12

Barney83 says...

I have nothing against male midwives at all but, I personally do not feel comfortable with other men looking at certain areas of my body even if they are health professionals! I think it should be respected that there are women only groups as some women do feel uncomfortable for personal or religious reasons. I always request a female doctor wherever possible but in an emergency situation I would allow a male doctor/midwife to be present as I wouldn't want any harm to come to me or my child. Each to their own at the end of the day :-)
I have nothing against male midwives at all but, I personally do not feel comfortable with other men looking at certain areas of my body even if they are health professionals! I think it should be respected that there are women only groups as some women do feel uncomfortable for personal or religious reasons. I always request a female doctor wherever possible but in an emergency situation I would allow a male doctor/midwife to be present as I wouldn't want any harm to come to me or my child. Each to their own at the end of the day :-) Barney83
  • Score: 0

11:31am Mon 8 Oct 12

headless chicken! says...

I can see both sides of the argument but he should have understood, as a trainee midwife, that some women have problems and stuggle with breastfeeding, and would only want the comfort of other women around them. Some may have religous reasons. Personally I have had my share of children and a male midwife would not have been a problem.
I can see both sides of the argument but he should have understood, as a trainee midwife, that some women have problems and stuggle with breastfeeding, and would only want the comfort of other women around them. Some may have religous reasons. Personally I have had my share of children and a male midwife would not have been a problem. headless chicken!
  • Score: 0

11:31am Mon 8 Oct 12

egghead65 says...

BenjiWinsor wrote:
Oh for goodness sake man, stop moaning. Women pay their money to the NCT for their advice and support and if they want to have a woman only advice session then they should be allowed to - they are paying after all!
I wonder why alternative sessions were declined, I suspect he wanted to take the opportunity for a good moan.
He's not the sort of midwife I would want, whatever gender, I would want one that respected my feelings and decisions.
yeh you tell him.
[quote][p][bold]BenjiWinsor[/bold] wrote: Oh for goodness sake man, stop moaning. Women pay their money to the NCT for their advice and support and if they want to have a woman only advice session then they should be allowed to - they are paying after all! I wonder why alternative sessions were declined, I suspect he wanted to take the opportunity for a good moan. He's not the sort of midwife I would want, whatever gender, I would want one that respected my feelings and decisions.[/p][/quote]yeh you tell him. egghead65
  • Score: 0

11:42am Mon 8 Oct 12

eurogordi says...

It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights!

As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations.

Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff?

Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness.

As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.
It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs. eurogordi
  • Score: 0

12:08pm Mon 8 Oct 12

sotonboy84 says...

eurogordi wrote:
It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.
I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.
[quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.[/p][/quote]I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning. sotonboy84
  • Score: 0

12:09pm Mon 8 Oct 12

ajw1986 says...

roofspace wrote:
Women like to whinge all the time about things like this. They conveniently forget that most nurses are female but you NEVER here men whingeing.when they have to get their kit off or the family jewels out. Before anybody says it's different for men - NO IT ISN'T !!
We like to whinge do we?

On another note, i'm due on wednesday and i'd be more than happy for a male midwife to attend the birth, and also any breastfeeding classes i may attend.
Its not like there aren't male doctors who haven't seen ladies private parts. People can be hypocrites, but ultimately if a woman does not feel comfortable in a vulnerable time in her life then she should have the right to say no to a male. Its sad but unfortunately in this media driven 'perfect body' world we grow up in it makes women worse.
[quote][p][bold]roofspace[/bold] wrote: Women like to whinge all the time about things like this. They conveniently forget that most nurses are female but you NEVER here men whingeing.when they have to get their kit off or the family jewels out. Before anybody says it's different for men - NO IT ISN'T !![/p][/quote]We like to whinge do we? On another note, i'm due on wednesday and i'd be more than happy for a male midwife to attend the birth, and also any breastfeeding classes i may attend. Its not like there aren't male doctors who haven't seen ladies private parts. People can be hypocrites, but ultimately if a woman does not feel comfortable in a vulnerable time in her life then she should have the right to say no to a male. Its sad but unfortunately in this media driven 'perfect body' world we grow up in it makes women worse. ajw1986
  • Score: 0

12:25pm Mon 8 Oct 12

eurogordi says...

sotonboy84 wrote:
eurogordi wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.
I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.
If it's about personal choice, then every man visiting a doctor or being admitted to hospital should have the right to request that any diagnosis, treatment and care is provided by male staff only.

If all men took this course of action the entire medical system would probably collapse, and yet such an approach seems to be no different to what some women are seeking if not demanding!

Let me give an example. When an elderly male relation was in need of personal care in a residential home, he was very embarrassed that female staff were having to undress and bath him. He had no choice, because the home did not empoy any male care staff. So why should women have a choice?

Incidentally, and I am surprised no one else has already mentioned this, would women reject a known-lesbian midwife in the way that they seem to want to reject male midwives?

Gender, sexuality, colour, religion and age do not and should not be part of the argument.
[quote][p][bold]sotonboy84[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.[/p][/quote]I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.[/p][/quote]If it's about personal choice, then every man visiting a doctor or being admitted to hospital should have the right to request that any diagnosis, treatment and care is provided by male staff only. If all men took this course of action the entire medical system would probably collapse, and yet such an approach seems to be no different to what some women are seeking if not demanding! Let me give an example. When an elderly male relation was in need of personal care in a residential home, he was very embarrassed that female staff were having to undress and bath him. He had no choice, because the home did not empoy any male care staff. So why should women have a choice? Incidentally, and I am surprised no one else has already mentioned this, would women reject a known-lesbian midwife in the way that they seem to want to reject male midwives? Gender, sexuality, colour, religion and age do not and should not be part of the argument. eurogordi
  • Score: 0

12:59pm Mon 8 Oct 12

BenjiWinsor says...

So all the women who for whatever reason are embarrassed about breast feeding and would feel awkward in the presense of a male should all just get out the steralisers and bottle feed according to many of you here as they shouldn't be able to ask for women only support!
This is about promotion of breast feeding which is best for baby and for mother (much lower rates of breast cancer in later life) and if this is what is needed to make a woman feel comfortable and help her achieve what is best for them both there should be that option.
As I said before they are paying for this service.
For the record, I would be more than happy to have a male midwife at delivery and/or for breast feeding support but I fully respect the decision and feelings of others that wouldn't. I am able to empathise then with people who feel differently than I do, shame more echo readers can't do the same.
So all the women who for whatever reason are embarrassed about breast feeding and would feel awkward in the presense of a male should all just get out the steralisers and bottle feed according to many of you here as they shouldn't be able to ask for women only support! This is about promotion of breast feeding which is best for baby and for mother (much lower rates of breast cancer in later life) and if this is what is needed to make a woman feel comfortable and help her achieve what is best for them both there should be that option. As I said before they are paying for this service. For the record, I would be more than happy to have a male midwife at delivery and/or for breast feeding support but I fully respect the decision and feelings of others that wouldn't. I am able to empathise then with people who feel differently than I do, shame more echo readers can't do the same. BenjiWinsor
  • Score: 0

1:02pm Mon 8 Oct 12

Raxx says...

The most disturbing thing about to this kind of reaction to a male presence is the subtext that all men are in some way sexual predators, all looking for an opportunity to gawk at ladies' parts. It's part of the ingrained attitude in our society that female=good, peaceful, loving and male=bad, violent, stupid and selfish.

No wonder rates of young male suicide outstrip female by so much, given how little value society places upon them.
The most disturbing thing about to this kind of reaction to a male presence is the subtext that all men are in some way sexual predators, all looking for an opportunity to gawk at ladies' parts. It's part of the ingrained attitude in our society that female=good, peaceful, loving and male=bad, violent, stupid and selfish. No wonder rates of young male suicide outstrip female by so much, given how little value society places upon them. Raxx
  • Score: 0

1:20pm Mon 8 Oct 12

sotonboy84 says...

eurogordi wrote:
sotonboy84 wrote:
eurogordi wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.
I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.
If it's about personal choice, then every man visiting a doctor or being admitted to hospital should have the right to request that any diagnosis, treatment and care is provided by male staff only. If all men took this course of action the entire medical system would probably collapse, and yet such an approach seems to be no different to what some women are seeking if not demanding! Let me give an example. When an elderly male relation was in need of personal care in a residential home, he was very embarrassed that female staff were having to undress and bath him. He had no choice, because the home did not empoy any male care staff. So why should women have a choice? Incidentally, and I am surprised no one else has already mentioned this, would women reject a known-lesbian midwife in the way that they seem to want to reject male midwives? Gender, sexuality, colour, religion and age do not and should not be part of the argument.
I appreciate what you're saying but again, I think you're going a little off track. It never has been an issue that all male patients want to be treated by male staff so this situation has never arisen and I can't see that it ever will. In regard to your male relation in a rest home, this is an unfortunate situation for him to be in if he was uncomfortable but surely this should have formed part of his care planning decision process and chose a home that offered the care he wanted.

Women breastfeeding for the first time, or women that are experiencing problems should and are able to go to classes in a female only environment. There are classes held for women only and classes held for women where men are allowed to attend. Even male partners of these women are not allowed to attend the female only classes. The women have a choice which class to attend and the women in this particular class wanted to be in a female only environment. As a male health care professional in a predominantly female environment, the student must only be too aware by now that not all women are comfortable at men seeing them naked and should respect this. If he doesn't then maybe this isn't the best profession for him to be in. I think this is nothing more than him abusing his minority position as a trainee male midwife to challenge a perfectly sensible and logical service because he couldn't get what he wanted.

The student was offered alternative breast feeding classes where men attended and so was not turned away but decided not to attend and make a fuss instead. There is no issue of sex discrimination and the only wrong doing I can see here is by the student himself by nationally bringing bad publicity to a wonderful and valuable charity. This story is in the national news and was reported in the Daily Mail yesterday.
[quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sotonboy84[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.[/p][/quote]I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.[/p][/quote]If it's about personal choice, then every man visiting a doctor or being admitted to hospital should have the right to request that any diagnosis, treatment and care is provided by male staff only. If all men took this course of action the entire medical system would probably collapse, and yet such an approach seems to be no different to what some women are seeking if not demanding! Let me give an example. When an elderly male relation was in need of personal care in a residential home, he was very embarrassed that female staff were having to undress and bath him. He had no choice, because the home did not empoy any male care staff. So why should women have a choice? Incidentally, and I am surprised no one else has already mentioned this, would women reject a known-lesbian midwife in the way that they seem to want to reject male midwives? Gender, sexuality, colour, religion and age do not and should not be part of the argument.[/p][/quote]I appreciate what you're saying but again, I think you're going a little off track. It never has been an issue that all male patients want to be treated by male staff so this situation has never arisen and I can't see that it ever will. In regard to your male relation in a rest home, this is an unfortunate situation for him to be in if he was uncomfortable but surely this should have formed part of his care planning decision process and chose a home that offered the care he wanted. Women breastfeeding for the first time, or women that are experiencing problems should and are able to go to classes in a female only environment. There are classes held for women only and classes held for women where men are allowed to attend. Even male partners of these women are not allowed to attend the female only classes. The women have a choice which class to attend and the women in this particular class wanted to be in a female only environment. As a male health care professional in a predominantly female environment, the student must only be too aware by now that not all women are comfortable at men seeing them naked and should respect this. If he doesn't then maybe this isn't the best profession for him to be in. I think this is nothing more than him abusing his minority position as a trainee male midwife to challenge a perfectly sensible and logical service because he couldn't get what he wanted. The student was offered alternative breast feeding classes where men attended and so was not turned away but decided not to attend and make a fuss instead. There is no issue of sex discrimination and the only wrong doing I can see here is by the student himself by nationally bringing bad publicity to a wonderful and valuable charity. This story is in the national news and was reported in the Daily Mail yesterday. sotonboy84
  • Score: 0

1:45pm Mon 8 Oct 12

eurogordi says...

sotonboy84 writes "It never has been an issue that all male patients want to be treated by male staff so this situation has never arisen and I can't see that it ever will."

Why not? When I next go to hospital I will insist that I only want to be seen by male staff, particularly if my treatment requires the removal of any clothing. When my request is refused, I will then tell the local and national media!

sotonboy84 continues "In regard to your male relation in a rest home, this is an unfortunate situation for him to be in if he was uncomfortable but surely this should have formed part of his care planning decision process and chose a home that offered the care he wanted."

Care plans cannot be changed over night, even when dependancy increases unexpectedly. Personally I feel the home should have brought in male agency staff when that happened, but as it stands my relation died a few weeks later.

His last conversation with me was about how he felt his one last dignity had been taken from him. Perhaps he should have complained more, perhaps the family should have complained more, but I'm still not convinced those complaints would have been heard and actioned.

Returning to this story, what is good for the goose is good for the gander ... and I still believe he NCT was wrong.
sotonboy84 writes "It never has been an issue that all male patients want to be treated by male staff so this situation has never arisen and I can't see that it ever will." Why not? When I next go to hospital I will insist that I only want to be seen by male staff, particularly if my treatment requires the removal of any clothing. When my request is refused, I will then tell the local and national media! sotonboy84 continues "In regard to your male relation in a rest home, this is an unfortunate situation for him to be in if he was uncomfortable but surely this should have formed part of his care planning decision process and chose a home that offered the care he wanted." Care plans cannot be changed over night, even when dependancy increases unexpectedly. Personally I feel the home should have brought in male agency staff when that happened, but as it stands my relation died a few weeks later. His last conversation with me was about how he felt his one last dignity had been taken from him. Perhaps he should have complained more, perhaps the family should have complained more, but I'm still not convinced those complaints would have been heard and actioned. Returning to this story, what is good for the goose is good for the gander ... and I still believe he NCT was wrong. eurogordi
  • Score: 0

1:46pm Mon 8 Oct 12

Raxx says...

sotonboy84 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
sotonboy84 wrote:
eurogordi wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.
I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.
If it's about personal choice, then every man visiting a doctor or being admitted to hospital should have the right to request that any diagnosis, treatment and care is provided by male staff only. If all men took this course of action the entire medical system would probably collapse, and yet such an approach seems to be no different to what some women are seeking if not demanding! Let me give an example. When an elderly male relation was in need of personal care in a residential home, he was very embarrassed that female staff were having to undress and bath him. He had no choice, because the home did not empoy any male care staff. So why should women have a choice? Incidentally, and I am surprised no one else has already mentioned this, would women reject a known-lesbian midwife in the way that they seem to want to reject male midwives? Gender, sexuality, colour, religion and age do not and should not be part of the argument.
I appreciate what you're saying but again, I think you're going a little off track. It never has been an issue that all male patients want to be treated by male staff so this situation has never arisen and I can't see that it ever will. In regard to your male relation in a rest home, this is an unfortunate situation for him to be in if he was uncomfortable but surely this should have formed part of his care planning decision process and chose a home that offered the care he wanted.

Women breastfeeding for the first time, or women that are experiencing problems should and are able to go to classes in a female only environment. There are classes held for women only and classes held for women where men are allowed to attend. Even male partners of these women are not allowed to attend the female only classes. The women have a choice which class to attend and the women in this particular class wanted to be in a female only environment. As a male health care professional in a predominantly female environment, the student must only be too aware by now that not all women are comfortable at men seeing them naked and should respect this. If he doesn't then maybe this isn't the best profession for him to be in. I think this is nothing more than him abusing his minority position as a trainee male midwife to challenge a perfectly sensible and logical service because he couldn't get what he wanted.

The student was offered alternative breast feeding classes where men attended and so was not turned away but decided not to attend and make a fuss instead. There is no issue of sex discrimination and the only wrong doing I can see here is by the student himself by nationally bringing bad publicity to a wonderful and valuable charity. This story is in the national news and was reported in the Daily Mail yesterday.
So *why* do some women feel uncomfortable with a male medical professional seeing them in a state of undress - despite the fact that they see hundreds of women like that.

what is it about these women's *perception* of men that results in them feeling like that?
[quote][p][bold]sotonboy84[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sotonboy84[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.[/p][/quote]I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.[/p][/quote]If it's about personal choice, then every man visiting a doctor or being admitted to hospital should have the right to request that any diagnosis, treatment and care is provided by male staff only. If all men took this course of action the entire medical system would probably collapse, and yet such an approach seems to be no different to what some women are seeking if not demanding! Let me give an example. When an elderly male relation was in need of personal care in a residential home, he was very embarrassed that female staff were having to undress and bath him. He had no choice, because the home did not empoy any male care staff. So why should women have a choice? Incidentally, and I am surprised no one else has already mentioned this, would women reject a known-lesbian midwife in the way that they seem to want to reject male midwives? Gender, sexuality, colour, religion and age do not and should not be part of the argument.[/p][/quote]I appreciate what you're saying but again, I think you're going a little off track. It never has been an issue that all male patients want to be treated by male staff so this situation has never arisen and I can't see that it ever will. In regard to your male relation in a rest home, this is an unfortunate situation for him to be in if he was uncomfortable but surely this should have formed part of his care planning decision process and chose a home that offered the care he wanted. Women breastfeeding for the first time, or women that are experiencing problems should and are able to go to classes in a female only environment. There are classes held for women only and classes held for women where men are allowed to attend. Even male partners of these women are not allowed to attend the female only classes. The women have a choice which class to attend and the women in this particular class wanted to be in a female only environment. As a male health care professional in a predominantly female environment, the student must only be too aware by now that not all women are comfortable at men seeing them naked and should respect this. If he doesn't then maybe this isn't the best profession for him to be in. I think this is nothing more than him abusing his minority position as a trainee male midwife to challenge a perfectly sensible and logical service because he couldn't get what he wanted. The student was offered alternative breast feeding classes where men attended and so was not turned away but decided not to attend and make a fuss instead. There is no issue of sex discrimination and the only wrong doing I can see here is by the student himself by nationally bringing bad publicity to a wonderful and valuable charity. This story is in the national news and was reported in the Daily Mail yesterday.[/p][/quote]So *why* do some women feel uncomfortable with a male medical professional seeing them in a state of undress - despite the fact that they see hundreds of women like that. what is it about these women's *perception* of men that results in them feeling like that? Raxx
  • Score: 0

2:00pm Mon 8 Oct 12

Niel says...

Linesman wrote:
So much for the sex discrimination act.

In many cases it appears to be a 'one way street.' Works OK when a female feels that she is discriminated against because of her sex, but I cannot remember any cases where a male has complained and won.
The 'nursing' professions are considered to be an exclusively female preserve by a lot of nursing lecturers, any male who strays there had better be better than all the female's in his class, even the most lackluster will be marked better than him, if the experience of several male student nurses I've known is anything to go by!
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: So much for the sex discrimination act. In many cases it appears to be a 'one way street.' Works OK when a female feels that she is discriminated against because of her sex, but I cannot remember any cases where a male has complained and won.[/p][/quote]The 'nursing' professions are considered to be an exclusively female preserve by a lot of nursing lecturers, any male who strays there had better be better than all the female's in his class, even the most lackluster will be marked better than him, if the experience of several male student nurses I've known is anything to go by! Niel
  • Score: 0

3:35pm Mon 8 Oct 12

sotonboy84 says...

Raxx wrote:
sotonboy84 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
sotonboy84 wrote:
eurogordi wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.
I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.
If it's about personal choice, then every man visiting a doctor or being admitted to hospital should have the right to request that any diagnosis, treatment and care is provided by male staff only. If all men took this course of action the entire medical system would probably collapse, and yet such an approach seems to be no different to what some women are seeking if not demanding! Let me give an example. When an elderly male relation was in need of personal care in a residential home, he was very embarrassed that female staff were having to undress and bath him. He had no choice, because the home did not empoy any male care staff. So why should women have a choice? Incidentally, and I am surprised no one else has already mentioned this, would women reject a known-lesbian midwife in the way that they seem to want to reject male midwives? Gender, sexuality, colour, religion and age do not and should not be part of the argument.
I appreciate what you're saying but again, I think you're going a little off track. It never has been an issue that all male patients want to be treated by male staff so this situation has never arisen and I can't see that it ever will. In regard to your male relation in a rest home, this is an unfortunate situation for him to be in if he was uncomfortable but surely this should have formed part of his care planning decision process and chose a home that offered the care he wanted. Women breastfeeding for the first time, or women that are experiencing problems should and are able to go to classes in a female only environment. There are classes held for women only and classes held for women where men are allowed to attend. Even male partners of these women are not allowed to attend the female only classes. The women have a choice which class to attend and the women in this particular class wanted to be in a female only environment. As a male health care professional in a predominantly female environment, the student must only be too aware by now that not all women are comfortable at men seeing them naked and should respect this. If he doesn't then maybe this isn't the best profession for him to be in. I think this is nothing more than him abusing his minority position as a trainee male midwife to challenge a perfectly sensible and logical service because he couldn't get what he wanted. The student was offered alternative breast feeding classes where men attended and so was not turned away but decided not to attend and make a fuss instead. There is no issue of sex discrimination and the only wrong doing I can see here is by the student himself by nationally bringing bad publicity to a wonderful and valuable charity. This story is in the national news and was reported in the Daily Mail yesterday.
So *why* do some women feel uncomfortable with a male medical professional seeing them in a state of undress - despite the fact that they see hundreds of women like that. what is it about these women's *perception* of men that results in them feeling like that?
That's something you'd have to ask each and every women as I imagine most would have a different reason. For some it may be because they feel more comfortable amongst women who they can relate to when going through what for some, can be a difficult time and for others it may just be a case of modesty. The women that have no issue with a male professional or other women's male partner seeing them in a state of undress may well chose to go to the classes where males are permitted. BUT, these women have a choice.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that these women feel these male professionals are perverts and are getting off on seeing them naked but the fact of the matter remains that there are two classes held, one for women only and one that men can attend. Women have a choice which one they attend and it's as simple as that. The student in this story appears to be exploiting his position of being in a minority as a male midwife for no reason other than to cause a fuss. As the story states, when he enquired about the course he was informed that males are not permitted in a women only class and was offered the alternative of attending the mixed class, but he did not attend. This has completely been blown out of all proportion and there is no basis or substance of a complaint or a moan and personally I feel that not only has the student brought bad publicity to a valuable charity but just made himself and his university look a fool.

What next, maybe it's sexual discrimination and maybe some racism and ageism thrown in for good measure because men and women have separate changing rooms in public baths? Shock horror! God forbid there also being family changing rooms which both sexes can use. And I suppose these men and women that choose to use same sex changing rooms have some hidden agenda to escape the wandering discriminative eyes of the opposite sex? Ahhhhhhhhhhh!
[quote][p][bold]Raxx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sotonboy84[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sotonboy84[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.[/p][/quote]I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.[/p][/quote]If it's about personal choice, then every man visiting a doctor or being admitted to hospital should have the right to request that any diagnosis, treatment and care is provided by male staff only. If all men took this course of action the entire medical system would probably collapse, and yet such an approach seems to be no different to what some women are seeking if not demanding! Let me give an example. When an elderly male relation was in need of personal care in a residential home, he was very embarrassed that female staff were having to undress and bath him. He had no choice, because the home did not empoy any male care staff. So why should women have a choice? Incidentally, and I am surprised no one else has already mentioned this, would women reject a known-lesbian midwife in the way that they seem to want to reject male midwives? Gender, sexuality, colour, religion and age do not and should not be part of the argument.[/p][/quote]I appreciate what you're saying but again, I think you're going a little off track. It never has been an issue that all male patients want to be treated by male staff so this situation has never arisen and I can't see that it ever will. In regard to your male relation in a rest home, this is an unfortunate situation for him to be in if he was uncomfortable but surely this should have formed part of his care planning decision process and chose a home that offered the care he wanted. Women breastfeeding for the first time, or women that are experiencing problems should and are able to go to classes in a female only environment. There are classes held for women only and classes held for women where men are allowed to attend. Even male partners of these women are not allowed to attend the female only classes. The women have a choice which class to attend and the women in this particular class wanted to be in a female only environment. As a male health care professional in a predominantly female environment, the student must only be too aware by now that not all women are comfortable at men seeing them naked and should respect this. If he doesn't then maybe this isn't the best profession for him to be in. I think this is nothing more than him abusing his minority position as a trainee male midwife to challenge a perfectly sensible and logical service because he couldn't get what he wanted. The student was offered alternative breast feeding classes where men attended and so was not turned away but decided not to attend and make a fuss instead. There is no issue of sex discrimination and the only wrong doing I can see here is by the student himself by nationally bringing bad publicity to a wonderful and valuable charity. This story is in the national news and was reported in the Daily Mail yesterday.[/p][/quote]So *why* do some women feel uncomfortable with a male medical professional seeing them in a state of undress - despite the fact that they see hundreds of women like that. what is it about these women's *perception* of men that results in them feeling like that?[/p][/quote]That's something you'd have to ask each and every women as I imagine most would have a different reason. For some it may be because they feel more comfortable amongst women who they can relate to when going through what for some, can be a difficult time and for others it may just be a case of modesty. The women that have no issue with a male professional or other women's male partner seeing them in a state of undress may well chose to go to the classes where males are permitted. BUT, these women have a choice. I'm not suggesting for a moment that these women feel these male professionals are perverts and are getting off on seeing them naked but the fact of the matter remains that there are two classes held, one for women only and one that men can attend. Women have a choice which one they attend and it's as simple as that. The student in this story appears to be exploiting his position of being in a minority as a male midwife for no reason other than to cause a fuss. As the story states, when he enquired about the course he was informed that males are not permitted in a women only class and was offered the alternative of attending the mixed class, but he did not attend. This has completely been blown out of all proportion and there is no basis or substance of a complaint or a moan and personally I feel that not only has the student brought bad publicity to a valuable charity but just made himself and his university look a fool. What next, maybe it's sexual discrimination and maybe some racism and ageism thrown in for good measure because men and women have separate changing rooms in public baths? Shock horror! God forbid there also being family changing rooms which both sexes can use. And I suppose these men and women that choose to use same sex changing rooms have some hidden agenda to escape the wandering discriminative eyes of the opposite sex? Ahhhhhhhhhhh! sotonboy84
  • Score: 0

5:52pm Mon 8 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

sotonboy84 wrote:
Raxx wrote:
sotonboy84 wrote:
eurogordi wrote:
sotonboy84 wrote:
eurogordi wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.
I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.
If it's about personal choice, then every man visiting a doctor or being admitted to hospital should have the right to request that any diagnosis, treatment and care is provided by male staff only. If all men took this course of action the entire medical system would probably collapse, and yet such an approach seems to be no different to what some women are seeking if not demanding! Let me give an example. When an elderly male relation was in need of personal care in a residential home, he was very embarrassed that female staff were having to undress and bath him. He had no choice, because the home did not empoy any male care staff. So why should women have a choice? Incidentally, and I am surprised no one else has already mentioned this, would women reject a known-lesbian midwife in the way that they seem to want to reject male midwives? Gender, sexuality, colour, religion and age do not and should not be part of the argument.
I appreciate what you're saying but again, I think you're going a little off track. It never has been an issue that all male patients want to be treated by male staff so this situation has never arisen and I can't see that it ever will. In regard to your male relation in a rest home, this is an unfortunate situation for him to be in if he was uncomfortable but surely this should have formed part of his care planning decision process and chose a home that offered the care he wanted. Women breastfeeding for the first time, or women that are experiencing problems should and are able to go to classes in a female only environment. There are classes held for women only and classes held for women where men are allowed to attend. Even male partners of these women are not allowed to attend the female only classes. The women have a choice which class to attend and the women in this particular class wanted to be in a female only environment. As a male health care professional in a predominantly female environment, the student must only be too aware by now that not all women are comfortable at men seeing them naked and should respect this. If he doesn't then maybe this isn't the best profession for him to be in. I think this is nothing more than him abusing his minority position as a trainee male midwife to challenge a perfectly sensible and logical service because he couldn't get what he wanted. The student was offered alternative breast feeding classes where men attended and so was not turned away but decided not to attend and make a fuss instead. There is no issue of sex discrimination and the only wrong doing I can see here is by the student himself by nationally bringing bad publicity to a wonderful and valuable charity. This story is in the national news and was reported in the Daily Mail yesterday.
So *why* do some women feel uncomfortable with a male medical professional seeing them in a state of undress - despite the fact that they see hundreds of women like that. what is it about these women's *perception* of men that results in them feeling like that?
That's something you'd have to ask each and every women as I imagine most would have a different reason. For some it may be because they feel more comfortable amongst women who they can relate to when going through what for some, can be a difficult time and for others it may just be a case of modesty. The women that have no issue with a male professional or other women's male partner seeing them in a state of undress may well chose to go to the classes where males are permitted. BUT, these women have a choice.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that these women feel these male professionals are perverts and are getting off on seeing them naked but the fact of the matter remains that there are two classes held, one for women only and one that men can attend. Women have a choice which one they attend and it's as simple as that. The student in this story appears to be exploiting his position of being in a minority as a male midwife for no reason other than to cause a fuss. As the story states, when he enquired about the course he was informed that males are not permitted in a women only class and was offered the alternative of attending the mixed class, but he did not attend. This has completely been blown out of all proportion and there is no basis or substance of a complaint or a moan and personally I feel that not only has the student brought bad publicity to a valuable charity but just made himself and his university look a fool.

What next, maybe it's sexual discrimination and maybe some racism and ageism thrown in for good measure because men and women have separate changing rooms in public baths? Shock horror! God forbid there also being family changing rooms which both sexes can use. And I suppose these men and women that choose to use same sex changing rooms have some hidden agenda to escape the wandering discriminative eyes of the opposite sex? Ahhhhhhhhhhh!
Well no, it's not "as simple as that". If these women have a choice, it's because they want one, and there has to be a motivation for that desire.

I'm suggesting that the motivation is very likely to be related to society's deep-rooted portrayal as men as base animals in thrall to their sexual instincts. The flip side of which is the portrayal of women as innately chaste and virtuous - which historically has denied women the right to sexual expression. These assumptions to a disservice to both men and women, and I'm not convinced that they should be pandered to.
[quote][p][bold]sotonboy84[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Raxx[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sotonboy84[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sotonboy84[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]eurogordi[/bold] wrote: It seems to me that it is the women responding to this story who are displaying intolerance and sexism. The same women who probably believe in equal rights! As a man, I am now registered with a female GP following the retirement of my male GP a few years ago. I have no hesitation in speaking to her about intimate matters, which have also included examinations. Likewise, when I have been in hospital I have only once been treated by a male nurse. What would Southampton Hospital Trust have done if I had insisted on being nursed 24/7 by a male member of staff? Medical staff, male and female, are professionally trained and adher to a range of practice codes and ethics. Some of the views being expressed on here are extremely outdated and, before anyone says it, this has nothing to do with political correctness. As a well know medical programme often says "there's no shame, we're all the same". Why can't women get over it and recognise that male medical staff are not at all interested in female boobs or bits. They are only interested in treating your medical needs.[/p][/quote]I think you're actually going a little off track here and expressing quite a narrow minded view. Some women may have an issue with men seeing certain areas of their bodies but the bigger issue is some women are struggling and feeling vulnerable in an already difficult situation whether that be upsetting problems they're experiencing with breastfeeding or just not comfortable with their body. They may just feel more comfortable in a female only setting and with likeminded people that can fully appreciate their concerns. It's nothing to do with political correctness or sexual discrimination but down to personal choice and the comfort of these women. The group was a woman only group and as soon as the student enquired about the course, he was offered an alternative class where he could have learnt the same skills but chose not to attend. So I really don't see what his issue is other than to moan about something for the sake of moaning.[/p][/quote]If it's about personal choice, then every man visiting a doctor or being admitted to hospital should have the right to request that any diagnosis, treatment and care is provided by male staff only. If all men took this course of action the entire medical system would probably collapse, and yet such an approach seems to be no different to what some women are seeking if not demanding! Let me give an example. When an elderly male relation was in need of personal care in a residential home, he was very embarrassed that female staff were having to undress and bath him. He had no choice, because the home did not empoy any male care staff. So why should women have a choice? Incidentally, and I am surprised no one else has already mentioned this, would women reject a known-lesbian midwife in the way that they seem to want to reject male midwives? Gender, sexuality, colour, religion and age do not and should not be part of the argument.[/p][/quote]I appreciate what you're saying but again, I think you're going a little off track. It never has been an issue that all male patients want to be treated by male staff so this situation has never arisen and I can't see that it ever will. In regard to your male relation in a rest home, this is an unfortunate situation for him to be in if he was uncomfortable but surely this should have formed part of his care planning decision process and chose a home that offered the care he wanted. Women breastfeeding for the first time, or women that are experiencing problems should and are able to go to classes in a female only environment. There are classes held for women only and classes held for women where men are allowed to attend. Even male partners of these women are not allowed to attend the female only classes. The women have a choice which class to attend and the women in this particular class wanted to be in a female only environment. As a male health care professional in a predominantly female environment, the student must only be too aware by now that not all women are comfortable at men seeing them naked and should respect this. If he doesn't then maybe this isn't the best profession for him to be in. I think this is nothing more than him abusing his minority position as a trainee male midwife to challenge a perfectly sensible and logical service because he couldn't get what he wanted. The student was offered alternative breast feeding classes where men attended and so was not turned away but decided not to attend and make a fuss instead. There is no issue of sex discrimination and the only wrong doing I can see here is by the student himself by nationally bringing bad publicity to a wonderful and valuable charity. This story is in the national news and was reported in the Daily Mail yesterday.[/p][/quote]So *why* do some women feel uncomfortable with a male medical professional seeing them in a state of undress - despite the fact that they see hundreds of women like that. what is it about these women's *perception* of men that results in them feeling like that?[/p][/quote]That's something you'd have to ask each and every women as I imagine most would have a different reason. For some it may be because they feel more comfortable amongst women who they can relate to when going through what for some, can be a difficult time and for others it may just be a case of modesty. The women that have no issue with a male professional or other women's male partner seeing them in a state of undress may well chose to go to the classes where males are permitted. BUT, these women have a choice. I'm not suggesting for a moment that these women feel these male professionals are perverts and are getting off on seeing them naked but the fact of the matter remains that there are two classes held, one for women only and one that men can attend. Women have a choice which one they attend and it's as simple as that. The student in this story appears to be exploiting his position of being in a minority as a male midwife for no reason other than to cause a fuss. As the story states, when he enquired about the course he was informed that males are not permitted in a women only class and was offered the alternative of attending the mixed class, but he did not attend. This has completely been blown out of all proportion and there is no basis or substance of a complaint or a moan and personally I feel that not only has the student brought bad publicity to a valuable charity but just made himself and his university look a fool. What next, maybe it's sexual discrimination and maybe some racism and ageism thrown in for good measure because men and women have separate changing rooms in public baths? Shock horror! God forbid there also being family changing rooms which both sexes can use. And I suppose these men and women that choose to use same sex changing rooms have some hidden agenda to escape the wandering discriminative eyes of the opposite sex? Ahhhhhhhhhhh![/p][/quote]Well no, it's not "as simple as that". If these women have a choice, it's because they want one, and there has to be a motivation for that desire. I'm suggesting that the motivation is very likely to be related to society's deep-rooted portrayal as men as base animals in thrall to their sexual instincts. The flip side of which is the portrayal of women as innately chaste and virtuous - which historically has denied women the right to sexual expression. These assumptions to a disservice to both men and women, and I'm not convinced that they should be pandered to. cantthinkofone
  • Score: 0

5:57pm Mon 8 Oct 12

cantthinkofone says...

Couple of typos above, sorry. Still readable though I think.
Couple of typos above, sorry. Still readable though I think. cantthinkofone
  • Score: 0

12:17am Tue 9 Oct 12

andysaints007 says...

BenjiWinsor wrote:
Oh for goodness sake man, stop moaning. Women pay their money to the NCT for their advice and support and if they want to have a woman only advice session then they should be allowed to - they are paying after all!
I wonder why alternative sessions were declined, I suspect he wanted to take the opportunity for a good moan.
He's not the sort of midwife I would want, whatever gender, I would want one that respected my feelings and decisions.
Unfortunately for you someone has to want to sh*g you first, so you will never know !!
[quote][p][bold]BenjiWinsor[/bold] wrote: Oh for goodness sake man, stop moaning. Women pay their money to the NCT for their advice and support and if they want to have a woman only advice session then they should be allowed to - they are paying after all! I wonder why alternative sessions were declined, I suspect he wanted to take the opportunity for a good moan. He's not the sort of midwife I would want, whatever gender, I would want one that respected my feelings and decisions.[/p][/quote]Unfortunately for you someone has to want to sh*g you first, so you will never know !! andysaints007
  • Score: 0

11:10am Tue 9 Oct 12

headless chicken! says...

I did not know that he had gone to the big papers with his story. To me he now sounds like a spoilt brat stamping his feet because he can't get his own way. He should know as a trainee midwife that it is the mothers wishes that are to be followed not the midwife (unless there is a risk to either mother or baby). So why did he not except this as the mothers wishes. And why did he not go to the mixed class, where I'm sure he would have been of much more help for the dads there.
I did not know that he had gone to the big papers with his story. To me he now sounds like a spoilt brat stamping his feet because he can't get his own way. He should know as a trainee midwife that it is the mothers wishes that are to be followed not the midwife (unless there is a risk to either mother or baby). So why did he not except this as the mothers wishes. And why did he not go to the mixed class, where I'm sure he would have been of much more help for the dads there. headless chicken!
  • Score: 0

11:22am Tue 9 Oct 12

sotonboy84 says...

headless chicken! wrote:
I did not know that he had gone to the big papers with his story. To me he now sounds like a spoilt brat stamping his feet because he can't get his own way. He should know as a trainee midwife that it is the mothers wishes that are to be followed not the midwife (unless there is a risk to either mother or baby). So why did he not except this as the mothers wishes. And why did he not go to the mixed class, where I'm sure he would have been of much more help for the dads there.
Well exactly. He obviously doesn't respect that a mother's wishes and wellbeing are more important that his own stubborn wants. Rather worrying considering the occupation he has chosen. And why didn't he go to the mixed classes? Because he went to the national newspapers instead! The Echo reported this story the day after it was in the national news.

He has brought nothing but bad publicity to the charity and his university and portrayed himself as an idiot and doesn't seem to possess any professionalism or skills required to be a midwife.
[quote][p][bold]headless chicken![/bold] wrote: I did not know that he had gone to the big papers with his story. To me he now sounds like a spoilt brat stamping his feet because he can't get his own way. He should know as a trainee midwife that it is the mothers wishes that are to be followed not the midwife (unless there is a risk to either mother or baby). So why did he not except this as the mothers wishes. And why did he not go to the mixed class, where I'm sure he would have been of much more help for the dads there.[/p][/quote]Well exactly. He obviously doesn't respect that a mother's wishes and wellbeing are more important that his own stubborn wants. Rather worrying considering the occupation he has chosen. And why didn't he go to the mixed classes? Because he went to the national newspapers instead! The Echo reported this story the day after it was in the national news. He has brought nothing but bad publicity to the charity and his university and portrayed himself as an idiot and doesn't seem to possess any professionalism or skills required to be a midwife. sotonboy84
  • Score: 0

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