Prime Minister tackled over Ford's £10m taxpayer hand out

Daily Echo: David Cameron David Cameron

THE CONTROVERSY surrounding a public handout to Ford has reached the very top of government after David Cameron was challenged in the House of Commons.

The Prime Minister said "these issues were discussed" when asked about the motor giant's bombshell plans to shut the plant in Southampton, at the loss of 500 jobs.

This puts him at odds with Business Secretary Vince Cable, who insisted he had not been aware of the company's plans when the grant was rubber-stamped, aimed at creating jobs in Essex.

Ford announced the closure of the Swaythling plant with the loss of 500 jobs, less than a week later.

Speaking during Prime Minister's Questions, Alan Whitehead, the Labour MP for Southampton Test, said: "When did the PM become aware of the plans to close Ford plants at Southampton and Dagenham, and was he aware of those plans when his government awarded a large sum of money from the Regional Growth Fund to that company just a few days earlier?"

Mr Cameron replied: "Obviously these issues were discussed, and we work very closely with all the automotive companies in the United Kingdom."

He added: "What happened at Ford in terms of Southampton was clearly very regrettable, but we must do everything we can to help those people back to work."

Speaking afterwards, Mr Whitehead said Mr Cameron had not wanted the government to seem ill-informed, so had said that discussions had taken place.

He said: "Vince Cable has already said to the Echo that the government had no idea this was happening.

"Who is correct is rather important. The real answer would probably be that the Prime Minister wasn't briefed."

It was the second time the Prime Minister had been challenged over the Ford announcement during the half-hour questions session.

Earlier he had backed Southampton's "compelling" case to be awarded new powers and funding controls under the city deal bid being prepared with Portsmouth.

Responding to a question from Romsey and Southampton North MP Caroline Nokes, he said: "I do think it's particularly compelling that we make sure Southampton has a city deal. I understand they are on the list.

"Ultimately while the news from Ford was very disappointing, it was a black spot in what was otherwise very strong performance by the British automotive industry, and I know the Business Secretary will be working very closely with Southampton City Council to do everything we can to help people find jobs."

For all the latest on the Ford closure including video of the Vince Cable interview click here

Comments (44)

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1:09pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Over the Edge says...

Living proof David CaMoron is out of touch, Vince Cable and Fords both the Government wasn't informed of closures before awarding £10 million to Fords, yet CaMoron says they were......Who are we to believe?

I wonder if the local Tories and supporters will calling for an inquiry into CaMoron mis-leading people, like they did with Richard Williams
Living proof David CaMoron is out of touch, Vince Cable and Fords both the Government wasn't informed of closures before awarding £10 million to Fords, yet CaMoron says they were......Who are we to believe? I wonder if the local Tories and supporters will calling for an inquiry into CaMoron mis-leading people, like they did with Richard Williams Over the Edge

1:14pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Lone Ranger. says...

Quote:- "If the Prime Minister signed off on this policy, then it raises very serious questions over his commitment to growth both in Southampton and across the region.”
.
One question that it doesnt raise is:- " Is Slippery Dave and his coalition government fit for purpose" ..... We already know the answer ...... NO
Quote:- "If the Prime Minister signed off on this policy, then it raises very serious questions over his commitment to growth both in Southampton and across the region.” . One question that it doesnt raise is:- " Is Slippery Dave and his coalition government fit for purpose" ..... We already know the answer ...... NO Lone Ranger.

1:21pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Shoong says...

Over the Edge wrote:
Living proof David CaMoron is out of touch, Vince Cable and Fords both the Government wasn't informed of closures before awarding £10 million to Fords, yet CaMoron says they were......Who are we to believe?

I wonder if the local Tories and supporters will calling for an inquiry into CaMoron mis-leading people, like they did with Richard Williams
Is 'discussing the issues' the same as 'we were told it was being closed'?

It is a vague answer and he should have done better.

An inquiry? That's not going to change anything. Who would pay for that?
[quote][p][bold]Over the Edge[/bold] wrote: Living proof David CaMoron is out of touch, Vince Cable and Fords both the Government wasn't informed of closures before awarding £10 million to Fords, yet CaMoron says they were......Who are we to believe? I wonder if the local Tories and supporters will calling for an inquiry into CaMoron mis-leading people, like they did with Richard Williams[/p][/quote]Is 'discussing the issues' the same as 'we were told it was being closed'? It is a vague answer and he should have done better. An inquiry? That's not going to change anything. Who would pay for that? Shoong

1:43pm Wed 31 Oct 12

arthur dalyrimple says...

maybe the people will wake up with evidence like this that exporting jobs ,importing the huddled masses is a recipe for utter disaster.
maybe the people will wake up with evidence like this that exporting jobs ,importing the huddled masses is a recipe for utter disaster. arthur dalyrimple

1:45pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Pomerol says...

If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.
If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do. Pomerol

2:20pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Over the Edge says...

When asked when he became aware of the closures?

The Prime Minister said "Obviously these issues were discussed, and we work very closely with all the automotive companies in the United Kingdom."

I'm quite sure they were not discussing the price of chips

Michael Hestletine deny's rubber stamping the Fords deal and says ministers knew about the deal,,,,Cable deny's all knowledge of any closures and Cameron says the Government discussed it with Fords, yet Fords deny telling them,,,,so someone is lying,,,,is it Hestletine,,, Fords and Vince Cable or David Cameron?
When asked when he became aware of the closures? The Prime Minister said "Obviously these issues were discussed, and we work very closely with all the automotive companies in the United Kingdom." I'm quite sure they were not discussing the price of chips Michael Hestletine deny's rubber stamping the Fords deal and says ministers knew about the deal,,,,Cable deny's all knowledge of any closures and Cameron says the Government discussed it with Fords, yet Fords deny telling them,,,,so someone is lying,,,,is it Hestletine,,, Fords and Vince Cable or David Cameron? Over the Edge

2:21pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Over the Edge says...

Shoong wrote:
Over the Edge wrote:
Living proof David CaMoron is out of touch, Vince Cable and Fords both the Government wasn't informed of closures before awarding £10 million to Fords, yet CaMoron says they were......Who are we to believe?

I wonder if the local Tories and supporters will calling for an inquiry into CaMoron mis-leading people, like they did with Richard Williams
Is 'discussing the issues' the same as 'we were told it was being closed'?

It is a vague answer and he should have done better.

An inquiry? That's not going to change anything. Who would pay for that?
When asked when he became aware of the closures?

The Prime Minister said "Obviously these issues were discussed, and we work very closely with all the automotive companies in the United Kingdom."

I'm quite sure they were not discussing the price of chips

Michael Hestletine deny's rubber stamping the Fords deal and says ministers knew about the deal,,,,Cable deny's all knowledge of any closures and Cameron says the Government discussed it with Fords, yet Fords deny telling them,,,,so someone is lying,,,,is it Hestletine,,, Fords and Vince Cable or David Cameron?
[quote][p][bold]Shoong[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Over the Edge[/bold] wrote: Living proof David CaMoron is out of touch, Vince Cable and Fords both the Government wasn't informed of closures before awarding £10 million to Fords, yet CaMoron says they were......Who are we to believe? I wonder if the local Tories and supporters will calling for an inquiry into CaMoron mis-leading people, like they did with Richard Williams[/p][/quote]Is 'discussing the issues' the same as 'we were told it was being closed'? It is a vague answer and he should have done better. An inquiry? That's not going to change anything. Who would pay for that?[/p][/quote]When asked when he became aware of the closures? The Prime Minister said "Obviously these issues were discussed, and we work very closely with all the automotive companies in the United Kingdom." I'm quite sure they were not discussing the price of chips Michael Hestletine deny's rubber stamping the Fords deal and says ministers knew about the deal,,,,Cable deny's all knowledge of any closures and Cameron says the Government discussed it with Fords, yet Fords deny telling them,,,,so someone is lying,,,,is it Hestletine,,, Fords and Vince Cable or David Cameron? Over the Edge

2:24pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Huey says...

word words words, all meaningless mr cameron.
you haven't got a clue, as this whole debacle has shown
word words words, all meaningless mr cameron. you haven't got a clue, as this whole debacle has shown Huey

2:34pm Wed 31 Oct 12

commonsence says...

They all lying to save their own backsides , cant trust any of them. Did Fords get the 10 million , if so PAY IT BACK rotters.
They all lying to save their own backsides , cant trust any of them. Did Fords get the 10 million , if so PAY IT BACK rotters. commonsence

2:39pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Pomerol says...

The facts are this: Alan Whitehead asked about the factories at Southampton and Dagenham, and government money given to Ford from the 'Regional Growth Funds'. Southampton is (I understand) NOT eligible for RGF money - Dagenham is. It can be assumed therefore that the money was intended for Dagenham, not Southampton. By linking RGF funding to Southampton Alan Whitehead is showing he is either confused, or is playing politics.

I repeat my earlier point - the politicians need to focus on getting money and investment. The review of these other issues can wait surely?
The facts are this: Alan Whitehead asked about the factories at Southampton and Dagenham, and government money given to Ford from the 'Regional Growth Funds'. Southampton is (I understand) NOT eligible for RGF money - Dagenham is. It can be assumed therefore that the money was intended for Dagenham, not Southampton. By linking RGF funding to Southampton Alan Whitehead is showing he is either confused, or is playing politics. I repeat my earlier point - the politicians need to focus on getting money and investment. The review of these other issues can wait surely? Pomerol

2:43pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Linesman says...

Obviously another case of the Coalition government's right hand not knowing what the left hand is up to.

Cameron Claims to know what is going on and Cable Claims he did not.

Clegg? Probably unsure whether or not he knew.

The Westminster Pantomime Season appears to be in full swing.
Obviously another case of the Coalition government's right hand not knowing what the left hand is up to. Cameron Claims to know what is going on and Cable Claims he did not. Clegg? Probably unsure whether or not he knew. The Westminster Pantomime Season appears to be in full swing. Linesman

2:50pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Linesman says...

Pomerol wrote:
If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.
"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment."

Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'?

Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant?

Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?
[quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.[/p][/quote]"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment." Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'? Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant? Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action? Linesman

2:51pm Wed 31 Oct 12

loosehead says...

Once again Two hardly heard of Politicians trying to take the attention of a useless Labour council by asking about a grant which actually ensures employment for two other plants & not at the Expense of Southampton?
The left wing on these posts can try to use this as a reason why people should vote for an inept council but the truth is even if a Government knew of Fords decision ( which Fords said they didn't)to not give this grant would have seen the closure of three plants not one.
Take the grant back & wait & see Fords reactions & see those plants close.
Do Whitehead & denham not realise this? Of course they do but this isn't nothing about keeping Swaythling open as they know no matter what happens now or even then Swaythlings shutting now Do they really want to see two more plants shutting?
Or should we concentrate say on attracting an Eastern Car manufacturer?
Once again Two hardly heard of Politicians trying to take the attention of a useless Labour council by asking about a grant which actually ensures employment for two other plants & not at the Expense of Southampton? The left wing on these posts can try to use this as a reason why people should vote for an inept council but the truth is even if a Government knew of Fords decision ( which Fords said they didn't)to not give this grant would have seen the closure of three plants not one. Take the grant back & wait & see Fords reactions & see those plants close. Do Whitehead & denham not realise this? Of course they do but this isn't nothing about keeping Swaythling open as they know no matter what happens now or even then Swaythlings shutting now Do they really want to see two more plants shutting? Or should we concentrate say on attracting an Eastern Car manufacturer? loosehead

3:00pm Wed 31 Oct 12

loosehead says...

Linesman wrote:
Pomerol wrote:
If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.
"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment."

Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'?

Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant?

Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?
So did not Fords say they never told the Government not count ?
Once the grant was offered what we should stop it & see those other two plants shut ? Is that the socialist way of doing it?
Try being honest here & tell me you never heard or thought that Fords would cease Van production at Swaythling.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.[/p][/quote]"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment." Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'? Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant? Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?[/p][/quote]So did not Fords say they never told the Government not count ? Once the grant was offered what we should stop it & see those other two plants shut ? Is that the socialist way of doing it? Try being honest here & tell me you never heard or thought that Fords would cease Van production at Swaythling. loosehead

3:03pm Wed 31 Oct 12

ohec says...

I thought the money was for the development of future engines specifically, not to just go into a general slush fund in which case it has no bearing on the closure of Southampton.Ok so Southampton has lost out but others will gain job security at least in the short term, who knows had it not been for the £10 million we might have lost more jobs. It really is very sad about the closure but you would have to be pretty naive not to realise that it was only a matter of time before Southampton closed. I just hope that those not directly employed by Ford do not spoil things for those that are.
I thought the money was for the development of future engines specifically, not to just go into a general slush fund in which case it has no bearing on the closure of Southampton.Ok so Southampton has lost out but others will gain job security at least in the short term, who knows had it not been for the £10 million we might have lost more jobs. It really is very sad about the closure but you would have to be pretty naive not to realise that it was only a matter of time before Southampton closed. I just hope that those not directly employed by Ford do not spoil things for those that are. ohec

3:06pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Pomerol says...

Linesman wrote:
Pomerol wrote:
If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.
"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment."

Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'?

Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant?

Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?
Two MPs from Soton asked Cameron questions today. One, from Caroline Nokes, was a question which was seeking funding and investment to create new jobs. The second, Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron.

Which MP has the best interests of the Ford employees at heart - the one saying 'we need money and jobs NOW' or the one splitting hairs over who knew what and when.

Yes I am a tax payer, and yes I live in Soton. Yes I want answers - but at the moment, Caroline Nokes is doing what is right, and Alan Whitehead is not!
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.[/p][/quote]"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment." Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'? Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant? Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?[/p][/quote]Two MPs from Soton asked Cameron questions today. One, from Caroline Nokes, was a question which was seeking funding and investment to create new jobs. The second, Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron. Which MP has the best interests of the Ford employees at heart - the one saying 'we need money and jobs NOW' or the one splitting hairs over who knew what and when. Yes I am a tax payer, and yes I live in Soton. Yes I want answers - but at the moment, Caroline Nokes is doing what is right, and Alan Whitehead is not! Pomerol

3:09pm Wed 31 Oct 12

loosehead says...

Pomerol wrote:
Linesman wrote:
Pomerol wrote:
If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.
"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment."

Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'?

Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant?

Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?
Two MPs from Soton asked Cameron questions today. One, from Caroline Nokes, was a question which was seeking funding and investment to create new jobs. The second, Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron.

Which MP has the best interests of the Ford employees at heart - the one saying 'we need money and jobs NOW' or the one splitting hairs over who knew what and when.

Yes I am a tax payer, and yes I live in Soton. Yes I want answers - but at the moment, Caroline Nokes is doing what is right, and Alan Whitehead is not!
Totally agree with you
[quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.[/p][/quote]"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment." Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'? Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant? Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?[/p][/quote]Two MPs from Soton asked Cameron questions today. One, from Caroline Nokes, was a question which was seeking funding and investment to create new jobs. The second, Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron. Which MP has the best interests of the Ford employees at heart - the one saying 'we need money and jobs NOW' or the one splitting hairs over who knew what and when. Yes I am a tax payer, and yes I live in Soton. Yes I want answers - but at the moment, Caroline Nokes is doing what is right, and Alan Whitehead is not![/p][/quote]Totally agree with you loosehead

3:09pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Pomerol says...

ohec wrote:
I thought the money was for the development of future engines specifically, not to just go into a general slush fund in which case it has no bearing on the closure of Southampton.Ok so Southampton has lost out but others will gain job security at least in the short term, who knows had it not been for the £10 million we might have lost more jobs. It really is very sad about the closure but you would have to be pretty naive not to realise that it was only a matter of time before Southampton closed. I just hope that those not directly employed by Ford do not spoil things for those that are.
Correct - it was to fund the development of green engine technology. At the moment, 33% of all Ford engines globally are made in the UK. That is what this money was intended to support. Southampton was not, as far as I am aware, part of the deal.

Sadly, that seems to have escaped those who wish to conflate the two issues to bash Ford and the Government.
[quote][p][bold]ohec[/bold] wrote: I thought the money was for the development of future engines specifically, not to just go into a general slush fund in which case it has no bearing on the closure of Southampton.Ok so Southampton has lost out but others will gain job security at least in the short term, who knows had it not been for the £10 million we might have lost more jobs. It really is very sad about the closure but you would have to be pretty naive not to realise that it was only a matter of time before Southampton closed. I just hope that those not directly employed by Ford do not spoil things for those that are.[/p][/quote]Correct - it was to fund the development of green engine technology. At the moment, 33% of all Ford engines globally are made in the UK. That is what this money was intended to support. Southampton was not, as far as I am aware, part of the deal. Sadly, that seems to have escaped those who wish to conflate the two issues to bash Ford and the Government. Pomerol

3:19pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Pomerol says...

Sorry to say this, but Caroline Nokes is running rings around the other two MPs, because she is clearly focussed on the bigger picture (jobs, investment and the future) - and is not a Union funded MP concerned more with beating-up Ford than the best interests of the 500 people who have just lost their livelihood.

And she will be a bit of a hero if she manages to get some extra funding - something Mr. Denham and Mr. Whitehead probably won't manage because their interest is tripping up the Government and sticking their tongues out to Ford!
Sorry to say this, but Caroline Nokes is running rings around the other two MPs, because she is clearly focussed on the bigger picture (jobs, investment and the future) - and is not a Union funded MP concerned more with beating-up Ford than the best interests of the 500 people who have just lost their livelihood. And she will be a bit of a hero if she manages to get some extra funding - something Mr. Denham and Mr. Whitehead probably won't manage because their interest is tripping up the Government and sticking their tongues out to Ford! Pomerol

3:23pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Fatty x Ford Worker says...

I went in 92 you lot are getting a big 0.
I went in 92 you lot are getting a big 0. Fatty x Ford Worker

3:27pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Pomerol says...

@linesman. You say "Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?".

How are they prodding the Government over investment and funding? It was Caroline Nokes who tabled the request for the Urgent Debate, who visited ministers last week, and who has asked the PM for more money. The Labour MPs, decent men that that are, have focussed on recrimination and fighting the wrong fight at the wrong time. I would be interested to compare who had had meetings with whom - I bet Caroline Nokes has seen all the ministerial team at BIS whilst the Labour colleagues have probably focussed on the Unions!

What can the Unions do to create new jobs? Nothing.

Sorry - but those MPs who want to focus on who knew what and when are doing the workers a disservice.

It can wait. What matters is Government money NOW!
@linesman. You say "Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?". How are they prodding the Government over investment and funding? It was Caroline Nokes who tabled the request for the Urgent Debate, who visited ministers last week, and who has asked the PM for more money. The Labour MPs, decent men that that are, have focussed on recrimination and fighting the wrong fight at the wrong time. I would be interested to compare who had had meetings with whom - I bet Caroline Nokes has seen all the ministerial team at BIS whilst the Labour colleagues have probably focussed on the Unions! What can the Unions do to create new jobs? Nothing. Sorry - but those MPs who want to focus on who knew what and when are doing the workers a disservice. It can wait. What matters is Government money NOW! Pomerol

3:35pm Wed 31 Oct 12

aldermoorboy says...

When did Whitehead and Denham find out Williams had lied?
Why have they said nothing on this matter?
Are they gutless ?
This shame of Labour just goes on and on.
Get rid of this Labour council asap, 2014 if possible.
When did Whitehead and Denham find out Williams had lied? Why have they said nothing on this matter? Are they gutless ? This shame of Labour just goes on and on. Get rid of this Labour council asap, 2014 if possible. aldermoorboy

3:39pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Linesman says...

Pomerol wrote:
Linesman wrote:
Pomerol wrote:
If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.
"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment."

Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'?

Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant?

Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?
Two MPs from Soton asked Cameron questions today. One, from Caroline Nokes, was a question which was seeking funding and investment to create new jobs. The second, Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron.

Which MP has the best interests of the Ford employees at heart - the one saying 'we need money and jobs NOW' or the one splitting hairs over who knew what and when.

Yes I am a tax payer, and yes I live in Soton. Yes I want answers - but at the moment, Caroline Nokes is doing what is right, and Alan Whitehead is not!
The Ford assembly plant is in Nooky Nokes' constituency, so she should be concerned for seeking funding and investment to create jobs for those that are going to find themselves out of work.

"Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron." How very naughty of him. No Tory MP ever tried to embarrass either Blair of Brown when they were Prime Minister.

You appear blind to the fact that Cameron is saying that he was aware of Ford's proposal to close the Swaything plant, but Vince Cable, the Business Secretary, who should have been aware, claims that he had no knowledge.

Elsewhere, Michael Hesseltine has come out with yet another explanation.

The whole saga gives the appearance of a government that is like an orchestra, where each instrument is playing a different piece of music.
[quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.[/p][/quote]"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment." Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'? Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant? Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?[/p][/quote]Two MPs from Soton asked Cameron questions today. One, from Caroline Nokes, was a question which was seeking funding and investment to create new jobs. The second, Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron. Which MP has the best interests of the Ford employees at heart - the one saying 'we need money and jobs NOW' or the one splitting hairs over who knew what and when. Yes I am a tax payer, and yes I live in Soton. Yes I want answers - but at the moment, Caroline Nokes is doing what is right, and Alan Whitehead is not![/p][/quote]The Ford assembly plant is in Nooky Nokes' constituency, so she should be concerned for seeking funding and investment to create jobs for those that are going to find themselves out of work. "Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron." How very naughty of him. No Tory MP ever tried to embarrass either Blair of Brown when they were Prime Minister. You appear blind to the fact that Cameron is saying that he was aware of Ford's proposal to close the Swaything plant, but Vince Cable, the Business Secretary, who should have been aware, claims that he had no knowledge. Elsewhere, Michael Hesseltine has come out with yet another explanation. The whole saga gives the appearance of a government that is like an orchestra, where each instrument is playing a different piece of music. Linesman

3:48pm Wed 31 Oct 12

localnews says...

Same old red V blue arguement going on yet again,about time you all woke up and realised they're all as bad as each other
Same old red V blue arguement going on yet again,about time you all woke up and realised they're all as bad as each other localnews

3:50pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Pomerol says...

@linesman - just because the plant is in Caroline Nokes' constituency does not absolve the other MPs of their duty to do the right thing and work to get more Government and private sector investment - not least of all as the workers will live in Itchen and Test, plus also Eastleigh and Winchester too!

If Alan Whitehead and John Denham had done their homework, they would know the RGF money given to Ford was for R&D work in Dagenham, and not linked to Soton.

And I am not blind to anything -if Cameron did know, I am sure he would have said so today - but I admit the question needs to be asked - but NOT NOW!!! Bigger fish to fry I think.
@linesman - just because the plant is in Caroline Nokes' constituency does not absolve the other MPs of their duty to do the right thing and work to get more Government and private sector investment - not least of all as the workers will live in Itchen and Test, plus also Eastleigh and Winchester too! If Alan Whitehead and John Denham had done their homework, they would know the RGF money given to Ford was for R&D work in Dagenham, and not linked to Soton. And I am not blind to anything -if Cameron did know, I am sure he would have said so today - but I admit the question needs to be asked - but NOT NOW!!! Bigger fish to fry I think. Pomerol

3:53pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Pomerol says...

localnews wrote:
Same old red V blue arguement going on yet again,about time you all woke up and realised they're all as bad as each other
Actually there were calls on Twitter for the three MPs to work together on this - from the blue one! Seems like she wasn't listened to by the red ones!
[quote][p][bold]localnews[/bold] wrote: Same old red V blue arguement going on yet again,about time you all woke up and realised they're all as bad as each other[/p][/quote]Actually there were calls on Twitter for the three MPs to work together on this - from the blue one! Seems like she wasn't listened to by the red ones! Pomerol

3:58pm Wed 31 Oct 12

freefinker says...

localnews wrote:
Same old red V blue arguement going on yet again,about time you all woke up and realised they're all as bad as each other
.. I agree.
This petty tribalism is so utterly boring.
[quote][p][bold]localnews[/bold] wrote: Same old red V blue arguement going on yet again,about time you all woke up and realised they're all as bad as each other[/p][/quote].. I agree. This petty tribalism is so utterly boring. freefinker

4:27pm Wed 31 Oct 12

st1halo says...

localnews wrote:
Same old red V blue arguement going on yet again,about time you all woke up and realised they're all as bad as each other
EXACTLY!!
And even when they ripped everyone off with their expenses people still voted for them so what do they expect!
[quote][p][bold]localnews[/bold] wrote: Same old red V blue arguement going on yet again,about time you all woke up and realised they're all as bad as each other[/p][/quote]EXACTLY!! And even when they ripped everyone off with their expenses people still voted for them so what do they expect! st1halo

5:39pm Wed 31 Oct 12

mooky9 says...

Linesman wrote:
Pomerol wrote:
Linesman wrote:
Pomerol wrote:
If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.
"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment."

Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'?

Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant?

Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?
Two MPs from Soton asked Cameron questions today. One, from Caroline Nokes, was a question which was seeking funding and investment to create new jobs. The second, Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron.

Which MP has the best interests of the Ford employees at heart - the one saying 'we need money and jobs NOW' or the one splitting hairs over who knew what and when.

Yes I am a tax payer, and yes I live in Soton. Yes I want answers - but at the moment, Caroline Nokes is doing what is right, and Alan Whitehead is not!
The Ford assembly plant is in Nooky Nokes' constituency, so she should be concerned for seeking funding and investment to create jobs for those that are going to find themselves out of work.

"Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron." How very naughty of him. No Tory MP ever tried to embarrass either Blair of Brown when they were Prime Minister.

You appear blind to the fact that Cameron is saying that he was aware of Ford's proposal to close the Swaything plant, but Vince Cable, the Business Secretary, who should have been aware, claims that he had no knowledge.

Elsewhere, Michael Hesseltine has come out with yet another explanation.

The whole saga gives the appearance of a government that is like an orchestra, where each instrument is playing a different piece of music.
Yep shock horror the government is once again making a total balls up about a simple statement, anyone really shocked about that!?
I will bet my house on he fact a labour minister will once again demand yet another independent inquiry into it though, they seem to love them! I also see that you demand answers into the Tory rubbish but are against the need for answers from the council who lied to us all???
Before anyone shouts I have no affiliation to a party they should all be sacked.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: If you are a Ford factory worker, wouldn't you want your MPs to be trying to secure more jobs and investment rather than fighting over something which is done and dusted, can't be changed, and will do nothing to benefit the workers. The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment - that is what they are elected to do.[/p][/quote]"The Labour MPs should stop playing politics and start working to get more inward investment." Do you really believe that trying to find out what the Prime Minister knew is 'Playing Politics'? Assuming you are a tax payer, do you not think it reasonable that MPs, of ALL political persuasion, should want to know why an International company that is relocating to Turkey, should be given a Government Grant? Do you not think that it is the responsibility of the Tory/ LibDem coalition, who are forming the government, to get more inward investment without the need for the Labour MPs to keep prodding them into action?[/p][/quote]Two MPs from Soton asked Cameron questions today. One, from Caroline Nokes, was a question which was seeking funding and investment to create new jobs. The second, Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron. Which MP has the best interests of the Ford employees at heart - the one saying 'we need money and jobs NOW' or the one splitting hairs over who knew what and when. Yes I am a tax payer, and yes I live in Soton. Yes I want answers - but at the moment, Caroline Nokes is doing what is right, and Alan Whitehead is not![/p][/quote]The Ford assembly plant is in Nooky Nokes' constituency, so she should be concerned for seeking funding and investment to create jobs for those that are going to find themselves out of work. "Alan Whitehead, was concerned about trying to embarrass Cameron." How very naughty of him. No Tory MP ever tried to embarrass either Blair of Brown when they were Prime Minister. You appear blind to the fact that Cameron is saying that he was aware of Ford's proposal to close the Swaything plant, but Vince Cable, the Business Secretary, who should have been aware, claims that he had no knowledge. Elsewhere, Michael Hesseltine has come out with yet another explanation. The whole saga gives the appearance of a government that is like an orchestra, where each instrument is playing a different piece of music.[/p][/quote]Yep shock horror the government is once again making a total balls up about a simple statement, anyone really shocked about that!? I will bet my house on he fact a labour minister will once again demand yet another independent inquiry into it though, they seem to love them! I also see that you demand answers into the Tory rubbish but are against the need for answers from the council who lied to us all??? Before anyone shouts I have no affiliation to a party they should all be sacked. mooky9

7:58pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Linesman says...

Pomerol wrote:
The facts are this: Alan Whitehead asked about the factories at Southampton and Dagenham, and government money given to Ford from the 'Regional Growth Funds'. Southampton is (I understand) NOT eligible for RGF money - Dagenham is. It can be assumed therefore that the money was intended for Dagenham, not Southampton. By linking RGF funding to Southampton Alan Whitehead is showing he is either confused, or is playing politics.

I repeat my earlier point - the politicians need to focus on getting money and investment. The review of these other issues can wait surely?
It may have escaped your notice but Fords is the common link not RGF. Whitehead was questioning why the Ford company were given £10m from the RGF when they are reducing their commitment to the UK and making many unemployed.
[quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: The facts are this: Alan Whitehead asked about the factories at Southampton and Dagenham, and government money given to Ford from the 'Regional Growth Funds'. Southampton is (I understand) NOT eligible for RGF money - Dagenham is. It can be assumed therefore that the money was intended for Dagenham, not Southampton. By linking RGF funding to Southampton Alan Whitehead is showing he is either confused, or is playing politics. I repeat my earlier point - the politicians need to focus on getting money and investment. The review of these other issues can wait surely?[/p][/quote]It may have escaped your notice but Fords is the common link not RGF. Whitehead was questioning why the Ford company were given £10m from the RGF when they are reducing their commitment to the UK and making many unemployed. Linesman

8:12pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Linesman says...

If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them?

No! Neither can I.

By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.
If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them? No! Neither can I. By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation. Linesman

9:00pm Wed 31 Oct 12

freefinker says...

Linesman wrote:
If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them?

No! Neither can I.

By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.
.. my dad's bigger than your dad.

.. no he's not.

.. yes he is.

.. etc. ad infinitum.

Why can't you see – Red/Blue, they're both the same.
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them? No! Neither can I. By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.[/p][/quote].. my dad's bigger than your dad. .. no he's not. .. yes he is. .. etc. ad infinitum. Why can't you see – Red/Blue, they're both the same. freefinker

9:02pm Wed 31 Oct 12

derek james says...

not sure who is going to carry on building the transit all the turks must be in england driving taxis or making kebabs
not sure who is going to carry on building the transit all the turks must be in england driving taxis or making kebabs derek james

9:15pm Wed 31 Oct 12

loosehead says...

Linesman wrote:
If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them?

No! Neither can I.

By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.
Sorry but when a thousand =jobs were being lost with many more in suppliers it was Tony Blair,Denham & Whitehead who turned their backs on those workers & a Tory MEP who tried to save our jobs.
I don't smoke & never will but there are many who do & many countries who wanted a certain strength ( TAR) cigarette & we exported to them.
the EU said lower the strength Germany allowed the strength to remain as long as it was exported out of the EU.
Our leader at the time Tony Blair said we can't expect other countries to do something that's unhealthy for them so no you can't export t6hem from here.
The sheep sorry Two MP's from this city wouldn't even reply to our management so shows exactly what they thought of a thousand plus workers.
Caroline Nokes is standing up for her constituents & is trying to get funding to attract new industry here that's the sign of a good MP no matter what colour her party is.
So sorry Linesman it did happen when Blair & Brown were in charge & are you forgetting Martini's?
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them? No! Neither can I. By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.[/p][/quote]Sorry but when a thousand =jobs were being lost with many more in suppliers it was Tony Blair,Denham & Whitehead who turned their backs on those workers & a Tory MEP who tried to save our jobs. I don't smoke & never will but there are many who do & many countries who wanted a certain strength ( TAR) cigarette & we exported to them. the EU said lower the strength Germany allowed the strength to remain as long as it was exported out of the EU. Our leader at the time Tony Blair said we can't expect other countries to do something that's unhealthy for them so no you can't export t6hem from here. The sheep sorry Two MP's from this city wouldn't even reply to our management so shows exactly what they thought of a thousand plus workers. Caroline Nokes is standing up for her constituents & is trying to get funding to attract new industry here that's the sign of a good MP no matter what colour her party is. So sorry Linesman it did happen when Blair & Brown were in charge & are you forgetting Martini's? loosehead

10:52pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Linesman says...

freefinker wrote:
Linesman wrote:
If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them?

No! Neither can I.

By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.
.. my dad's bigger than your dad.

.. no he's not.

.. yes he is.

.. etc. ad infinitum.

Why can't you see – Red/Blue, they're both the same.
Didn't know you knew who your Dad was, and you certainly don't know mine.

The fact that you thing that Red and Blue are both the same indicates that you are colour blind. Thankfully, I am not.
[quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them? No! Neither can I. By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.[/p][/quote].. my dad's bigger than your dad. .. no he's not. .. yes he is. .. etc. ad infinitum. Why can't you see – Red/Blue, they're both the same.[/p][/quote]Didn't know you knew who your Dad was, and you certainly don't know mine. The fact that you thing that Red and Blue are both the same indicates that you are colour blind. Thankfully, I am not. Linesman

11:06pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Linesman says...

loosehead wrote:
Linesman wrote:
If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them?

No! Neither can I.

By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.
Sorry but when a thousand =jobs were being lost with many more in suppliers it was Tony Blair,Denham & Whitehead who turned their backs on those workers & a Tory MEP who tried to save our jobs.
I don't smoke & never will but there are many who do & many countries who wanted a certain strength ( TAR) cigarette & we exported to them.
the EU said lower the strength Germany allowed the strength to remain as long as it was exported out of the EU.
Our leader at the time Tony Blair said we can't expect other countries to do something that's unhealthy for them so no you can't export t6hem from here.
The sheep sorry Two MP's from this city wouldn't even reply to our management so shows exactly what they thought of a thousand plus workers.
Caroline Nokes is standing up for her constituents & is trying to get funding to attract new industry here that's the sign of a good MP no matter what colour her party is.
So sorry Linesman it did happen when Blair & Brown were in charge & are you forgetting Martini's?
No similarity.

BAT moved abroad, like Ford.

Unlike Ford, there was no plant in Dagenham that was working on nicotine free cigarettes, employing considerably fewer than were made redundant Millbrook.

For that reason, there was no £10m grant made to BAT.

If that had happened, I have no doubt that, you would not have been making the same defence of Blair's government that you are doing of Cameron's.


Tories in disarray in the Vote of Confidence tonight.
[quote][p][bold]loosehead[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them? No! Neither can I. By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.[/p][/quote]Sorry but when a thousand =jobs were being lost with many more in suppliers it was Tony Blair,Denham & Whitehead who turned their backs on those workers & a Tory MEP who tried to save our jobs. I don't smoke & never will but there are many who do & many countries who wanted a certain strength ( TAR) cigarette & we exported to them. the EU said lower the strength Germany allowed the strength to remain as long as it was exported out of the EU. Our leader at the time Tony Blair said we can't expect other countries to do something that's unhealthy for them so no you can't export t6hem from here. The sheep sorry Two MP's from this city wouldn't even reply to our management so shows exactly what they thought of a thousand plus workers. Caroline Nokes is standing up for her constituents & is trying to get funding to attract new industry here that's the sign of a good MP no matter what colour her party is. So sorry Linesman it did happen when Blair & Brown were in charge & are you forgetting Martini's?[/p][/quote]No similarity. BAT moved abroad, like Ford. Unlike Ford, there was no plant in Dagenham that was working on nicotine free cigarettes, employing considerably fewer than were made redundant Millbrook. For that reason, there was no £10m grant made to BAT. If that had happened, I have no doubt that, you would not have been making the same defence of Blair's government that you are doing of Cameron's. Tories in disarray in the Vote of Confidence tonight. Linesman

11:07pm Wed 31 Oct 12

IronLady2010 says...

Linesman wrote:
freefinker wrote:
Linesman wrote:
If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them?

No! Neither can I.

By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.
.. my dad's bigger than your dad.

.. no he's not.

.. yes he is.

.. etc. ad infinitum.

Why can't you see – Red/Blue, they're both the same.
Didn't know you knew who your Dad was, and you certainly don't know mine.

The fact that you thing that Red and Blue are both the same indicates that you are colour blind. Thankfully, I am not.
One may be blind the other is stupid ;-)
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]freefinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them? No! Neither can I. By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.[/p][/quote].. my dad's bigger than your dad. .. no he's not. .. yes he is. .. etc. ad infinitum. Why can't you see – Red/Blue, they're both the same.[/p][/quote]Didn't know you knew who your Dad was, and you certainly don't know mine. The fact that you thing that Red and Blue are both the same indicates that you are colour blind. Thankfully, I am not.[/p][/quote]One may be blind the other is stupid ;-) IronLady2010

11:16pm Wed 31 Oct 12

Pomerol says...

Linesman - you're clearly partisan, and you clearly have your facts wrong - not least of all because tonight's vote in Westminster was not on a motion of no condodence, but an amendment tabled by a Tory which Labour supported (against its own previous states position) merely to embarrass the Government - ie partisan politics at the expense of the national interest.

Perhaps you can enlighten me: what evidence do you have that the £10m grant given from a fund to which Southampton is not entitled, designed to fund R&D into a product not produced in Southampton, was in anyway linked to the factory in Southampton?
Linesman - you're clearly partisan, and you clearly have your facts wrong - not least of all because tonight's vote in Westminster was not on a motion of no condodence, but an amendment tabled by a Tory which Labour supported (against its own previous states position) merely to embarrass the Government - ie partisan politics at the expense of the national interest. Perhaps you can enlighten me: what evidence do you have that the £10m grant given from a fund to which Southampton is not entitled, designed to fund R&D into a product not produced in Southampton, was in anyway linked to the factory in Southampton? Pomerol

7:02am Thu 1 Nov 12

loosehead says...

Linesman wrote:
loosehead wrote:
Linesman wrote:
If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them?

No! Neither can I.

By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.
Sorry but when a thousand =jobs were being lost with many more in suppliers it was Tony Blair,Denham & Whitehead who turned their backs on those workers & a Tory MEP who tried to save our jobs.
I don't smoke & never will but there are many who do & many countries who wanted a certain strength ( TAR) cigarette & we exported to them.
the EU said lower the strength Germany allowed the strength to remain as long as it was exported out of the EU.
Our leader at the time Tony Blair said we can't expect other countries to do something that's unhealthy for them so no you can't export t6hem from here.
The sheep sorry Two MP's from this city wouldn't even reply to our management so shows exactly what they thought of a thousand plus workers.
Caroline Nokes is standing up for her constituents & is trying to get funding to attract new industry here that's the sign of a good MP no matter what colour her party is.
So sorry Linesman it did happen when Blair & Brown were in charge & are you forgetting Martini's?
No similarity.

BAT moved abroad, like Ford.

Unlike Ford, there was no plant in Dagenham that was working on nicotine free cigarettes, employing considerably fewer than were made redundant Millbrook.

For that reason, there was no £10m grant made to BAT.

If that had happened, I have no doubt that, you would not have been making the same defence of Blair's government that you are doing of Cameron's.


Tories in disarray in the Vote of Confidence tonight.
Oh! So So wrong! BAT was working on a nicotine free cigarette & only moved abroad because with out it's exports Southampton was no longer viable where as Poland was cheaper to run so could run at a much lower volume.
BAT never once asked for a grant or a subsidy they just asked to be able to produce what the customer wanted & Labour refused to allow them to do this
[quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]loosehead[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them? No! Neither can I. By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.[/p][/quote]Sorry but when a thousand =jobs were being lost with many more in suppliers it was Tony Blair,Denham & Whitehead who turned their backs on those workers & a Tory MEP who tried to save our jobs. I don't smoke & never will but there are many who do & many countries who wanted a certain strength ( TAR) cigarette & we exported to them. the EU said lower the strength Germany allowed the strength to remain as long as it was exported out of the EU. Our leader at the time Tony Blair said we can't expect other countries to do something that's unhealthy for them so no you can't export t6hem from here. The sheep sorry Two MP's from this city wouldn't even reply to our management so shows exactly what they thought of a thousand plus workers. Caroline Nokes is standing up for her constituents & is trying to get funding to attract new industry here that's the sign of a good MP no matter what colour her party is. So sorry Linesman it did happen when Blair & Brown were in charge & are you forgetting Martini's?[/p][/quote]No similarity. BAT moved abroad, like Ford. Unlike Ford, there was no plant in Dagenham that was working on nicotine free cigarettes, employing considerably fewer than were made redundant Millbrook. For that reason, there was no £10m grant made to BAT. If that had happened, I have no doubt that, you would not have been making the same defence of Blair's government that you are doing of Cameron's. Tories in disarray in the Vote of Confidence tonight.[/p][/quote]Oh! So So wrong! BAT was working on a nicotine free cigarette & only moved abroad because with out it's exports Southampton was no longer viable where as Poland was cheaper to run so could run at a much lower volume. BAT never once asked for a grant or a subsidy they just asked to be able to produce what the customer wanted & Labour refused to allow them to do this loosehead

9:29am Thu 1 Nov 12

Linesman says...

Pomerol wrote:
Linesman - you're clearly partisan, and you clearly have your facts wrong - not least of all because tonight's vote in Westminster was not on a motion of no condodence, but an amendment tabled by a Tory which Labour supported (against its own previous states position) merely to embarrass the Government - ie partisan politics at the expense of the national interest.

Perhaps you can enlighten me: what evidence do you have that the £10m grant given from a fund to which Southampton is not entitled, designed to fund R&D into a product not produced in Southampton, was in anyway linked to the factory in Southampton?
I have never heard of a vote of 'no condodence' whatever that may be.

Whatever you may care to call it, it was certainly not a vote of Confidence.

Yes, the amendment was tabled by Tories. As there was a vote on it, and Labour were entitled to vote, are you saying that they should have abstained?

Read what I wrote at 8:12. I have never claimed that the £10m given to Ford Dagenham was not for R&D, I stated that the link between Dagenham and Swaything was Ford not RGF.
[quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: Linesman - you're clearly partisan, and you clearly have your facts wrong - not least of all because tonight's vote in Westminster was not on a motion of no condodence, but an amendment tabled by a Tory which Labour supported (against its own previous states position) merely to embarrass the Government - ie partisan politics at the expense of the national interest. Perhaps you can enlighten me: what evidence do you have that the £10m grant given from a fund to which Southampton is not entitled, designed to fund R&D into a product not produced in Southampton, was in anyway linked to the factory in Southampton?[/p][/quote]I have never heard of a vote of 'no condodence' whatever that may be. Whatever you may care to call it, it was certainly not a vote of Confidence. Yes, the amendment was tabled by Tories. As there was a vote on it, and Labour were entitled to vote, are you saying that they should have abstained? Read what I wrote at 8:12. I have never claimed that the £10m given to Ford Dagenham was not for R&D, I stated that the link between Dagenham and Swaything was Ford not RGF. Linesman

9:29am Thu 1 Nov 12

Linesman says...

Pomerol wrote:
Linesman - you're clearly partisan, and you clearly have your facts wrong - not least of all because tonight's vote in Westminster was not on a motion of no condodence, but an amendment tabled by a Tory which Labour supported (against its own previous states position) merely to embarrass the Government - ie partisan politics at the expense of the national interest.

Perhaps you can enlighten me: what evidence do you have that the £10m grant given from a fund to which Southampton is not entitled, designed to fund R&D into a product not produced in Southampton, was in anyway linked to the factory in Southampton?
I have never heard of a vote of 'no condodence' whatever that may be.

Whatever you may care to call it, it was certainly not a vote of Confidence.

Yes, the amendment was tabled by Tories. As there was a vote on it, and Labour were entitled to vote, are you saying that they should have abstained?

Read what I wrote at 8:12. I have never claimed that the £10m given to Ford Dagenham was not for R&D, I stated that the link between Dagenham and Swaything was Ford not RGF.
[quote][p][bold]Pomerol[/bold] wrote: Linesman - you're clearly partisan, and you clearly have your facts wrong - not least of all because tonight's vote in Westminster was not on a motion of no condodence, but an amendment tabled by a Tory which Labour supported (against its own previous states position) merely to embarrass the Government - ie partisan politics at the expense of the national interest. Perhaps you can enlighten me: what evidence do you have that the £10m grant given from a fund to which Southampton is not entitled, designed to fund R&D into a product not produced in Southampton, was in anyway linked to the factory in Southampton?[/p][/quote]I have never heard of a vote of 'no condodence' whatever that may be. Whatever you may care to call it, it was certainly not a vote of Confidence. Yes, the amendment was tabled by Tories. As there was a vote on it, and Labour were entitled to vote, are you saying that they should have abstained? Read what I wrote at 8:12. I have never claimed that the £10m given to Ford Dagenham was not for R&D, I stated that the link between Dagenham and Swaything was Ford not RGF. Linesman

9:41am Thu 1 Nov 12

Pomerol says...

@linesman; 'Condodence is iPhonish! Confidence is what I meant to type.

Sorry - but you should know your constitution if you wish to comment with any credibility. A 'vote of no confidence' is VERY different from a backbench amendment to a Government bill. It was not a test of the House's confidence in the Government, a mechanism on which a Government can fall, but merely an indicative expression of the will of the House of Commons. It isn't even binding on the Government, who can, and will, ignore the result.

As to your substantive point, you are seeking, like Alan Whitehead, to somehow imply that when the RGF money was given to Ford, some kind of guarantee as to the future of Swaythling was given by Ford. I am merely asking how this assertion can be made given the facts.

And that is why I think Alan Whitehead is playing politics by focussing on a red herring when he should be doing what Caroline Nokes is doing - focusing on future Government support for the THIS area, not past Government support for another area.
@linesman; 'Condodence is iPhonish! Confidence is what I meant to type. Sorry - but you should know your constitution if you wish to comment with any credibility. A 'vote of no confidence' is VERY different from a backbench amendment to a Government bill. It was not a test of the House's confidence in the Government, a mechanism on which a Government can fall, but merely an indicative expression of the will of the House of Commons. It isn't even binding on the Government, who can, and will, ignore the result. As to your substantive point, you are seeking, like Alan Whitehead, to somehow imply that when the RGF money was given to Ford, some kind of guarantee as to the future of Swaythling was given by Ford. I am merely asking how this assertion can be made given the facts. And that is why I think Alan Whitehead is playing politics by focussing on a red herring when he should be doing what Caroline Nokes is doing - focusing on future Government support for the THIS area, not past Government support for another area. Pomerol

10:00am Thu 1 Nov 12

Linesman says...

loosehead wrote:
Linesman wrote:
loosehead wrote:
Linesman wrote:
If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them?

No! Neither can I.

By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.
Sorry but when a thousand =jobs were being lost with many more in suppliers it was Tony Blair,Denham & Whitehead who turned their backs on those workers & a Tory MEP who tried to save our jobs.
I don't smoke & never will but there are many who do & many countries who wanted a certain strength ( TAR) cigarette & we exported to them.
the EU said lower the strength Germany allowed the strength to remain as long as it was exported out of the EU.
Our leader at the time Tony Blair said we can't expect other countries to do something that's unhealthy for them so no you can't export t6hem from here.
The sheep sorry Two MP's from this city wouldn't even reply to our management so shows exactly what they thought of a thousand plus workers.
Caroline Nokes is standing up for her constituents & is trying to get funding to attract new industry here that's the sign of a good MP no matter what colour her party is.
So sorry Linesman it did happen when Blair & Brown were in charge & are you forgetting Martini's?
No similarity.

BAT moved abroad, like Ford.

Unlike Ford, there was no plant in Dagenham that was working on nicotine free cigarettes, employing considerably fewer than were made redundant Millbrook.

For that reason, there was no £10m grant made to BAT.

If that had happened, I have no doubt that, you would not have been making the same defence of Blair's government that you are doing of Cameron's.


Tories in disarray in the Vote of Confidence tonight.
Oh! So So wrong! BAT was working on a nicotine free cigarette & only moved abroad because with out it's exports Southampton was no longer viable where as Poland was cheaper to run so could run at a much lower volume.
BAT never once asked for a grant or a subsidy they just asked to be able to produce what the customer wanted & Labour refused to allow them to do this
So, as I said, there was no £10m grant to BAT, whether or not they asked for it.

Sometimes governments have to act on principle.

During the Labour years, and also during the previous Tory years, governments had conducted Quit Smoking campaigns. Previous to Labour coming to power, cigarettes like Capstan Full Strength had stopped being sold in the UK as part of the health campaign.

The Labour government did not consider it right that they should require BAT to produce less harmful cigarettes for UK consumption, but have no concern for the health of those in other countries.

It was a moral issue which I happen to agree with. It would appear that you think that it is OK to sell things that have a detrimental effect on the consumers' health, as long as you make a good profit for the share-holders.

My betting is that, as a former employee of BAT, you are a share-holder and have no qualms about picking up your divi.
[quote][p][bold]loosehead[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]loosehead[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Linesman[/bold] wrote: If this had happened when Blair or Brown were Prime Minister, can anyone imagine Pomeroi and loosehead would using the arguments that they are now using, to support them? No! Neither can I. By the same token, I cannot imagine Brown or Blair getting into such a farcical situation.[/p][/quote]Sorry but when a thousand =jobs were being lost with many more in suppliers it was Tony Blair,Denham & Whitehead who turned their backs on those workers & a Tory MEP who tried to save our jobs. I don't smoke & never will but there are many who do & many countries who wanted a certain strength ( TAR) cigarette & we exported to them. the EU said lower the strength Germany allowed the strength to remain as long as it was exported out of the EU. Our leader at the time Tony Blair said we can't expect other countries to do something that's unhealthy for them so no you can't export t6hem from here. The sheep sorry Two MP's from this city wouldn't even reply to our management so shows exactly what they thought of a thousand plus workers. Caroline Nokes is standing up for her constituents & is trying to get funding to attract new industry here that's the sign of a good MP no matter what colour her party is. So sorry Linesman it did happen when Blair & Brown were in charge & are you forgetting Martini's?[/p][/quote]No similarity. BAT moved abroad, like Ford. Unlike Ford, there was no plant in Dagenham that was working on nicotine free cigarettes, employing considerably fewer than were made redundant Millbrook. For that reason, there was no £10m grant made to BAT. If that had happened, I have no doubt that, you would not have been making the same defence of Blair's government that you are doing of Cameron's. Tories in disarray in the Vote of Confidence tonight.[/p][/quote]Oh! So So wrong! BAT was working on a nicotine free cigarette & only moved abroad because with out it's exports Southampton was no longer viable where as Poland was cheaper to run so could run at a much lower volume. BAT never once asked for a grant or a subsidy they just asked to be able to produce what the customer wanted & Labour refused to allow them to do this[/p][/quote]So, as I said, there was no £10m grant to BAT, whether or not they asked for it. Sometimes governments have to act on principle. During the Labour years, and also during the previous Tory years, governments had conducted Quit Smoking campaigns. Previous to Labour coming to power, cigarettes like Capstan Full Strength had stopped being sold in the UK as part of the health campaign. The Labour government did not consider it right that they should require BAT to produce less harmful cigarettes for UK consumption, but have no concern for the health of those in other countries. It was a moral issue which I happen to agree with. It would appear that you think that it is OK to sell things that have a detrimental effect on the consumers' health, as long as you make a good profit for the share-holders. My betting is that, as a former employee of BAT, you are a share-holder and have no qualms about picking up your divi. Linesman

12:31pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Pomerol says...

@Linesman - moral and ethical standpoints are all well and good, but work counter to the national interest unless they are universal.

The reality is we can take a position which says "we will not permit the consumption or export high tar cigarettes", but in a globalised economy, the producers will simply move to a country which permits consumption and export.

We lose out in terms of revenue, tax-take and costs of unemployment, and other countries benefit from inward investment.

There is an argument made by 'small L liberals' that Governments should be a-moral, and not have moral or ethical positions, that the market should be more of an arbiter, and that individuals should make their own decisions over issues which impact on them and not others.

The reality is that whilst the moral stance of Blair and Brown might be laudable, in this instance, it cost jobs!
@Linesman - moral and ethical standpoints are all well and good, but work counter to the national interest unless they are universal. The reality is we can take a position which says "we will not permit the consumption or export high tar cigarettes", but in a globalised economy, the producers will simply move to a country which permits consumption and export. We lose out in terms of revenue, tax-take and costs of unemployment, and other countries benefit from inward investment. There is an argument made by 'small L liberals' that Governments should be a-moral, and not have moral or ethical positions, that the market should be more of an arbiter, and that individuals should make their own decisions over issues which impact on them and not others. The reality is that whilst the moral stance of Blair and Brown might be laudable, in this instance, it cost jobs! Pomerol

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