Yeah, OK, sure thing.

You keep believing Jan, just like you believed we would soon hammer someone, just like you believed we could reach the play offs, just like you believed we could win 6 out of the next 10 games, just like you believed we had the right mix of skill and steel.

You keep believing because with these results you'll soon be the only one left believing (apart from you Director of Football whose reputation is also at stake).

With every game, it becomes increasingly more like the doomed Wigley era.

It would be much better if rather than cntinually promise things, you actualy got on and delivered something.

A quiet word in your ear Jan so listen carefully. 4-4-2. Got it? If you don't understand give me a call and I will explain. Secondly ignore that inept Chairman of the PLC when he comes around offering you advice. Just look where his decisions have got us in the past. Wouldn't you just love to work with full international players, have money in the bank for transfers, to play each week in front of a packed stadium full of fans united in their support of the Saints playing Premiership football. Well that is what we had until Lowe got his hands on our club but not now thanks to him and if you take any notice of him we will never have that again.

Jan this is the second time this season already you have stated that point. We are still waiting.

Was not that long ago you talk up a might points tally from a number of games. You was way of the mark there too.

Why do you keep setting yourself up like this? Because you can see and you say enough times, is this a form of your coaching, as your coaching to date has showen very little to match your talk. I still think your out of your depth!

"In all, Saints have scored just four goals in their last ten and a half hours of league action – three of those goals coming in 26 minutes at Preston."

I wonder why that is???

Sell your best strikers and you will score fewer goals. FACT.

This club is run by morons.

They should becoming soon, stay positive.

www.idotech.co.uk "home to the very best technology online"

I am with you Paul. We WILL start scoring goals, and the performance on Saturday shows we have skill, guts, and determination. We also had great chances against top opposition. A bit more confidence up front with perhaps someone to lend McGoldrick a hand will see us hitting the back of the net - then watch us climb that table.

Still confident of survival

As I sat watching the enthusiastic, entertaining, but ultimately futile attempts of the gallant saints 10 to score an equalising goal, I looked across from my vantage point in the Kingsland stand to where I noticed manager McCarthy and his sombre, Dutch, opposite number.

Despite being on crutches and, from where we were observing, resembling a tripod, McCarthy could be seen extolling even more effort from his team. Jan, meanwhile, seemed resigned to his fate of overseeing yet another Saints home defeat. He appeared to be giving no direction to the players who, at times, despite a hit and miss approach to their play, were making Wolves look ordinary. As if we haven’t had enough managerial changes, I still found myself thinking of the unlamented Harry Rednkapp.

Notwithstanding the defeat inflicted by Fulham, he has managed to transform a group of players at Spurs (who rival Saints for managerial instability), from losers into winners. I remarked on this to the chap next to me and we then pondered on whether the right man could achieve a similar feat with our bunch of nippers. Such a man, we are given to understand, would have to work for scarcely more than the national minimum wage and be impervious to the interference of Chairman Lowe.

Even so, surely someone could make more effective use of the non-directed talent currently representing the Saints, than the present incumbent of the head coach role. Mr Kinnear may soon be glad of the work, but that is not to say he is the right man. I wonder who is.

I understand what you are saying - even if I do not agree with it. However you made a really bad choice when you brought up the name of Rednapp. He who came here and did bugger all, and was most noticeable for the lack of animosity when he was in charge here. The man who comes near to a heart attack most matches with his antics on the line chose the for the best part to sit in the dug-out at SMS looking like a corpse.

Why you feel that you have to be animated on the line to be a top coach is beyond me - look around because lots don't feel the need to do it. I know this does happen with a lot of top coaches but it is not essential, and if this kind of behaviour is not normal to the man - why should he invent it just to look the part. If he did, we would end up with something akin to the Tim Henman attempts to emulate the top players, who naturally got mad and geed themselves up. I am sure you would not want that embarrassment on our touch line.

Forget the man, and look instead at the football, and the performance, and the fight back. Stop finely examining the game to eventually find a negative.

Get behind the team and you may find they will continue to improve, and may even get us out of the mess we are in by the end of the season.

Remember - it requires fewer muscles to smile

Still the same old tired lines being posted then. 'believe in the team, get behind them', 'the wins are just around the corner','it's great football to watch'
What a load of rot. Saints are out of their depth. There is very little in the way of direction or aggression. Men against Boys was never going to work, and the majority of fans said as much at the time. The arrogant ones that come on here stamped on any chance of a debate about it though. How dare anyone question the club, or its direction.....
WEll now it has come back and bitten you on hte behind. Almost half way through the season, and an average of less than a point a game. Minimal crowds (still, that doesn't matter, because you lot only wanted TRUE fans at the stadium) The football is boring. Not the way that it is played, but the predictability of the outcome. Saints are a whipping team. Wake up to the fact.
Enough said...

Derek of Holbury wrote:

Forget the man, and look instead at the football, and the performance, and the fight back. Stop finely examining the game to eventually find a negative.



I prefer to look at the league table and the viddyprinter at 4:50.

You can have as much pretty football as you like, as many platitudes from the opposition and as many promises from the manager, but ultimatley the league table doesn't lie.

And you don't really ave to look hard to see the negatives, they're staring us right in the face.

Robbie Robertson wrote:
Still the same old tired lines being posted then. 'believe in the team, get behind them', 'the wins are just around the corner','it's great football to watch' What a load of rot. Saints are out of their depth. There is very little in the way of direction or aggression. Men against Boys was never going to work, and the majority of fans said as much at the time. The arrogant ones that come on here stamped on any chance of a debate about it though. How dare anyone question the club, or its direction..... WEll now it has come back and bitten you on hte behind. Almost half way through the season, and an average of less than a point a game. Minimal crowds (still, that doesn't matter, because you lot only wanted TRUE fans at the stadium) The football is boring. Not the way that it is played, but the predictability of the outcome. Saints are a whipping team. Wake up to the fact. Enough said...

Well i dont think they`re out of their depth,we`re pretty competitive with most other teams in this league and we`re agressive because we`ve had 3 players sent off already this season.We`re certainly lacking in the defence and lightweight upfront.Im fully aware that we could go down this season and thats a depressing reality for all of us,but im sticking with Poortvleit because he`s hardly had a chance to stamp his authority onto the club and team yet,i believe all managers should get at least a couple of seasons to find their way,unfortunately everyone seems to demand instant success,the two best teams in our league have had managers who were given time.

"But he is not concerning himself with thoughts of a season-long battle for survival."

I think this is exactly what Jan should be concerning himself with.

Playing pretty football is very well and good if you can score goals. Playing pretty ineffective football is worth nothing.

Even more frustrating when we have three championship level (at least) strikers on loan. Harp on about money all you want, but releagtion will be far more costly than any of Saga, Rasiak or Johns wages.

Robbie - I think what you probably mean is IN YOUR OPINION, our beliefs in the football we are watching are rot.

Not slagging you off for having a different opinion to me, but how can you come on the site with such scathing shouts at us, and then moan that we are stamping on any chance of debate. If you care to look you will find that debate is very much alive and kicking on this site.

If we decide to question your beliefs, it then gives you the opportunity to come back and support you claims and then we enter into debate. I would not dream of calling your views rot.

How can we possibly come back and debate what you have just written.

You are right - it is men against the boys, but that is all we have really, and to be honest I stand by the claim that they are playing brilliant football at times. This is not just me saying it but lots of highly rated professionals in the game are saying it too. I know which view I would prefer to believe. True it is not winning us many games at present but we are not far away now - and that is my opinion. It also happens to be the opinion of lots of people I talk to, and hear from on this site. I much prefer this sort of football than what I have witnessed over the past few years where highly paid players just hoofed it forward. The main difference seems to be that these kids are actually proud to pull on the shirt, and that is so refreshing.

Good enough for me to watch and that is why I support the team.

Its reasonably common knowledge that people who are angry about something are very likely to complain, and people who are satisfied usually keep quiet.
Thank you, Derek of Holbury, for your campaign to represent the view of the silent majority, including your unwillingness to respond to the sometimes childish abuse from some of those few who disagree with you.
I've only been a season ticket holder for about 30 years, so don't qualify to discuss Saints' right to instant success. I'm enjoying the football being played by the current team more than quite a lot I've seen before, although clearly less than at other times, and I will enjoy it more when the results start reflecting the quality of the football better, but it usually takes at least half a season to get a new team really working, and this fine crop of youngsters haven't had that yet.
So I'm with you Derek - keep up the good work, and hopefully when the results start matching what you and I both see, the stay-away fans will come back to SMS and help to reduce the likelihood of the best of the current bunch having to be sold off to keep our Club financially viable.

John, I am just waiting for the packed stadium, because it is a greater atmosphere and will help the lads.

I will also have a little smile on my face as I think of all the fans that have come back when we are doing well. The same fans that continually find only negatives to write on this site.

Everybody has the right to a view and a comment, but I do wish there were not so many on the Anti Lowe banwagon that keep on spouting the same things parrot fashion.

Lets just honestly comment on the good football these keids display and try and help them up he table.

Derek - "everyone has a right to a view and a comment" - fine in principle, but having rights also creates responsibilities. This site's rules say that people have a responsibility to avoid abuse, which those who wish to bully you and me out of our views don't accept. The right to a view also implies a responsibility to inform yourself about the validity of your view. Those who spout slanderous nonsense about Directors "lining their pockets" with club funds clearly don't accept that responsibility either.
Again, I'm with you - focus on the football and supporting the team we have!

Derek & John. I accept what you say about the quality of some of the football being played by the young team, but results and the league table show that, currently, they are neither good enough defensively or offensively.

What do you two think JP should do to correct this problem, BEFORE it is too late?

Thank you for the question Costa Baz. Firstly, as I said in my previous post, I think its only reasonable to expect the team to start to perform to its true capabilities after about half a season. So I think its far too EARLY to start talking about it being too LATE.
Secondly, JP has played in a World Cup Final and has a track record of huge success in developing teams of young players to play good football AND win things, so he is far better qualified than me (or, I suspect, any of his critics) to know, and learn, and adapt to what he needs to do.
My opinions are based on 30 years of watching Saints, through previous bad times as well as good, and having played two other sports at quite high levels, one minor one at international level once, and in my working life I was quite a senior manager, although not in sport, but I accept that that isn't necessarily entirely appropriate experience to offer JP my advice. But since you ask me to, I would say: stick to your principles and beliefs, but continue to adapt them, as you have done so far, to the conditions and people you have available to deliver them. Ignore ill-informed abuse. Try your best to insulate your fairly impressionable young players from some of the negativity that gets thrown at the Club, and give them confidence to believe in their own ability and play without fear, especially at SMS in spite of things like the negative chanting that started up between Wolves' second goal and Pearce's reply. And get lucky, with injuries (Svensson, Holmes, Thomas etc.), officials, and goal posts.

Thanks John.

Let me now re-phrase the question.

If YOU were in charge of the team, what action would you take to improve our goal scoring record and to improve the defensive deficiencies that are clear to all.

Sorry Baz. That makes about as much sense as asking me to pretend I'm Gordon Brown or Barack Obama and solve the world's financial crisis, although - with apologies to fellow football fans everywhere, especially Bill Shankly - that is far more important than winning football matches.
Whatever I would DO could only possibly make things worse, because I don't know enough about it to be able to do the right things to make it better. Nor, I respectfully suggest, do you. I do observe the same things that you do, which seem to me to represent mainly instantaneous losses of concentration in both penalty areas. In my experiences outlined previously, I KNOW that loss of concentration is more likely a) if you are not sufficiently fit (which Saturday's second-half display shows is clearly NOT the case) and b) if you are playing with fear, or lack of confidence. So what I would SUGGEST is what I suggested before - try to overcome the fear and loss of confidence. The fans are hugely important in that - again as Saturday's second half showed. So, as John F Kennedy once nearly said, don't ask what they can do for me, ask what I can do for them.

Costa Baz - we all are aware that the defence is nowhere near as good as it should be and that currently we are not scoring enough goals. I think it is a pretty good bet that Jan also has this knowledge. If that sounds condescending I apologise because that was not my intention.

We can all sit here day after day putting forward ideas and tactics and formations, but we are not at the training ground each day and therefore have no real grasp of the availability, fitness of the players, or how well they work together. I am not making excuses for the man but these things should be taken into consideration.

The biggest problem is lack of experience particularly at the back, but unfortunately we have so many defensive players who have been out for either long periods through injuruy , or out through suspension. With the best will in the world, if we have to keep throwing kids in at the back (sometimes out of position) and bever playing the same four at the back for two consecutive games, then we are only ever going to be exposed.

I will welcome the return of Thomas ans Svenson at the back (hopefully for a long unbeaten run) and make more us of Perry and Wotton. The return of Homes cannot come quickly enough for me. My own personal opinion is that we would be better off with Surman back at left back with Skacel pushing up to left midfield. That brings us to the problem of the strikers and I agree we need two up. It looks like Euell was starting to become that elusive second player on Saturday and then got sent off. This may work, but certainly McGoldrick is not cut out to be a lone front man in my mind. I would like to see him rested and come on late in the game to help out if necessary. Not saying forever, but at the moment he runs a lot but is not producing, so it may do him good. In his absence I would probably go for Pechart and Robertson and give them a fair run together so that they can form a partnership. Now your suggestion would p[robably be quite different to mine which would be different to John's. So you see how difficult it is to pick a team and keep everybody happy. Not easy being a manager is it?

Whatever the man does (within reason) I wil stick by him because he has been responsible for taking over at the club with difficult circumstances, and getting a bunch of kids to play some sparkling football. Not winning too many matches at present but I do think he is getting there. For that reasion he deserves my support and will get it. These lads also deserve it, and I really wish more would go to see them - they are worth it.

John of Bassett wrote:
Thank you for the question Costa Baz. Firstly, as I said in my previous post, I think its only reasonable to expect the team to start to perform to its true capabilities after about half a season. So I think its far too EARLY to start talking about it being too LATE. Secondly, JP has played in a World Cup Final and has a track record of huge success in developing teams of young players to play good football AND win things, so he is far better qualified than me (or, I suspect, any of his critics) to know, and learn, and adapt to what he needs to do. My opinions are based on 30 years of watching Saints, through previous bad times as well as good, and having played two other sports at quite high levels, one minor one at international level once, and in my working life I was quite a senior manager, although not in sport, but I accept that that isn't necessarily entirely appropriate experience to offer JP my advice. But since you ask me to, I would say: stick to your principles and beliefs, but continue to adapt them, as you have done so far, to the conditions and people you have available to deliver them. Ignore ill-informed abuse. Try your best to insulate your fairly impressionable young players from some of the negativity that gets thrown at the Club, and give them confidence to believe in their own ability and play without fear, especially at SMS in spite of things like the negative chanting that started up between Wolves' second goal and Pearce's reply. And get lucky, with injuries (Svensson, Holmes, Thomas etc.), officials, and goal posts.

John you claim that JP has played in a world cup and that he is a proven and your words huge track record in success in developing teams of young players?

Where have you seen this John, apart from what Lowe wanted to put out there. Where dose it say a Dutch players who played in a World cup is qualified good coach? What levels has he coach, and where? Why the hell did he pay the compenstion to come to a HIGHER level league? He is trying his luck at this level, and facts and results show two things! He is possiblly out of his depth, and Lowe is gambling with our future. He to date has not coached the team to defend or score wining goals! We are facing religation, and have a too big goal difference in the minus. We are in trouble and patches of pretty football dose not win you points! But may points are not important here?

Here you are Saint,

Just to prove what John was saying, and yes he did play for the Netherlands in the world cup. Try Wikapaedia if you do not believe me.

I would say that he appears to have had a pretty good playing career and also not a bad management career, but no doubt you will pour scorn on his record as you fail to find anything that is positive about this club of ours.

I expect you may well be one of those who was crying out for Banali and Le Tiss to take over. As much respect as I have for both those gents - they have never managed or trained anyone at any level. Nuff said??

You say we are facing relegation - have you noticed how many games there are left? Look at the 6 teams above us and check out their points and tell me that they are not also then facing relegation. So that makes about 10 clubs so far that are facing relegation - Correct?? Now look at all those teams you reckon are facing relegation and then look at their managers. By your estimation all these managers must be much better qualified to manage Southampton than the Dutch idiot we have got. Why is it then that they are not way above us in the table - bad luck perhaps?


Jan Poortvliet
Personal information
Full name Jan Poortvliet
Date of birth 21 September 1955 (1955-09-21) (age 53)
Place of birth Arnemuiden, Netherlands
Height 5 ft 11 in (1.80 m)
Playing position Defender, midfielder
Club information
Current club Southampton (Manager)
Senior clubs1
Years Club App (Gls)*
1974–1983
1983–1984
1984–1987
1987–1988
1988–1989
1989–1990
1990–1992 PSV Eindhoven
Roda JC
Nîmes Olympique
Antwerp FC
AS Cannes
SC Eendracht Aalst
VCV Zeeland 264 (41)
020 0(1)
097 (15)
034 0(7)
036 0(3)
020 0(3)
060 0(4)
National team
Netherlands 019 0(1)
Teams managed
1996-1997
2000-2001
2002-2005
2007-2008
2008– RBC Roosendaal
FC Den Bosch
Telstar
Helmond Sport
Southampton
1 Senior club appearances and goals
counted for the domestic league only.
* Appearances (Goals)

Not sure how the above stats will copy over forom Wikapaedia but that is where you can go and look if it is a bit scrambled. But I think you will get the point

"Saint" - I know being a football fan is all about dreaming of success. Maybe its the obsession with "reality" TV and electronic games that has made people believe that you only have to waggle your thumb to make dreams happen. It doesn't quite work like that in the real world - you have to work for it. Whatever you choose to believe about the reasons SFC got to where it was at the end of last season, most people now seem to accept that our Club was broke, financially and in several other respects. In order to survive, it either had to be acquired by some benevolent billionaire who wanted to gamble part of his fortune on turning it into a successful Premier/Champions League Team overnight, or else it had to adapt as best it could to the reality it faced. Fortunately, because of previous wise decisions and investments, it had an Academy that had produced a crop of just-about-old-enoug
h players of exceptional promise. With the retention or acquisition of whatever experience the Club could afford to pay for, and a coaching structure designed to have the best chance of developing these kids into a viable team, and a bit of luck, they might do the job. Hence the seach for, and employment of, a pair of Dutch coaches with just that pedigree. As far as I can see, its working probably better than anyone had a right to hope for. After less than half a season together, these lads are playing football that is admired by most people who know anything real about the game. They are still naive and lacking in confidence at times in both penalty areas, but they are improving, and the plan seems to me to have a good chance of working, and the football is certainly worth watching. In these circumstances, I think MY club deserves and needs MY support. I also believe it needs and deserves the support of everyone else who claims to care for its future, but that's a matter of individual choice. Even if you don't agree, I HOPE that you will at least try not to damage my club's prospects by surrounding it in negativity and undermining the efforts of those, on and off the field, who are trying to make it work.

Derek of Holbury wrote:
Here you are Saint, Just to prove what John was saying, and yes he did play for the Netherlands in the world cup. Try Wikapaedia if you do not believe me. I would say that he appears to have had a pretty good playing career and also not a bad management career, but no doubt you will pour scorn on his record as you fail to find anything that is positive about this club of ours. I expect you may well be one of those who was crying out for Banali and Le Tiss to take over. As much respect as I have for both those gents - they have never managed or trained anyone at any level. Nuff said?? You say we are facing relegation - have you noticed how many games there are left? Look at the 6 teams above us and check out their points and tell me that they are not also then facing relegation. So that makes about 10 clubs so far that are facing relegation - Correct?? Now look at all those teams you reckon are facing relegation and then look at their managers. By your estimation all these managers must be much better qualified to manage Southampton than the Dutch idiot we have got. Why is it then that they are not way above us in the table - bad luck perhaps? Jan Poortvliet Personal information Full name Jan Poortvliet Date of birth 21 September 1955 (1955-09-21) (age 53) Place of birth Arnemuiden, Netherlands Height 5 ft 11 in (1.80 m) Playing position Defender, midfielder Club information Current club Southampton (Manager) Senior clubs1 Years Club App (Gls)* 1974–1983 1983–1984 1984–1987 1987–1988 1988–1989 1989–1990 1990–1992 PSV Eindhoven Roda JC Nîmes Olympique Antwerp FC AS Cannes SC Eendracht Aalst VCV Zeeland 264 (41) 020 0(1) 097 (15) 034 0(7) 036 0(3) 020 0(3) 060 0(4) National team Netherlands 019 0(1) Teams managed 1996-1997 2000-2001 2002-2005 2007-2008 2008– RBC Roosendaal FC Den Bosch Telstar Helmond Sport Southampton 1 Senior club appearances and goals counted for the domestic league only. * Appearances (Goals) Not sure how the above stats will copy over forom Wikapaedia but that is where you can go and look if it is a bit scrambled. But I think you will get the point

Who hunting who?

I know he was a Dutch international and played in the world cup final.

Crying out loud Derek!

John of Bassett wrote:
"Saint" - I know being a football fan is all about dreaming of success. Maybe its the obsession with "reality" TV and electronic games that has made people believe that you only have to waggle your thumb to make dreams happen. It doesn't quite work like that in the real world - you have to work for it. Whatever you choose to believe about the reasons SFC got to where it was at the end of last season, most people now seem to accept that our Club was broke, financially and in several other respects. In order to survive, it either had to be acquired by some benevolent billionaire who wanted to gamble part of his fortune on turning it into a successful Premier/Champions League Team overnight, or else it had to adapt as best it could to the reality it faced. Fortunately, because of previous wise decisions and investments, it had an Academy that had produced a crop of just-about-old-enoug h players of exceptional promise. With the retention or acquisition of whatever experience the Club could afford to pay for, and a coaching structure designed to have the best chance of developing these kids into a viable team, and a bit of luck, they might do the job. Hence the seach for, and employment of, a pair of Dutch coaches with just that pedigree. As far as I can see, its working probably better than anyone had a right to hope for. After less than half a season together, these lads are playing football that is admired by most people who know anything real about the game. They are still naive and lacking in confidence at times in both penalty areas, but they are improving, and the plan seems to me to have a good chance of working, and the football is certainly worth watching. In these circumstances, I think MY club deserves and needs MY support. I also believe it needs and deserves the support of everyone else who claims to care for its future, but that's a matter of individual choice. Even if you don't agree, I HOPE that you will at least try not to damage my club's prospects by surrounding it in negativity and undermining the efforts of those, on and off the field, who are trying to make it work.

John you are funny. I do live in reality, the only differences is yours is now and not further.

The finacial crap we are in is not overnight. It is ten years plus of demise and you ignore this fact.

You still fail to answer my points of if Jan is a good enough coach at this level or not? Playing in a world cup dose not make you a good coach! Simply fans are divided, and what ever you want to belief, here and now Jan is out of his depth.You are hoping he will improve, and if he dose then I would be happy too! Though as far as I can see he is not. We can not defend. We can not score. We have a lossing habit at home. We are in a religation fight. You are only hanging onto hope that things will turn. You get nil points for pretty football at times on a pitch. We are not a winning team, and I can see him improving it much!His tactics are useless. Sorry that what I see, and yes I do want success, and I am entitled to that as a Saint fan. No I am not happy seeing a big gamble being played with our club future. Though where dose you future start, because we have been here so many season after seasons and still the same old message is being rolled out for another season!

Progress is upwards and yes you have to work at it, but how long, and all this could change again when our young talent is sold. There are better coaches out there!

"Saint" - SFC was never a RICH club, but has always tried to be a financially sound one, which is necessary to stay in business. Over the past 10 years of what you call decline, the financial goalposts have been moved by clubs that were already much richer getting ridiculously rich through bringing in external money, some of rather dubious quality. SFC has not been able to attract that. As I said before, you can argue all you like about WHY that is, but you can't change the facts. At the end of last season, we were spending money we didn't have like water, and it left us in financial crisis, and only just succeeded in keeping us in the Championship. If it hadn't, the club might have folded by now, so I guess it was "worth it" as a short-term gamble, but it wasn't sustainable. So we HAD to start the new season with 6 players making their debut in the first match, mostly under-20, and with coaches who were used to developing teams with that structure into successful outfits. As I said in a previous post, you CANNOT expect such a team to be very successful in its first less-than-half-seaso
n. The best you can hope for is that they survive and improve and, from what I see, that is what they are doing. That's JP's job, and that's what he is doing. It is FAR TOO EARLY to be slagging off everyone who doesn't do what you think is right, because its just possible that they KNOW what isn't right better than you do and are DOING the right things to correct them - over time, because there is no instant success available. Survival this year is the criterion for success. JP and the Board can't say that publicly, because they'd be lynched, and the players would get the wrong mentality and lose the confidence that they are visibly gaining at present. What they (the players) need is for the fans to support and help them, and certainly NOT to undermine their confidence with negativity.

John of Bassett wrote:
"Saint" - SFC was never a RICH club, but has always tried to be a financially sound one, which is necessary to stay in business. Over the past 10 years of what you call decline, the financial goalposts have been moved by clubs that were already much richer getting ridiculously rich through bringing in external money, some of rather dubious quality. SFC has not been able to attract that. As I said before, you can argue all you like about WHY that is, but you can't change the facts. At the end of last season, we were spending money we didn't have like water, and it left us in financial crisis, and only just succeeded in keeping us in the Championship. If it hadn't, the club might have folded by now, so I guess it was "worth it" as a short-term gamble, but it wasn't sustainable. So we HAD to start the new season with 6 players making their debut in the first match, mostly under-20, and with coaches who were used to developing teams with that structure into successful outfits. As I said in a previous post, you CANNOT expect such a team to be very successful in its first less-than-half-seaso n. The best you can hope for is that they survive and improve and, from what I see, that is what they are doing. That's JP's job, and that's what he is doing. It is FAR TOO EARLY to be slagging off everyone who doesn't do what you think is right, because its just possible that they KNOW what isn't right better than you do and are DOING the right things to correct them - over time, because there is no instant success available. Survival this year is the criterion for success. JP and the Board can't say that publicly, because they'd be lynched, and the players would get the wrong mentality and lose the confidence that they are visibly gaining at present. What they (the players) need is for the fans to support and help them, and certainly NOT to undermine their confidence with negativity.

John funny you use negativity at the end, as in many ways your whole theory is negative in the long run.

I have never said our club was rich, your words. Though you still miss that with Lowe in charge at these time you talk of, we could of been better of than we are now if we was managed and lead by a better chairmen and board. One that made the right decision when they were presented. One that made the right decision and acted in the right way when the warning signs were there season after season. Why the hell do you think Lowe pushed himself on the FA board, and he srcewed that up. Just talk to the FA council menebers and they will freely tell you how arrogant Lowe was/is.

You can not simply dismiss the past decline, to aid your focus on now. What happen with the decline is still much affecting the club now and will until we get a better run board and chairman, and when that eventually dose happen you will see.

The massive flaw in you arguement of the here and now, is yes with luck we might survie. At the moment that is a big might! Also you are hoping this team will still be together next season. It will not, and it angers me as mucvh as many others that we are turning very much into a selling club! So we was here last season and the season before and before that, and you get the picture. So when will it stop and be the season we achive. You way just allows us to wallow in this division or lower ones for season to come! That why I say it's a massive gamble with our future, and I like you want it to work. Today 20/11/08 it is clearly not. All we are seeing is clever talk by Lowe, and Jan. We are seeing training ground football at times, which is pretty at best. We are not seeing end results in the net, we are not defending. Jan is not coaching this very well, and his tactical action through a match is debatable to say the least. You hope to succede is no less than any Saints fan for or against this gamble. But that all it is for now is hope. Teams are queing up to play us, and the excuses are rolled out all the time.

John we are fighting at the wrong end of the table, and you fail to acknowleage that thou you think survival is you goal for now. That also gose hand in hand with religation, and that would finacial be worst and a very long round back, and possibly not in our life times, or even worst a gap too big by then!

"Saint" - I can read the current league table. I'm just pointing out that the season is less than half-way through, and the team is improving, as you would expect. For the rest, I think it is completely pointless to argue about WHY we are in the position we are in. You and I are likely to disagree about the causes, but we would both be basing our views on opinions, not REAL facts. We are where we are now. We have to start from here and move forward, not wish we were starting from somewhere else. For better or worse, the current Board is in place until it is changed by the mechanisms appropriate to changing it, and that involves the hypothetical appearance of a fairy godmother who wants to plough a lot of money into an inherently risky business. In a financial world that has changed rather dramatically over recent weeks, that dream seems far more improbable than it did only a few weeks ago, and it wasn't likely then. So my feeling is that Saints fans would generally be better off not looking backwards and saying "what-if", because we can't change it, and better off not dreaming of someone coming to shower the club with untold wealth, because it almost certainly isn't going to happen. What is left is supporting the team, and certainly is not continuing the negativity about JP, the players, the Board or anyone else, because all that does is lower morale and confidence and make failure, relegation and whatever more likely. That sounds fairly positive to me, but I guess you are entitled to think otherwise if you want.

John of Bassett wrote:
"Saint" - I can read the current league table. I'm just pointing out that the season is less than half-way through, and the team is improving, as you would expect. For the rest, I think it is completely pointless to argue about WHY we are in the position we are in. You and I are likely to disagree about the causes, but we would both be basing our views on opinions, not REAL facts. We are where we are now. We have to start from here and move forward, not wish we were starting from somewhere else. For better or worse, the current Board is in place until it is changed by the mechanisms appropriate to changing it, and that involves the hypothetical appearance of a fairy godmother who wants to plough a lot of money into an inherently risky business. In a financial world that has changed rather dramatically over recent weeks, that dream seems far more improbable than it did only a few weeks ago, and it wasn't likely then. So my feeling is that Saints fans would generally be better off not looking backwards and saying "what-if", because we can't change it, and better off not dreaming of someone coming to shower the club with untold wealth, because it almost certainly isn't going to happen. What is left is supporting the team, and certainly is not continuing the negativity about JP, the players, the Board or anyone else, because all that does is lower morale and confidence and make failure, relegation and whatever more likely. That sounds fairly positive to me, but I guess you are entitled to think otherwise if you want.

John your point is only vailed if we make progress, and so far half season or not we are here again and for many past seasons now, with no progress.

You think because Jan is a world cup final play, that makes him a good coach. Well may be you should see what a ten times better player like Matt Le Tisser has to say about what we are doing playing so many youth players, and his fears for the season. May be you will listern to Le Tiss, who knows more than you and I put together?

"Saint" - I'd prefer you wouldn't try to tell me what I think, if you don't mind. For the record, someone somewhere way back on this thread said that JP was a useless player and a useless coach, or something similar. I responded that he was a World Cup Final player and a coach with a hugely successful track record of achieving things with teams of younger players, both of which Derek of Holbury confirmed from Wikipedia. I DIDN'T say that being a World Cup Player made him a good coach - his track record makes him an appropriate coach for the team that we have no option but to field. You should also understand that I don't necessarily LIKE SFC being in the financial position it is in, doing what it has to do, which probably isn't a million miles from Matty's position (or yours). All I am saying is that the situation is how it is, and there is no point dreaming about "what-if" it was different. In the context of the situation, I think that everyone at the club is doing the best they can, and trying to improve. The football is sometimes very good, sometimes naive, but is improving, and I see neither cause to panic nor value in panicking at this fairly early stage in the season, i.e. less than half-way through. Fans have two choices, I think - either accept reality and get behind the team and coach, and stop undermining them with negativity, or tip us closer to the edge of oblivion by whingeing that they wish reality was nicer and/or by staying away. You make your choice, I'll make mine.

I am with you John, and similarly feel that the negativity is playing it's part on how the club proceeds and more importantly, how the lads perform.

I have been accused a few times on this site for demeaning the views of others or trying to either to make myself look good/cool, or believing that only my view counts. Nothing is further from the truth and I sometimes think that when I challenge someone for their view or comments, they become angry because perhaps they have no answer - and then they have a pop at me.

My beliefs are simple. As a fan I believe the priority is to support your team, and get behind the players in an effort to give them the best possible chance to win games for us the fans.

I see no value in writing to the press or going onto websites to continually have a go at the management or the board for things they may or may not have done.

Staying away from the ground in vast numbers can only have a negative effect on the finances of the club, and the players taking the pitch on matchday. I appreciate there is a great depth of feeling against Lowe and Wilde, for which I simply do not know whether it is justified or not, and that is the reason some people are complaining and staying away. I also know there is a credit crunch and that will make keep people away, as will the current standard of play and our lowly league position. However I do have an opimion (and it is only my opinion) which is, that were we to shoot up the table and be in a really strong position to challenge for Premier football next season - the gates would dramatically increase. I cannot prove it and I am not making claims I cannot substanciate - it is just an opinion.

I am accused by some people of making claims and statements that I cannot back up and when I ask what they are I get no response.
I am also accused of asking others for evidence of the claims made against Lowe, and then never telling them what those clsims are - Untrue. Just in case you missed them though, here they are again.

Show me your evidence of where Lowe has meddled on the training ground. Just seeing him there does not count

Show me your evidence of where Lowe has picked the team. Knowing he has gone to the training ground or the dressing room does not count.

Show me your evidence of where Lowe has got rid of players this season he could have kept

Show me your evidence of where Lowe is filling his pockets with cash this season that could have been spent on players.

Show me your evidence of what our current finacial position is.

Show me your evidence of where lowe has taken over the dressing room and gives the team talks. Knowing he has been to the dressing room does not count.

Show me your evidence of where lowe is deliberately keeping this club in a lowly position so no new investor will come in for us.

Show me your evidence of where Lowe is not actively trying to get investment for the club. Having heard nothing in the press or on the grapevine does not count.

Show me your evidence that either Lowe or Portvliet are gay or having an affair

Show me your evidence that we will lose umpteen players come January -0 that the deal has already been done for Surman ans Lallana.

Show me your evidence that Portvliet is a second rate manager who has no qualifications and no track record/success working with boys

These are comments and claims I have read at various times on this site, and I believe (my opinion) that hey are without foundation. Unfortunately, if the people that make these claims say them loud enough and often enough, other people who do not have a great affection for Lowe will take these on as fact. They then start passing these 'facts' around and so the story grows.

It may be that there is evidence for some or all of these claims - all I am asking is for someone to come on here and show me that evidence. Otherwise, I feel you owe it to our club to stop putting out stories to further your claims against Lowe without proof, as it is damaging to the club we all say we are supporting.

I have intended to write this article without prejudice, and in a way that is not demeaning or upsetting to anyone, and I sincerely hope that is the way it comes across.

All I want at the end of the day is a unity in our support, so we can return to backing the club and it's players and hopefully once again fill SMS with united support and move on to better things

John of Bassett wrote:
"Saint" - I'd prefer you wouldn't try to tell me what I think, if you don't mind. For the record, someone somewhere way back on this thread said that JP was a useless player and a useless coach, or something similar. I responded that he was a World Cup Final player and a coach with a hugely successful track record of achieving things with teams of younger players, both of which Derek of Holbury confirmed from Wikipedia. I DIDN'T say that being a World Cup Player made him a good coach - his track record makes him an appropriate coach for the team that we have no option but to field. You should also understand that I don't necessarily LIKE SFC being in the financial position it is in, doing what it has to do, which probably isn't a million miles from Matty's position (or yours). All I am saying is that the situation is how it is, and there is no point dreaming about "what-if" it was different. In the context of the situation, I think that everyone at the club is doing the best they can, and trying to improve. The football is sometimes very good, sometimes naive, but is improving, and I see neither cause to panic nor value in panicking at this fairly early stage in the season, i.e. less than half-way through. Fans have two choices, I think - either accept reality and get behind the team and coach, and stop undermining them with negativity, or tip us closer to the edge of oblivion by whingeing that they wish reality was nicer and/or by staying away. You make your choice, I'll make mine.

John this is one of your fair minded post, and that I can respect. Though I am sure that it was you who implied that because Jan played in a worl cup, makes him experiance enough to take Saints forword.

You also claim that I am trying to tell you what to think. No I am not. You are telling me what you think through reading your post, simple as.

John we are both Saints fans, and you have to ask yourself if everything was hunky doorey, then why the hell is the fans so divided?

Lastly I have never said what if, and I have some sense not to wallow in it, as it gets you no where. Though I have tried unsuccessfully with you to point out the past has got us here for all the reasons I mention and more, and I, Matt and many Saints fans do have genuine fears for the future of our club. Nothing is changing here from one season to the next. Nothing is actually showing us now here we go. You/we will most likely be in this same stituation again next season and so on, unless something changes at the top, and say enough is enough, time to put the respect, pride and smiles back on Southampton people.

I also respect your dogged determination to support this situtation to the bitter end. Though as I pointed out above, where the hell is the end, as all frustrated fans only keep seeing the goal post constantly moving. John you fail to acknowleage that I and other whingers as you like to condescendly like to call us, all want this gamble to work for our love of Southampton F.C. The only difference is we will ask question, we are not so easly guided this way and that season after season. We have are own oppions too, and do not see it completely in the same manner you are trying to do. Once again we can't defend and we can't score, and you get nil points for patches of pretty football. Why the hell dose the Saints web page put up how respected we are getting by others all the time. They want you to belief it. They to date put comments from two managers praise our football and both took ALL THREE POINTS OFF SAINTS. Now Matt voices concern they put comments up from Theo, how desperate is that. He left us for the money and the glory, and it is so easy to talk fondly of a another team when he not affected by our religation fight!

"Saint" - I think we just have to agree to differ. Just one small point from the end of your note - if its ok for the people who want to slag the club off to misquote "Harry" Bassett to make it sound as if he was supporting their view of the chairman, how can it POSSIBLY be wrong for the official website (which you can reasonably expect to be trying to put the best face on things for the club) to QUOTE what Theo said in an ARSENAL magazine. Presumably not even the most paranoid amongst us believes that the mythical RL PR machine stretches THAT far?

John of Bassett wrote:
"Saint" - I think we just have to agree to differ. Just one small point from the end of your note - if its ok for the people who want to slag the club off to misquote "Harry" Bassett to make it sound as if he was supporting their view of the chairman, how can it POSSIBLY be wrong for the official website (which you can reasonably expect to be trying to put the best face on things for the club) to QUOTE what Theo said in an ARSENAL magazine. Presumably not even the most paranoid amongst us believes that the mythical RL PR machine stretches THAT far?

Please.....

John you defend Lowe too much. I deliberately did not mention Lowe PR machine, and you fell for it and assume I did, perdictable. You'r so funny at times.

John who runs the Saints website. Who says what goes on it and what dose not. Is it not a sight which can be used to promote things, of cause it is. So what if it in an Arsenal mag, they still found and used it! They found because it's in a football world and that is supposingly their line of bussiness. For cry out loud, if Theo said we was crap would they put it in there...no! Ask yourself why has there been quotes on three diferent teams saying nice things about our football recently, why now and not before? Other nice things have been said. It's because they want you to belief it is working, even though the results are clearly not..FACT! Say it enough times then it must be so? Two managers praise us, and they put it on our sight, this has never happen before. Best still John, these guys praised us, yet still took ALL the points, and we got none!

"Saint" - dream on!

John of Bassett wrote:
"Saint" - dream on!

?

Who dreaming here John?